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Post by abstain on Sept 8, 2014 18:11:27 GMT -5
Straid of Olpheus is a player in this game who tried to recruit me.
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Meeko
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Post by Meeko on Sept 8, 2014 18:17:53 GMT -5
.... That's what she Straid.
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Post by bufftabby on Sept 8, 2014 20:16:59 GMT -5
While waiting for other Players to check in, I wonder if folks would mind more meta-discussion about storyteller's setup. One fun part of the game is the soapstones, and the fact they we only have a few. If we ever play a game like this again, what I might do in a PM to another Player is to enclose a code-book, so that future signalling could be done in thread without wasting soapstones! Does this seem too perverse? Or even un-sportsmanlike? I used to play contract bridge, and the theory of bidding systems intrigued me. Designing a codebook for use in Mafia Games seems like an interesting problem. It would be cheating for players to privately agree on a codebook in advance, but if they agree on the codebook via soapstone PM's after the game starts would that be cheating? My question is very sincere: some things which seem natural to me might seem like cheating to others. Assuming a codebook is fair-play, how would you set it up? No one would want one that is very complicated. One simple approach, that might be good enough, is to just assign code words for each Player in the game. The intended recipient (and each Player pair would want its own code-book so that there was no leakage) would notice the key word, look it up in a table to see which Player it mapped to, and then guess what message was intended from context! Do Players think this is a good idea? Or is it a form of cheating? My own feeling is that it's a natural extension of the soapstone power, but others might vehemently disagree. A final question, in the design of such a codebook, is what sort of words to use. Obviously you wouldn't want to use common words like "want" or "the," but you wouldn't want to use rare words like "amethyst" either. For example, one phrase that caught my eye in this Game was when someone mentioned that "Swammerdammi claimed some of Chameleon's souls." "Claimed" seemed slightly unnatural in this sentence and I thought, briefly, that someone might be sending a coded message to someone else. But no. I'll guess instead that very few are "perverted" enough to even entertain the thought of such coded signalling! I was re-reading, and this post of yours reminded me of the one above. Is that code for "It's better to beg for forgiveness than ask for permission"?
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Meeko
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Post by Meeko on Sept 8, 2014 20:45:56 GMT -5
T r o a h s w e n r e t f e g a s t o r o a m i s t l d p g h d s n e y e a n h a n t a t s s f i r s s t e l e d e e s p a o m e h f t l f h d s o e a u d h r o s e u e h p h k l y l i r o e e s c o e p o o e d c m h g e d t w a i e f c t u h t m o n h e n m m h i m i a d Is that code for "It's better to beg for forgiveness than ask for permission"? I thought it was "Be sure to drink your ovaltine."
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Post by dizzymrslizzy on Sept 8, 2014 21:26:34 GMT -5
Vile Betrayer, I.E. traitor makes little sense for a member of WOTB, so the traitor would have to be of what we assume is the other three covenants, though faction scan wouldn't break cover role I imagine. Maha or dizzy is fine to go after in my opinion. And why perhaps are you "going after" me next? I'm just curious what lead you to that statement, especially since after Bill started it, I was riding Patricia from Day 1 on? Not saying I deserve Town credit for it, but not really a Pro-Scum play there...
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Post by abstain on Sept 8, 2014 21:58:18 GMT -5
Is that a slip there? I think it is.
There are two scums teams. You could very well be on the other scum team.
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Post by swammerdami on Sept 8, 2014 22:45:12 GMT -5
I was re-reading, and this post of yours reminded me of the one above. Is that code for "It's better to beg for forgiveness than ask for permission"? Good guess? But no. The part about "stop gifting me orange soapstones": MentalGuy and I had had some discussion about who needed our only orange soapstone. I decided I didn't need it and wanted to tell him so without wasting a white soapstone. For the gibberish part of the message: My intention was to PM the following to MentalGuy if it looked like we'd need to prove we'd been in amicable contact: ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Your "proof" will be to copy and paste the key to my breadcrumb, below.... To be, o r not t o be- th at is t he que stion: Wheth er 'tis noble r in th e mind to suf fer Th e slin gs and arrow s of ou trage ous fo rtune Or to t ake ar ms aga inst a sea of troub les, An d by op posin g end t hem. To die- to sleep- No mor e; and b y a sle ep to s ay we e nd The heart ache, a nd the thous and na tural shock sThat flesh is hei r to. 'Ti s a con summa tion D evout ly to b e wish' d. To di e- to sl eep. To sleep- perch ance t o drea m: ay, th ere's t he rub! For in that s leep o f deat h what dream s may c ome Wh en we h ave sh uffle d off t his mo rtal c oil, Mu st giv e us pa use. Th ere's t he res pect T hat ma kes ca lamit y of so long l ife. Fo r who w ould b ear th e whip s and s corns of tim e, Th' op press or's wr ong, th e prou d man's contu mely, T he pan gs of d espis' d love, the la w's del ay, The insol ence o f offi ce, and the sp urns T hat pa tient merit of th' u nwort hy tak es, Whe n he hi mself might his qu ietus make W ith a b are bo dkin? ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ I'm afraid this was rather overkill as "breadcrumbs" go.
