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Day One
May 28, 2008 13:33:05 GMT -5
Post by The Real FCOD on May 28, 2008 13:33:05 GMT -5
I am having a hard time believing that Hal wouldn't be allowed to say "I am possessed" but can say all of these hints that any idiot would pick up on.
--FCOD
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Day One
May 28, 2008 13:34:36 GMT -5
Post by Hal Briston on May 28, 2008 13:34:36 GMT -5
I do have a question though Hal{/b], why do you feel the need to say that 'some might argue the case'?Heh...sorry, that was a joke. As in "some might argue that I didn't suddenly turn into a douche overnight". No in-game relevance there.
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Day One
May 28, 2008 13:44:27 GMT -5
Post by KidVermicious on May 28, 2008 13:44:27 GMT -5
Ok, we've mostly looked at all the possibilities/permutations, and I provisionally agree with mrblockeys list and FCODs addition. I can't think of anything else, anyway.
I think we can gain some insight to the probabilities of the above by looking at motivation for what he's doing, and this is where I get really nervous.
Lets look at what he's accomplished: 1) He's derailed all speculation on what parts of the color are relevant, and what they mean. 2) He's convinced some of us that type2 baddies are a mechanic rather than a role (somebody else said this first, I'm not scrolling up right now), and he can't talk about it.
I wanna digress a little and talk about that real quick - near as I can tell, he would have us believe that Astarus has told him, "no telling anybody you're possessed". Which is all well and good, except look how easy he's gotten around that. I don't know anybody here yet except from reading through old games. Some of you have indicated that you don't believe Atarus is the dimmest bulb in the box, so why would he drop a rule if the spirit of that rule can be violated so easily? Am I off with this? It isn't making sense to me.
Anyway, back to motivation. Thinking as I type, here... if current speculation is correct, and Hal and Darth (and who else?) are possessed townies, then the obvious motivation is to get themselves unpossessed and win with town. Atarus has placed some interesting restrictions on what they can and can't say, so they've got a limited playbook with which to accomplish this. I can't think of anything off the top of my head that either has said that is inconsistent with this theory - when I'm done with this post I'm going to reread again with that in mind.
One thing I want to put out there - assuming they're town, I'm seeing lots of personal motivation. I'm not yet convinced that they're displaying town motivation... was this really the best thing to do at this time? If they're town, they know the situation better than the rest of us, I guess, but I'll feel a lot better when there's independant confirmation of all this. This may go without saying, but power roles, please dissect your PMs.
What if Hal and Darth are scum? This is where mrblockeys list comes into play - there's all damn sorts of possibilities there that oughta scare the bejeezus out of town, and the motivations are obvious, so I'm not going to list them out. I am going to be looking at this possibility as well as I reread.
I intended to make this post a condemnation of their behavior, but I've been thinking as I type, and it just hasn't gotten there. This is a nice tall cool glass of WIFOM, and I'm not ready to drink it yet, but I don't find myself quite as ready to throw it in their face, either.
I'm certainly feeling alot better about this if we're talking about type2 as a mechanic rather than a role... the thought of Hal as a power role outing himself this early made no sense, and smelled like a false claim to sow havoc. I'm a little better with the current theory, tho of course that makes me nervous by itself.
I do think it's in towns best interest to have an accord before anybody does anything hasty. I still smell a trap.
One more thought before I hit submit - I have a very strong opinion regarding whether or not we should lynch either of them tonight, but I really would like to see what Hal and Darth have to say about first. I have to think they've considered all the possibilities there, and when and how they respond regarding this should tell us much.
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Day One
May 28, 2008 13:48:46 GMT -5
Post by The Real FCOD on May 28, 2008 13:48:46 GMT -5
I mostly agree with you, KidVermicious. I wanna digress a little and talk about that real quick - near as I can tell, he would have us believe that Astarus has told him, "no telling anybody you're possessed". Which is all well and good, except look how easy he's gotten around that. I don't know anybody here yet except from reading through old games. Some of you have indicated that you don't believe Atarus is the dimmest bulb in the box, so why would he drop a rule if the spirit of that rule can be violated so easily? Am I off with this? It isn't making sense to me. That's what I've been saying! Also, it's atarus, not astarus . --FCOD
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Day One
May 28, 2008 13:53:04 GMT -5
Post by KidVermicious on May 28, 2008 13:53:04 GMT -5
I see Hal has answered. My turn, then.
