|
Post by sachertorte on Apr 14, 2008 13:03:16 GMT -5
It's been hard to follow. The town seems to have a copious to-do list that I can't disagree with.
The Ryjae/Hawkeyeop situation needs to be resolved. So one of them needs to die. I've been spoiled about Blaster Master, so I won't comment about him.
I think brewha is a protective role who has a side effect of blocking, so that role-blocking isn't the point of targetting storyteller, protecting him from death was. This is mostly a hunch though and I haven't thought it through much, but I do recall thinking brewha was Town back on Day One based on the angle of one of his posts so at least thats consistent. (Consistently wrong perhaps, but consistent none-the-less). Protect/Blocking NAF on Night One is consistent with the protective aspect. I don't really see scum targetting NAF on Night One, but I can see a doctor protecting NAF on Night One.
It seems that the Masons are not being targeted by the Do-Gooders. Seems like a logical choice for them since other power-roles are more important to kill. Also, Town will be tempted to lynch a Mason to do an alignment check. At this time, neither side has any reason to go after a Mason. Town has a to-lynch list that has greater priority. Also, the reveal of so many PFK makes the probability that 4 masons are also PFK quite remote. Also also, if the Masons were to be PFK, the lynch burden on the Town would be ridiculously high (unbalanced). That's my long way of saying the Masons are Baddies; but protective roles are right to target non-Masons.
ETA: Reading the thread updates - it looks like brewha protecting storyteller on Night Two is also consistent with a protective role. Koldanar died on Night One, so the connection with storyteller might be a good reason for a doctor to target storyteller on Night Two. Also, it looks like storyteller is thinking along the same lines that I am (Maybe).
|
|
|
Post by sachertorte on Apr 15, 2008 8:06:22 GMT -5
<snipped> Right now I'm 85% convinced Brewha is scum. He stayed out of the Kat thing, and I'm pretty sure that at least one scum would. He only ever seems to appear when there's a bandwagon about, and his views don't ever seem to match mine. Since I'm more and more sure that mine are, on the whole, justified, that leaves me with the opinion that either he's very bad, or he's deliberately lying. I still think we need to confirm Ryjae this round, but next round I suggest Brewha as a target. I was actually agreeing with molefan up to this last paragraph which is completely bogus. The idea that brewha has to be scum because brewha has different conclusions than molefan is just wrong. Maybe brewha is scum (I don't think so, but I could be wrong). But maybe molefan is wrong. Molefan offers that either brewha is dumb or scum, which is insulting. molefan should at least acknowledge that he could be wrong and brewha is correct. When did being wrong equate to being scum? When did being right equate to being Town? That post really annoyed me. I will say that brewha's relative quietness is a valid point against him.
|
|
|
Post by CatInASuit on Apr 17, 2008 3:36:49 GMT -5
It's so good to see Idle Thoughts back on form again. Welcome Back Idle Thoughts
|
|
|
Post by Idle Thoughts on Apr 17, 2008 4:31:35 GMT -5
Awww, thank you CIAS.
|
|
|
Post by ryjae on Apr 18, 2008 17:02:35 GMT -5
*looks around* Looks roomy in here!
|
|
Merestil Haye
FGM
Grudge Keeper
[on:Slumming it in the Middle-Earth][of:In the halls of Manw
Posts: 1,077
[ Exalt | Smite ]
Karma:
|
Post by Merestil Haye on Apr 18, 2008 17:15:30 GMT -5
Yep. Plenty of space. You can have this hat back now.
|
|
|
Post by ryjae on Apr 18, 2008 17:21:04 GMT -5
I tried like mad to get the stupid vote off me. The old reversal didn't work so well for my ultimate live longer plan. Thanks for the hat back... now if I can have my life back all would be well in the land of the Bat!
|
|
|
Post by sachertorte on Apr 22, 2008 8:58:07 GMT -5
Actually, I thought you were pretty close to getting Blaster Master lynched instead. Then you admitted to lying and lied again badly. Stick to the first lie. They hadn't actually caught you in a strong inconsistency, just something weird and possibly non-sensical. But they didn't know anything until you fessed up.
|
|
|
Post by sachertorte on Apr 22, 2008 9:05:07 GMT -5
I don't understand storyteller's problem. I'm skimming, so I might have missed something. The mason lies are perfectly understandable. Perhaps poorly executed, but the motivation and reason for doing so is quite apparent.
Obviously the masons wanted to keep the fact that they could communicate privately a secret. molefan misspoke and was getting grilled over it. One could argue that he could have confessed that masons a can talk privately, but if I were Town, I would have lynched him, since Mason talking is suspiciously similar to scum talking. In my opinion, the masons were absolutely right to keep this secret.
Switching roles between NAF and Smurf was again the correct play. Protecting the powerrole with a simple lie should not be a problem. The Town is not harmed by the lie, and when the lie is reveal it should be obvious as to why the lie occurred. I don't see how anything the masons have done can be interpreted as anti-town.
