RoOsh
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[on:Wanna see a magic trick?][of:See You, Space Cowboy....]
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Post by RoOsh on May 2, 2008 13:50:09 GMT -5
A survivor should NEVER be a "vanilla townie" if they can win with the scum. The Town needs some method of finding them out and lynching them if they feel like it. That's why "miller survivor" is redundant.
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Post by sachertorte on May 2, 2008 13:58:44 GMT -5
Well, I don't have the benefit of actually knowing what the setup is, but my interpretation is that DBI needed to survive to the end to win, but would be investigated as non-Town.
A traditional survivor needs to live to the end, but investigates as Town so that avoiding a lynch doesn't become ridiculously hard. A miller is going to get lynched, but at least a miller can win with the Town after being lynched. A survivor loses the moment she is lynched so making DBI investigate as scum set her up to fail. The part that I'm fuzzy on is whether or not the Town needed to lynch DBI to win. If they did, then labeling DBI PFK was appropriate since doing otherwise would suck for the Town. If they didn't, then labeling DBI PFK is a bit misleading to Town. Either way, DBI did remarkably well for such a hard role to play. At least that's how I'm interpreting the situation so far.
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Post by sachertorte on May 2, 2008 14:00:20 GMT -5
A survivor should NEVER be a "vanilla townie" if they can win with the scum. Why do you feel this is the case?
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Post by sachertorte on May 2, 2008 14:09:02 GMT -5
That's why "miller survivor" is redundant. How I see them as different: Survivor: Must survive to the end of the game to win. Miller Survivor: Must survive to the end of the game to win, and investigates as Scum. The latter is much harder to achieve.
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RoOsh
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Post by RoOsh on May 2, 2008 14:12:29 GMT -5
I tend to view Survivors as 3rd Party Roles. www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=SurvivorAnd since in this game 3rd Party roles had their own label, it easily applied. But Survivors always carry a risk as there are 2 sorts of them: 1. The Douchebag survivors- i hate these guys. These are the ones, who if alive would NEGATE All other win conditions, and they win first and foremost. Ie: If this person is alive, no one, scum nor town, wins and this singular person Wins instead. This is what I'm used to as the "survivor" mentality. I hate survivors for this reason, because there's always the risk they can steal your win, and you want them dead thusly. Because if they were just odd balls, they'd be powerless millers. But by the definition "Survivor" there's an inherent risk that this player has a stake in staying alive- but at What cost? 2. It's like you said, having Millers with their own win condition would be unfair if NO ONE else could discover said role clause somehow. Same with Survivors in my Book. There needs to be SOME way to Identify a player as a Survivor. So the survivor player has a very very hard job, because they must avoid cops, scum, and town lynches. It's a very tough role. *In this game, Dotchan was a survivor that won with the group though, however, she would win with scum OR Town. That's the sort of annoying little thing that becomes worrisome to me as a player. As how can I trust them to not be a "Douche Survivor"? I can't. Thusly, if I ever encounter a survivor, I'd want them Vigged, or killed off asap just because I can't trust them at all- they'd not care about their votes and such, because they just want the quickest out. That's the problem with survivors. Hence they're in my book DIFFERENT than a "Vanilla Townie Survivor". If there was a Vanilla role that needed to be alive at the end of the game, I'd give it a different role name than "Vanilla Survivor", as that "survivor" label carries with it a 3rd party alignment in my book. A new label would be made for the Vanilla Townie: ie: A Selfish townie or an Atheist Townie *No belief in an afterlife, etc.... But I'd make their role different than a Vanilla Survivor label, ESPECIALLY because survivors can win usually with ANYONE- so in a game like this, the survivor could have won with the Joker, The Scum, CiaS, The Town, the other PFK, etc.... There were tons of choices- that's why she's got the PFK label, as she can win with ANYONE, and that's a huge benefit.
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Post by sachertorte on May 2, 2008 14:34:53 GMT -5
I think my point is that investigation of DBI could make her role more knowable. If DBI investigates as Scum, then the reasonable conclusion is her win condition is exclusive (she's working against the Town). If DBI were to investigate as Town, then the reasonable conclusion is her win condition is non-exclusive (she is innocuous to the Town).
By having DBI be innocuous and investigating as scum, there is a disconnect in the logic. Town essentially wasted a lynch on DBI when they didn't have to... i.e. DBI is a Miller survivor.
BTW, a Miller with a win condition counter to the town and/or scum is discoverable by definition.
You also state "There needs to be SOME way to Identify a player as a Survivor." Why do you feel this way? I agree if a survivor wins alone, then it is probably wise that a mechanism be provided to discover this information; but if the survivor's win condition does not interfere with anyone else's win condition, then why is it absolutely necessary to be able to ID the survivor as such? Everyone else can play merrily along independent of that knowledge.
