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Day Two
Nov 27, 2007 19:35:06 GMT -5
Post by NAF1138 on Nov 27, 2007 19:35:06 GMT -5
Dio last logged in yesterday, but the last time he posted was on the 24th.
Food for thought.
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Death By Irony
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Day Two
Nov 27, 2007 19:46:44 GMT -5
Post by Death By Irony on Nov 27, 2007 19:46:44 GMT -5
...or maybe he's just too busy IRL to play? That happens too, y'know.
(My stance on that kind of post is that if you have information that you feel is relevant now, post now. If you think it's better saved for later, save it. If you say "I've got a magic bag" and then fail to deliver, it leaves us hanging--pun intended.)
And I don't get the people voting Pleonast. Yeah, been he's holding onto a Bad Idea (tm) really long, but maybe he honestly thinks it's a good one. The posts against him feel like they're following the "lynch Pleonast for information" school of scumhunting.
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Parzival
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Day Two
Nov 27, 2007 21:20:53 GMT -5
Post by Parzival on Nov 27, 2007 21:20:53 GMT -5
I guess we could have asked zuma to do himself, but there weren't many posts to go through. It's late in the Day, but better late than never.
1.209 - Missed the opening (and the Governor vote). Says the people who get the most scrutiny Day 1 are usually townies.
1.212 - votes Zeriel. Mentions almost no one has a good reason to vote on Day 1.
1.215 - Fluff about Pleo as his boyfriend.
1.218 - Mentions that he failed to vote for Gov.
1.252 - Guesses there are at least 5 or 6 scum, believes "no way" there is only 4.
1.256 - Doesn't like the attacks on Pleonast. Unvotes zeriel, votes Roosh.
1.258 et seq. - Drunk posting. Asks to be replaced, messes with his votes, finally ends up back on Roosh.
1.265 - Apologizes; mentions being drunk.
1.270 - Fluff about kissing Pleo.
1.286 - Asked about slips, specifically drainbead in Asylum Lane.
1.291 - Says Day 1 votes are often lame. Again comes out against Day 1 pile-ons on people with bad plans. Also dislikes lack of votes.
1.295 - asks Cookies if she doubts his drunkenness, and when she's going to vote.
1.298 - unvotes Roosh, votes [/b]Kassia[/b] (for third vote & attacking Pleonast).
1.303 - Says the last post made no sense to him.
1.304 - Asks EoB when she's going to vote.
I'm not adding any overall summary since I think it's subjective, and better to just have a digest if someone needs it. I also think it is more revealing to look at how people respond to a person's posts (especially a confirmed townie). That's probably even more subjective, but also harder to do as easily as finding posts.
I'm not sure if Day 1 will reveal scum to be trying to bring colonists into their trust, but that's what I'll be looking for for a vote.
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Day Two
Nov 27, 2007 23:57:10 GMT -5
Post by Zeriel on Nov 27, 2007 23:57:10 GMT -5
Hey, guys. I'm reading it as often as I can, but real life is chewing my ass off. =(
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RoOsh
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Day Two
Nov 28, 2007 3:11:54 GMT -5
Post by RoOsh on Nov 28, 2007 3:11:54 GMT -5
That pun was terrible, Dotchan. TERRIBLE. And well, My life schedule sucks, but I'm still here checking in (thanks for the list of posts on Zuma), Parzival. I see you haven't taken my suggestion, Dotchan, and tried to be helpful in collecting up all the CatinaSuit posts.... Chose rather just to fluffy defend yourself and make bad puns. I'm really disappointed so far. There's been NOTHING. No discussion it feels like. AGAIN, It's gonna be another vote that comes down to the last 24 hours, and we're gonna have ANOTHER person pull a stunt like Sinjin, and then we're gonna go into the Night.... I really really dislike that idea, and I'm kinda bummed about it. Dio's failure to appear, with the knowledge that's he's CHECKED the boards within 24 hours, but failed to post in 4 days... Makes me think he's a lurker. And I'm starting to think that we should get rid of the Lurkers, because people who aren't posting aren't contributing. I'm no touchy-feely person when it comes to Mafia. I want to WIN, dammit! People who aren't helping the Town in some way are HURTING the town then. And even if you're a goddamn townie, your being silent is fucking useless, it's just making it easier to hand the game over to scum. People who aren't trying to WIN this game for the Town deserve the boot. I don't think lynching them is the best way, but if there's a better idea (other than my "Elect them Governor" I'd like to hear it.) I've not had the time to look over the Day 1 stuff in depth because this week and the next week are terrible for me, and so i'm stuck posting only 1-2 posts every 12-24 hours. And yet there are some people who've only posted ONCE in the last 2-3 days. That's fucking irritating! Right now, I actually am wondering what'd happen if Pleonast dies... will everyone stay fucking silent on Day 3? If that's the case... then what. the. hell? What kinda shit town is this? Where's the fire? Where's the desire to win? We need to fucking get rid of the scum, and sitting on our asses and cracking wise (Yes, cracking wise) doesn't help anyone but the scum. Scum can easily fall off the radar if There's lot of people not posting. We need you people to get off your asses and start talking, or else we're just waiting in line to hand this game off to the Scum. We CAN'T Just wait for the Scum to slip up! So where is the chatter? When there are DEAD people who have equivalent posts to living players into the 3rd day of a Day it's NOT a good sign. I don't want another last min. Scramble, but I have a feeling that's what's going to freaking happen again! So fucking shape up people! WHERE THE HELL Are You? If this keeps up, I may be in favor of just voting for the Lurking people... and Dio will be the first one on that List.
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Day Two
Nov 28, 2007 5:26:17 GMT -5
Post by Tragic on Nov 28, 2007 5:26:17 GMT -5
All I know is that atarus had a good point about the circular discussion here. We gotta break free. Gotta expand our circle going on here. Pleonast damn looks suspicious but I highly doubt if he were scum that he would be the only one. Or it simply could be that the scum are trying to focus on him, or it simply could be because we lynched a townie last time and we're over analyzing to compensate. I don't know.. I'm not going to focus on that..
Pleonast, Diomedes, Kassia, Death by Irony, and mhaye.
At the offset of this Day Pleonast made his rather.. interesting.. commentary post about others in the game. In that post he highlighted information on: Kassia (Day2 Target), Diggitcamera, Captain Klutz, mhaye (Day2 Target), Hal Birston, and atarus. And originally he votes for mhaye. Atarus, another suspicion of Pleonast ends up voting for mhaye too. And if those two can agree on it I'm wondering why we haven't launched off in that direction more thoroughly yet.
He's made 3 posts (for Day 2), despite coming up on multiple lists, to answer only 1 of the points brought up against him (D2.99) referencing atarus's original question regarding the Governor debate. There were plenty of other points brought up against him by Pleonast and atarus but he seemed to either (a) ignore them or (b) skip over them. I'd really like to hear more from him.
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Day Two
Nov 28, 2007 7:52:09 GMT -5
Post by Captain Klutz on Nov 28, 2007 7:52:09 GMT -5
One concern I have with Pleo's claimed ability:
He says that his bomb is certain to kill its target. This means that it will get past any replicant's "resistance", but how useful is this, really? I mean, if there was someone we thought was a scum Replicant we would simply lynch them. Unless one of the Replicants has a special ability to withstand electric shocks, but that's a bit unlikely (can you imagine a mafia game with unlynchable scum??)
Now, imagine that Pleo is scum with the special ability to bomb one player. Then the natural town role to false claim is that of a one shot vigilante that uses a bomb. My concern is that, since it is certain to kill, this bomb would be particularly powerful in scum's hands. For example, a Doctor's protection will be ineffective. Or it could be used to kill a resurrected pro town replicant. Hmmm, this sounds a bit too powerful and unbalancing, so that's one argument against it, but it's something I am certainly going to keep in mind.
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Day Two
Nov 28, 2007 10:23:35 GMT -5
Post by Pleonast on Nov 28, 2007 10:23:35 GMT -5
Since Diomedes seems to be on everyone's lists, I thought I'd take another look at his Day One record. - 180: Apologizes for missing Governor election. Calls my Governor plan a scum tell and votes for me.
- 197: Says bad strategy is a capital offense.
- 199: Favors electrocuting any Governor who interferes with the electrocution process. Dislikes atarus' modified Governor plan because it placing the burden of proof on a vanilla Colonist is too harsh. Wants to stop scummy thinking, not open thinking.
- 200: Says Day One votes aren't as important as Day One strategizing.
