Death By Irony
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The Former Mandate of Heaven/Current Gastard Night Mod
I'm my own mind-altering substance!
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Post by Death By Irony on Mar 20, 2008 22:14:58 GMT -5
Incidentally, most Closed setups include the generic Vanilla role PM to avoid the whole townie handshake thing.
Of course, since this is a no-Vanilla game... ;D
(This means I'd actually be more suspicious of those who claim an "exact" match.)
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RoOsh
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[on:Wanna see a magic trick?][of:See You, Space Cowboy....]
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Post by RoOsh on Mar 20, 2008 22:20:34 GMT -5
:eats Nachos while chilling on the Mod Couch: :Snaps Fingers: Magical Mod Slushie Appears in Hand: :Continues Watching Game Happily:
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Merestil Haye
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[on:Slumming it in the Middle-Earth][of:In the halls of Manw
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Post by Merestil Haye on Mar 21, 2008 12:01:31 GMT -5
8 hours to go. I don't know if I can stay awake that long, but I'll try.
Zuma's right about one thing; 27 pages of posts at this point gives plenty of data to go over later in the game. You just need the patience to reread, often.
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Post by sachertorte on Mar 21, 2008 12:10:04 GMT -5
Right now Atarus is the one making me think scum. But its early to get a good read on anyone.
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Post by sachertorte on Mar 21, 2008 14:39:38 GMT -5
Zuma's statement about atarus gives me pause. I'm left wondering if zuma knows that atarus is Town and that is why he said he could never vote atarus because of his icon.
And now we see that koldanar knows something about storyteller. Hmmm.
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Merestil Haye
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Post by Merestil Haye on Mar 21, 2008 15:24:04 GMT -5
I have no real handle, but then I never do. The town has a little over 4 hours to come to some consensus about who to lynch and the last claim has just derailed the consensus against the leader.
So how large is the mason pool, do you think? 4?
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Post by sachertorte on Mar 21, 2008 15:44:40 GMT -5
That's a good question. In Conspiracy the masons had the weakest power, so I see an argument for not just having them, but having quite a few of them. (Conspiracy had 4). However, Mason power scales considerably with growing group size. A group of 5 is MUCH more powerful than a group of 4. (JSexton's point system scores masons as the square of the number of masons). So I think 4 is a good number. 5 would need to be balanced with more scum and/or very weak town powers for other players. 6 is probably out of the question.
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Merestil Haye
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Post by Merestil Haye on Mar 21, 2008 16:10:25 GMT -5
If I design a game with masons, it's highly unlikely to have a two-person group; three or four seem good numbers to me, and with 24 players I was half-expecting four.
Outing three on Day 1 is probably a little unlucky though.
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Post by sachertorte on Mar 21, 2008 16:17:17 GMT -5
Possibly unlucky. Masons are the vanilla Town of this game. As unlynchables that's pretty much their only power. It's better to save them for the endgame, but with everyone else a power-role -- better to have the Masons claim than your powerroles.
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Post by Boozahol Squid, P.I. on Mar 21, 2008 19:12:35 GMT -5
That's a good question. In Conspiracy the masons had the weakest power, so I see an argument for not just having them, but having quite a few of them. (Conspiracy had 4). However, Mason power scales considerably with growing group size. A group of 5 is MUCH more powerful than a group of 4. (JSexton's point system scores masons as the square of the number of masons). So I think 4 is a good number. 5 would need to be balanced with more scum and/or very weak town powers for other players. 6 is probably out of the question. Do you have a copy of JSexton's point system? I imagine our game is horribly broken by his standards, but I'm interested in seeing how close we got it.
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Merestil Haye
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Post by Merestil Haye on Mar 21, 2008 20:04:18 GMT -5
*Gets out some more nachos and a pitcher of cream*
Welcome, Kat. Sorry that you've had to join us.
*Adds some more supplies for Koldanar.*
They weren't joking about the blood then.
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Koldanar
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Post by Koldanar on Mar 21, 2008 20:34:29 GMT -5
I can't WAIT to see the spoiler board; the nature of my role means i don't think i could be a sub so i want to look and laugh
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Gir!
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What? Kat is sweet and innocent!
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Post by Gir! on Mar 21, 2008 21:04:42 GMT -5
So, did my role surprise anyone?
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Merestil Haye
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Post by Merestil Haye on Mar 21, 2008 21:14:01 GMT -5
Of course.