If we believe Hal and Darth, and we think that the possession will move from one of them to somebody else if they die while possessed, then it is definately NOT in towns interest to lynch either of them tonight. These type2 possessions almost have to be a part of scum win conditions, right? If thats the case, then scum will certainly shoot for a nightkill on anybody they suspect is going to be exorcised, rather than lose the type2. We don't need to do their work for them.
Oh tricksiest mod, I don't see anything in the rules about how conflicting night actions are resolved - in order of pm to you, reverse order, random, what?
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Day One
May 28, 2008 13:55:00 GMT -5
Post by Rysto on May 28, 2008 13:55:00 GMT -5
I don't think that Hal is trying to exclude the new players. He's either trying to get out information that he's not allowed to say outright, or he's trying to give the impression that he's doing so. He's not the one to bring up "shoes", but now that's the code we've agreed on, that's what he's using. The only thing that you need to know about "shoes" is that it has come to signify restrictions on posting information.
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Day One
May 28, 2008 13:56:49 GMT -5
Post by KidVermicious on May 28, 2008 13:56:49 GMT -5
That's what I've been saying! Also, it's atarus, not astarus . --FCOD Yes, you snuck in while I was composing my magnum opus up there. Also, woops. Sorry, Atarus
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Day One
May 28, 2008 13:57:12 GMT -5
Post by The Real FCOD on May 28, 2008 13:57:12 GMT -5
<oog>For my curiosity and because I'm too lazy to go read the other game: Is it "shoe" because he couldn't say "shu"?</oog>
--FCOD
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Day One
May 28, 2008 14:00:40 GMT -5
Post by Rysto on May 28, 2008 14:00:40 GMT -5
Yeah, that's why. He wasn't allowed to say that he was the doctor who protected against Shus, so he went on a long rant about how he "hated shoes".
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Day One
May 28, 2008 14:26:56 GMT -5
Post by tdpatriots12 on May 28, 2008 14:26:56 GMT -5
As long as we're talking about distracting and lists and all this stuff, I think it's important to point out that our ignorance of the actual game setup means we have no possible idea at this point what constitutes a distraction and what doesn't, in my opinion. Within reason, obviously, and I think discussing Hal qualifies as reasonable.
Take mrblockey's list, we could spend a lot of time discussing every single possibility and it might be just as much a waste of time, if not moreso, especially if it is a scum ploy to throw everything out of whack.
FYI, I am not actually against discussing everything on said list, just using it to illustrate a point. We can't be entirely sure of what was and wasn't a waste of time until the endgame, right? Or at the very least we start getting some confirmed information...
Plus, why are we acting like something has actually stopped us from discussing the relevance of the game color? If you have something to say about it, say it, what's stopping anyone?
With regards to Hal his specific motivation is potentially irrelevant, all we need to decide is whether or not we believe him. In the end we're either going to lynch him or see if he manages to find some help with his footwear.
However!
I am puzzled that no one else has made similar moves, though. If there are multiple Scum Type 2s and Hal is one and being truthful, then why are the others silent? Is he the only Scum Type 2?
Q1: What does it mean is he's the only S2? Q2: What does it mean if he isn't, but for some reason the others aren't following suit?
Also, just so I'm not pissing on all of your cornflakes in one post, I would like to make clear that the reason I didn't buy Hal's message in my "it's obvious what he's doing post" turned out to be what a lot of you are having issue with; how could he imply it so strongly and get away with a post restriction about his condition? It certainly raises an eyebrow, and it might explain question #2, but given the ease at which Hal managed to get his message across, I am leaning towards the following conclusions:
* If Hal is telling the truth, than he is the only S2 or the only S2 to have checked in. * If Hal is lying, then we can't really know if S2's even exist and we're back to square one.
Should we press other S2s to make similar statements? I'm not sure if we know enough about the setup to predict if doing so is even a pro-town action in the long run, but it is the thought that entered my mind. Not actively endorsing this step yet, though, just putting it out there.
