RoOsh
FGM
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[on:Wanna see a magic trick?][of:See You, Space Cowboy....]
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Day One
May 26, 2008 20:14:59 GMT -5
Post by RoOsh on May 26, 2008 20:14:59 GMT -5
How would a game with two groups of scum work though? Alternating night kills, or double night kills? That seems kind of odd to me. Two groups of scum have been done (Feel free to read up on the China game we had here run by Death by Irony). In that one, we had 3 scum groups, made up of 2 players each, and 3 doctors, each who could only protect against one of the groups. And there was also a Vig, and a Full Doctor that could protect against any group. It was a very tricky game, and ended up i think in a Tie between two of the scum groups. But that one always had 3 kills occurring during the Night- the scum groups would all make "simultaneous" night kills, and the moderator had some way of working out which kill went through if there was an overlap. But having multiple groups has been done, and in larger games, it is highly possible. It's just as if there was a Vigilante, or multiple SKs (see the Batman Game- In that one there were about 3 SKs, and a scum group and a Vig as well- and they all had the chance of killing successfully at night, the game in fact had a crazy unbalanced mechanism that could have led to about 14 deaths within 2 Days of playing the game, which thankfully didn't occur, and was a balancing issue). I think future games should be more balanced, and atarus certainly has expressed an interest in having this game balanced on the forums (and gotten help with that), so I doubt (i hope) that there's some crazy doomsday mechanism built into the game that could cause similar problems. But again, you don't really get a sense of how many killers you're dealing with until (and if) you wake up the next morning and see the damage that's been done.
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Day One
May 26, 2008 20:15:33 GMT -5
Post by Rysto on May 26, 2008 20:15:33 GMT -5
But if we know they're dead, and alla sudden they start posting again... I can't see scum motivation to possess a dead player. Maybe it can happen if a player is possessed by one scum group and killed by another the same Night? It has nothing to do with the game. You can Exalt players and add one to their karma. You can Smite players to subtract one from their karma. It's just a feature of the boards, and has nothing to do with our game, so Exalt and Smite to your heart's content.
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RoOsh
FGM
Former BatMod
[on:Wanna see a magic trick?][of:See You, Space Cowboy....]
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Day One
May 26, 2008 20:17:35 GMT -5
Post by RoOsh on May 26, 2008 20:17:35 GMT -5
What does it mean that my Karma is 1 now? Does this have anything to do with the game? It's got nothing to do with the game, just a feature of these boards that kinda came with the boards. I like smiting people or praising them so that the numbers end in 3's or 7's. So yeah, don't really worry about that in terms of gameplay- though it's a great way to relieve stress at times. Angry at a player calling you out? Smite him! You can do it once every hour. But yeah, don't let that get to you, the Mods can add/subtract those things at will.
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RoOsh
FGM
Former BatMod
[on:Wanna see a magic trick?][of:See You, Space Cowboy....]
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Day One
May 26, 2008 20:19:59 GMT -5
Post by RoOsh on May 26, 2008 20:19:59 GMT -5
But if we know they're dead, and alla sudden they start posting again... I can't see scum motivation to possess a dead player. Maybe it can happen if a player is possessed by one scum group and killed by another the same Night? Then who's side would they join? The possessors or the killer? That sounds overly complicated. I see it more of a recruiting thing full on- just kill and recruit the dude all at once by the same group. Unless like if both groups hit the same guy, that guy becomes some crazy 3rd group on his own (PFK), that'd be pretty nifty and completely out there. :takes notes for future games:
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Day One
May 26, 2008 20:30:00 GMT -5
Post by Rysto on May 26, 2008 20:30:00 GMT -5
I'm not even sure if I believe any of this, but what I was getting at is that maybe there's two scum groups: a group of Type 1 demons and a group of Type 2 demons. The Type 1 demons are typical mafia and night kill. The Type 2 demons can recruit, but not kill. For balance purposes, the recruitment will succeed(and the target will not die) even if the Type 1 demons night-kill the target.
