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Day Two
Feb 13, 2008 11:57:11 GMT -5
Post by Hawkmod on Feb 13, 2008 11:57:11 GMT -5
Really? Wow. Were the complete role descriptions of Blade Runner ever posted? Would be an interesting read.
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Day Two
Feb 13, 2008 12:02:16 GMT -5
Post by Pleonast on Feb 13, 2008 12:02:16 GMT -5
Really? Wow. Were the complete role descriptions of Blade Runner ever posted? Would be an interesting read. I think everything is archived on this site somewhere. But a lot of the specifics on claiming were hashed out between me and story in PMs.
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Day Two
Feb 13, 2008 12:03:41 GMT -5
Post by Hal Briston on Feb 13, 2008 12:03:41 GMT -5
Lies can harm the town. Lies can draw out scum. Lies can wind up being of no benefit at all, and lies can wind up with the liar shooting themselves in the foot. It's all a matter of play style -- how risk-adverse a particular person is. I guess I can live with a Townie lie if the lie does not, in any way, have the potential to harm the Town while at the same time it does have the potential to mislead the scum. But that does not mean I have to like it. Wow...so no risk to the town, and risky for scum, and you can "live with it", but not like it? Cripes, man...there's being risk-adverse, but that's just off the deep end.
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Day Two
Feb 13, 2008 12:09:16 GMT -5
Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Feb 13, 2008 12:09:16 GMT -5
This whole "To lie or not to lie" debate, imho, is much more of a red herring than anything else that has been discussed so far in this game. However, it has us talking and talking is good, so I'll just point out a few challenges that I think we face for discussion on the topic.
1) We don't have a consensus definition of what a "lie" actually is in the context of the debate. Kinda makes it hard to have a debate without setting the terminology variables first. 2) Imho, there are "smart lies" and "not-so-smart lies", "subtle lies" and "blatant lies", but we don't have consensus definitions on those either. 3) Such a debate requires metagaming up the wazoo.
So, if we all want to take the time to agree on the terminology so that we're all on the same page, I'll continue participating in the conversation. If not, I'll just leave my views on record (that lying about, obscuring, or otherwise withholding information can be, under the right circumstances, a valid town power-role strategy) and the rest of you can continue to talk about it if you wish. It goes without saying that (regardless of my participation level) I'll certainly read anything that anyone has to say about any topic, and anything you say can and will be held against you in the court of Cookies' Paranoia.
[Metagame tangent that should probably be moved to a metagame thread] Pleo: You don't think the your making your required fake claim prior to any of the un-faked claims (without having any sort of bearings on what the other power roles would say, or how they would say it) had anything to do with your Bladerunner lynch?[/tangent]
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Day Two
Feb 13, 2008 12:26:53 GMT -5
Post by Pleonast on Feb 13, 2008 12:26:53 GMT -5
T[Metagame tangent that should probably be moved to a metagame thread] Pleo: You don't think the your making your required fake claim prior to any of the un-faked claims (without having any sort of bearings on what the other power roles would say, or how they would say it) had anything to do with your Bladerunner lynch?[/tangent] I guess I look more at the situation that forced me to false claim as the primary cause of my lynch. My false claim was at best a delaying tactic.
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Day Two
Feb 13, 2008 15:13:27 GMT -5
Post by Hal Briston on Feb 13, 2008 15:13:27 GMT -5
This whole "To lie or not to lie" debate, imho, is much more of a red herring than anything else that has been discussed so far in this game. You're quite correct -- while there is certainly a discussion to be had on the topic, this really isn't the place and time for it. Unless someone makes a "I was lying earlier in order to trap scum" claim, I'm happy letting it die for now.
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Death By Irony
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Day Two
Feb 13, 2008 15:18:22 GMT -5
Post by Death By Irony on Feb 13, 2008 15:18:22 GMT -5
Wikipedia wrote:Lü Bu (died 199) was a military general and later minor warlord during the late Eastern Han Dynasty and Three Kingdoms era of China. According to the Records of Three Kingdoms, Lü Bu was a master in horseback riding, archery, and armed combat, and was thus known as the Flying General. His image as a handsome and mighty warrior wielding a ji known as the "Heaven Scorcher" (方天畫戟) on top of his steed Red Hare was later popularized by the 14th-century historical novel Romance of the Three Kingdoms.