- 219: Describes advantage of confirmed Colonist, especially self-protecting, in Governor's office at end game.
- 234: Says self-preservation is natural part of the game.
- 269: Happy with his vote on me.
- 280: Encourages players to vote for me.
- 313: Accuses me of sloppy logic in my vote.
- 331: Further explanation of why my logic is sloppy.
- 346: Reconsiders his vote after my role claim. zuma v1 tops his list.
- 351: votes zuma v1
- 397: Doubts NAF's role claim.
- 402: Thinks one of me and NAF is lying. Votes NAF.
- 409: Thinks both role claims are unlikely.
- 416: Wants to see paraphrased role claim.
- 454: Says power to definitely kill Colonists, but not always kill Replicants is anti-Colony.
- 491: Happy to electrocute me or NAF. Switches vote to me. The circle is now complete.
No use me scoring specific points, because I doubt anyone will take them seriously. Dio pushed for my electrocution from the get-go. Even my role claim was only a temporary deterrent. If he's a Replicant, he's certainly being aggressive about it. But I think Colonists are more likely to single-mindedly attack someone. His disappearance on Day Two is probably due to real life circumstance. I don't see Dio backing down because of any heat he's received. While I'd rather see him fry than myself, I wouldn't vote for him. The Colony needs vocal players. The Colony needs to consider more alternatives for electrocution. Time is running out.
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Day Two
Nov 28, 2007 11:33:58 GMT -5
Post by storyteller0910 on Nov 28, 2007 11:33:58 GMT -5
Well, this is getting downright depressing in here.
Vote count remains as it was at 5:00PM yesterday; Day to end in approximately 29 hours and 20 minutes.
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Parzival
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Day Two
Nov 28, 2007 11:46:20 GMT -5
Post by Parzival on Nov 28, 2007 11:46:20 GMT -5
Well, crap. I'm pretty positive I missed one of zuma's posts - at least his last one, and maybe one before that. I must have missed copying it since I know I wrote it down - it was about his thoughts on NAF and Pleo.
Speaking of zuma, he was reincarnated, right? Has he posted at all Today?
I probably have just enough time to find zuma's post this morning, but I want to see something of value soon.
So since we're all waiting - Diomedes, give us something, anything within the next day.
vote Diomedes.
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Parzival
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Day Two
Nov 28, 2007 11:54:39 GMT -5
Post by Parzival on Nov 28, 2007 11:54:39 GMT -5
Okay, I just missed zuma 1.0's last post, though it did have a fair bit of content. Link to post #464.Summary - Says atarus summed up his beliefs. Feels Day 1 pile-ons never work, and third-vote as a scum tell can be useful (if only on new players). Talks about the role claims : Pleo's power is of little use and probably shouldn't use it soon. NAF is quite powerful, potentially, but ripe to be re-examined later. If scum he's likely only bought himself a few days.
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Day Two
Nov 28, 2007 12:17:03 GMT -5
Post by NAF1138 on Nov 28, 2007 12:17:03 GMT -5
I am good with my vote, but would be fine with switching to Dio if that is the direction the town is leaning.
I am going to stay quiet-ish for a while in hopes of not distracting the town with my blabber and in hopes of actually getting some work done at work. But I will be watching. If anything new comes up (fingers crossed that it will) I will be around.
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Day Two
Nov 28, 2007 12:25:00 GMT -5
Post by Pollux Oil on Nov 28, 2007 12:25:00 GMT -5
Zuma and Yattara have yet to post any input for toDay.
Full post count list for toDay:
Rugger, Santo 20 NAF1138 12 Pleonast 11 ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies 9 storyteller0910 9 RoOsh 9 Tragic 8 drainbead 8 episodeofblonde 7 Death by Irony 5 Parzival 5 sinjin 4 kassia 4 mhaye 3 Captain Klutz 3 zeriel 3 diggitcamara 3 atarus 3 Kat 2 Diomedes 1 CatInASuit 1 Hal Briston 1 hockeymonkey 1 (zuma 0) (Yattara 0)
---
At this point, it is beneficial for the scum to lurk and not post anything, since the town isn't either. They'll be able to control or at least heavily influence a last-minute vote swing during the final hours.
I want to have posted more than 3 (4) times but there just isn't anything else for me to add at this point.