Performing an exorcism on a Type 2 demon will have different effects depending on whether the demon was targeted with a night-kill or not. If they were, they die. If they weren't targeted, they return to being human.
But like I said, I don't really believe this, it was just idle speculation.
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Day One
May 26, 2008 20:34:09 GMT -5
Post by KidVermicious on May 26, 2008 20:34:09 GMT -5
If I had to venture a guess, I'd say the holy water implies a cop, but one only useful against certain scum (corporeal). The fact that there is a Scum Type 1 out there though means a cop that relies on holy water-based investigations won't be terribly effective at confirming townies. If he gets no result, all it means is that his target isn't Scum Type 2. So even though holy water sounds like a cop ability, I'm not sure how well it fits into the color. Rereading, this hit me. I think it means there's very very few type1, one or two max, or we've got more than one kinda cop. The idea of an undetectable type1 sketches me out.
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RoOsh
FGM
Former BatMod
[on:Wanna see a magic trick?][of:See You, Space Cowboy....]
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Day One
May 26, 2008 20:46:19 GMT -5
Post by RoOsh on May 26, 2008 20:46:19 GMT -5
The idea of an undetectable type1 sketches me out. Well, the intro post did say Killing them makes them detectable. That to me sounds as good as any way to find a Godfather type role. So maybe group 1 demons are in charge of group 2 demons? Not sure on that one, but it's something to think about. Because i think there are probably more than 1 demons. So could we have a Godfather/Backup Godfather role being set up there? Or just straight up multiple Godfathers? THAT'S a worrisome thought to me.
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Day One
May 26, 2008 20:59:24 GMT -5
Post by Rysto on May 26, 2008 20:59:24 GMT -5
One thing to consider is that the book was just Father Redford's journal. So just because he didn't know a way to distinguish Type 1 demons from humans doesn't mean that it can't be done.
BTW Atarus, did you/Father Redford intend to say that Type 2 demons are incorporeal?
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Day One
May 26, 2008 21:02:49 GMT -5
Post by KidVermicious on May 26, 2008 21:02:49 GMT -5
Well, the intro post did say Killing them makes them detectable. That to me sounds as good as any way to find a Godfather type role. So maybe group 1 demons are in charge of group 2 demons? Not sure on that one, but it's something to think about. Because i think there are probably more than 1 demons. So could we have a Godfather/Backup Godfather role being set up there? Or just straight up multiple Godfathers? THAT'S a worrisome thought to me. Is more than one Godfather type common? I could see a one-at-a-time mechanic, in an apprentice becomes the master sorta deal, but more than one or two simultaneously un-Investigatable baddies gives me the heebiejeebies. Based on the color, I don't see a type2 taking over for a type1, though - one is "tangible", and the other is (in?)"corporeal". Thats reads more like the mod is hinting at two separate factions. If there is just one baddie faction, mebbe we'll type1s making the type2s, tho, just to screw with town - cuz if type2s are going to recruit for themselves, they have to be able to talk to eachother to agree on a target. But if a townie gets possessed then exorcised, they've got info on the rest of 'em to share with the rest of us. So I think we've got 2 kinds of type2s (originals and converted), or type1s make the type2s. Is there any way to prevent a possessed/exorcised townie from revealing info gained about his ex-scumbuddies? Other than the honor system?
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Day One
May 26, 2008 21:15:15 GMT -5
Post by Rysto on May 26, 2008 21:15:15 GMT -5
I've never seen a game with more than one Godfather. The thing is, the most valuable thing that a Cop can do is confirm Townies, not out scum. A Godfather throws a monkey wrench into that by introducing uncertainty into a Townie result. Having multiple Godfathers really makes a Cop a whole lot less useful.
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RoOsh
FGM
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[on:Wanna see a magic trick?][of:See You, Space Cowboy....]
