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Day One
May 28, 2008 10:47:00 GMT -5
Post by The Real FCOD on May 28, 2008 10:47:00 GMT -5
For those of you following along and not understanding this whole back and forth, in the Three Kingdoms game, there were 3 scum factions. There was also a townie aligned doctor that could only protect against one of the three factions. Roosh was the Shu aligned doctor. However, the doctors were prohibited from role claiming. If they ever did they lost their powers immediately. Roosh was forced into claiming. He did so in a very imaginative way. You have to read it to fully grasp how well done it was. Unfortunately, he said that he hated shoes, rather than footwear, so he got stripped anyways. My impression, and the purpose of my question, is that Hal is claiming to have been possessed by a type 2 demon, the kind that can be driven out by holy water. However he apparently is prohibited from just coming out and saying so directly. Or maybe I'm misreading the whole situation. Thanks for shedding some light, Nanook. Things make a little more sense now. Here are my thoughts. The demons haven't had a chance to talk to each other in private yet, so we can rule out that they've hatched a plan to trick us. However, a single demon could try to trick us in some way, and that is what I'm worried about. It seems like Hal is trying to tell us that he is possessed, as I suggested in my scenario 2. Maybe he is, and an exorcism will flip him to the town's side. That would be convenient. Almost a little too convenient... What if Hal is lying and is trying to get our exorcist to waste his time. Or worse: what if Hal knows of a game mechanic that would expose or even kill the exorcist, should he exorcise the wrong person. Maybe Hal is a normal demon and is just hoping that a failed exorcism has negative consequences. I don't know. This all seems very suspicious to me. I having trouble believing it would be this easy for a possessed person to give hints and get flipped so easily. I don't know what we should do about it. I don't know who we should lynch. Boy, do I love (and hate) closed setups! --FCOD
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Hockey Monkey!
Borogrove
This is supposed to be a happy occasion. Let's not bicker over who killed who.
Posts: 371
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Karma:
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Day One
May 28, 2008 10:51:25 GMT -5
Post by Hockey Monkey! on May 28, 2008 10:51:25 GMT -5
What I want to know is how does Hal always get a good role? He obviously has some kind of special role here. Would he, as scum, be so blatant? Knowing Hal, I'd say maybe. He likes to have as much fun as he can squeeze out of his character. It wouldn't suprise me if he were playing as a brazen scum, but I think he's smart enough to know that it would be limiting his fun factor via death. So the WIFOM says Hal is not scum. I don't know what to think about the demons. I see a bunch of speculation, but there is so much and in so many different directions right now, that I'm overwhelmed. I don't think the moderator would have made a game where the scum could not be lynched, so all the talk of excorsism and holy water could be special abilities of a few (investigators?), but that can't be the only way to kill them. If we can't lynch them during the day, we're fucked from the start. I doubt Atarus would make a game like that. Heh, I guess I do know what to think about the demons, I just didn't know it when I started this paragraph.
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Day One
May 28, 2008 10:59:42 GMT -5
Post by The Real FCOD on May 28, 2008 10:59:42 GMT -5
What I want to know is how does Hal always get a good role? He obviously has some kind of special role here. Would he, as scum, be so blatant? Knowing Hal, I'd say maybe. He likes to have as much fun as he can squeeze out of his character. It wouldn't suprise me if he were playing as a brazen scum, but I think he's smart enough to know that it would be limiting his fun factor via death. So the WIFOM says Hal is not scum. I don't know what to think about the demons. I see a bunch of speculation, but there is so much and in so many different directions right now, that I'm overwhelmed. I don't think the moderator would have made a game where the scum could not be lynched, so all the talk of excorsism and holy water could be special abilities of a few (investigators?), but that can't be the only way to kill them. If we can't lynch them during the day, we're fucked from the start. I doubt Atarus would make a game like that. Heh, I guess I do know what to think about the demons, I just didn't know it when I started this paragraph. I'm of the opinion that the type 2/S2/incorporeal demons are not actually players, but a game mechanic/ability that attaches to a survivor. I believe that there are a number of them in possession of players right now, and that if we lynch that player, the demon will move on to another player, effectively recruiting him/her to the scum's side. However, that possessed player will not know who any other demons are, because the way to get rid of such a demon is to exorcise it, removing it from the game and returning the possessed player to the town side. Does that make sense? This is, of course, all speculation I've based on the color and movies where people are possessed by demons. --FCOD
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Day One
May 28, 2008 11:13:47 GMT -5
Post by Rysto on May 28, 2008 11:13:47 GMT -5
Hal, you say that you'd like to remove your shoes. Are we to understand that you're not able to remove your shoes on your own? That you need some help in doing so?