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Colby11
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Day Five
Sept 8, 2014 22:49:25 GMT -5
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Post by Colby11 on Sept 8, 2014 22:49:25 GMT -5
I don't object at all. ------------
Welcome to the Game; you are Carhillion of the Fold
Your path has been long and hard. It is difficult to explain to the unitiated how much of a challenge it truly is to be the smartest person you've ever met. Talking to every person you've encountered has been like talking to a bench or a tree stump, except that at least those will let you sit on them without whining about it all the time like your last apprentice. Your gift is sorcery, and most applicable here, the power to see the vast, empty wasteland that resides between the ears of your fellows. Upon arriving in Drangleic you made the casual decision to walk the Way of the Blue... but every decision, even the worst, can be reversed by a man of sufficient wit.
STARTING COVENANT: The Way of the Blue STARTING SOULS: not telling STARTING SOAPSTONES: 1 (w)
ABILITIES Eye of the Soul -Human: Choose a target by Night and you will learn both the name of your target's current Covenant and whether he or she is Hostile to the Way of the Blue. Hollow: Your investigation will now reveal only the target's current Covenant, with no indication of hostility.
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Meeko
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Post by Meeko on Sept 8, 2014 22:57:10 GMT -5
I was re-reading, and this post of yours reminded me of the one above. Is that code for "It's better to beg for forgiveness than ask for permission"? Good guess? But no. The part about "stop gifting me orange soapstones": MentalGuy and I had had some discussion about who needed our only orange soapstone. I decided I didn't need it and wanted to tell him so without wasting a white soapstone. For the gibberish part of the message: My intention was to PM the following to MentalGuy if it looked like we'd need to prove we'd been in amicable contact: ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Your "proof" will be to copy and paste the key to my breadcrumb, below.... To be, o r not t o be- th at is t he que stion: Wheth er 'tis noble r in th e mind to suf fer Th e slin gs and arrow s of ou trage ous fo rtune Or to t ake ar ms aga inst a sea of troub les, An d by op posin g end t hem. To die- to sleep- No mor e; and b y a sle ep to s ay we e nd The heart ache, a nd the thous and na tural shock sThat flesh is hei r to. 'Ti s a con summa tion D evout ly to b e wish' d. To di e- to sl eep. To sleep- perch ance t o drea m: ay, th ere's t he rub! For in that s leep o f deat h what dream s may c ome Wh en we h ave sh uffle d off t his mo rtal c oil, Mu st giv e us pa use. Th ere's t he res pect T hat ma kes ca lamit y of so long l ife. Fo r who w ould b ear th e whip s and s corns of tim e, Th' op press or's wr ong, th e prou d man's contu mely, T he pan gs of d espis' d love, the la w's del ay, The insol ence o f offi ce, and the sp urns T hat pa tient merit of th' u nwort hy tak es, Whe n he hi mself might his qu ietus make W ith a b are bo dkin? ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ I'm afraid this was rather overkill as "breadcrumbs" go. Or underkill.How exactly is this a breadcrumb?
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Meeko
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Post by Meeko on Sept 8, 2014 23:01:35 GMT -5
I mean, yes, it's Shakespeare, but why? And what gives with the random letter placement?
What was that they said about a thousand monkeys at a thousand typewriters again?