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Day One
May 26, 2008 22:25:55 GMT -5
Post by RoOsh on May 26, 2008 22:25:55 GMT -5
Batman had a backup Godfather, but only 1 GF at a time. I've seen games with Multiple scum FACTIONS, each with thier own GF, which could be possible, but that'd sorta imply that the D1 and D2 group maybe are mixed, but they're working together? Like there are a group of D1 and D2 dudes on a side, and another set with its own GF and D1 and type D2 dudes on their side? That seems overly complicated to me. But it's possible. Though I'm more of the mind- there could be multiple factions, each with their own God Fathers. Or that D1 and D2 are competing factions maybe? Is there any way to prevent a possessed/exorcised townie from revealing info gained about his ex-scumbuddies? Other than the honor system? This is what I was saying on the other game running with my mentions of "Vampire". In that game, there is mention of a Vampire type role, one where he can recruit townies to join his team. However, the rules are vague, and it implied somewhere that a recruited vampire would go back to normal (ie: Town) once the head vampire is killed. So there was a huge discussion there on Day 1 on whether there's even a point to the head Vampire trying to recruit anyone, because they could just simply sell him out by telling the town "hey, X is the head Vamp. Lynch him and I become a town again". This was exacerbated by the situation that a few townies said "hey, it would kinda be fun to play as a vampire, I wouldn't mind if I was a vampire for a while", and that led to accusations and other such reasonings. I'm assuming Atarus saw the possibilities of those issues arising As he IS playing in that game, and did contribute in there, so he IS aware of the Vampire Discussion, and since it started before this game, he's probably had time to "work out the kinks" in his own game so to speak. Unless he's a Gastard, straight up, and just wanted to keep something like that in here.... Which just on a personal level, I don't think of him as being likely to do. He's likely to be a Gastard, but not a Copying Gastard, he's clever enough to come up with crap on his own rather than just blatantly steal a mechanism from a Current game.
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Day One
May 26, 2008 22:51:38 GMT -5
Post by KidVermicious on May 26, 2008 22:51:38 GMT -5
Ok, so not to get too meta-gamey, but thats kinda what I was hoping we could assume.
So... 1) Looks like type1 is transparent to the one investigation method we know about.
2) Based on that, we can posit another type of investigation, or very few type1s.
3) Looks like type2 can flip townies.
4) Looks like type2 can be flipped by townies. 4a - including the players that start the game as type2? 4b - do any players start the game as type2?
5) Based on 3 and 4, type2 probably don't know who eachother are, and so probably aren't talking to eachother.
6) I don't see it likely that a single faction has recruitment and killing powers (feel free to disagree, please!). So there's probably at least 2 scum factions.
Are all the above reasonable assumptions? I don't wanna take it any further for fear of reaching conclusions based on faulty assumptions.
And on that note, I'll be glad for tuesday, when I hope everybody is here and we can start talking for real, instead of dissecting the color post to death.
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Day One
May 26, 2008 22:54:31 GMT -5
Post by KidVermicious on May 26, 2008 22:54:31 GMT -5
NETA - regarding point 5 above, I meant to add "assuming that the mod hasn't come up with a method to prevent a flipped player from selling out their new team".
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RoOsh
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[on:Wanna see a magic trick?][of:See You, Space Cowboy....]
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Day One
May 26, 2008 23:23:39 GMT -5
Post by RoOsh on May 26, 2008 23:23:39 GMT -5
6) I don't see it likely that a single faction has recruitment and killing powers (feel free to disagree, please!). I disagree with this. As it's unlikely that a single faction has both powers CONTINUOUSLY throughout the game, but as I did in my Batman game, it's easy to have one shot powers that SEEM like recruitment but only occur to certain players, or certain abilities that only affect a specific player. Ie: a scum faction that might be missing a member and must "find" the member was an example i had in my game. Another one was "a specific player upon investigated another specific player will change sides/allegiance". It's not recruitment per se, but it's examples of how to have minor abilities that are SIMILAR to recruitment without actually allowing it within the game. I don't like to assume anything yet, but I'm the type to just keep all these possibilities in mind. So putting them out there like that is helpful and it shows me what others thoughts are on the various topics too. So keep it up! But I would be careful to assume X must be true or anything like that just yet. We don't have all the pieces, and we can try to guess at things, but you have to realize assumptions can lead to foolish errors, and as the saying goes, assumptions can make an Ass out of Umpires and T-ions. Poor T-ions....