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Day One
May 28, 2008 11:30:08 GMT -5
Post by Nanook on May 28, 2008 11:30:08 GMT -5
There's some good information to be had here I think. IF we believe Hal, and IF my interpretation of his statements is correct, then we now know that S2 demons, the incorpreal type, started the game possessing someone. We still don't know if exorcizing Hal will cause the demon to be destroyed or if it will just move to someone else, nor do we know as of yet HOW to exorcize Hal. But it's a start.
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Day One
May 28, 2008 11:54:38 GMT -5
Post by Hal Briston on May 28, 2008 11:54:38 GMT -5
Hal, you say that you'd like to remove your shoes. Are we to understand that you're not able to remove your shoes on your own? That you need some help in doing so? I'm pretty sure (not 100% positive, but reasonably sure) that someone here has a shoehorn.
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Day One
May 28, 2008 11:58:20 GMT -5
Post by NAF1138 on May 28, 2008 11:58:20 GMT -5
There's some good information to be had here I think. IF we believe Hal, and IF my interpretation of his statements is correct, then we now know that S2 demons, the incorpreal type, started the game possessing someone. We still don't know if exorcizing Hal will cause the demon to be destroyed or if it will just move to someone else, nor do we know as of yet HOW to exorcize Hal. But it's a start. Well, if Hal is right (and I am willing to bet he is if he isn't lying) then we probably can't do anything about it as a group. It is up to an individual or few in our group. I am going to say (because of that) that we should probably drop the subject, so as not to expose said individual.
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Day One
May 28, 2008 11:59:23 GMT -5
Post by bufftabby on May 28, 2008 11:59:23 GMT -5
Sorry for not checking in earlier, guys. Atarus was kind enough to send me a PM on the SD this morning to let me know the game had started. I'll be caught up by this evening, I hope, with some thoughts to share.
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Day One
May 28, 2008 12:01:50 GMT -5
Post by NAF1138 on May 28, 2008 12:01:50 GMT -5
Also, dude only 22 of 25 people have checked in so far? Am I reading that wrong? Whats up?
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Day One
May 28, 2008 12:07:32 GMT -5
Post by The Real FCOD on May 28, 2008 12:07:32 GMT -5
Hal, you say that you'd like to remove your shoes. Are we to understand that you're not able to remove your shoes on your own? That you need some help in doing so? I'm pretty sure (not 100% positive, but reasonably sure) that someone here has a shoehorn. Can it really be this easy? I don't know. If atarus has a game mechanic in place that would prevent a possessed player from spilling the beans, wouldn't he have some way of dealing with this? I realize that Hal is drawing on past games as a sneaky way to communicate, but anyone could easily do the same thing, i.e. saying something like, "I have a really REALLY bad itch that I can't scratch. Won't someone with back-scratcher help me out?" It just seems too easy. I guess NAF is right. We should drop it and focus on potential targets. Also, by my count, we've yet to hear from Blaster Master, misterblockey, and stardragonman. COME ON PEOPLE!! --FCOD
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Day One
May 28, 2008 12:09:43 GMT -5
Post by Mister Blockey on May 28, 2008 12:09:43 GMT -5
Bahahahahahhahahahhahahahhaha Newbie POST!
First of all, hello everyone, I know I'm new here, and I'd like to start by talking about that a little. I may be new to this board, but I'm by no means new to mafia, having played my share of standard, and completely insane games on another board. This leads me to a dilemma, I know what I'm doing, but I don't know the players. On the other hand only one player here knows me, and Roosh hasn't ever played mafia with me, so still an unknown quantity. I'm sure Atarus likes that, as nothing livens up mafia as much as more things you don't know, and nothing stagnates it like everyone being able to read everyone, and having maps of how people play as scum or town.
"What in the world is all of this leading up to?", you might ask.
Well this is in regards to Hal, and his current behavior. To put it bluntly, I don't trust it. Of course this is a mafia game and I don't trust anything, but I particularly don't trust this, having not only seen my share of games, but having read up on the spoilers in some of your completed games.
Two things I've heard about these boards: You read into posts, and talk a lot, a whole lot. This I like. It makes town more fun as you have a chance to win, and special roles more fun as you actually have to be careful, and you can be sneaky (pro or anti town) and successful. In the Firefly game, half to more than half of the players role-claimed in day one. This is confusing, because dear god it's just stupid, completely stupid. There is no situation where that's pro-town if the scum players are even worth half their salt, and if that many players role-claimed, you know there was town involved.