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Day One
May 28, 2008 14:32:15 GMT -5
Post by KidVermicious on May 28, 2008 14:32:15 GMT -5
Okay, this is gonna be real quick, because I'm going out to dinner in like 2 minutes. I haven't seen this particular point covered (if it was, forgive me, I was in a rush to finish reading everything before I left): Underlining mine. This could be a hint that either: (1) The exorcist has a chance of not correctly exorcising or (2) There may be something like the Apprentice from the Cult game, in which if the exorcist dies, there's a successor that may take over the exorcisms, but not always succeeding (in that game, the Apprentice's chances of success depended on whether he was located and tutored) or (3) There are multiple exorcists to begin with, and one, some or all of them have a less than 100% chance of exorcising successfully or (4) Opening color means nothing and there's no exorcists at all, in which case we're screwed (I hope not) I missed this first time, sorry. Kat, your ideas intrigue me, and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter. I find some of the above thoughts very interesting, in terms of what it means now that we think we know what we think we know. You know? ;D
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Day One
May 28, 2008 14:38:37 GMT -5
Post by NAF1138 on May 28, 2008 14:38:37 GMT -5
OK, this got longer than I expected it would, so this is going to be a 2 parter. This part will be theory, the next bit will be practical application. I may not be able to get to part 2 for a couple of hours. I caught this post on a re-read. I missed responding to it in a timely fashion, but I think the thoughts in it are relevant still. It takes us back to the idea of making sure we keep the line between what we know and what we guess clear, and helps make good guesses. I also think it might help me put my finger on my problem with misterblocky's desire to kill Hal for information. Rather than chop up the post, here it is in it's entirety. It is actually all relevant. Heh, most of you know my stance on "flippedness" from the Vampire discussions in the other game. But just in case- I'm very pro-Telling the town if you're flipped and if there's a chance you can win with the Town. But I think Atarus probably saw that, and devised a way around it. Like mhaye's suggestion of a succession for the whole process, one that works in the town's favor. I like that idea, it's a very cool mechanism, and it certainly would allow for better balancing- to have someone townie "learn" the mechanisms for removing the D2's once the original dude dies. Reminds me of the movie " Tales from the Crypt: Demon Knight", a film that both Us REALLY REALLY enjoy. It's cheesy, but I'm a fan of that movie, and so is atarus, so I could totally see a mechanism similar in flavor to those two roles- the demon hunter vs. the Badass Billy Zane. Makes me think of the idea of the D2 could possible be like its own group- a role that "posses bodies" and there's an independent role out there that is looking for said special demon with the means to take it down. I like it. And if I were making a Demonic Mafia game, I'd have to include a Billy Zane throwback SOME where... but would Atarus? That's the Key.... On Lists:I believe it was NAF who said stuff on keeping "what we know lists". I'm not a fan of "trust lists" and things like that just from what happened in M2, and it makes me paranoid and kinda squicked out to hear about lists. However, a "What We Know" List, if it's based solely on facts, could be a useful thing. I like hard Data- vote counts, voting patterns, that's all stuff that you can't WIFOM on was it done or wasn't it done. A vote is a vote, and it's there and done. Sure, you gotta examine motivations and stuff like that, but that's why you have to look at the Data for that sorta thing. So I'm gonna be chill about these lists things of yours. I'd like to seem 'em in action, and sure they may be helpful to us in terms of reminding us what we know and don't know, but I don't see what we can really do with that sorta stuff. What I'd really like to know more about is that " Motivation" stuff you advocate, NAF. Can you explain it to me a bit more? As I couldn't ask in the last game, since you were the Mod, but I've been trying to follow and apply your Motivation stuff as I think it's useful, but I'd like to know more about it. Care to share your thoughts based on all the games we've had so far? And Hal- You're being Shatner-esque. That's... kinda... odd.... ...I don't know... what to make of it. But it draws attention to you. And THAT makes ME more paranoid. Because that's not what I think of as "normal" scum behavior. So... I'll give you the ol' eyeball of suspicion on Hal , but nothing more serious yet. As its more just Odd than scummy. Ok, so I am going to leave that first part alone (the bit about Vampires and how the are similar to type 2 demons etc.) because I don't know exactly what to think about this game, and I don't want to talk too much about the vamps because I have perfect knowledge of that game and don't want to give anything away. The rest of this is going to get pedantic, and I apologize for that in advance. It's just the easiest way for me to make my thoughts clear. My thoughts on the What We Know Lists and motivational behavior analysis. I am also throwing in my preponderance of evidence theory for free, because even though no one seems to like it much, I think it works well; especially in conjunction with the other two theories. The bit about lists. I am glad that the idea of the "What We Know Lists" are starting to gain some traction as an idea. Nothing like organizing