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Day One
May 26, 2008 23:34:13 GMT -5
Post by hockeyguy8435 on May 26, 2008 23:34:13 GMT -5
All this talk of double groups, and recruiting, etc. Is making me very confused. I'll try reading up more on everything said again tomorrow, now I'm hitting the sack after a long day.
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Day One
May 26, 2008 23:58:56 GMT -5
Post by Greedy Smurf on May 26, 2008 23:58:56 GMT -5
*And Survivor Smurf still no new avatar? * Well I've got on for better or worse now. I'm not sure I really like him, but TD got the cool pipboy one before me so I've gone with a mutant instead.
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Day One
May 27, 2008 0:01:16 GMT -5
Post by Greedy Smurf on May 27, 2008 0:01:16 GMT -5
preview preview preview Obviously i meant *Got on e* in my first sentence above.
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Darth Sensitive
Mome Rath
With great power comes great responsibility / That's the catchphrase of Old Uncle Ben
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Day One
May 27, 2008 0:22:51 GMT -5
Post by Darth Sensitive on May 27, 2008 0:22:51 GMT -5
I don't really get the thing about demon type two recruiting. Reading it, it doesn't seem that likely to me.
Am I the only one thinking this way.
The text implies to me that one demon possesses one person. It doesn't seem to say that they would be able to take over others.
Possessed players, by my reading, would be converted back to town after being blessed with holy water.
Exorcising them seems like something that would be the secondary power of a doc or a cop style role - something that would need to not be done willy nilly.
Me, I'd keep on the lookout for subtle clues that something was afoot. If I had the power to exorcise people in conjunction with something else, I'd probably use my other ones unless I had a good reason to do otherwise.
Is anyone else understanding where I'm coming from?
Good luck to anyone out there trying to figure out the crazy set up we seem to have.
For what it's worth Atarus, I think this game will be a lot of fun to play.
Everyone else, I'm off to bed, then work early - I'll try to be back and check up on what's happening before I go, but won't be able to post till the evening.
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Day One
May 27, 2008 0:46:53 GMT -5
Post by KidVermicious on May 27, 2008 0:46:53 GMT -5
I don't really get the thing about demon type two recruiting. Reading it, it doesn't seem that likely to me. Am I the only one thinking this way. The text implies to me that one demon possesses one person. It doesn't seem to say that they would be able to take over others. *snip* We're on page 2, so I've quoted the relevant color below for context. The things that makes me think type2 can recruit are "possess human bodies" (notice the plural), and the last line, "as long as it was living when the demon possessed it". We're all alive at Day 1, so if a type2 is just a bad guy with "possessed townie" as color, why include that line? The whole paragraph is pretty obviously intended to convey opening information regarding a specific role and some game mechanics that pertain to it, so I wouldn't expect any of the wording to be useless in terms of info that can be gleaned. FWIW, I don't know what value there is in thinking this way - it certainly doesn't pertain to Day 1, and by the time it becomes relevant we'll probably have other data to consider as well. Just passing the time and getting my feet wet. ;D
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Day One
May 27, 2008 7:57:46 GMT -5
Post by Pollux Oil on May 27, 2008 7:57:46 GMT -5
BTW Atarus, did you/Father Redford intend to say that Type 2 demons are incorporeal? Yeah, that's what I/he meant. I'm going to Disneyworld today (wooooooo) so I won't be around again until late tonight. A few people still haven't read their role PMs yet, and if they still haven't by the time I get back tonight I'll give them a poke on the StraightDope/other means of communication. Also, CatinaSuit has requested to be subbed out due to real life issues. As soon as I can confirm that Blam! really wants to play in three Mafia games at once he'll be replacing Cat.
