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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Dec 4, 2007 20:04:36 GMT -5
<snip> Why did I say that my vote history doesn't expose scum? Because it doesn't. As I said in the second part of my sentence, it exposes that I chose poorly. As I said earlier, I refuse to talk about my role as Guv with you anymore. I think I should have made this part more clear. My vote history doesn't expose scum, because I'm not scum. However, I haven't felt the need to explicitly state this. Why did you? Because people are suspecting me because of my vote history. If they're going to state one obvious side of the coin, I have no problem stating the other. And yes, I am aware that "I am not scum" statements that aren't associated with a claim are seen by some as a scum tell. All I can say, again, is "Not this time."
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Post by kassia on Dec 4, 2007 21:13:37 GMT -5
I decided to give Pleo the benefit of the doubt on Day Two and take my vote off him, ended up voting for zuma and that was a mistake. I believe I said something about going 'round and 'round about the same old stuff, and, like zeriel said, we need to either get on with lynching him or let it go and move on. I agree with drainbead - the discussion about/from Pleo is serving to distract everyone. I don't like Pleo's rating system, and I'm still not happy with the "scum less likely to vote for colonists" statements. So I'm putting my vote back on Pleonast, to put him out of his misery, hopefully get off this merry-go-round, and move on. And...well....because he voted for me. vote for Pleo
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Post by Gir! on Dec 4, 2007 21:27:59 GMT -5
Okay, I just got home and scanned over the 3 pages of posts you guys decided to torture me with.
The thing that I have the biggest problem with has already been mentioned by several others, and that's Pleonast's omission of himself from the "confirmed town" vote recipients. If you're Town, you know it and the scum know it, so why leave that data factor out of your analysis? It's pointless. Who cares if you're not confirmed to the Town? None of the now-confirmed-Townies were known to the Town at the time the scum was voting for them.
I'm hoping to have time to reread the Day tonight, but for now, vote Pleonast, until someone looks more suspicious, or Pleo says something in regards to the issue that makes sense.
I'll point out also that I find little sense in Cookie efforts to push Rugger out of participating in ties and near-ties as well, but Pleo's stuff strikes me as scummier.
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Post by zuma on Dec 4, 2007 21:48:25 GMT -5
Just a reminder regarding the rules:
If Pleo recieves 10 votes (a majority), Santo Rugger will have 6 hours to decided whether or not to issue a stay. If not, the day ends.
It may not be a huge deal, but just be aware the day may end a little early if he reaches 10 votes. I also don't like non-voting, so maybe the best thing to do is not refrain from voting if you are inclined to vote Pleo, but have Santo Rugger go ahead and issue the stay so we don't lose tomorrow's discussion if he reaches 10 votes.
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Post by zuma on Dec 4, 2007 21:49:57 GMT -5
I forgot to mention he's at 8 right now, if that wasn't obvious.
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Post by Gir! on Dec 4, 2007 21:52:18 GMT -5
story's post at the bottom of page 5 says 11 votes, not 10.
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Post by zuma on Dec 4, 2007 21:55:13 GMT -5
But we have 19 players, right? We started with 25 and 6 are dead. Looking at story's official player list, it looks like he listed Diomedes as both living and dead.
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Post by zuma on Dec 4, 2007 21:57:28 GMT -5
Storyteller: Please clarify how many votes are needed to freeze voting today[/color]
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Santo Rugger
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Post by Santo Rugger on Dec 4, 2007 22:02:31 GMT -5
I don't have any problem with that, I see no reason to end the day any earlier than we have to.
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Post by zuma on Dec 4, 2007 22:04:28 GMT -5
You may want to check in when you're signing off for the night, Santo. I guess we don't want your 6-hour clock to start ticking when you're asleep. Or not sleeping
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Post by Zeriel on Dec 4, 2007 22:05:45 GMT -5
Accountability problems my ass. I will continue to vote the higher of sinjin or roosh until one is dead then the other is dead, unless either of them change my mind or someone puts new info out there to make me suspect someone else.
Just because I can't decide between two equally suspicious people doesn't mean I'm gonna come out later and say "oh no, the coin did it not me." I stand behind every vote I make--if I vote, I'd be happy to see 'em ride the lightning. If I say they're suspicious, I'd be pretty happy to see it.
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Post by Zeriel on Dec 4, 2007 22:06:55 GMT -5
By the same token, I DON'T find Pleo to be in my top scum candidates at this time, I don't think we need to lynch him or not lynch him, I just wanna shit or get off the pot, not wander back to the pot the next day etc.