So I'm left with a mixed impression, basically good players who occasionally lose their minds, or just stop thinking.
Now I apply this to our friend Hal
Speculation Disclaimer: I will always give all of the options apparent to me because doing otherwise gains nothing but suspicion, no matter what side I'm on, at least one option always benefits the town not to be mentioned, and at least one option always benefits scum not to be mentioned, and even if that were not the case I find that as a rule someone else will mention any omitted scenario's anyway, so there's no benefit long term to omitting a speculative option, and often great harm usually by the action derailing the thread.
Option 1: He is being totally and completely transparent. He's possessed, he wants to be town, he has no other motivations. If this is the case: congratulations, he's put his metagame over the game for everyone else. He just wants to win so he's trying to figure out how to bend the rules to his advantage, and how to do something he knows he's not meant to do. As town I may well like that, but as a person who enjoys a good game, I dislike him intensely.
Option 2: He's a type 1 demon who has a fake being successfully exorcised skill, ie super god-father. If this is the case: He's playing a dangerous game, and if it plays out it might even have worked, if no one here had ever played mafia before. Even if he survives the night he's going to be under intense scrutiny, which would be pretty bad for him if he's scum. This is a boneheaded move, so unless other players think he's that boneheaded, I find this option unlikely.
Option 3: He's a town oriented power role with night kill protection, who wants to draw attention to himself in order to distract the scum into trying to kill him, hoping they don't know who all of the possessed are. If this is the case: I have just openly stated the WIFOM discussion that would be going on in scum camp during the night, if he's not lynched at the end of the day. This is the first option where it's not in the town and/or forums best interest to lynch him.
Option 4: He's a scum oriented power role with nk/investigation protection and/or retaliation powers. If this is the case: Played right he could reasonably be sacrificing himself to take out 1-3 town oriented power roles.
Option 5: He's a scum oriented suicide role. If this is the case: He probably will take several of those who vote for him out if lynched. Probably the number would be dependent on how many people vote for him in order for him to want to do this so early.
Option 6: He's a jester. His goal is to die via lynch rather than night kill, so he's trying to make himself lynch worthy. If this is the case: This is a mixed bag. Jesters run the range from plain old lynch=win to myriad weird and unusual things happen to one side, the other, or both, upon the jesters death. Especially in high power games, it's usually best to NK the jester rather than risk their results.
Option 7: He's scum with some sort of power that will kill an exorcist if one attempts an exorcism, or has a partner that can find/kill the exorcist if one attempts to exorcise him. If this is the case: He's banking on town having only one exorcist, which if it's the case and we go along with him, he'd be sacrificing himself to cripple the town.
Option 8: He has some sort of pro town role that activates upon an exorcism being performed upon him that either helps him or the exorcist. If this is the case: This is both the most efficient and the most risky way to go about trying to fulfill this role. There are certainly better ways it could be done. This is the only option where I'd recommend exorcism, however I feel that it's also the least likely.
So what do we do, well all options could end in disaster, depending on his role, but I'm leaning towards lynching him for the information, but only after more discussion. If a better lynch target comes up I'd say any vigs should probably night kill him, however I'm not committing to anything yet, as discussion is the most important part of day one.
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Day One
May 28, 2008 12:13:50 GMT -5
Post by Rysto on May 28, 2008 12:13:50 GMT -5
Hal, you say that you'd like to remove your shoes. Are we to understand that you're not able to remove your shoes on your own? That you need some help in doing so? I'm pretty sure (not 100% positive, but reasonably sure) that someone here has a shoehorn. I'm calling bullshit on this. We're expect to believe that Atarus saw the Dracula discussion in the Cecilvania, decided to nip that problem in the bud in this game, but didn't consider the Shoes loophole? Atarus played in the Three Kingdoms game, didn't he? If there are any exorcists out there, I'd suggest they think long and hard before doing anything with Hal. This smells like a set up to me.
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Day One
May 28, 2008 12:17:13 GMT -5
Post by The Real FCOD on May 28, 2008 12:17:13 GMT -5
I'd like to point out another possibility, misterblockey: Hal is possessed by a demon, and if we lynch him the demon moves to a different town player. We may or may not be aware of this move. Hal might even show up as vanilla town. I think it'd be worth the risk of another possession to lynch him. If he turns up town, we could reasonably assume that he was possessed and that the demon has now moved. We may have lost a townie, but we'll have gained valuable information.