Besides being matchless on the battlefield, Lü Bu was also notorious for having betrayed and slain two separate masters (who were both his adoptive fathers). He was perhaps most well-known for his amorous relationship with the most likely fictional Diaochan which led to his slaying of his adoptive father Dong Zhuo, the tyrannical warlord who held the puppet figurehead Emperor Xian in his control. Top-of-the-page votecount: 4 - No Lynch (atarus, drainbead, mhaye, ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies) 3 - drainbead (Diomedes, diggitcamara, hawkeyeop) 1 - storyteller0910 (Roosh) 1 - Peasant Smurf (Pleonast)
Reminder: The Day ends at 11:59 today.
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Day Two
Feb 13, 2008 15:59:16 GMT -5
Post by Hawkmod on Feb 13, 2008 15:59:16 GMT -5
Can every one who hasn't voted get a vote on the table? Even if it is for a no lynch, we need people to vote.
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Merestil Haye
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Day Two
Feb 13, 2008 16:09:37 GMT -5
Post by Merestil Haye on Feb 13, 2008 16:09:37 GMT -5
For those people who oppose No Lynch; we need to assemble an absolute majority in order to lynch. This is not something that will just happen.
My own vote may be on No Lynch, but that was to avoid blindly invoking the "Lynch the Leader" mechanism when there was a serious risk of that leader being Drainbead who (at the time I voted) had a whole two votes. Somehow that struck me as being a little risky.
I'm still hoping to find a suitable candidate, even in the last 8 hours (or a little less).
Back to reading...
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Day Two
Feb 13, 2008 16:35:33 GMT -5
Post by nesta on Feb 13, 2008 16:35:33 GMT -5
I don't have time to do much more than vote right now, but I'm going to
Vote Smurf
for the same reasons I found him suspicious Yesterday. Unfortunately my read on him is wavering so as much as I hate it I'm starting to think a no-lynch might be preferable. Basically I'm frustrated with the way Today has gone and it might be better to hope the scum will do our work for us and we can try to get a fresh start Tomorrow.
I think Smurf is our best chance of reaching some sort of consensus, but if we no-lynch then so be it.
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Day Two
Feb 13, 2008 16:59:22 GMT -5
Post by storyteller0910 on Feb 13, 2008 16:59:22 GMT -5
Y'all -
I have basically nothing. I was knocked completely flat on my ass for two plus days with illness, and set back enormously at work because of it. I haven't been able to follow along much at all, and even now I've just skimmed rather than reading for comprehension, so I don't feel comfortable building much of an analysis.
A few quick hit thoughts before I head for home:
(1) hawkeye, I recognize that I have gained your suspicion. I feel like I should address it, but my response to your points seems to be, in each case, "I disagree." My final word on the subject builds on something Cookies just said, upthread:
I'm going to say this: if you want to assert the above, then fine. But understand that if, as a town power role, you choose to lie, obscure, or withhold, then you will draw heat for it if you're caught out. And the fact that you will draw heat and confuse matters should be part of the calculus you use when determining whether your lie is of value or not - if you want to avoid scrutiny and keep from having to claim or clarify, avoid lying.
At all events, hawkeye, I think I have a vanishingly small chance of surviving this Night, so your suspicion of me isn't likely to matter much come Dawn.
(2) I don't necessarily favor a no-lynch toDay, because as someone else has said we have a fairly good chance of catching scum even just guessing at random. But I have very little to go on. I'm going to
vote Peasant Smurf
for waffling and general avoidance of the spotlight, as detailed by me and others yesterDay before the Great Roosh Caper took center stage. It's not a great vote, but given the current circumstances I think it better than a no-lynch.
For my general lack of participation in recent days, I'm really, really sorry. I suck.