your thoughts into a list to help keep things clear. And it is especially important in closed setups to keep thoughts clear. Scum thrive on chaos and speculation. That being said you HAVE to speculate in this game, or you get nowhere. So how to you handle that? First you keep a list of what you know is true. Then you take a list of what you think might be true and start looking at the evidence to see if there is enough evidence to make it likely to be true. If there is enough evidence EVEN IF SOME OF IT IS VERY SMALL OR SEEMINGLY WEAK. EVEN IF ALL OF IT IS VERY SMALL OR SEEMINGLY WEAK, you can mark it as probably true. When it comes to catching scum, it is my belief that you are more likely to find a half a dozen small bits of evidence (let's not call them slips, that has a bad connotation) rather than 1 large piece of evidence. At the start of the game, all evidence no matter how seemingly small or large, has equal value. It is not until later in the game when there is enough "known" information that you can really judge the value of the evidence at hand. That being said, how to you know if evidence is good or bad? Well in the context of game setup we find out more information with each death. As the game goes on our assumptions get proven or disproved. But if you are scum hunting, you have to look at motivation. Every person playing the game has a role. And each role wants something, and every post that every person makes leaves clues as to what it is that the player wants. Even fluff posts, because posting fluff is a choice. So you look at what a player gains by each post. Sometimes there are multiple possibilities. In such a case YOU DO NOT CHOSE which possibility fits best, you choose them all. If a post has motive for (take the Batman game setup) being a Baddie, a PFK and a DoGooder, you put a check next to each of those columns. You then apply the preponderance of evidence theory and you SHOULD find scum every time. This theory worked most explicitly for Cookies in Seekham, where all surface evidence pointed to the town player as the last remaining scum, but when she looked at the motivation behind the posts, Kyrie (the real last scum) was the clear winner. Most recently a failure to implement this theory lead to the death of a town player in Cecilvania. They lynched OAOW for behavior that had NO benefit to scum. But instead of asking, "How does this help scum?" they asked "Does this help town?" And asking if something is protown or antitown is fruitless and, more importantly, dangerous. EVERY PLAYER WILL DO SOMETHING THAT IS ANTI TOWN AT SOME POINT. No one will manage perfect play. If perfect play were possible the game wouldn't be fun. By lynching players for not exhibiting perfect play, we punish the player for being human and we punish ourselves, but we don't get any closer than random chance to finding scum. But if we take that and flip it on its head, and start looking for lapses in perfect play from the scum, we will be able to find them, we just need to know how to not shoot ourselves in the collective foot in the process. So by asking, how does this benefit scum rather than is this anti town, you get closer to the scum, and minimize your chance of killing town showing less than perfect play and maximize your chance of catching scum showing less than perfect play. I really hope the above makes some kind of sense. In my next post, I will attempt to apply the above to Hal and his detractors. (possibly without success, but you never know)
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Day One
May 28, 2008 14:51:09 GMT -5
Post by KidVermicious on May 28, 2008 14:51:09 GMT -5
With regards to Hal his specific motivation is potentially irrelevant, all we need to decide is whether or not we believe him. In the end we're either going to lynch him or see if he manages to find some help with his footwear. Working my way back up the thread - again, I'm strongly against lynching any possessed/suspected possessed player until we know more about the possession mechanic. Lynching Hal could be a mislynch, if the possession moves on to another player. We don't need to do the scums work for them! Darth has put himself out. I haven't caught anybody else. Could mean thats all there is, or somebody else is waiting to see which way the wind blows, or that type2s can possess power roles and somebody is laying low for that reason. Again, Hal isn't the only one to have come forward. Darth was actually dropping crumbs before Hal started.
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Day One
May 28, 2008 14:54:39 GMT -5
Post by NAF1138 on May 28, 2008 14:54:39 GMT -5
Crimeny, I didn't realize how long my last post ended up being.
To nutshell for all of you who don't like to read:
When looking at motivation we should be looking at how the actions effect scum and scum win conditions, not town.
We should look at all evidence that appears to be pro scum with the same weight. Pro scum is pro scum.
More evidence of pro scum behavior means more likely to be scum.
Keeping what we know for a fact clear and distinct from what we are assuming will help us determine many things including what is actually pro scum behavior. It will also help us keep from getting distracted into fruitless digressions.
Ok, back to my work. (And my job too I suppose)
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Day One
May 28, 2008 14:57:13 GMT -5
Post by Pollux Oil on May 28, 2008 14:57:13 GMT -5
Oh tricksiest mod, I don't see anything in the rules about how conflicting night actions are resolved - in order of pm to you, reverse order, random, what? There's a set order for any and all Night actions. You don't get to know it. Neener neener.