Now if you'll excuse me...
*Swirls his Cloak of the Mountebank about himself and disappears in a puff of smoke.*
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Post by diggitcamara on Mar 21, 2008 22:13:27 GMT -5
So, did my role surprise anyone? Not me! ;D
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RoOsh
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Post by RoOsh on Mar 22, 2008 11:28:38 GMT -5
So, what did the peanut gallery think of Day 1?
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Post by sachertorte on Mar 22, 2008 15:13:32 GMT -5
I'm trying to figure out how this Day and game avoided the usual "we have nothing to talk about on Day One" situation that usually arises. I think part of it is we have very talkative new players, which is very good for the game.
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Post by sachertorte on Mar 22, 2008 15:15:05 GMT -5
Sure. The basic idea is to assign points for each role, with vanilla townies forming a baseline of 1 point each. The goal is to end up within, say 2 or 3 points of each other for town and scum. Keep in mind that this is still pretty subjective, and is open to debate about the exact pointing. Cop: 4 Doc: 3 Vig: 2.5 Compulsory Vig: 1.5 (some say less. Heck, some say it's worse than vanilla town) Roleblocker: 2 Back-Up Cop: 2.5 Back-Up Doc: 2 Watcher: 2 Tracker: 2 1 Shot Vig: 2 self-confirming townie: 2 2 man masonry: 2 points each 3 man masonry: 2.5 points each 4 man masonry: 3 points each Vanilla Townie: 1 You can have roles that are worth less than a townie nothing or even negative, such as: Miller: .5 (hey, at least he can vote!) Self-ending townie (dies automatically given a certain threshold): 0 Voteless Townie: -1 (because he still counts toward the lynch number) Scum Basic Mafia: 4.5 Godfather: 7 Investigator: 6 Toughguy (bonus nightkill): 7 Daykiller (bonus daykill): 7.5 Roleblocker: 6.5 Redirector: 7 Serial Killer: I actually consider the SK a vanilla mafioso for purposes of game balance, with added points for abilities like being untargetable, investigating as innocents, etc. After looking at certain interactions (like cop+doc) I will add bonus points for the town. The scum might also have certain synergies, like getting a bonus point of they have both a role investigator AND a redirector. For unusual roles (like the Bingo manager), you just need to think about what the actual impact on the game will be, and equate it to an existing role. Finally, how does the game start? Day start generally favors the town: +1 to town Cop Head Start (Night start with use of all abilities but no Kills allowed: +2 to town Normal Night start: 0 This is very much a work in progress. One way to evaluate it's effectiveness is to go back and look at a completed game that went down to the wire where nothing went dramatically wrong for either side (i.e., no modkills or anything like that). That should, in theory, be a well-balanced game. Then point it, and see if it comes out even. If it doesn't, then you might be pointing incorrectly and need to adjust your method.
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RoOsh
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Post by RoOsh on Mar 22, 2008 15:26:43 GMT -5
I'm trying to figure out how this Day and game avoided the usual "we have nothing to talk about on Day One" situation that usually arises. I think part of it is we have very talkative new players, which is very good for the game. Yeah, I'm REALLY happy to have the Rookies, as I'm calling them, on boards. I feel they're all contributing well, and they're a definite plus to future games. I'd love to play alongside them in the future. Also I think we made the game interesting enough that there would be PLENTY to talk about in the first couple Days. This game was DESIGNED to be talkative. You'll see it more at the end of the Game I suppose in the Spoilers, but it's because of my personality i think. I hate silent games, and so when I started to create the game, I wanted to make a game that'd be Fun to WATCH First and then Fun to Play. So it's designed to not fall into the "boring game" trap that can happen where everything just lulls. Plus, the 5 day Lynch Week really helps with that. Previously you could just wait until the last 2 days to have a discussion on who to lynch. This game's setup (Plurality Lynches, not 50%, and the 5 days to work with) REALLY force you into a "hurry up " mode of Mafia. So you've gotta get all the information, come up with strategies, and then vote, AND you can't just count on No Lynches or "Let's just vote 24 hours early deadlines" sorta business to help save your behind. I always did love the Video Game NFL Blitz much more than the Madden Franchises as a Kid.... I think that kinda helps explain it if anyone's familiar with those games.