If there is a Vig, and they want to help the town, I might go so far as to suggest that they target somebody that isn't helping the discussion toNight. More discussion and more posts = better for the town. The more discussion there is, the easier it is for a slip to occur. So if the Vig goes after somebody like our Governor, or NAF or Roosh (or Pleonast if he survives) we'll really lose our strongest weapon.
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Merestil Haye
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Day Two
Nov 28, 2007 14:53:38 GMT -5
Post by Merestil Haye on Nov 28, 2007 14:53:38 GMT -5
He's made 3 posts (for Day 2), despite coming up on multiple lists, to answer only 1 of the points brought up against him (D2.99) referencing atarus's original question regarding the Governor debate. There were plenty of other points brought up against him by Pleonast and atarus but he seemed to either (a) ignore them or (b) skip over them. I'd really like to hear more from him. You missed D2.103. Given that Atarus voted for me on Day 1 for what he characterised as raising old disputes unnecessarily, I chose not to rehash the issues at length lest I be accused of it again. I haven't placed a vote yet Today because I haven't seen any reason to. Nothing new has come out of the events of Night or Day to give me any pointer of suspicion. My no. 2 suspect is in his grave, cleared by someone who took a potshot at him. My No. 1 suspect is still alive and kicking, so if nothing changes my mind in the next few hours I'll be voting as I did Yesterday.
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Day Two
Nov 28, 2007 15:43:51 GMT -5
Post by sinjin on Nov 28, 2007 15:43:51 GMT -5
atarus list:
Please note that Hal has only posted twice since the game began. Once on Nov. 16 where he voted for NAF before we had even elected a Gov:
Then 10 days later on Nov. 26:
Which is essentially a non-post since there has been no follow-up.
And Dio's single post toDay is:
Is this game playable with 4/21 posters mia?
Back in a bit with my thoughts on what to do if we continue on.
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RoOsh
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Day Two
Nov 28, 2007 15:51:01 GMT -5
Post by RoOsh on Nov 28, 2007 15:51:01 GMT -5
One concern I have with Pleo's claimed ability: Now, imagine that Pleo is scum with the special ability to bomb one player. Then the natural town role to false claim is that of a one shot vigilante that uses a bomb. My concern is that, since it is certain to kill, this bomb would be particularly powerful in scum's hands. For example, a Doctor's protection will be ineffective. Or it could be used to kill a resurrected pro town replicant. Hmmm, this sounds a bit too powerful and unbalancing, so that's one argument against it, but it's something I am certainly going to keep in mind. This is what I dislike about Pleo's roleclaim. If scum have abilities this time around (and the general consensus is they probably do), then Pleo's claim pretty much allowed him to just buy time to do whatever his Night actions are. This to me is worrisome, because he might be doing crazy stuff in the night, and we're just going to be sitting ducks idly waiting for a Bomb that might not ever occur OR he could be a mad bomber simply bombing ALL of us at night, and he has the threat that as long as he's alive he won't blow One of us up. Right now my greatest worry is that he's a MAD Bomber type of Role, and doesn't just have ONE bomb but instead is just planting them on all of us. It's a paranoid thought, but it's one that's been stuck in my head (ever since I first heard of the bomber role, I really like the concept, but this one worries me). THAT's one of the Major issues I have with Pleo's Role Claim/ Scumminess. His Role to me does not seem Pro-Town, but rather one that is more likely to exist with its own win condition....
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Day Two
Nov 28, 2007 15:54:51 GMT -5
Post by Pleonast on Nov 28, 2007 15:54:51 GMT -5
The Colony is truly screwed if this Day is any indication of the future.
Electrocuting me or Diomedes (given his participation yesterDay) just doesn't make sense. I'm tempted to switch my vote to one of Hal Briston, Yattara or zuma v.1. Electrocuting someone for lurking isn't a great strategy, but being only on Day Two and with scant evidence, I don't think it's a terrible thing.
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Santo Rugger
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Day Two
Nov 28, 2007 16:06:07 GMT -5
Post by Santo Rugger on Nov 28, 2007 16:06:07 GMT -5
<snip> I haven't placed a vote yet Today because I haven't seen any reason to. Nothing new has come out of the events of Night or Day to give me any pointer of suspicion.<snip> So you're not going to vote Today? The Colony is truly screwed if this Day is any indication of the future.<snip> Agreed. Hopefully it's just because everybody's trying to get caught up after the long weekend.