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RoOsh
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Day One
May 28, 2008 14:58:02 GMT -5
Post by RoOsh on May 28, 2008 14:58:02 GMT -5
I am puzzled that no one else has made similar moves, though. If there are multiple Scum Type 2s and Hal is one and being truthful, then why are the others silent? Is he the only Scum Type 2? I think Darth Sensitive has put himself in the Shoe-horn camp with Hal. So I don't think Hal is alone there, for your solo-Hal theories- but that was going to be My question: Is there anyone else out there who is need of a good shoe-horning? Or should we just assume Hal and DS are our two itchy-feeted people here? It would be nice to have a numbers sort of thing, and best if it's a pro-town element to see what we're working with here. Or AM I wrong in assuming you've got shoe problems too, Darth? (And I REALLY love that my Footwear Gambit has lived on to have practical applications in future games ;D Brimming with pride here)
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RoOsh
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Day One
May 28, 2008 15:03:38 GMT -5
Post by RoOsh on May 28, 2008 15:03:38 GMT -5
MisterBlocky- thanks for that steaming heap of WIFOM in a Can.
I think it's a good thing to put out your thoughts, but damn. That list doesn't help me as so much as make me feel REALLY REALLY paranoid and want to curl up.
Also- you give all that, but then at the end say you're inclined to want to LYNCH Hal instead of any of the other options- Care to elaborate on that?
Why the lynch instead of waiting? And others have pointed out that you'd forgotten to point out the "what if he lives on if lynched", do you STILL believe in lynching him then with that fact considered (and the fact that he may not be alone in this- ie: Darth sensitive has spoken up somewhat too- which could rule out the Jester options and such) ?
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Day One
May 28, 2008 15:13:09 GMT -5
Post by NAF1138 on May 28, 2008 15:13:09 GMT -5
I think I just realized why this Day feels off to me.
MHAYE!
Where is your "Grudges are bad post?" Most of us know it by now, but come on man, it's tradition!
Ok, back to work.
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Day One
May 28, 2008 15:20:05 GMT -5
Post by Rysto on May 28, 2008 15:20:05 GMT -5
He didn't do it in YSI, either.
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Day One
May 28, 2008 15:58:06 GMT -5
Post by KidVermicious on May 28, 2008 15:58:06 GMT -5
There's a discrepancy here. Hal and Darth have both mentioned killing type2 demons with holy water. The color is pretty clear that holy water is just an investigation, and exorcism is needed to actually kill the demon.
The fact that it's the two of them saying this, and nobody else that I can see, makes me think it's not mere chance.
I don't know if it means anything, though, beyond an easily misread PM or color.
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Day One
May 28, 2008 18:04:27 GMT -5
Post by NAF1138 on May 28, 2008 18:04:27 GMT -5
Sorry guys, no way part two of my post (practicle application) is going to get posted today. Cecilvania is...taking up some of my time,looks like we might need many subs by this time tomorrow. And work exploded. Oh yeah, and my car got towed. It's been a hell of a day. Back tomorrow.
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Merestil Haye
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Day One
May 28, 2008 18:16:56 GMT -5
Post by Merestil Haye on May 28, 2008 18:16:56 GMT -5
Sounds like an unfun day, NAF. I was looking forward to the application post,, as well. Tomorrow, then. In general, I an see what you're trying to get at with the theory.
I can't believe I didn't remind people not to carry grudges. I blame the new players. Obviously, since they've never played here before it's not possible for them to carry grudges in. But fir the sake of the vets...
Grudges are bad, OK? If you set out to get someone killed just because they killed you in the last game, or ran rings around you, or you hate their playstyle, it doesn't mean that you should get them killed in this game. They might be on the same side as you this time. You might lose because you carried the grudge over.
/Public Service Announcement mode.
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Day One
May 28, 2008 18:40:02 GMT -5
Post by Rebel on May 28, 2008 18:40:02 GMT -5
Oh boy this is what I get for not being able to get on yesterday. I've skimmed through what everyone has posted so far but I know I'm going to have to go back and reread through everything to get a better understanding. Quick question though what would be so bad about lynching Hal or Darth if they really are under control by the type 2 scum? If they are part of the scum that needs to be converted to join the humans by holy water or whatever at the moment I see lynching one of them as a chance to gain some much needed information on this type 2 scum. If the speculation currently is that the scum moves into a new body after they are lynched can't the new person who is now under control come out and say something about shoes as well? That way the town would learn that the body jumping is indeed true and we know not to lynch them but to have whoever preform the needed night activities to make them human? Unless it's explained already can someone explain what could be the cons of lynching one of them? (Besides the obvious if they are town, that's one less town member).
