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Day One
Dec 16, 2013 17:54:19 GMT -5
Post by Sister Coyote on Dec 16, 2013 17:54:19 GMT -5
For the moment, to avoid accidentally getting a penalty because of absentmindedness and holiday stress:
<vote> No Lynch </vote>
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Day One
Dec 16, 2013 17:55:24 GMT -5
Post by Sister Coyote on Dec 16, 2013 17:55:24 GMT -5
Sigh.
<font color="blue"><b>Vote: No Lynch</b></font>
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Day One
Dec 16, 2013 17:55:49 GMT -5
Post by Sister Coyote on Dec 16, 2013 17:55:49 GMT -5
VB code, not HTML. VB code, not HTML.
Vote: No Lynch
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Day One
Dec 16, 2013 18:02:10 GMT -5
Post by Captain Klutz on Dec 16, 2013 18:02:10 GMT -5
Meanwhile, I'd like to talk a bit about the bidding. It seems to me that pretty much any substantive bidding, except on the kills (more to come on that), is bad for us. Every single extra Town death that results from the auction hurts us a lot - two or three of them will pretty much swing the game. If the Scum don't care about actually getting powers, they can bid on them strategically to ensure that anyone who does get them runs a risk of death. We must be very careful about how we bid. The Obfuscate power is sort of interesting, in that I'm not sure it's all that important to bid on. Its very existence serves the same purpose as using it would - creating doubt about the accuracy of any given investigation. The killing power, though, is really troublesome. We cannot bid on it just to keep it out of Scum hands, because bidding requires using the power. Thus any Town player successfully bidding on the kill is going to be shooting (early on, anyway) blindly and risking their own death in doing it. Thus each Town player takes an enormous risk by making a substantial bid on the kill, since it could easily result it two Town deaths plus the Scum kill in a single Night; let that happen even once, and we're in deep trouble. On the other hand, we cannot simply abandon the extra kill to the Scum, since Scum with two kills per Night will decimate us very quickly. I am not sure how to handle this one, and think some general discussion might be helpful. Yes, the kill power is likely to cause a lot of grief - even if Town wins it, it is still quite likely to hit Town. But leaving it for the Scum just guarantees 2 Town kills per Night. We need to avoid competitive bidding, as that just pushes up the price paid. Note that for the investigative powers, it doesn't matter much who wins them - even if Scum win them, they will still need to report results. Scum have the big advantage of being able to coordinate their bids to avoid competing with each other. For example, only 1 scum will bid for Obfuscate, 1 for Kill and 1 for Block. We can't really do a similar thing in this thread, as that just allows the Scum to better coordinate and target their actions. So all I can suggest is that we don't get too carried away in our bidding. Day 2 will give us lots of information, with kills, bid amounts and investigative results. Then we may have a better feel for how to handle things.
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Day One
Dec 16, 2013 19:06:48 GMT -5
Post by Captain Klutz on Dec 16, 2013 19:06:48 GMT -5
Unvote storyteller0910
There were several not very serious votes early on, including this one. So I'm now removing it.
Vote: Chameleon, for voting for the joke voters.
However, Chameleon is at least playing and actually has the most posts so far. So those of you have not said much yet, please let us know your thoughts.
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Day One
Dec 16, 2013 19:18:23 GMT -5
Post by Sister Coyote on Dec 16, 2013 19:18:23 GMT -5
We need to avoid competitive bidding, as that just pushes up the price paid. Note that for the investigative powers, it doesn't matter much who wins them - even if Scum win them, they will still need to report results. Scum have the big advantage of being able to coordinate their bids to avoid competing with each other. For example, only 1 scum will bid for Obfuscate, 1 for Kill and 1 for Block. We can't really do a similar thing in this thread, as that just allows the Scum to better coordinate and target their actions. You're contradicting yourself here. Either we avoid competitive bidding, which suggests Town be up front and open about what they're bidding on, or we can't coordinate. Also, why would Scum need to report results if they won the Investigative power, unless the rest of us know that said Scumbag bid on and won that investigative power? How does that even work? Color me deeply skeptical.
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Day One
Dec 16, 2013 19:43:16 GMT -5
Post by Captain Klutz on Dec 16, 2013 19:43:16 GMT -5
We need to avoid competitive bidding, as that just pushes up the price paid. Note that for the investigative powers, it doesn't matter much who wins them - even if Scum win them, they will still need to report results. Scum have the big advantage of being able to coordinate their bids to avoid competing with each other. For example, only 1 scum will bid for Obfuscate, 1 for Kill and 1 for Block. We can't really do a similar thing in this thread, as that just allows the Scum to better coordinate and target their actions. You're contradicting yourself here. Either we avoid competitive bidding, which suggests Town be up front and open about what they're bidding on, or we can't coordinate. Also, why would Scum need to report results if they won the Investigative power, unless the rest of us know that said Scumbag bid on and won that investigative power? How does that even work? Color me deeply skeptical. Scum can either keep quiet, in which case we know that scum won that bid, or they can act Townie and report their results (either real or fake). You're right that they don't have to report results. And by "avoid competitive bidding", I mean that we should not go overboard in trying to win various abilities.