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RoOsh
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Day Two
Feb 13, 2008 17:00:40 GMT -5
Post by RoOsh on Feb 13, 2008 17:00:40 GMT -5
The fact that this assertion is incorrect is best borne out by what happened toDay in this game, in which a player's lie has distracted everyone into not getting anything done while we worked it all out. 1 And for what? To trick the scum into thinking he still had his powers? Why? What would that help, exactly? I can completely understand the urge to still be playing the game, but the only reason I can see why Roosh would do that is to stay alive at Night, and thus potentially deflecting the scum's attention to other power roles that still are useful to us. At the point in time in which Roosh made his most egregious lies 2, he was essentially vanilla--and it's silly for a vanilla townsperson to lie....see Winston Smith for an example of that. It makes town who wants to Lynch All Liars suspicious, and it could potentially deflect the scum away from him and onto someone who is actually still useful to us. I trust that Roosh is who he is at this point, because I think the real whats-his-name would have claimed to avoid all this BS by now. But I still don't think he made the right play, and I question anyone who does. 1. This claim is simply untrue now. I did waste time toDay with my claim, but it was around 2.5 days out of nearly 9-10 days we've had for Today's lynch. So to say that my play "wasted" toDay is simply untrue. I wasted a few Days yes, but I HARDLY think actions are the ONLY reason that people have had NOTHING to say for the last 8 days. 2. I did not lie to stay alive. Remember, when I MADE My claim, i believed I had my powers. So I believed I had claimed and I thought I didn't lose my powers. So my claim was not meant simply to stay alive, but ALSO to KEEP my abilities. It was only AFTER the facts did I discover that my claim didn't work. And by then I had already posted that I believed my claim was fine (since I didn't lose my powers right away). Keep that in mind. ALL Day 1 Actions were made with the assumption that I had my powers. -That's why On Day 2, I retracted my position of other power roles lying. I pulled a 180 there once I realized the danger. So this whole "most egregious lies were made toDay" business is false. Also, in the very post that someone linked to early about one of my posts from Today- if you read that Post I notice that Pleonast had mentioned two very specific points. So OF COURSE I told him that I didn't believe my claim crossed the line, because by those two very points I KNEW it had, and I assumed that every other power role wouldn't just listen to me and start blatantly claiming, but would contact the Mods first. Pleonast quoted 2 parts that the Mods had also told me, so I didn't mind lying to Pleonast, because i figured he knew the truth. Yes, I didn't care what an ordinary townie might think, because I knew the people to whom this information actually Mattered (other power roles) would actually take the time to do the homework. So I say my claims as being "safe" for them, as anyone performing an action simply because I SAID so is foolish. - And I still feel I made the best play that I could with the conditions that I had. YMMV, but still. I did what I had to do. At least story was kind enough to review and approve my false claim before I posted it. I knew I wouldn't lose my powers for it. This would have been the only thing that I would have changed ( i would have asked the Mods first, but the way that my replies had been going, I figured 1. I didn't have the time for it (waiting for a mod to come and approve, and for the mods to probably get together and think about it, at a point when I was close to lynching). And 2. I didn't know if the Mods would TELL me if I was safe or not, so why waste the time (Especially since now, they didn't' tell me I had broken anything until the Night came, I doubt they would have told me then. But it's worth a shot to anyone out there).