"There were tons of choices- that's why she's got the PFK label, as she can win with ANYONE, and that's a huge benefit." I disagree with the level of benefit afforded to the survivor in winning with anyone else. She had to be ALIVE, which is the hardest thing to do in these games. The game started with what, 24 people? How many do you think it will end with? I would say not more than 6, more likely 3 or 4. Adding the need to avoid investigation made her job that much harder, and for no gameplay reason. Town didn't need to know DBI was a survivor, in fact knowing hurt the Town as well as hurt DBI.
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Death By Irony
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Post by Death By Irony on May 2, 2008 14:41:06 GMT -5
It more or less became impossible for me to win once I investigated as PFK, and probably even more so once I claimed PFK. (Incidentally, I did it because I felt that to be a pro-Town action. Sorry, Scum, but I couldn't help you guys win after I was outed. And you guys are assholes for pushing my bandwagon. )
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RoOsh
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[on:Wanna see a magic trick?][of:See You, Space Cowboy....]
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Post by RoOsh on May 2, 2008 22:39:32 GMT -5
By having DBI be innocuous and investigating as scum, there is a disconnect in the logic. Town essentially wasted a lynch on DBI when they didn't have to... i.e. DBI is a Miller survivor. This actually may be the disconnect. She never came up as "Scum". It's just that the TOWN has been treating said players as scum. That was something unforeseen by Us and rather amusing.... This whole hatred of PFKs, i was curious to see what'd happen, and now i know. But yeah- the PFK's do NOT equal Scum. It's just the Town has treated them as such. Claiming PFK SHOULD have not killed her, but with this Town and this mindset sunken into them, they killed her anyways. :shrug: That i couldn't help.
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Post by sachertorte on May 3, 2008 15:37:21 GMT -5
I think that might be a bit short-sighted. In your mind you seem to have expected town to accept PFK as potentially innocuous despite having win conditions that specifically address the need for killing PFKs. How did you expect the Town to treat PFK? Their behavior is entirely logical and consistent with the information given to them.
Town needs to kill all Do-Gooders and "malicious" PFK. DBI turns up PFK. Town lynches DBI. How can you say DBI claiming PFK should not have led to Town killing her?
I'm flummoxed. Just because something was unforeseen by you doesn't mean that Town is wrong or illogical.
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Death By Irony
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Post by Death By Irony on May 3, 2008 15:54:03 GMT -5
Yeah. Being unable to convince the town that I wasn't malicious sucked.
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RoOsh
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Post by RoOsh on May 3, 2008 20:37:39 GMT -5
True.
Then again, I/we never really balanced this game from the start, there were TONS of things that would go wrong for a variety of different players and reasons. This would be yours. Bummer.
BTW, do you want to go to the spoilers Dotchan?
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Death By Irony
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The Former Mandate of Heaven/Current Gastard Night Mod
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Post by Death By Irony on May 4, 2008 17:10:25 GMT -5
Nah, game is close enough to the end that I don't mind waiting.
Meanwhile, the Town hanged Blaster Master real quick.
I wish they could have done that yesterDay, but eh, if wishes were horses...
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Post by sachertorte on May 5, 2008 8:26:27 GMT -5
When I first read the storyteller didn't protect last night, I thought, gee that's weird. Maybe someone should look into storyteller a bit more, there is a godfather milling about somewhere right? But then I remembered Koldanar and the connection to storyteller. Doesn't make sense for Koldanar to be Town and storyteller to be a Godfather type.
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Post by Hawkmod on May 5, 2008 10:49:34 GMT -5
It more or less became impossible for me to win once I investigated as PFK, and probably even more so once I claimed PFK. (Incidentally, I did it because I felt that to be a pro-Town action. Sorry, Scum, but I couldn't help you guys win after I was outed. And you guys are assholes for pushing my bandwagon. ) Yeah, the claiming of PFK didn't work out too well for me either. Can I ask why you made the Pro-Town action? Was there a particular reason you wanted the town to win?
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Post by tdpatriots12 on May 5, 2008 13:43:04 GMT -5
Just because, here's a link to the new The Dark Knight trailer in glorious Quicktime HD.
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Post by sachertorte on May 5, 2008 15:46:55 GMT -5
I don't understand Blaster Master's gambit. Fine, he's admitted to being scum. So what? He hasn't given Town a good reason to lynch someone else instead of him. He's scum! He needs to be lynched!
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Death By Irony
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The Former Mandate of Heaven/Current Gastard Night Mod
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Post by Death By Irony on May 6, 2008 20:45:55 GMT -5
Was there a particular reason you wanted the town to win? 1) Like I said in my claim, I suck at lying and I may have ended up being lynched sooner just to test whatever fakeclaim I could have come up with. (I was going to claim tracker. Thanks a lot, hawkeyeop. *shakes fist*) 2) Habit, I guess. I was playing as Paranoid Townie most of the game, and the Town did look like it had slightly better chances.