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Day One
Dec 16, 2013 20:31:17 GMT -5
Post by Chameleon on Dec 16, 2013 20:31:17 GMT -5
Vote: Chameleon I thought her votes on the joke voters was a little too forced, like a scum trying a little too hard, but this post above is too much. Wishy-washy and cuddling Bill and Jan both. She says she agrees with Bill, but then she doesn't really. She thinks Jan might be scum, but then she doesn't. Hey, what's wrong with a good cuddle! ;-) Nothing! Says me
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Day One
Dec 16, 2013 20:35:01 GMT -5
Post by Chameleon on Dec 16, 2013 20:35:01 GMT -5
Unvote storyteller0910There were several not very serious votes early on, including this one. So I'm now removing it. Vote: Chameleon, for voting for the joke voters. However, Chameleon is at least playing and actually has the most posts so far. So those of you have not said much yet, please let us know your thoughts. Seriously? So it's okay to vote for someone as a total joke but not to vote for someone who's votes are unjustified (jokes for example)? At least my votes were based on *something*.
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Day One
Dec 16, 2013 20:58:21 GMT -5
Post by swammerdami on Dec 16, 2013 20:58:21 GMT -5
Based solely on vague feelings: Unvote: silverjanVote: ChameleonIt will be interesting to see how the powers and bidding play out. I think Watcher/Tracker will always reveal results; the players they name may then need to reveal which Power they used. Town is likely to win bids on Investigate, Track, Watch. Scum is likely to win Obfuscate. Hence these reveal-cycles may give good clues. It might be good to agree on maximum bids for the powers; anyone paying more than the max is Scum. (If the price is maximum, winner might be Scum.) Of course, all the inferences depend on the reveal-cycles which may involve lying. Kill is the most interesting power. A Townie who is, say, 40% sure some player is Scum might bid a large fraction of 40 (25 or so?), but only if he doesn't think he can convince Town to Lynch and save the Vig-bid cost. Scum's Kill-bid will depend on their guessing what Townie Vig's target would be.
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Day One
Dec 16, 2013 21:08:16 GMT -5
Post by Chameleon on Dec 16, 2013 21:08:16 GMT -5
Wow, I guess I just shouldn't try playing at all.
When I die just remember that it's likely at least one of the players voting for me did so because they *knew* I was Town.
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Day One
Dec 16, 2013 21:10:26 GMT -5
Post by Chameleon on Dec 16, 2013 21:10:26 GMT -5
My bet is on Texcat.
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Day One
Dec 16, 2013 21:16:20 GMT -5
Post by Chameleon on Dec 16, 2013 21:16:20 GMT -5
Actually scratch that - more likely to be a bandwagon jumper. Crap, now I may have to unvote Texcat, but I don't want to because they appear to be playing twister with what I said. But I'm inclined to think Scum wouldn't be so brazen.
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Day One
Dec 16, 2013 21:19:46 GMT -5
Post by Chameleon on Dec 16, 2013 21:19:46 GMT -5
Vote: Chameleon, for voting for the joke voters. However, Chameleon is at least playing and actually has the most posts so far. So those of you have not said much yet, please let us know your thoughts. This seems more interesting to me now. Vote for me along with the bandwagon, and then say something nice so you don't seem Scummy. It's kind of like a killer cuddle.
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Day One
Dec 16, 2013 23:41:44 GMT -5
Post by swammerdami on Dec 16, 2013 23:41:44 GMT -5
Wow, I guess I just shouldn't try playing at all. When I die just remember that it's likely at least one of the players voting for me did so because they *knew* I was Town. Don't get upset about being voted, especially on Day 1 when Players feel compelled to vote, even for the skimpiest of reasons. But is it really true that Scum are likely to help with a Day 1 bandwagon? My memory is very poor, but I'm not sure the Day 1 vote is ever of much use in finding Scum. Since the Night 1 results in this game will give us much more information than in a typical game, we will be better informed on Day 2 than usual. This game might have a rule-set where No Lynch actually is our best Day 1 strategy. (Probably not; anyway I don't think No Lynch is going to happen.)
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Day One
Dec 17, 2013 0:26:36 GMT -5
Post by Captain Klutz on Dec 17, 2013 0:26:36 GMT -5
I'm not all that happy with my Chameleon vote, as it's a bit like "lynch the loud".