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Post by swammerdami on Sept 8, 2014 23:58:13 GMT -5
I mean, yes, it's Shakespeare, but why? And what gives with the random letter placement? It was every fifth letter, not random. And, as I said, it would prove(*) we'd "been in amicable contact," which is about all we could (or needed to) do. (* - I suppose another Player, if skilled at cryptography, might have found the message hidden in Shakespeare and claimed to be a Pilgrim also, but I was willing to run that risk. )
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Post by dizzymrslizzy on Sept 9, 2014 6:19:41 GMT -5
Is that a slip there? I think it is. There are two scums teams. You could very well be on the other scum team. And where did you read that there are two scum teams? Because I've only been made aware of a scum team and a hostile third party team? You called me and smudged me and quite frankly I'm curious why. I think that's fair
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Post by guiri on Sept 9, 2014 9:34:32 GMT -5
Traitor is a Mafia, but Scum doesn't know who the Traitor is, and the Traitor doesn't know who Scum is. And Traitors are investigated as Town. The wording in the PM is "a vile betrayer who seeks the destruction and defeat of his or her own Covenant", it looks less like someone who needs to be reunited with a scum team than someone who benefits from the downfall of their covenant, no? I am given what faction they are playing for. I don't think that necessarily clears him of being a traitor. I am given what faction they are playing for. Meeko is part of the Way of the Blue, as is Bufftabby. Colby, I take this to strongly imply that there is no Godfather type false positives in this game. -- that your results can be trusted 100% of the time. Do also subscribe to this notion? Why would you think that in a game that definitely has recruitment and possibly has a traitor? Surely we can only momentarily trust last Night's result and should be aware that the other results were true at the time of investigation only?
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Meeko
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Sept 9, 2014 11:05:09 GMT -5
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Post by Meeko on Sept 9, 2014 11:05:09 GMT -5
Traitor is a Mafia, but Scum doesn't know who the Traitor is, and the Traitor doesn't know who Scum is. And Traitors are investigated as Town. The wording in the PM is "a vile betrayer who seeks the destruction and defeat of his or her own Covenant", it looks less like someone who needs to be reunited with a scum team than someone who benefits from the downfall of their covenant, no? I am given what faction they are playing for. I don't think that necessarily clears him of being a traitor. Colby, I take this to strongly imply that there is no Godfather type false positives in this game. -- that your results can be trusted 100% of the time. Do also subscribe to this notion? Why would you think that in a game that definitely has recruitment and possibly has a traitor? Surely we can only momentarily trust last Night's result and should be aware that the other results were true at the time of investigation only? Wait. This is too rich. Why do I trust a detective, who has claimed, and has not been countervlaimed, when he comes up with the right results? I mean, I know my true alignment, and I know that Colby knows it as well. In turn, I trust his other results as well. FOS GUIRI
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Post by guiri on Sept 9, 2014 11:09:57 GMT -5
The wording in the PM is "a vile betrayer who seeks the destruction and defeat of his or her own Covenant", it looks less like someone who needs to be reunited with a scum team than someone who benefits from the downfall of their covenant, no? I don't think that necessarily clears him of being a traitor. Why would you think that in a game that definitely has recruitment and possibly has a traitor? Surely we can only momentarily trust last Night's result and should be aware that the other results were true at the time of investigation only? Wait. This is too rich. Why do I trust a detective, who has claimed, and has not been countervlaimed, when he comes up with the right results? I mean, I know my true alignment, and I know that Colby knows it as well. In turn, I trust his other results as well. FOS GUIRI FOS all you like, this is not about trusting Colby, it's about being aware that there's at least one game mechanic which can change a player's covenant before or after they are investigated.
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Meeko
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Day Five
Sept 9, 2014 11:16:28 GMT -5
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Post by Meeko on Sept 9, 2014 11:16:28 GMT -5
Guiri I read Colby's distinction of "alignment they are playing for" as being semantically different than "alignment they would test as." that is to say I think Colby's is unaffected by false positives a godfather would offer.
But then again, I was the alleged traitor.
Not that either of those have actually been confirmed. I still believe swammer to that point, -there is a traitor- but not past it, namely, that I am the traitor.
I wonder, frankly, on balance, if the balance of a game, that at start has a two phase death, could afford for a detective to also get false results. It would make a longer game even longer.
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Meeko
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Day Five
Sept 9, 2014 11:23:09 GMT -5
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Post by Meeko on Sept 9, 2014 11:23:09 GMT -5
Wait. This is too rich. Why do I trust a detective, who has claimed, and has not been countervlaimed, when he comes up with the right results? I mean, I know my true alignment, and I know that Colby knows it as well. In turn, I trust his other results as well. FOS GUIRI FOS all you like, this is not about trusting Colby, it's about being aware that there's at least one game mechanic which can change a player's covenant before or after they are investigated. I think it is more about being aware that strictly on the odds alone, I'm not the traitor. You could be looking at other players, those active, and not active. Peeker you still with us? I could present my case as to why I truly town. Wait. I already have. I could have a detective, who has also claimed town, back me up. Wait, I already have. Against what? A post made by someone that was not town? I think I deserve benefit of the doubt here, at half of my reasons.