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Day One
May 28, 2008 18:45:05 GMT -5
Post by Czech on May 28, 2008 18:45:05 GMT -5
Unless it's explained already can someone explain what could be the cons of lynching one of them? (Besides the obvious if they are town, that's one less town member). I think the worry is that if we lynch a Type2, the demon that possessed them might get transferred to another townie. In which case, were down two instead of one.
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Day One
May 28, 2008 18:50:24 GMT -5
Post by Czech on May 28, 2008 18:50:24 GMT -5
I am having a hard time believing that Hal wouldn't be allowed to say "I am possessed" but can say all of these hints that any idiot would pick up on. This is definitely something that I've been pondering, too. Wouldn't a mechanism disallowing the possessed players from alerting true townies of their possession apply to using code phrases, too? Very suspicious. Is this where FOS's come into play?
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Day One
May 28, 2008 18:52:30 GMT -5
Post by KidVermicious on May 28, 2008 18:52:30 GMT -5
Unless it's explained already can someone explain what could be the cons of lynching one of them? (Besides the obvious if they are town, that's one less town member). Well, thats my biggest concern right there. I see it like this. Worst case , we lynch Hal or Darth, we're down one (probable) townie. Scum nightkills, and we're down two (probable) townies, and haven't gained anything in terms reducing the number of scum on the board, cuz the type2 went and infested somebody else. I would prefer we don't lynch either of the (possibly) possessed townies, and target someone more likely to be scum. If we miss, we haven't lost anything over worst case, but if we hit scum, we're in a much better position, we may gain information in the lynching of scum that could offset information gained by lynching possessed town, and we've got the investigative roles that will be kicking in Tonight as well. Also, Hal and Darth haven't said much Today except in terms of the mechanics of their roles. Lynching somebody else, and evaluating their posts in light of their revealed side/role gives us more information in that regard. I don't think we're at the point where death of Hal or Darth will give us enough information to offset the intentional loss of a townie.
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Day One
May 28, 2008 18:53:28 GMT -5
Post by KidVermicious on May 28, 2008 18:53:28 GMT -5
I am having a hard time believing that Hal wouldn't be allowed to say "I am possessed" but can say all of these hints that any idiot would pick up on. This is definitely something that I've been pondering, too. Wouldn't a mechanism disallowing the possessed players from alerting true townies of their possession apply to using code phrases, too? Very suspicious. Is this where FOS's come into play? Yes.
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Day One
May 28, 2008 20:46:57 GMT -5
Post by Pollux Oil on May 28, 2008 20:46:57 GMT -5
Well, you guys sure are making it easy on me for the vote counts. Instead, I'll give you a post count! Remember the 5 post rule!
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Day One
May 28, 2008 21:37:34 GMT -5
Post by KidVermicious on May 28, 2008 21:37:34 GMT -5
I win!
I was gonna wait until somebody else voted, but I'm ready to start voting lurkers now, and I think I'm going to start by
voting Tragic.
Mostly for this little exchange:
Roosh said,
to which Tragic replied,
And I think our dear mods post count is wrong, because thats the only thing I can find from Tragic yet.
So there you go. Hardly conclusive, but enough to buy a vote from me until something better comes along.
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Day One
May 28, 2008 21:48:37 GMT -5
Post by Greedy Smurf on May 28, 2008 21:48:37 GMT -5
Roosh is being outposted That is just a joke Roosh! not a challenge. All meant in fun mate ;D For actual game stuff. I'm not sure where I sit with Hal. I personally don't subscribe to the 'he is a possessed camp' - I'm sure Atarus wouldn't have allowed that big a loop hole. (Then again maybe Hal is not getting away with it and we won't find out the consequences of "breaking the rules" until Dusk? I completely agree that it would be an extraordinarly ballsy play for scum to take to draw this much attention to themselves this early. However I have a niggling doubt, that what if Hal is a Type 1 demon and he's hoping to get investigated (holy watered), and come up clean to earn townie cred? A Possibility. By the same token, it is also ballsy for a town power role to out themselves as a power role this early. If this is the case, and Hal isn't trying out some patented super secret new mafia strategy, then I presume he must be a Doctor of some description, in which case he has locked himself into self protecting for the forseeable future, at least until another power role is revealed at which time it becomes a game of chicken with scum.
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