Bizarre.
|
|
Merestil Haye
FGM
Grudge Keeper
[on:Slumming it in the Middle-Earth][of:In the halls of Manw
Posts: 1,077
[ Exalt | Smite ]
Karma:
|
Post by Merestil Haye on Apr 22, 2008 10:46:21 GMT -5
Molefan's background is (iirc) a game set where players are permitted to talk privately. The GO actually creates AIM accounts for all participants in the game, and expects the players to chat among themselves (but only on these accounts). He probably saw the Mason board as some dramatic restriction of player communication.
The other issue is NAF's admission of a Mason win condition, something about which speculation was rampant in the early game. The Penguin withheld that knowledge from his piratical masons - presumably so their denials came across as genuine.
To be honest, I'd be putting large chunks of salt on anything any of the Masons say if I were still in the game, simply because they've been caught in no less than three lies.
|
|
|
Post by sachertorte on Apr 22, 2008 12:41:57 GMT -5
The way I see it, giving Masons a hidden win condition that is UNKNOWABLE by town is bad game design. If there were to be a different win condition for the Masons it would need to be spelled out explicitly or at the very least, there must be some in-game mechanism from which the Town could determine this fact. Masons have died, and nothing revealed other than they are Mason Baddies. The case should be closed at this point. Anything else is destructive paranoia.
Now if the Penguin has some bizarre PFK win condition, then the game was poorly designed and strongly abused the term "Mason."
Gadarene's game on the SDMB also abused the term "Mason" as well, but that game was up front about it.
|
|
RoOsh
FGM
Former BatMod
[on:Wanna see a magic trick?][of:See You, Space Cowboy....]
Posts: 284
[ Exalt | Smite ]
Karma:
|
Post by RoOsh on Apr 22, 2008 20:53:15 GMT -5
The way I see it, giving Masons a hidden win condition that is UNKNOWABLE by town is bad game design. How is it different than a Survivor role or any other role that is not "townie" or "scum" in alignment? And who said its unknowable?
|
|
|
Post by sachertorte on Apr 23, 2008 11:36:31 GMT -5
Masons have a very specific meaning in Mafia. Subverting that meaning without a mechanism for knowing that Mason != Town would be a poor game mechanic.
Survivor role is entirely different from Mason as Masons have a strong pro-town connotation that can be verified by the death of one of the Masons. Survivor is generally alone and cannot establish "confirmed town" status on its own.
I had no idea whether or not a mason had a hidden win condition at the time I posted previously. If that is indeed the case, I don't know whether or not that information is knowable via non-death mechanisms. So if there exists at least one Mason with a non-Town win condition, and this fact is knowable by some mechanism then my statement about it being bad game design doesn't apply then does it?
|
|
RoOsh
FGM
Former BatMod
[on:Wanna see a magic trick?][of:See You, Space Cowboy....]
Posts: 284
[ Exalt | Smite ]
Karma:
|
Post by RoOsh on Apr 23, 2008 12:39:17 GMT -5
Touche'
|
|
|
Post by sachertorte on Apr 28, 2008 16:21:55 GMT -5
I'm happy to see that storyteller's "irrational" behavior regarding Masons was strategy and not really what he thought.
And storyteller is correct. All PFK need to die. If there really is a PFK out there who can "win with the town" then labeling them PFK was a silly mislabeling that could not possibly be discerned by the Town.
Speed Lynch!!! Get this puppy running.
|
|
Merestil Haye
FGM
Grudge Keeper
[on:Slumming it in the Middle-Earth][of:In the halls of Manw
Posts: 1,077
[ Exalt | Smite ]
Karma:
|
Post by Merestil Haye on Apr 28, 2008 17:06:18 GMT -5
Methinks Today runs at about 2* normal speed. Dusk is in just under 50 hours instead of being four days away.
|
|
|
Post by sachertorte on Apr 29, 2008 8:55:36 GMT -5
Kill now!
|
|
Merestil Haye
FGM
Grudge Keeper
[on:Slumming it in the Middle-Earth][of:In the halls of Manw
Posts: 1,077
[ Exalt | Smite ]
Karma:
|
Post by Merestil Haye on Apr 29, 2008 9:50:43 GMT -5
Well, we are now in countdown mode - Sinjin started the clock at 1:31pm BST.
But yes, methinks when they start singing songs by people I don't know1 then it's time to euthanise the Day.
Put us out of it's misery.
1ETA : It turns out I've seen a video of one of his songs, once. Something called D&D. I laughed at it.
I just remembered his name.
|
|
RoOsh
FGM
Former BatMod
[on:Wanna see a magic trick?][of:See You, Space Cowboy....]