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Santo Rugger
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Post by Santo Rugger on Dec 4, 2007 22:21:11 GMT -5
Wow, and they were saying the Pleo "supporters" were closed minded!
In other news, I seriously doubt anybody's going to drop the hammer after my previous (Firefly) performance. If they do, naughty naughty!
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Post by Pleonast on Dec 4, 2007 22:24:51 GMT -5
Well, looks like I'm headed to the chair. Here're my last words. (I'm going to be too busy to post anything tomorrow, so this is it for me.) The Colony is really screwing the sheep this game. Too many players are focusing on the wrong things. For future reference, the following things do not tell you anything about a player's alignment: 1) expressing ideas, including "bad" ideas, 2) using reasoned approaches to voting, including "bad" reasoning, 3) defending one's ideas/reasoning, including defending "badly", and 4) disagreeing about what is "bad". This isn't about choosing a cup of wine--it's about thinking about your votes rather than using your gut as a crutch. Since enough of you don't believe that (or are scum and ignoring it), my electrocution will be a nice object lesson about how to not find scum. Take heed; the Colony's been lucky so far and it's all downhill from here. I'll call out Santo Rugger in particular: your heart's in the right place, but your strategy has quite simply failed the Colony. Since this is the your first non-scum game, you can be forgiven. However, the rest of you voting for me: I'll be waiting for you in the Forbidden Thread. Reread my analysis posts on Day Two and Day Three for how I approached looking for scum without homing in on inconsequential things. I don't know how right I am, but at least I'm approaching it in a useful way. I'm sorry we've had disagreements. I really was playing for the Colony (no, I was not "playing scummy"), but lacking proof of it has doomed me. No hard feelings, I hope. And good luck, Colony, you're going to need it.
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Santo Rugger
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Post by Santo Rugger on Dec 4, 2007 22:27:46 GMT -5
<snip> I'll call out Santo Rugger in particular: your heart's in the right place, but your strategy has quite simply failed the Colony. Since this is the your first non-scum game, you can be forgiven. However, the rest of you voting for me: I'll be waiting for you in the Forbidden Thread. <snip> Umm... How do you know that?
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Post by zuma on Dec 4, 2007 22:33:36 GMT -5
This just gets more bizarre.
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Dec 4, 2007 22:35:42 GMT -5
Why empower an unconfirmed unknown with tie-breaking if we don't have to? Talk about something that makes little sense. We had to select a Gov, and we did, but we do not have to unconditionally hand him the riskiest power of the office, and he does not have to put himself in the position to wield it. We each (including Santo) have choices that can be made in order to prevent that from happening.
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Post by sinjin on Dec 4, 2007 22:37:49 GMT -5
<snip> I'll call out Santo Rugger in particular: your heart's in the right place, but your strategy has quite simply failed the Colony. Since this is the your first non-scum game, you can be forgiven. However, the rest of you voting for me: I'll be waiting for you in the Forbidden Thread. <snip> Umm... How do you know that? Dang that was my first question. Hmmmmm
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Dec 4, 2007 22:43:15 GMT -5
yikes y'all are talkative. That was in response to Kat up in #152.
And since I've now caught up, add me to the growing stack of people who would like to know how you know whether or not Santo is scum, Pleo?
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Death By Irony
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Post by Death By Irony on Dec 4, 2007 23:00:35 GMT -5
Death by Irony pinged me hard when she sent out an FoS to people for trying to figure out who killed who in past Nights, and then started talking about the color of who killed who in post 15 today. In that post, she also put out an idea about getting a cop to reveal themselves, which I found odd, at best. Um...what? My FoSes were on people who I thought was speculating on WHY they got Nightkilled. I didn't point any accusatory fingers on those using color to guess at WHO the killing parties are. And I was thinking out loud about WHAT could have happened last Night, and since NAF's claim was foremost on my mind that was the top number of possibilities. And that post was also a Thinking-Out-Loud thing that obviously was a bad idea, so I officially dropped it. (Remember how I wanted to test Roosh-the-Backup-Cop's claim by lynching NAF in the Firefly game?) As far as the "headache" thing: I was referring to "thinking myself into a headache" or other similar statements I've made in the past--I found myself wondering both "why would zuma do that as town?" and "why would zuma do that as scum?" and eventually I took the wine in front of zuma. ...and wow, I've finally caught up to reading the rest of the thread and gotten to Pleonast's eyebrow raising statement. (So is Pleonast just joking around? But why would Pleonast say something like that as town? Or as scum? Etc and so forth...)