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RoOsh
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Day Two
Feb 13, 2008 17:05:25 GMT -5
Post by RoOsh on Feb 13, 2008 17:05:25 GMT -5
RE: Extras (ie: Doesn't really matter in the scheme of THIS game) I guess I can live with a Townie lie if the lie does not, in any way, have the potential to harm the Town while at the same time it does have the potential to mislead the scum. But that does not mean I have to like it. Another example of the lying where it HAS helped the Town would be my complete bullshitting of the Inara Role in Firefly Mafia, which allowed me to stay alive and become a Backup Cop. I view that as the best example of a Lie created to where it couldn't hurt the Town in any real way, and only really hurt scum. ~~~~~~~~ /oog Pleonast- Your BR Claim: Well, as scum in that Game, Pleo, I guess I Can tell you how I felt about your claim from my pov: -I totally believed it. I forgot about the BR, and focused on you. That's why I wanted you dead so bad, and I kept voting for you for spurious reasons. I treated you as your Role fully, and just tried to make you out to be an SK. The fact of you being BR never crossed my mind until AFTER you died, and the only reason I kept trying to get you lynched was because of your night ability- the planting bombs one, i felt it was dangerous to me as Scum- especially since I felt i was in your radar. So i just didn't want you to blow me up. Which is amusing especially because ONCE i saw your actually role, I created my "fake" role-claim based specifically AROUND your fake claim to justify my actions (The fact that I pretended to be a Combat Medic- and had it in my PM that there were no other military people around me). The fact that I saved that till late game all came from You, but no one ever brought up that issue vs. me, so i never got to use that defense. But still. I fully believed your fake claim, it was just that I viewed that role as being TOO Powerful and dangerous. If you had said another claim without having one that could harm people- you would have TOTALLY slipped under my radar. And there ya go. The More ya Know.... /oog
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RoOsh
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Day Two
Feb 13, 2008 17:10:05 GMT -5
Post by RoOsh on Feb 13, 2008 17:10:05 GMT -5
Of the two targets (Drainbead vs. Smurf), I'm more suspicious of Drainbead, and I'm interested in how Smurf got 2 votes on him pretty quickly. So I'll do the opposite and vote for one of the 2 people I said I'd be pretty comfortable with voting at the early time of this Day:
Unvote ST (though I still think you're the scummiest. This is just because I want to see a lynch Today, and would rather support this one over the other:
Vote Drainbead
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Day Two
Feb 13, 2008 18:39:31 GMT -5
Post by Drain Bead on Feb 13, 2008 18:39:31 GMT -5
It looks like we're headed for a no-lynch. I'm starting to come down with what I hope is not the same creeping death illness that half the people in my office have (I got a flu shot...wtf!) so I'm going to crash.
As far as how Smurf got heat, keep in mind that he had a few votes on him at the end of yesterDay. It's not like this came out of nowhere--it's been at a low simmer for pretty much the whole game.
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Day Two
Feb 13, 2008 19:06:34 GMT -5
Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Feb 13, 2008 19:06:34 GMT -5
It looks like we're headed for a no-lynch. I'm starting to come down with what I hope is not the same creeping death illness that half the people in my office have (I got a flu shot...wtf!) so I'm going to crash. I hope you feel better. I'm feeling crappy too. My seal coughing must have been bad on the commute this morning, since Kassia has been bringing me Vitamin C infused fruit smoothies at my desk. ;D What's this? A blip on my scumdar screen??!! I realize that you and Smurf and that damn lurker No Lynch are the only ones on the vote board, but I'd hardly call any cases against anyone in this game so far as being "simmering", and using a phrase like "pretty much the whole game" really makes it sound like spin to me. So you're just going to post a drive-by smear on the only other person with votes besides yourself, and not provide any further defense against the votes next to your own name?
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Day Two
Feb 13, 2008 19:42:00 GMT -5
Post by Boozahol Squid, P.I. on Feb 13, 2008 19:42:00 GMT -5
Sorry for my absence msot of this day: I couldn't access the board for several days, and a recent change in job title (yay, me!) has me swamped at work.
I seriously don't see what the No-Lynch crowd is doing. I know we don't have any great leads: my vote against drainbead is placed merely because she kept on prodding a distracting, unproductive discussion. I think it's an anti-town move, which doesn't necessarily mean scum, but it's as good a hint as I've seen so far.
The no-lynch movement to me seems some sort of desperate hope for the town to be saved by scum cross-kills, doc-blocks and the vig. I don't like relying on other people to do my dirty work, and a no-lynch doesn't give us any more information with which to analyze people's actiosn later.
(prays not to be dot-swatted for something similar to the infamous 'lynch for info')
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Gir!