--FCOD
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Day One
May 28, 2008 12:28:32 GMT -5
Post by Hawkmod on May 28, 2008 12:28:32 GMT -5
Sorry for not checking in earlier, guys. Atarus was kind enough to send me a PM on the SD this morning to let me know the game had started. I'll be caught up by this evening, I hope, with some thoughts to share. Welcome Buff. I'll try not to make accusations solely on niceness this time Hal, would lynching you make the problem go away? I understand you prefer not to be lynched, but is it a viable alternative?
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Day One
May 28, 2008 12:29:21 GMT -5
Post by Mister Blockey on May 28, 2008 12:29:21 GMT -5
I'd like to point out another possibility, misterblockey: Hal is possessed by a demon, and if we lynch him the demon moves to a different town player. We may or may not be aware of this move. Hal might even show up as vanilla town. I think it'd be worth the risk of another possession to lynch him. If he turns up town, we could reasonably assume that he was possessed and that the demon has now moved. We may have lost a townie, but we'll have gained valuable information. --FCOD True, hadn't thought of that. Two things there though: would Hal, if bored enough and given a vanilla role, do this just to do it, in which case lynching him and turning up town wouldn't necessarily mean much. Also, I think the biggest reason I hadn't thought of that (other than it took time to compose that whole list) is that sounds like a very very overpowered scum condition, so while possible I'd put that on the low end of the likelihood spectrum.
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Day One
May 28, 2008 12:39:11 GMT -5
Post by The Real FCOD on May 28, 2008 12:39:11 GMT -5
Hal, would lynching you make the problem go away? I understand you prefer not to be lynched, but is it a viable alternative? If Hal is lying, do you really think he'd answer that question with a yes? Two things there though: would Hal, if bored enough and given a vanilla role, do this just to do it, in which case lynching him and turning up town wouldn't necessarily mean much. Having playing with Hal in several games, I'd be shocked to see him do something in such poor sport. --FCOD
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Day One
May 28, 2008 12:42:57 GMT -5
Post by Mister Blockey on May 28, 2008 12:42:57 GMT -5
Ah but the more questions Hal answers the more fodder we have for figuring him out. Not only that but the more people that ask questions, the better.
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Day One
May 28, 2008 12:44:36 GMT -5
Post by The Real FCOD on May 28, 2008 12:44:36 GMT -5
Ah but the more questions Hal answers the more fodder we have for figuring him out. Not only that but the more people that ask questions, the better. I agree. --FCOD
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Day One
May 28, 2008 12:49:54 GMT -5
Post by KidVermicious on May 28, 2008 12:49:54 GMT -5
They hurt my feet, and I'd like to take them off. For those of you following along and not understanding this whole back and forth, in the Three Kingdoms game, there were 3 scum factions. There was also a townie aligned doctor that could only protect against one of the three factions. Roosh was the Shu aligned doctor. However, the doctors were prohibited from role claiming. If they ever did they lost their powers immediately. Roosh was forced into claiming. He did so in a very imaginative way. You have to read it to fully grasp how well done it was. Unfortunately, he said that he hated shoes, rather than footwear, so he got stripped anyways. My impression, and the purpose of my question, is that Hal is claiming to have been possessed by a type 2 demon, the kind that can be driven out by holy water. However he apparently is prohibited from just coming out and saying so directly. Or maybe I'm misreading the whole situation. Oh. I thought you were implying he was a Cobbler.
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Day One
May 28, 2008 12:52:46 GMT -5
Post by Hawkmod on May 28, 2008 12:52:46 GMT -5
If Hal is lying, do you really think he'd answer that question with a yes? My current thought is that our safest (though not necessarily best) course of action is to lynch Hal. I'm asking him to confirm this, or convince me that this would be a bad idea.
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Day One
May 28, 2008 12:58:29 GMT -5
Post by Hal Briston on May 28, 2008 12:58:29 GMT -5
Arright, we're getting off on a unnecessary tangent here. Sorry if it makes me intensely dislikable, but I'm just a townie survivor trying to, as it were, kick off my shoes.
Those who need to know this, now know this. If it paints me as a town or scum target, well, that sucks, but so be it...
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Day One
May 28, 2008 13:01:01 GMT -5
Post by Hal Briston on May 28, 2008 13:01:01 GMT -5
Hal, would lynching you make the problem go away? I understand you prefer not to be lynched, but is it a viable alternative? I can't say for certain, but I'd guess that would serve the same ends as a more desireable solution.