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Post by sinjin on Sept 9, 2014 15:54:06 GMT -5
Sorry again for non-participation, trying to get stuff ready for a 6 month trip to Ca., and family shit is still hitting fan, daily. GRRRRRR.
Vote: Suburban Plankton
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Colby11
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Post by Colby11 on Sept 9, 2014 18:15:48 GMT -5
While that might be true, Guiri, I investigated Meeko LAST NIGHT.
I'm just throwing the vote down. Vote: Vote Guiri
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Post by swammerdami on Sept 9, 2014 18:49:28 GMT -5
one player in this game is a traitor - a vile betrayer who seeks the destruction and defeat of his or her own Covenant. While the exact mechanism of storyteller's Traitor may be unknown, this part is very clear. If the Traitor has a win-con allied with Scum, he will still investigate as in his or her own Covenant -- the very Covenant of which he "seeks the destruction and defeat." A Democrat who always votes Republican will have "Democrat" stamped on his registration document. Similarly the Traitor will Investigate as Town -- storyteller's text could not be any clearer. (It's obviously not a Scummy allied with Town; the false Scummy could quickly broadcast the Scum membership list.) Therefore, to paraphrase from Hamlet again ... ... I read Colby's distinction of "alignment they are playing for" as being semantically different than "alignment they would test as." that is to say I think Colby's is unaffected by false positives a godfather would offer. ... Methinks Meeko doth protest too much. And, as to why he didn't exchange PM's with Scum -- they didn't know each other. But it was time to let the cat out of the Bag. Meeko, meet the Scum team. Scum, meet the Vile Betrayer allied with you. (I apologize to Meeko if he's really NOT the Traitor, but it seems like a 92% certainty to me.)
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Post by sinjin on Sept 9, 2014 19:25:56 GMT -5
I have never done this before, but is it time for claims? I will tell you all that I know from someone I trust that no one has switched covenants as of this Daybreak.
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Post by swammerdami on Sept 9, 2014 19:59:01 GMT -5
I have never done this before, but is it time for claims? I will tell you all that I know from someone I trust that no one has switched covenants as of this Daybreak. This doesn't surprise me as I have received and rejected TWO recruitment offers. At Dusk Day 2, I was invited to join the Way of the Blue. At Dawn Day 4, I was invited to join the Royal Rats. I rejected the request from Scum without thought, but I certainly thought of joining the WotB. Night 2 was when I pleaded for a Townie to send me a PM. At that time I was sitting on a pile of Souls I'd acquired in the Chameleon Lynch, and I thought it was in Town's interest for me to gift them to a fellow Townie to keep Scum from getting them by Killing me. (I thought, and still think, guiri is Town, but it made no sense to gift Souls to a Hollowed Player.) When no Townie could be bothered to waste a soapstone on me, I rejected the recruitment request.
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Meeko
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Post by Meeko on Sept 9, 2014 21:44:58 GMT -5
Vote: GUIRI
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Meeko
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Post by Meeko on Sept 9, 2014 21:55:48 GMT -5
one player in this game is a traitor - a vile betrayer who seeks the destruction and defeat of his or her own Covenant. While the exact mechanism of storyteller's Traitor may be unknown, this part is very clear. If the Traitor has a win-con allied with Scum, he will still investigate as in his or her own Covenant -- the very Covenant of which he "seeks the destruction and defeat." A Democrat who always votes Republican will have "Democrat" stamped on his registration document. Similarly the Traitor will Investigate as Town -- storyteller's text could not be any clearer. (It's obviously not a Scummy allied with Town; the false Scummy could quickly broadcast the Scum membership list.) Therefore, to paraphrase from Hamlet again ... ... I read Colby's distinction of "alignment they are playing for" as being semantically different than "alignment they would test as." that is to say I think Colby's is unaffected by false positives a godfather would offer. ... Methinks Meeko doth protest too much. And, as to why he didn't exchange PM's with Scum -- they didn't know each other. But it was time to let the cat out of the Bag. Meeko, meet the Scum team. Scum, meet the Vile Betrayer allied with you. (I apologize to Meeko if he's really NOT the Traitor, but it seems like a 92% certainty to me.) How does this disprove Colby ? How does this disprove Meeko? How does this disprove Sinjin? Take your head out of your opinions for two seconds, and smell the facts.