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Day One
May 27, 2008 8:12:55 GMT -5
Post by Hal Briston on May 27, 2008 8:12:55 GMT -5
Is anyone else understanding where I'm coming from? Sure am.
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Day One
May 27, 2008 8:37:48 GMT -5
Post by Tragic on May 27, 2008 8:37:48 GMT -5
All this talk of double groups, and recruiting, etc. Is making me very confused. I'll try reading up more on everything said again tomorrow, now I'm hitting the sack after a long day. You'll get used to all the speculative chatter. It took me a few game but I'm finally at that point that I understand the majority of the discussion <.< My initial impression on the descriptions of the demons was there are 2 types of demons in this game.. one with a bit more oomf and power and the other are easier to spot. Upon reading some of the discussion I'm beginning to question if there are 2 groups even or what the dynamics of human/incorporeal demon means to the game and how much is flavor and how much is setup.
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Day One
May 27, 2008 9:24:42 GMT -5
Post by Nanook on May 27, 2008 9:24:42 GMT -5
Man, that opening flavor is awesome. It makes my brain hurt, but it's nevertheless awesome.
Knowing that atarus is close to Roosh, we can expect there to be all sorts of weird roles/powers going on. Multiple scum groups would not be at all surprising to me. The first group described sure sound like they might be immune to investigation, but perhaps not. It would depend on the flavor of the detective role I think. Not knowing how the detective works, or even if there is one, we can't say for certain.
For the second group, the incorporeal one, I'm thinking more like the Necromancer from Conspiracy, with an attendant Bishop(I think it was the Bishop? I can't remember the name for sure now, the one that blocked the Necro from raising a body.) to block/undo the possession. The key difference being, it sounds like this version can possess still living players as opposed to only corpses. I'd say we have to be very careful of people that come back from death, but that strikes me as too obvious. I would expect that if there is such a mechanic associated with the demons, that there is at least one pro-town role that can raise the dead as well. Perhaps a modified Scotsman or a variant on the Chia Bingo Manager(Jesus maybe?).
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Day One
May 27, 2008 9:59:43 GMT -5
Post by The Real FCOD on May 27, 2008 9:59:43 GMT -5
Well! I, for one, am confused. I agree that based upon the color, two scum groups seem likely. I am confused by the notion of recruitment/re-recruitment, so I am not going to think about it right now. I don't like the idea lynching someone randomly on the first day, but if nobody makes a mistake toDay I'm afraid we may not have a choice... <oog> I am excited to be playing again! I forgot how fun it is. </oog> --FCOD
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Day One
May 27, 2008 10:47:41 GMT -5
Post by Hawkmod on May 27, 2008 10:47:41 GMT -5
we have to kill the "Type 2"s (the possessed) by spritzing the victims with holy water, thereby killing the demon inside. Well, I think lynching "type two" demons would work as well, just less efficiently. The use of the word back in the opening color implies to me that there is both recruitment and anti-recruitment. However, even if this the case, I don't think we should assume that anyone other then the recruiter and the recruitee knows when a recruitment or derecruitment has taken place.