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Day One
May 28, 2008 13:01:39 GMT -5
Post by NAF1138 on May 28, 2008 13:01:39 GMT -5
I'd like to point out another possibility, misterblockey: Hal is possessed by a demon, and if we lynch him the demon moves to a different town player. We may or may not be aware of this move. Hal might even show up as vanilla town. I think it'd be worth the risk of another possession to lynch him. If he turns up town, we could reasonably assume that he was possessed and that the demon has now moved. We may have lost a townie, but we'll have gained valuable information. --FCOD True, hadn't thought of that. Two things there though: would Hal, if bored enough and given a vanilla role, do this just to do it, in which case lynching him and turning up town wouldn't necessarily mean much. I would call it highly unlikely. Hal has been with us a long time at this point. I don't see him suddenly turning into a douch overnight. ]Also, I think the biggest reason I hadn't thought of that (other than it took time to compose that whole list) is that sounds like a very very overpowered scum condition, so while possible I'd put that on the low end of the likelihood spectrum. I don't know, it might be overpowered but there could be a big balance that we just aren't aware of. On the whole I am way too uncertain of what is happening with Hal to think he is worth a lynch. And I can not see any senario where lynching him immediatly benefits us more than waiting until we know more.
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Day One
May 28, 2008 13:05:58 GMT -5
Post by ryjae on May 28, 2008 13:05:58 GMT -5
If Hal is lying, do you really think he'd answer that question with a yes? My current thought is that our safest (though not necessarily best) course of action is to lynch Hal. I'm asking him to confirm this, or convince me that this would be a bad idea. I disagree, there are some weird things here and he may be the answer to our exorcism questions. I only have one request for our exorcist role don't do it tonight, wait until tomorrow. That's blunt but all this pussy footing around isn't getting us anywhere. He is someone that needs someones help, so he says lets let our demon hunter check him out tonight and we may know more about this tomorrow. Does that make sense? If not disregard, but I see it as a potential townie save.
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Day One
May 28, 2008 13:06:08 GMT -5
Post by NAF1138 on May 28, 2008 13:06:08 GMT -5
Also, I like you Misterblockey, but I am not sure that hyperfocusing on a single aspect of game setup is going to help us all that much.
We need some big picture work. We know a little bit about Hal, we have some time to decide what to do with that info toDay. (Note to new players, catpital Day refers to the game cycle lowercase day reffers to real time).
I do know that Hal has been a good distraction for the town. I don't know if we will have learned anyting usefull by the end of the Day even if we lynch Hal, if this is all we talk about.
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Day One
May 28, 2008 13:06:23 GMT -5
Post by Hal Briston on May 28, 2008 13:06:23 GMT -5
Hal has been with us a long time at this point. I don't see him suddenly turning into a douch overnight. Some might argue that wouldn't be the case.
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Day One
May 28, 2008 13:14:28 GMT -5
Post by Hal Briston on May 28, 2008 13:14:28 GMT -5
I disagree, there are some weird things here and he may be the answer to our exorcism questions. I only have one request for our exorcist role don't do it tonight, wait until tomorrow. That'd be ok with me...I have time. Not an unlimited amount, but time.
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Day One
May 28, 2008 13:25:04 GMT -5
Post by hockeyguy8435 on May 28, 2008 13:25:04 GMT -5
Yeah, well seeing as I have no clue what you mean when you say that, all this talk has been confusing me. And seeing as how I don't know what you're talking about, I guess that means I'm not in a position to know what you mean, and thus I won't question you on it.
I do have a question though Hal{/b], why do you feel the need to say that 'some might argue the case'? It just makes me think that you've set up some sort of group of people who you feel comfortable sharing information with, via clues (shoes?), and that makes me uncomfortable at the moment. Not suspicious, just uncomfortable.
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Day One
May 28, 2008 13:26:26 GMT -5
Post by hockeyguy8435 on May 28, 2008 13:26:26 GMT -5
That'd be ok with me...I have time. Not an unlimited amount, but time. And this seems like you're basically saying you're possessed.
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Day One
May 28, 2008 13:32:27 GMT -5
Post by Hawkmod on May 28, 2008 13:32:27 GMT -5
I can't say for certain, but I'd guess that would serve the same ends as a more desireable solution. Next question: Is there an advantage to fixing your problem sooner rather than later?
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