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Day Two
Nov 28, 2007 16:28:32 GMT -5
Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Nov 28, 2007 16:28:32 GMT -5
I'm traveling on business for a couple of days, and have not had the time to get online as I thought I'd have.
The participation level is disheartening, but I doubt it is chronic. To answer Santo's question about why I've held my vote, it is largely because of the lack of discussion. I would like to spur the lurkers into action, but voting as such comes with risk. The scummiest in front of me is still Dio, and though voting for him also comes with a dose of risk, that is where my vote is going to have to go at this point.
Vote Dio
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Merestil Haye
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Day Two
Nov 28, 2007 17:40:49 GMT -5
Post by Merestil Haye on Nov 28, 2007 17:40:49 GMT -5
<snip> I haven't placed a vote yet Today because I haven't seen any reason to. Nothing new has come out of the events of Night or Day to give me any pointer of suspicion.<snip> So you're not going to vote Today? That is not supported by what I said in that post. If you read the post you will find Santo Rugger has deliberately excised the last paragraph of the post, in which I stated who I would vote for if nothing else happened. Something else just did. Governor Rugger, please explain why you edited my post in such a way as to support an allegation that I intend not to vote Today.
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Merestil Haye
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Day Two
Nov 28, 2007 17:44:06 GMT -5
Post by Merestil Haye on Nov 28, 2007 17:44:06 GMT -5
... drat.
Storyteller, would you mind employing your wondrous powers to edit my last post such as to italicise the word "not" in the first sentence of the post proper, please?
Many thanks.
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Day Two
Nov 28, 2007 17:53:42 GMT -5
Post by Drain Bead on Nov 28, 2007 17:53:42 GMT -5
I'd like some moderator action.
Story, can you prod Dio, Hal, zuma2.0, and Yattara?
I'm concerned with atarus prompting the Vig to take action on lurkers. The Vig should be killing someone who they think is scummy, not someone who they know nothing about. What if that group contains a cop, or another important power role? If they think a lurker is scummy for some reason, then go ahead and nail them, but don't kill a lurker at this point just because they're lurking. We DID just have a busy holiday weekend, after all...and while I would hope that people were back from that by now, they may be catching up with missed work and other RL obligations that were put on the back burner.
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Day Two
Nov 28, 2007 19:00:53 GMT -5
Post by NAF1138 on Nov 28, 2007 19:00:53 GMT -5
I'd like some moderator action. Story, can you prod Dio, Hal, zuma2.0, and Yattara?I'm concerned with atarus prompting the Vig to take action on lurkers. The Vig should be killing someone who they think is scummy, not someone who they know nothing about. What if that group contains a cop, or another important power role? If they think a lurker is scummy for some reason, then go ahead and nail them, but don't kill a lurker at this point just because they're lurking. We DID just have a busy holiday weekend, after all...and while I would hope that people were back from that by now, they may be catching up with missed work and other RL obligations that were put on the back burner. But is taking 5 seconds to say something too much to ask? Frankly if our power roles are in that group I am going to repeat myself and say... stop doing scummy shit like lurking. At least mhaye is posting to say he has nothing to say. We KNOW he is around. Otherwise you are activly hurting the town with your silence, and that IS scummy.
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Day Two
Nov 28, 2007 19:17:54 GMT -5
Post by zuma on Nov 28, 2007 19:17:54 GMT -5
I'm here... been busy this week. I'll be back to post and vote late tonight.
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Day Two
Nov 28, 2007 19:19:23 GMT -5
Post by NAF1138 on Nov 28, 2007 19:19:23 GMT -5
I'm here... been busy this week. I'll be back to post and vote late tonight. I have to say, my last post was surprisingly effective.
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Day Two
Nov 28, 2007 19:27:14 GMT -5
Post by sinjin on Nov 28, 2007 19:27:14 GMT -5
Ok here are my thoughts in general.
I think we are being encouraged not to speak out and not to vote in this game. I'm not sure if it's being done on purpose or by accident. Roosh in particular has come out forcefully several times about talking about "bad ideas." I found this amusing at first because I was thinking 'pot/kettle' when recalling the 'NAME' manifesto in Firefly. It is no longer amusing. Recently atarus has suggested we no longer talk about Pleo because it's taking up too much of the colony's attention. So what are we supposed to talk about. No new ideas and no talk about the primary zap candidate yesterday and today.