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Post by Pollux Oil on Dec 5, 2007 0:34:33 GMT -5
So it looks like Pleo is finally going to be lynched. I can agree with some of the points being made for reasons to get him lynched, and I think it'll probably be best if Pleonast dies so everybody can move on and start being suspicious of other people. However, I'm not going to vote for him because as I stated on Day 1, I ascribe to "vote for who you think is scummiest" not "vote for who you think is anti-towniest" and I believe Death by Irony is scummier than Pleonast. I do believe Pleonast just existing is anti-town considering how he is the focus of most discussion just by being Pleonast, but I'd rather vote for somebody I think is scummy than somebody who is affecting the town in a bad way.
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Post by Captain Klutz on Dec 5, 2007 0:34:35 GMT -5
I'll call out Santo Rugger in particular: your heart's in the right place, but your strategy has quite simply failed the Colony. Since this is the your first non-scum game, you can be forgiven. However, the rest of you voting for me: I'll be waiting for you in the Forbidden Thread. That is an amazing statement about Rugger. Pleonast is close to getting a majority, but I note that our Governor has said that he will not end the Day early, so Unvote Death By IronyVote Pleonast
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Post by RoOsh on Dec 5, 2007 0:51:28 GMT -5
Wow. Gone to volunteer in the ER for one whole day, and 3 whole new pages show up while I'm gone.... Maybe I should leave more often... But I have some things to Say: i'll hit them in order: Drainbead, at this point, I'm irked. You state: A lot of subtle smudging without voting, from early in the day to in the middle. I apologize about being mistaken that you voted for Diomedes, though. I just could have sworn I saw it in a vote count. But you did advocate for voting for him after telling him to remain silent on the magic bag at Night, and were the first to pressure him to reveal it during the Day. That seems very opportunistic to me, in hindsight. AGAIN you're just creating really weak threads here by twisting my words, and adding bullshit into my mouth. At this point, I'm getting pissed off about it: 1. I NEVER told him to remain silent about the Magic Bag at night. In fact i STATED the OPPOSITE. Opportunistic, your mouth certainly is. Here let me show you my Post since you're damn well not reading it right: Yeah, but they can also make you end up Dead. Last game Mhaye or Mtgman said they had a big post for the morning.... Next morning, we all woke up.... And who was dead?1
I believe Night convos are too easily manipulated by scum (Since they can talk at night AND get to pick who to kill). So yes, I'll take the negative cost of "Okay, I'm not helping out the Colonists" at the expense of "I REALLY REALLY Don't want to have NIGHT WIFOM to deal with when sorting out the morning kills along with the Previous Day's WIFOM".2
So I will not be adding anything of value till the Day ever. 3I dislike the night chatting, but YMMV.4so Now let's examine: 1. This is a fact. Mtgman said he had a big idea he wanted to share in the morning, that night, he was killed by Scum in FF. And so we never got to hear his "big idea". --I'm WARNING Dio here. If he has something to say, he may NOT want to hold on to such information, as he could be dead by morning for something like that. 2. I still believe this. 3. Well, I felt this way on Night 1. I still feel this way, I'll play as if every DAY is my Last Day. During the night, I'll only respond to ideas, but I'm not gonna add extra crap to muddy the waters. I prefer it this way, and wish everyone did this. But they don't. 4. I acknowledge that everyone does not do this. I stated: This is MY belief. But YOUR beliefs may vary. Plain and simple. When I read that Post (and I THINK know my intent of MY posts), it's me WARNING Diomedes that he should talk during the Night and not wait till the Day. It also states that I don't like talking during the Night. That's why I avoid the whole Issue by not doing so. However, I don't TELL him to follow suit. Nor anyone else. I do acknowledge that others have different styles, and I'm not gonna complain about that issue. *It's also why the next day, I'm bemused at Dio as he survived the even with his "I've got something to say" post from the Night before. That why i use the words Magic Bag. It's the VERY term used by him and others against me. So it's completely natural for me to use that word. I was just having fun with the word, and i like its application, but everyone else starts to use it as something that seems so much more indicative. I actually felt BAD for Dio, because i was in his shoes in Asylum that same way. It's one reason i don't vote for him, because the Magic bag ploy pisses off people, but I gave him a chance. And once he posted, he was off my list, since he posted at the end... albeit late, but still. For you to twist that into me stating that I was VOTIng for dio first, and then that I was advocating lynching him later on is also untrue. -I stated yes, I was going to vote for Dio, but that's AFTER someone pointed out that he was visiting the boards often but NOT posting. There's a big difference there, and one you FAILED you mention. You're twisting my words to suit your argument, and i think it's terrible. Once i was told Dio was lurking, I was QUITE angry at him and yes I stated I was changing my mind towards voting for him. But you neglect to mention the " Dio was lurking part" which I find downright scummy. You make it seem as if I was suddenly egging others to vote for him because of a magic bag, which is simple NOT TRUE. I was stating I was going to vote for him because he was being active to the boards without posting (A True Lurker Trait). 