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Post by storyteller0910 on May 8, 2008 13:33:01 GMT -5
Claiming PFK SHOULD have not killed her, but with this Town and this mindset sunken into them, they killed her anyways. :shrug: That i couldn't help. We had that mindset sunken in because we had no way to know differently. You said in our role PMs that PFK had to die. We killed a veritable army of PFK, and they were all anti-Town. Rysto's read on DBI was no different from any other PFK reading. How on Earth were we to have guessed what you did here?
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RoOsh
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Post by RoOsh on May 8, 2008 13:37:43 GMT -5
:chuckles: Yeah.
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RoOsh
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Post by RoOsh on May 8, 2008 13:38:11 GMT -5
My 2nd time I moderate, I'll try and fix that. This was my first time ever doing anything like this!
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Post by CatInASuit on May 8, 2008 13:46:20 GMT -5
Claiming PFK SHOULD have not killed her, but with this Town and this mindset sunken into them, they killed her anyways. :shrug: That i couldn't help. We had that mindset sunken in because we had no way to know differently. You said in our role PMs that PFK had to die. We killed a veritable army of PFK, and they were all anti-Town. Rysto's read on DBI was no different from any other PFK reading. How on Earth were we to have guessed what you did here? Actually, the role PMs said "and any other threats maliciously Playing For Keeps "DBI was not playing a malicious PFK, although I think it should have said that in her PM. Also the Riddler was not a malicious PFK.
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Post by Høøpy Frøød on May 8, 2008 14:11:20 GMT -5
Actually, the role PMs said "and any other threats maliciously Playing For Keeps "DBI was not playing a malicious PFK, although I think it should have said that in her PM. Also the Riddler was not a malicious PFK. True, but how does town know this? Do we take them at their word? And saying Riddler wasn't malicious isn't quite true, you, if anyone, are aware of this. He was a "King of the World" role. He would steal the win from everybody. The only one who could trump him was you, who was going to shiv him should you both make it to the endgame. However, all he had to do was win his own game before that point, and the rest of us, including you, would be fighting for second place as he left you behind and waltzed his way out of the asylum. So really, the only safe PFK was DBI, and there was no way to determine this. We had alignment detectives and name detectives but we had no role/goal detectives. It would have been to any side's advantage to have one since a lynch/kill wouldn't have to be wasted to find out.
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Post by CatInASuit on May 8, 2008 14:21:14 GMT -5
This is now straying into matters best left until the game is over and all can be revealed.
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Post by sachertorte on May 8, 2008 14:28:57 GMT -5
The game can't operate on semantics. Labeling DBI "not malicious" is just that, a label. Why was she labelled PFK? If she's not malicious, why is she PFK? The game mechanic data is all that matters. If the game mechanics don't reveal the correct data, then calling DBI a rose is simply a facade. If we make a game and label some a Doctor, but exclusively give him the power that he knows that X and Y are also pro-Town, is the role a Doctor or a Mason? Which matters more, the label or the function?
Actually, that would be a fun theme. Mix up the labels and see what happens.
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Death By Irony
FGM
The Former Mandate of Heaven/Current Gastard Night Mod
I'm my own mind-altering substance!
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Post by Death By Irony on May 8, 2008 14:33:14 GMT -5
Well, I don't really blame the Mods. I probably could have fudged my way into the endgame if I hadn't gotten investigated, or if I were a better liar.
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Post by NAF1138 on May 12, 2008 10:17:54 GMT -5
Hey, I go on vacation and come back dead. Typical. Stupid scum killing me. Send me to the spoiler boards! (though it was interesting reading through this board, there doesn't seem to be much action going on here.)
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Post by NAF1138 on May 12, 2008 13:15:11 GMT -5
Well, the mods haven't let me into the spoiler boards yet, so I might as well hang here.
How does everyone think the town is doing? Will they be able to pull this off without mole's vote?
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Post by sachertorte on May 12, 2008 13:17:55 GMT -5
If there are 2 scum left, then the game is over. If there is one scum left, then Mole's vote is not needed.
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Post by storyteller0910 on May 12, 2008 13:27:04 GMT -5
This game is never going to end.
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Post by NAF1138 on May 12, 2008 13:28:42 GMT -5
If there are 2 scum left, then the game is over. If there is one scum left, then Mole's vote is not needed. Not needed true, but it would be nice to have in case of emergency. Still, is there actually any chance that the town could blow it at this point? I am guessing no, but I haven't been spoiled yet so I could be wrong. (Mostly I am avoiding the pile of work I have on my desk. I am not ready for vacation to be over yet.)
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