Looking at the low volume posters:
texcat 2 posts, one with a joke vote, one with a more serious vote
Colby11 2 posts, including a vote
gnarlycharlie 2 posts, with content and a vote
storyteller0910 2 posts, with content but no vote
patricia 3 posts, including a vote (but one of the posts was a "oops, I edited")
Meeko 3 posts and a vote. But not much game content
guiri 3 posts, with a joke vote
Of these, the least contribution is from
Vote: patricia Vote: Meeko
Oh, and Unvote: Chameleon
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Day One
Dec 17, 2013 1:38:45 GMT -5
Post by Silver Jan on Dec 17, 2013 1:38:45 GMT -5
Wow, I guess I just shouldn't try playing at all. When I die just remember that it's likely at least one of the players voting for me did so because they *knew* I was Town. I understand how you feel. Usually it's the higher posters that get lynched on D1 and scum just seem to slide by and get away with it. I don't know how Town will ever be able to co-ordinate their bids because scum will be watching everything about bidding very closely, even if there is a general consensus that Town shouldn't bid over say 30, scum will have to bid above that because they don't want the powers in Towns hands. I would think that "Obfuscate" is a power that scum would like to have though so maybe some bidding on that one would be a good idea. The investagative power is one that Town would most likely want in my opinion because scum already know who Town is but on the other hand scum could bid on that just to keep it out of Towns hands. I know, not very constructive but there doesn't seem to be a safe way to get around bidding, damned if you do, damned if you don't type of thing.
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Colby11
Administrator
Creator of Hell's Kitchen Mafia
Posts: 1,193
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Day One
Dec 17, 2013 2:08:20 GMT -5
Post by Colby11 on Dec 17, 2013 2:08:20 GMT -5
My thoughts about voting- I think dying while getting a power is a risk, but necessary. I think the bidding will be very interesting, to be honest.
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Meeko
FGM
I raccoon it's time to play Mafia
Posts: 2,474
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Day One
Dec 17, 2013 8:40:38 GMT -5
Post by Meeko on Dec 17, 2013 8:40:38 GMT -5
I'm not all that happy with my Chameleon vote, as it's a bit like "lynch the loud". Looking at the low volume posters: texcat 2 posts, one with a joke vote, one with a more serious vote Colby11 2 posts, including a vote gnarlycharlie 2 posts, with content and a vote storyteller0910 2 posts, with content but no vote patricia 3 posts, including a vote (but one of the posts was a "oops, I edited") Meeko 3 posts and a vote. But not much game content guiri 3 posts, with a joke vote Of these, the least contribution is from Vote: patricia Vote: Meeko Oh, and []Unvote: Chameleon I don't know how to defend against a "Meeko isn't participating" claim, when your own numbers have me participating more than others.
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Day One
Dec 17, 2013 9:03:06 GMT -5
Post by Captain Klutz on Dec 17, 2013 9:03:06 GMT -5
I don't know how to defend against a "Meeko isn't participating" claim, when your own numbers have me participating more than others. Notice that I said the least contribution, not the least participation. So feel free to contribute. For example, what is your opinion on the bidding process, or how to handle the pro Scum abilities?
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Meeko
FGM
I raccoon it's time to play Mafia
Posts: 2,474
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Day One
Dec 17, 2013 9:29:15 GMT -5
Post by Meeko on Dec 17, 2013 9:29:15 GMT -5
I don't know how to defend against a "Meeko isn't participating" claim, when your own numbers have me participating more than others. Notice that I said the least contribution, not the least participation. So feel free to contribute. For example, what is your opinion on the bidding process, or how to handle the pro Scum abilities? I'm torn on the bidding. I like the idea, but I think the entire "game" as such (what makes this game different from others) is in the clause that the chance of detach among the winner reverts to the second place bid. There are variations on this theme, but I don't know that much game theory to actually make headway in it. The other concern I have, is what is D2 going to look like? We are all vanilla, bidding on powers, that are one shots. Other games, the powers aren't up for the highest bidder (quite literally) and people have kept notes on who does what when. Colonel Mustard always has the candlestick, in the library, you know? If he changes to the lead pipe mid game, it's going to increase the difficulty.
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Day One
Dec 17, 2013 9:52:54 GMT -5
Post by BillMc on Dec 17, 2013 9:52:54 GMT -5
Vote: No lynch placeholder in case I'm not back in time to review the day/vote
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Day One
Dec 17, 2013 10:17:26 GMT -5
Post by Captain Klutz on Dec 17, 2013 10:17:26 GMT -5
I've had a thought as to how to report the Night actions:
At the start of the Day, everyone should state whether or not they did anything during the Night. Not say what they did, or who it was done to, just "I did something last Night" or "I did nothing last Night". So if Scum want to lie then that improves their chances of being caught by the watcher or tracker.
It poses a particular problem for the Scum that does the Night kill - do they lie about being busy or pretend to have won one of the actions. Either way, they will be forced to lie.