Posts: 284
[ Exalt | Smite ]
Karma:
|
Post by RoOsh on Apr 29, 2008 13:23:50 GMT -5
*nod* Getting the game into hurry-up mode is tricky though.... I don't want to shortchange people, but yeah.... Maybe in the future I should make the 24 hour clock, into a 12 hour one during Hurry up mode.
|
|
Merestil Haye
FGM
Grudge Keeper
[on:Slumming it in the Middle-Earth][of:In the halls of Manw
Posts: 1,077
[ Exalt | Smite ]
Karma:
|
Post by Merestil Haye on Apr 29, 2008 13:58:21 GMT -5
Sounds fair. Everything else has been halved.
|
|
|
Post by sachertorte on Apr 29, 2008 14:39:40 GMT -5
I think other games had an insta-lynch criterion. That sometimes works out well. I'm just glad that the notion more time = good for town has been abandoned.
Maybe 50%+1 starts the countdown clock and 75%+1 is an insta-lynch? or even 100% - 1?
|
|
|
Post by sachertorte on Apr 29, 2008 15:40:13 GMT -5
Am I correct in remembering that Town has only mislynched once in this game? A Town win should be a lock at this point.
|
|
Merestil Haye
FGM
Grudge Keeper
[on:Slumming it in the Middle-Earth][of:In the halls of Manw
Posts: 1,077
[ Exalt | Smite ]
Karma:
|
Post by Merestil Haye on Apr 29, 2008 18:36:47 GMT -5
Day 1 : Kat. (Do-Gooder) Day 2 : Atarus (Baddie) Day 3 : Santo Rugger : (PFK) Day 4 : Drainbead (Do-Gooder) Day 5 : Ryjae (PFK) Day 6 : TDPats (Do-Gooder) Day 7 : Hawkeyeop (Do-Gooder)
Looks like it.
However, he Joker took out two Baddies and another has been Modkilled; so the position is a little closer than the lynch record would indicate.
|
|
|
Post by sachertorte on Apr 30, 2008 8:46:21 GMT -5
Well it shouldn't. Town only mislynching once out of seven chances should put the Town in an incredibly powerful position. Cookies's mod-kill negates one blocked kill. The Joker taking out a Baddie negates the other no-kill night. Also, The Joker took out a PFK for the Town.
At this point it shouldn't matter who Town lynches and in what order. By my count Town should have at least two mislynches to play with. I can't see a game where town lynches correctly 8 out of 10 times and loses.
|
|
|
Post by CatInASuit on May 1, 2008 9:47:52 GMT -5
In Pleonast's game, the town could have lynched perfectly and still lost the game.
The problems set in when the the scum factions start to cross kill.
In this game the biggest problem for the Do-Gooders was actually losing the Two PFK S/Ks.
That and the fact that the town has played really well.
|
|
|
Post by sachertorte on May 1, 2008 11:26:34 GMT -5
In Pleonast's game, the town could have lynched perfectly and still lost the game. I consider that a flaw in Pleonast's set-up. Town mislynched once (I think), and nearly lost. I guess I should not say that no-mislynch leading to a town loss should never happen, but if it does, it should be from very slim circumstances. I don't know if that applies to Pleonast's set-up. I was mindful of this for 3 Kingdoms; technically Town could have lynched perfectly and still lost, but the events leading to such a situation were improbable. Similarly, The Conspiracy was weird in that the Vicar failed to block the Necromancer in four-ish chances, which was also improbable. I have no clue about the setup for Batman. After the setup is known, we can look at the situation better and see if Town was afforded enough leeway to reasonably win.
|
|
|
Post by CatInASuit on May 1, 2008 12:34:02 GMT -5
In Pleonast's game, the town could have lynched perfectly and still lost the game. I consider that a flaw in Pleonast's set-up. Town mislynched once (I think), and nearly lost. I guess I should not say that no-mislynch leading to a town loss should never happen, but if it does, it should be from very slim circumstances. I think the difference is that poor town play by each of the power roles could lead to a loss. Don't forget the town was only supposed to have a 25% chance of winning. 1 mislynch should have been enough to put them right on the edge. In that game though, crossfire helped the town more than various scum factions.
|
|
Death By Irony
FGM
The Former Mandate of Heaven/Current Gastard Night Mod
I'm my own mind-altering substance!
Posts: 109
[ Exalt | Smite ]
Karma:
|
Post by Death By Irony on May 2, 2008 11:25:29 GMT -5
*grumbles mutters*
Talk about being stuck between a rock and a hard place.
Grr.
I'm something of a sore loser, so I'll be a little prickly until I can get over it.
If Rysto turns out Do Gooder I'm going to be SO FUCKING PISSED.
|
|
|
Post by sachertorte on May 2, 2008 12:25:06 GMT -5
So a not malicious PFK is essentially a Miller? But with a bizarre win condition? Perhaps a Miller survivor? Geez, a Miller survivor! Ugh. I feel for you DBI.
|
|
RoOsh
FGM
Former BatMod
[on:Wanna see a magic trick?][of:See You, Space Cowboy....]
Posts: 284
[ Exalt | Smite ]
Karma:
|
Post by RoOsh on May 2, 2008 13:49:00 GMT -5
No. A non Malicious PFK is a survivor. Malicious = just what it says on the label. Lethal.
|
|