2. And also How do you justify that my "smudge" is a factor? You were the first to VOTE for him, isn't that a bit more suspicious than my smudge? Or were you influenced by my "Magic Bag" comment? Because if you're really that easily influenced by someone saying the words "MAGIC BAG" in jest to suddenly vote for him then that's just terrible. Maybe you should ask yourself then, Why did YOU vote for Dio? You were the first, and you never changed your mind even at the end of the day.... Why did YOU find Dio so scummy, hmm? ~~~~~~Gonna break up these posts to help out whoever said thier eyes glaze over~~~~
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Post by RoOsh on Dec 5, 2007 1:01:29 GMT -5
Summary of kassia Totals: scummy +4, townie -1, neutral 3. Summary of diggitcamara Totals: scummy +3, townie -0, neutral 4. Summary of zeriel Totals: scummy +4, townie -4, neutral 8. Like... I'm confused actually by the negative Townie points, and the Neutral points. Can you please explain them? Negative Townie points are good I assume? But apparently Neutrality isn't correlated to the Townie-Scummie difference (As Z is 8 apparent from -4 to +4, but Diggit and Kassia have neutrals of 3 and 4 respectively but their Scum and Townies don't add up to their neutrals). So um. I'm just actually confused by that. Can you PLEASE clarify that much? What's Neutrality, and how did that factor in? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Humor me, would the folks voting for Pleo at least all throw out an official "I will change my vote to (player name here) if Pleo's lynch isn't continuing to gain momentum"? I just want to see where we as a town are headed if we take Pleo out of the equation. Yes. I would be voting now for either Zeriel (33%) or Drainbead (66%) at this moment. So Drainbead for the reasons stated above. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Oh and [Roosh]'s also big on the don't vote or change your vote in the last 24 hours thing as well. Having played only one mafia game here I have to ask: is this typical? It didn't seem to work that way in Firefly. We always seemed to go right to the last minute. This is not quite True. I'm not against the Don't change your vote in the last 24 hours thing. I just dislike it when people do so and someone gets lynched out of the Blue. I'm also not in favor of those who post votes in the last 24 hours with weak reasoning. (the Actions of PygmyRugger from FireFly should serve case in point for that). I think it's very easy for Scum to just wait back and try and cast a "me too" vote that can get lost among the heavier posters arguing during the last 24 hours. I don't mind people who change their votes OR vote late in the Day, as long as they've been talking throughout the Day, and giving an indication of WHERE they're leaning towards the days. So if people change their mind completely out of the blue in the last 24 hours or suddenly switch votes at the last hours, I'm going to look at those, because obviously somethings up there. Just an FYI/Clarification.
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Post by RoOsh on Dec 5, 2007 1:08:25 GMT -5
(Remember how I wanted to test Roosh-the-Backup-Cop's claim by lynching NAF in the Firefly game?) I'm still bitter about that. VERY bitter. That one idea, Dotchan, haunts me to this Day as the WORST idea i've ever heard. At that point in FF, when I heard that, I didn't give a SHIT about the Townies winning, if they lynched me on that plan then the fucking deserved to lose, it was that bad. It's the only Idea that made me completely lose faith in the Town, and actually want to ROOT for the other guys if it was implemented..... ~~~~~~~~~~~~ I ascribe to "vote for who you think is scummiest" not "vote for who you think is anti-towniest" and I believe Death by Irony is scummier than Pleonast. I do believe Pleonast just existing is anti-town considering how he is the focus of most discussion just by being Pleonast, but I'd rather vote for somebody I think is scummy than somebody who is affecting the town in a bad way. I agree with your vote for the scummiest. But I think Pleo is the scummiest currently, and have since Day 1. But I also do agree with you, I do believe his existence is hurting the Town. I know it's tunnel visioned me (and the one time i tried to break free, Zeriel calls me out on it, and makes me wonder if I was doing the right thing). I don't know if that was to prolong his own life (as I would have leaned towards him next rather than sinjin, but I'm gonna stick to my guns then and go with who i originally stated was suspicious, and still believe so. But yes, I could see a case where it would be beneficial for scum to just keep Pleonast alive during the Days as it would allow them to hide behind his discussions. It's something worth looking into once more data has been revealed.