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Day One
Dec 17, 2013 10:21:48 GMT -5
Post by Chameleon on Dec 17, 2013 10:21:48 GMT -5
Does anyone know *when* the player dies if random.org decides a high bidding player will die? Will they have a chance to reveal their findings (from an investigation for example) before they die or do they die overnight? I'm not sure if I missed something in the rules about that - I will send a question to the mod and let you know if no one else has the answer.
Meeko's point about the percentage chance of a high bidder dying being the 2nd highest bid as opposed to the winning bid is a great one that I hadn't thought of. It makes it somewhat less risky to bid high - for example, if someone bids 50 on a power and the 2nd place bid is only 10 then the winner only has a 10% chance of dying and not 50%. Do I have that right?
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Day One
Dec 17, 2013 10:46:32 GMT -5
Post by Chameleon on Dec 17, 2013 10:46:32 GMT -5
I feel like I would rather have no one die on D1 and wait until D2 when we have more information. The nights are short so the wait isn't that long.
Unvote: All
Vote: No Lynch
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Day One
Dec 17, 2013 11:11:41 GMT -5
Post by Sister Coyote on Dec 17, 2013 11:11:41 GMT -5
I'm not one to stifle discussion, but I think it's up to individual players as to whether or not they want to make claims or say if they "did" anything. Otherwise, that's giving Scum too much leeway to a) lie and b) be alert to those who they know are willing to take the bidding risk.
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Day One
Dec 17, 2013 12:03:27 GMT -5
Post by storyteller0910 on Dec 17, 2013 12:03:27 GMT -5
I'm not one to stifle discussion, but I think it's up to individual players as to whether or not they want to make claims or say if they "did" anything. Otherwise, that's giving Scum too much leeway to a) lie and b) be alert to those who they know are willing to take the bidding risk. I can think of limited pro-Town reasons for anyone to conceal most actions. For example: since there is no dedicated investigator to put at risk, every successful investigative result should be reported, every time, without fail. Watchers and trackers should also report their results, every time. If I win a "tracker" bid and track Pleonast, and see that he did something, this should be reported. It gives no new information to the Scum - since Pleonast could just as easily do nothing the following Night - but gives useful information to the Town and forces Pleonast to account for himself. If he is Town, this should be advantagous as above ("yes, I acted - I investigated Hal Briston, and he's Town"). If he's Scum, he will either have to give us true information (useful), or lie - and risk being caught in said lie in innumerable ways. "Giving Scum leeway to lie" doesn't make sense as a reason not to do something. We want Scum to lie! A Scum lie is one of our best tools; it'll sit forever on the record, just waiting for a bit of information to explode it. There are a few places where a Townie might want to keep quiet, but they are few and far between. Your post pings me. It's using an ostensibly inoffensive and pro-Town statement ('it's up to individual players as to whether or not they want to make claims, etc') to mitigate against what would be a powerfully anti-Scum behavior (reveals across the board as the general rule, with very limited situational exceptions). vote Sister Coyote
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Day One
Dec 17, 2013 12:06:39 GMT -5
Post by storyteller0910 on Dec 17, 2013 12:06:39 GMT -5
Oh - and I'm just going to say it right now, because my opinion on this is not popular but I want to express it early: I think the business of counting posts and voting for people on the basis of how often they've posted is a problematic thing. I have never seen in all the games I've played a consistent tendency for Scum to reside at the bottom of those lists - sometimes they do, but at no higher a rate than they place anywhere else on the list.
I except outright nonparticipants from this, as they will have to be dealt with in this particular game lest they kill us with silence.
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Day One
Dec 17, 2013 12:25:40 GMT -5
Post by Sister Coyote on Dec 17, 2013 12:25:40 GMT -5
Actually, story, and I apologize because this is a little meta: I'm not saying Town should hold back on everything -- I'm saying there may be reasons a particular Town player wouldn't want to post their results. Some of us like to play things either close to our vests rather than right out in the open, whether or not we're Town or Scum.
So making it "anti Town" not to say one has bid on/received a particular action isn't particularly productive, IMO.
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Day One
Dec 17, 2013 12:26:48 GMT -5
Post by Sister Coyote on Dec 17, 2013 12:26:48 GMT -5
Oh - and I'm just going to say it right now, because my opinion on this is not popular but I want to express it early: I think the business of counting posts and voting for people on the basis of how often they've posted is a problematic thing. I have never seen in all the games I've played a consistent tendency for Scum to reside at the bottom of those lists - sometimes they do, but at no higher a rate than they place anywhere else on the list. I except outright nonparticipants from this, as they will have to be dealt with in this particular game lest they kill us with silence. I find it positively disturbing that I agree with you. But then, I usually find it positively disturbing when I agree with you. Or when you agree with me.
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