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Day Two
Feb 13, 2008 22:17:15 GMT -5
Post by Gir! on Feb 13, 2008 22:17:15 GMT -5
Hell. Well, okay, based on the top 3 vote-getters (NoLynch, drainbead and Peasant Smurf), I will vote for drainbead. I'm not totally happy with the choice, because I don't agree with some of the reasons she's being voted for, but her comment about Smurf-suspicion being simmering all game is misleading. The votes from yesterDay she mentioned were based on largely his lurking and non-content-filled posts, plus his vote for Pleonast. He hasn't done a lot to avoid suspicion for the same reason that he hasn't done a lot to draw suspicion, because he's not saying much of anything.
And, if there were a consensus to lynch him based on the lurking, I'd accept that. I was, in fact, thisclose from voting him myself; however, the attempt to magnify the suspicions on him is suspicious to me.
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Gir!
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Day Two
Feb 13, 2008 22:18:58 GMT -5
Post by Gir! on Feb 13, 2008 22:18:58 GMT -5
Er...vote for drainbead.
Where's Smacky when you need him? ;D
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Death By Irony
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Day Two
Feb 13, 2008 22:51:28 GMT -5
Post by Death By Irony on Feb 13, 2008 22:51:28 GMT -5
One hour to deadline votecount, no clever comic because I'm too busy reading "Let's Play" threads on SomethingAwful's forum.
5 - drainbead (Diomedes, diggitcamara, hawkeyeop, RoOsh, Kat) 4 - No Lynch (atarus, drainbead, mhaye, ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies) 3 - Peasant Smurf (Pleonast, nesta, storyteller0910)
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Day Two
Feb 13, 2008 22:54:02 GMT -5
Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Feb 13, 2008 22:54:02 GMT -5
A blip is better than nothing.
Unvote No Lynch. Vote drainbead.
Wearing the "assume drain is scum" goggles also casts a suspicious pall over her voiced suspicions of Pleo, even though I happened to agree with at least part of her case (that the discrepancies between Roosh's and Pleo's account were not necessarily put to bed). Even so, I did not have (and still do not have) any point of reference as to which of the two (if either) were shadier in light of the discrepancies.
Her repeated need for clarification that it was Pleo that she suspected more than Roosh leaves me wondering how likely it would have been that she would've clarified in the other direction had people voiced more questions about why she found Pleo suspicious instead of Roosh, if that makes any sense. It might very well not make much sense, since this particular paragraph is admittedly grasping at straws and wild-ass-guessing-conjecture with a dash of confirmation bias...but that's what I've got.
Also, her last comment about Smurf reinforces the scummy ping a bit, since they both voiced suspicions of Pleo.
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Santo Rugger
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Day Two
Feb 13, 2008 23:33:45 GMT -5
Post by Santo Rugger on Feb 13, 2008 23:33:45 GMT -5
*sigh*
Vote DrainBead
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RoOsh
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Day Two
Feb 13, 2008 23:35:00 GMT -5
Post by RoOsh on Feb 13, 2008 23:35:00 GMT -5
Well, we'd need 3 more to lynch, and I don't really see that happening in the next 20 mins.... So congrats you No-lynchers and non-voters. You get your wish. Let's leave this in hands of Scum tonight to cull the herd for us.
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RoOsh
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Day Two
Feb 13, 2008 23:35:28 GMT -5
Post by RoOsh on Feb 13, 2008 23:35:28 GMT -5
*2 more votes actually.
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Day Two
Feb 13, 2008 23:41:06 GMT -5
Post by nesta on Feb 13, 2008 23:41:06 GMT -5
I find Smurf scummier than drainbead at this point, but she has pinged the scumdar a couple of times.
Worth a shot.
Unvote Smurf
Vote drainbead
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Day Two
Feb 13, 2008 23:47:14 GMT -5
Post by Pleonast on Feb 13, 2008 23:47:14 GMT -5
Unvote (Smurf) Vote (Drainbead)
A lynch is better than none.
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Death By Irony
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Day Two
Feb 13, 2008 23:49:38 GMT -5
Post by Death By Irony on Feb 13, 2008 23:49:38 GMT -5
A voice booms from the heavens:
"A majority has been reached. Dusk will fall."
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