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Post by RoOsh on Dec 5, 2007 1:12:42 GMT -5
Vote Count please, oh benevolent Moderator?And also, Sorry for Quadruple posting. But I want to share my ideas, just can't get online during the Day, and things have moved quickly. Also, how is this, o person who disliked my long posts, is this better? Though its reminds me of my FF posting style, which i know others disliked.... But things will get better after Dec. 14th when i finish all my exams and work and can resume my normal schedule (and actually devote more time to this game. :grins: Oh yes, this is me actually STRUGGLING to find time for the game.... Heh, it's why I tend to yell at those w/ less posts... Cuz dammit, If i can do it, so can you!) Anyways, it's late, and I must get up in 5 hours again for more classes. So good night, and I'll probably be back later in the evenings..... Peace out ~Roosh
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Parzival
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Post by Parzival on Dec 5, 2007 1:17:58 GMT -5
I just want to say anyone voting Pleonast just (or even partly) because they want to stop discussing him is not helping the colony at all. We need to find scum. If you want to quit discussing Pleonast, then find somebody you think is scum. Pick somebody you think is scum for continuing to keep discussion on Pleo, even. I don't like that we're several Days in with hardly any good information from either our lynches or our suspects. We had a little more talking today but if we lynch Pleonast we're still going to be behind in our search, in my opinion.
If you think he's scum, vote for him. But I've seen a couple statements to the effect that people want him out, whether he's scum or not. Either the scum have managed to manipulate this or we've done it to ourselves, neither of which bode well for the town.
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Post by CatInASuit on Dec 5, 2007 2:02:56 GMT -5
Since enough of you don't believe that (or are scum and ignoring it), my electrocution will be a nice object lesson about how to not find scum. Take heed; the Colony's been lucky so far and it's all downhill from here. I'll call out Santo Rugger in particular: your heart's in the right place, but your strategy has quite simply failed the Colony. Since this is the your first non-scum game, you can be forgiven. However, the rest of you voting for me: I'll be waiting for you in the Forbidden Thread. I have to ask, how has the colony been lucky so far? Lucky is catching a Replicant on the first day. Your comment on Santo Rugger will keep the WIFOM flowing. Reread my analysis posts on Day Two and Day Three for how I approached looking for scum without homing in on inconsequential things. I don't know how right I am, but at least I'm approaching it in a useful way. I'm sorry we've had disagreements. I really was playing for the Colony (no, I was not "playing scummy"), but lacking proof of it has doomed me. No hard feelings, I hope. And good luck, Colony, you're going to need it. Links fixed in your post. I checked your reasoning in them. You were marking people as scummy for disagreeing with your ideas or who didn't understand how you arrived at the ideas you did. It would have been a good idea, if you had managed to get past your reasoning that your Guv'nor idea was right and they were wrong. What is damning is your choice of people to do it on and how you arrived at that choice.
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Santo Rugger
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Post by Santo Rugger on Dec 5, 2007 2:06:11 GMT -5
Um...what? My FoSes were on people who I thought was speculating on WHY they got Nightkilled. I didn't point any accusatory fingers on those using color to guess at WHO the killing parties are. And I was thinking out loud about WHAT could have happened last Night, and since NAF's claim was foremost on my mind that was the top number of possibilities. And that post was also a Thinking-Out-Loud thing that obviously was a bad idea, so I officially dropped it. (Remember how I wanted to test Roosh-the-Backup-Cop's claim by lynching NAF in the Firefly game?)<snip> I fail to see the difference between trying to figure out WHY somebody was killed, WHO killed them, and WHAT happened. It seems to me that they're all interrelated. I mean, if you know WHO killed X, and WHY they were killed, you probably have a pretty good idea of WHAT Y's alignment and motivations are. You've speculated on these, and I'll quote: Dotchan: "Whatever else the color may or may not mean, last Night's results seem to lend credence to NAF's claim about Replicant resistance (or it could mean something about power roles, but until we know more I'll leave my speculation there)." Dotchan: "Yeesh. This does seem to suggest a vig and an SK in addition to the regular scum. One can only hope that toMorrow won't be as brutal." I fail to see why the above posts are supposedly okay, while delving a little deeper into the WHOs becomes a problem. Concerning your "Out the Cop" idea, just because you officially dropped it, doesn't mean you didn't try and pull a fast one on the town and/or cop.
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Post by episodeofblonde on Dec 5, 2007 6:43:04 GMT -5
Oy. What a circus. Pleo, I haven't thought you were a good lynch, but I've been becoming less convinced by that; your assertion that you haven't been 'playing scummy' is belied by this latest statement about Santo.
I can't help but wonder if Pleo does have some kind of ability triggered by getting lynch. He seems to have been trying!
I do think DBI's seeming double standard also needs to be explained ASAP.
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