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Post by Boozahol Squid, P.I. on Mar 22, 2008 19:29:15 GMT -5
I always did love the Video Game NFL Blitz much more than the Madden Franchises as a Kid.... I think that kinda helps explain it if anyone's familiar with those games. That just meant you weren't good at football, Roosh. Blitz was annoying as fuck to anyone who played O-line and couldn't protect their QB from late hits in those games...
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RoOsh
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Post by RoOsh on Mar 23, 2008 1:31:00 GMT -5
That just meant you weren't good at football, Roosh. Touche. I didn't interested in learning about ACTUAL football actually until about 2001 or so. And that's when I was 16 or so.
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Post by tdpatriots12 on Mar 23, 2008 11:01:12 GMT -5
Touche. I didn't interested in learning about ACTUAL football actually until about 2001 or so. And that's when I was 16 or so. You followed football in high school Rushi? Could have fooled me. But then you did pick teams based on "who lost to the Patriots in the playoffs" to the point that one of 'your teams' was always losing to the Patriots in the playoffs.
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RoOsh
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Post by RoOsh on Mar 23, 2008 12:15:00 GMT -5
But then you did pick teams based on "who lost to the Patriots in the playoffs" to the point that one of 'your teams' was always losing to the Patriots in the playoffs. You are referring the Raiders and Colts. But yeah, I said i got INTERESTED in football in 2001- getting down the rules, strategy, and such, that didn't come until about 3-4 years ago. But yeah, I'm a fan of Colts, Ravens, and Anyone vs. the Patriots.
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Post by Boozahol Squid, P.I. on Mar 23, 2008 12:57:28 GMT -5
Oi! tdpatriots12! You're still in the game! You can't come in here! There's secret unspoilered discussion going on in here!
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RoOsh
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Post by RoOsh on Mar 24, 2008 0:41:07 GMT -5
So... Day II.
A New Day. A New Game? Or did you guys totally expect this? (I for one was def. surprised)
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Post by sachertorte on Mar 24, 2008 8:30:58 GMT -5
Previously you could just wait until the last 2 days to have a discussion on who to lynch. This game's setup (Plurality Lynches, not 50%, and the 5 days to work with) REALLY force you into a "hurry up " mode of Mafia. So you've gotta get all the information, come up with strategies, and then vote, AND you can't just count on No Lynches or "Let's just vote 24 hours early deadlines" sorta business to help save your behind. I think I'm starting to agree with you. The introduction of majority needed to lynch was met with anti-town labeling that I didn't understand. My feeling was that plurality voting was hurting the town because people were getting lynched with less than 25% of the population voting for them. But I think now, majority voting has hindered the town for other reasons. Once a person gets a few votes, it is very hard to shake off "front runner" status. So even though a majority is needed, the hurdle kind of makes early leaders permanent anyway. This is less a function of the policy as it is gameplay, but I think having a period of majority voting has made the re-introduction of plurality voting much more effective. Batman (at least so far) has avoided the pitfalls of plurality voting, while maintain the 'goal' of majority voting of reaching a consensus.
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RoOsh
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Post by RoOsh on Mar 24, 2008 8:49:21 GMT -5
I think the key to a good plurality voting, is to have the shorter time frame. If the Day was 2 weeks long, the plurality pratfalls would start to popup more often, with people being lazy until the last 48 hours really. But the reduced time frame can still allow that, it' just the last 48hours will happen right after the FIRST 48 hours. So i think it's not a bad system. Weds is sorta the hump day, where I can try to predict what'll happen UP to weds, and then what happens AFTER Weds will require more thought because it'll be almost a new game.
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Post by sachertorte on Mar 24, 2008 8:57:44 GMT -5
So much for "quick and bloody."
Storyteller's name claim was rather predictable. I don't even pay attention to comics and Batman and I figured out that storyteller was poison ivy, so name claiming was pretty much a given there.
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Post by Boozahol Squid, P.I. on Mar 24, 2008 11:45:17 GMT -5
But yeah, I'm a fan of Colts, Ravens, and Anyone vs. the Patriots. We're not friends anymore.
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Post by Boozahol Squid, P.I. on Mar 24, 2008 11:47:27 GMT -5
So much for "quick and bloody." Storyteller's name claim was rather predictable. I don't even pay attention to comics and Batman and I figured out that storyteller was poison ivy, so name claiming was pretty much a given there. Hey, we allowed for up to half of the population to be dead by th end of Night Two. It's not our fault that things didn't quite work out that way...
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