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Post by swammerdami on Sept 9, 2014 23:05:11 GMT -5
How does this disprove Colby ? How does this disprove Meeko? How does this disprove Sinjin? Take your head out of your opinions for two seconds, and smell the facts. My post was very clear. Colby investigated you as Town because that's your Covenant and also the Covenant of which you "seek the destruction and defeat." Sinjin reports no recruitments because you didn't need to be recruited -- you were already Scum. As for "disproving" you, did I miss something? Have you posted your role PM, yet? I'd think an innocent would have by now. Even in the tiny chance that you are not the Traitor, the PM from storyteller makes the mechanics clear. Your obfuscation just makes me more certain the Traitor is you. (Sorry if I used the word "recruit" to describe your relation to Scum. My intent was to mark the point at which you and Scum began to exchange PM's.)
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Meeko
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Post by Meeko on Sept 9, 2014 23:13:10 GMT -5
My post was very clear. Colby investigated you as Town because that's your Covenant and also the Covenant of which you "seek the destruction and defeat." Sinjin reports no recruitments because you didn't need to be recruited -- you were already Scum. Please tell me how I can be both.
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Day Five
Sept 10, 2014 1:02:44 GMT -5
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Post by guiri on Sept 10, 2014 1:02:44 GMT -5
While that might be true, Guiri, I investigated Meeko LAST NIGHT. I'm just throwing the vote down. Vote: Vote Guiri What's that for? Meeko asked if your results could be trusted 100% of the time and I replied that last night's result could be trusted for now but we should be aware the others may have changed. With Sinjin's claim, that may no longer be true but that was not common knowledge when I posted: I am given what faction they are playing for. Meeko is part of the Way of the Blue, as is Bufftabby. Colby, I take this to strongly imply that there is no Godfather type false positives in this game. -- that your results can be trusted 100% of the time. Do also subscribe to this notion? Why would you think that in a game that definitely has recruitment and possibly has a traitor? Surely we can only momentarily trust last Night's result and should be aware that the other results were true at the time of investigation only? That's what your PM says: ABILITIES Eye of the Soul -Human: Choose a target by Night and you will learn both the name of your target's current Covenant and whether he or she is Hostile to the Way of the Blue. Hollow: Your investigation will now reveal only the target's current Covenant, with no indication of hostility. Bolding added. Meeko's gone off on a tangent about how the result proves he's not the traitor, that was not my point.
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Day Five
Sept 10, 2014 1:17:34 GMT -5
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Post by guiri on Sept 10, 2014 1:17:34 GMT -5
Please tell me how I can be both. Imagine the following setup: the traitor is a member of wotb but has a personal wincon that allows them to win with a hostile team, so it's in their interest to undermine wotb. The hostile team may not be aware of the traitor's existence but if they happen to attack/contact/interact with the traitor, the traitor will leave wotb and become a full member of the hostile team. It's possible for a player to be a member of a covenant but not share their wincon: The problem with this is, unless someone has information on how the role of a traitor works in this game, anything Swammi says is conjecture but so is anything you may say to disprove his theory. Without posting a role PM, proving a different power, or being revealed, I do not think there's any way to prove a player is not a traitor but a cop result of wotb is certainly a good start.
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Post by swammerdami on Sept 10, 2014 4:44:10 GMT -5
The problem with this is, unless someone has information on how the role of a traitor works in this game, anything Swammi says is conjecture but so is anything you may say to disprove his theory. Without posting a role PM, proving a different power, or being revealed, I do not think there's any way to prove a player is not a traitor but a cop result of wotb is certainly a good start. I disagree with the parts I've underlined. We know more about the Traitor than you suggest. He is in Town but is working to defeat it -- he's allied with Scum; he shares their wincon. (My earlier post would have been clearer if I'd written "[Meeko] is allied with Scum" rather than "is Scum.") If the Traitor doesn't Investigate as being in the Covenant he seeks to betray; what would the term "Traitor" even mean?
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Post by guiri on Sept 10, 2014 4:51:26 GMT -5
Swammi, do we know any of that? For example, could the traitor just as well be part of the Pilgrims of the Dark with a wincon to prevent any of the other Pilgrims from surviving till end game? If you have more information, please share.
As for the good start, if there is a traitor who is WOTB but has a wincon which is hostile to WOTB, wouldn't Colby's result have shown Meeko as WOTB but hostile, rather than non-hostile as claimed?
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