Zuma and NAF basically attacked a newcomer with the third on a vote thing on day one. This led me to initially vote for NAF then change my vote to zuma at days end. My vote change being predicated on power claims by NAF and Pleo and no claim or even defense by zuma. Then I was questioned and/or smudged by several players (NAF, Rugger and Roosh) because of my last minute vote for zuma. Roosh in particular has maligned my vote several times toDay. So we shouldn't vote third and we shouldn't vote last.
And for the record I would really like to hear from Roosh what he thinks I should have done at the end of Day one.
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Day Two
Nov 28, 2007 20:03:07 GMT -5
Post by zuma on Nov 28, 2007 20:03:07 GMT -5
My vote change being predicated on power claims by NAF and Pleo and no claim or even defense by zuma. OK, I am going to quickly address this right now. You thought it was a good thing to vote for zuma1 with an hour to go, when he had not role-claimed? Over someone who had a claimed power that was essentially worthless, and there being no way to determine his alignment? It's very fortunate that my previous incarnation was only vanilla. If you had done your research you'd have seen that zuma1 had not even logged in since the previous evening. I don't want this to sound like a reincarnated OMGUS, but I'd think scum would rather knock off someone without a role claim than someone with one that's not very powerful, or even slightly anti-town.
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Day Two
Nov 28, 2007 20:04:23 GMT -5
Post by zuma on Nov 28, 2007 20:04:23 GMT -5
And true to form I screwed up my quotes in the last post. Only the first line of the quoted text was sinjin The rest was me.
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Day Two
Nov 28, 2007 20:06:13 GMT -5
Post by NAF1138 on Nov 28, 2007 20:06:13 GMT -5
Ok here are my thoughts in general. I think we are being encouraged not to speak out and not to vote in this game. I'm not sure if it's being done on purpose or by accident. Roosh in particular has come out forcefully several times about talking about "bad ideas." I found this amusing at first because I was thinking 'pot/kettle' when recalling the 'NAME' manifesto in Firefly. It is no longer amusing. Recently atarus has suggested we no longer talk about Pleo because it's taking up too much of the colony's attention. So what are we supposed to talk about. No new ideas and no talk about the primary zap candidate yesterday and today. I understand where you are coming from, sinjin, but isn't that sort of behavior more or less what mafia is about? If we don't question what people are saying how do you propose we get anywhere? Only scum have anything to fear from having their ideas questioned. On the other hand, we do seem to be getting a bit tunnel vision-y in this game. That isn't any good. Zuma and NAF basically attacked a newcomer with the third on a vote thing on day one. This led me to initially vote for NAF then change my vote to zuma at days end. My vote change being predicated on power claims by NAF and Pleo and no claim or even defense by zuma. Then I was questioned and/or smudged by several players ( NAF, Rugger and Roosh) because of my last minute vote for zuma. Roosh in particular has maligned my vote several times toDay. So we shouldn't vote third and we shouldn't vote last.And for the record I would really like to hear from Roosh what he thinks I should have done at the end of Day one. I would like to call bullshit on this paragraph. Not for the facts...because the facts are true, but for the spin. It may not be fair to a new player to call them on making a rookie mistake, but does that mean we should just overlook it when it is a well proven newbie scum tell? Sorry to the new players, but that is part of learning the game. No one expects the new players to not make mistakes, but that doesn't mean then get a free pass. The second idea in the paragraph is that you were questioned about your last minute votes. Again, just because you were in a tough situation doesn't mean you shouldn't be held accountable for your actions. There were lots of good reasons to place the vote you placed, (and for what it's worth I think you did the right thing under the circumstances) but it was important to hear from you why you placed the vote, and to see how you reacted when called on it. I would like to hear what Roosh thinks you should have done also, but your defensiveness right now isn't...good.
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Day Two
Nov 28, 2007 20:15:01 GMT -5
Post by sinjin on Nov 28, 2007 20:15:01 GMT -5
zuma:
1) Yes it was hammered into me during firefly that we give the benefit of the doubt to power role claimers.
2) I did not believe that Pleo's power claimed was worthless given NAF's claim that replicants are resistant to killing.
3) I did not look up the last time you logged in because I didn't know we could do that. BTW how do we do that?
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