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Day One
May 27, 2008 10:52:33 GMT -5
Post by NAF1138 on May 27, 2008 10:52:33 GMT -5
Hey, I'm back from the long weekend away from my computer! Thanks for only making me have to catch up on 1.5 pages. So, game setup. I like the color, it looks very cool. My first question for the mod probably has an obvious answer, but it is best to clear these things up right away so we don't waste time analyzing things that aren't of value. OH GREAT AND POWERFUL MOD, DOES THE OPENING COLOR CONTAIN CLUES RE:GAME SETUP AND ROLES OR IS IT JUST TELLING US THAT WE ARE AFTER DEAMONS. MOREOVER, SHOULD WE BE PAYING ATTENTION TO FUTURE GAME COLOR POSTS?That question leads me to my next thought. Based on my current game as well as the Batman game I have noticed something bad that we are doing collectivly (new players you are exempt from this current accusation, but might as well pay attention.) We are starting to make assumptions. This is bad. The wost type of bad, because it is the type of bad that will screw us over every time. It's hard not to make assumptions, but we really need to try to break ourselves out and start looking at things more logically. It's like Sherlock Holmes said : When you eliminate the impossible, whatever is left, no matter how improbable, must be true. Assumptions are already being made, and possibilities are being thrown out the window, and we don't KNOW that they are good assumptions. We only think they are. So,,,I think we should start making what we know lists. I know, I have said this every game since Blade Runner, but I really think we should be working on these. It will help keep us from starting to assume thing, and it will help keep the new information straight in our own heads. In Blade Runner I learned that these lists will never be usefull unless multiple people make them so we can keep each other in check, so I am asking for a volunteer or few to make these lists with me. The more people we have making these lists and posting them publicly the better off I think we will be. Right now we don't know much. We know that there are Deamons, and that there are 2 types. Everything else is speculation. Speculation is fine as long as we are clear about what is speculation and what is known fact. We also know that there are only, as of now, about 5 players actually playing the game. 17 have checked in but only a few are activly posting. This is good and bad. Good because people like me who were away (unexpectedly, but delightfully) for the holiday weekend can catch up, bad because fewer posters means less info. Lastly I want to ditto what Rysto said re: random voting. BlaM isn't in this game, so I don't know if there is going to be anyone making a case for random voting, but I think there is a better way. Realistically we will probaly lynch town on Day 1, we need to play for the longterm goal of overall win, and voting with stated reasons, ANY reason, nets us more longterm information. Ok, I think that is all the big metagamey stuff that I have to say. Back with analysis of some sort in a bit.
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Day One
May 27, 2008 11:23:02 GMT -5
Post by Rysto on May 27, 2008 11:23:02 GMT -5
What we know:
- We must kill all "evil entities" in order to win - The colour allows for two types of demons - T1 demons, according to Father Redford, are indistinguishable from humans while alive - T2 demons are incorporeal and can possess human bodies. They react to holy water and can be expelled by an exorcism.
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Day One
May 27, 2008 11:26:26 GMT -5
Post by Rysto on May 27, 2008 11:26:26 GMT -5
Oh, and this one could be important: We got our roles pretty much immediately before Day 1 started. This means that any scum groups were not able to discuss Night Zero -- so unless they can talk during the Day, this means that they haven't been able to strategise at all yet.
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Day One
May 27, 2008 11:35:08 GMT -5
Post by Nanook on May 27, 2008 11:35:08 GMT -5
Normally, I'm in favor of starting with random votes to spur discussion. But this set up seems to have enough meat to discuss just in the color and comments on the set up that there's no need to resort to random votes. Has there ever been a truly random lynch, as opposed to vote, either here or on the dope? I can't think of any.
I think Rysto has covered everything with know so far fairly well.
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Day One
May 27, 2008 11:43:15 GMT -5
Post by NAF1138 on May 27, 2008 11:43:15 GMT -5
Oh, and this one could be important: We got our roles pretty much immediately before Day 1 started. This means that any scum groups were not able to discuss Night Zero -- so unless they can talk during the Day, this means that they haven't been able to strategise at all yet. Ok, so then scum were not able to talk before Day 1. We don't know if they can talk durring the Day or not. We also don't know that the demons are seperate factions and not multiple elements of the same faction. OH GREAT AND POWERFUL MOD, WILL YOU TELL US IF THER IS ANY FACTION THAT IS ALLOWED TO DISCUSS THE GAME OUTSIDE OF THE GAME THREAD DURRING THE DAY?
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