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Post by Mister Blockey on Jun 18, 2008 12:19:58 GMT -5
If you have some brilliant analysis that you are unable to post during the day, for the love of Pollux do NOT post that you missed the deadline to post it. I knew right then that Molefan wasn't surviving the night. The implications of this just hit me: how could you have known that he was going to die unless you knew that he wasn't scum? FoS Hawkeyeop You know what, I had nowhere to go at the beginning of the Day, as not only is there no new info, but TD, the person I felt most likely to be scum, is dead but with no reveal. I've been thinking, but not had much to post, and I've been seeing the argument against Blam, but not feeling it you know... I don't disagree with the argument, I just don't know if I'm willing to put a vote on it. Then I saw the above quote. Wow.... This just strikes me as such a grasping stretch that it worries me about Rysto, and also places Blam under more suspicion in my eyes, as what this looks like is a prime distraction piece. Let me reword hawkeyeop's post first: If one has a brilliant analysis that could out scum, but you don't have time to post it during the Day, don't say so out loud, because you've now seriously motivated scum to kill you before toMorrow comes. fyi linksys to ze postAlright, first of all, just because the caveat "unless he's scum" wasn't put in, doesn't mean it wasn't thought, and it seemed pretty implied since the post was written as a warning to townies. Secondly, even if it was scum who posted that, a pfk sk has as much to fear from a good reveal as scum, much moreso, if scum are making the reveal, so now you have two independent night kills likely to aim at someone making that kind of claim. Thirdly that was just a very weak semantic stretch. In fact, I'm going to go ahead and Vote Rysto, but I have no issue with the Blam vote going through either. (I'd vote Blam, but I can't shake the idea that Rysto might be distracting just to cause chaos.)
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Post by Hawkmod on Jun 18, 2008 12:25:29 GMT -5
Ok, again with the fruitful snip. Maybe I am not being clear. I am not saying I am positive BlaM is town. What I am saying is him pursuing FCoD so hard when FCoD WAS town was so very dangerous for scum (especially since the pursuit started on Day 1) that as the ONLY piece of evidence against BlaM I don't think it is enough to even cause an FOS. How is it dangerous? Do we ever lynch people for being really wrong? Is there any piece of evidence that makes Blaster seem townie?
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Post by Mister Blockey on Jun 18, 2008 12:28:00 GMT -5
le sigh NAF, I always strike people as scummy, no matter what I do. I know my track record hasn't been great so far but as far as posting goes. It's partly my style. You're going to see me posting a lot in the next two days, not because of your prod of me, but because I have today and tomorrow off. I work 8 hour days 5 days a week on irregular scheduling, want to spend time with my fiance, and don't like posting if I don't have anything definitive to say. It should be pretty obvious that you hadn't posted yet while I was making my last post due to time stamps.
Today I have had no idea where to go until recently. I still need info that's not coming until toMorrow unfortunately.
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Post by NAF1138 on Jun 18, 2008 12:32:38 GMT -5
Ok, again with the fruitful snip. Maybe I am not being clear. I am not saying I am positive BlaM is town. What I am saying is him pursuing FCoD so hard when FCoD WAS town was so very dangerous for scum (especially since the pursuit started on Day 1) that as the ONLY piece of evidence against BlaM I don't think it is enough to even cause an FOS. How is it dangerous? Do we ever lynch people for being really wrong? Is there any piece of evidence that makes Blaster seem townie? Second question first. No, there is not any evidence either way really. Like I said in my last post if it were earlier in the game I would have no problem lynching BlaM right now because he is pissing me off. But I think we missed that particular window. First question second. Because it draws attention to yourself. I am not saying it is something scum wouldn't do, I am saying that it is contrary to everything your head is telling you to do as scum. It gains you nothing but attention, and it doesn't really further your agenda. Any town lynch is a good lynch when you are scum, so why hound one person? It just doesn't make sense. Third unrelated point. I think that Blocky's last vote (for Rysto) is an excelent example of voting for a person solely based on thier single most recent action without looking at the rest of their history or taking it into account. I will add that vote to my case against Blocky.
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Post by Mister Blockey on Jun 18, 2008 12:35:36 GMT -5
How is it dangerous? Do we ever lynch people for being really wrong? Is there any piece of evidence that makes Blaster seem townie? We're down 6 townies and have hit a single demon. Lynching a townie because their play style is hurting the town somewhat is starting to feel a bit dangerous. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the argument against Blam he waits until the end of the day and stubbornly pursued a FCOD lynch until he got his way. It's very likely he could've just been wrong, as hounding someone is his play style, however we don't like his play style, whether or not he's scum, so let's lynch him anyway, and not count it a loss if he's town. I don't like that line of reasoning either. Rysto's distraction makes it seem more likely he's scum, but who really knows. That's why I went with a vote on Rysto, as he's the only one I've seen that's done something that actually looked scummy.
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Hockey Monkey!
Borogrove
This is supposed to be a happy occasion. Let's not bicker over who killed who.
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Post by Hockey Monkey! on Jun 18, 2008 12:38:49 GMT -5
NAF - WTF? And you too Buffy. You are seriously OK with lynching a protective role? Why the hell would it benefit the town to lynch me? Fuck me, but I don't know what to make of this game anymore. I think a few of you have some tunnel vision and got it in your heads that I'm scum, and either can't or don't want to see the truth. I've put some good analysis out there that is being summarily ignored. NAF, you keep doing these drive by smudges of me. Shit (put your case on the table) or get off the pot. I'm getting so frustrated at this town right now that I'm going to step away for a bit.
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Post by Mister Blockey on Jun 18, 2008 12:41:00 GMT -5
I could go either way on you hockeymonkey, but I'll say this, I've played a game where scum won by claiming doctor, and a claim of a weak doctor/martyr, is even less likely to be investigated.
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Post by NAF1138 on Jun 18, 2008 12:42:18 GMT -5
NAF - WTF? And you too Buffy. You are seriously OK with lynching a protective role? Why the hell would it benefit the town to lynch me? Fuck me, but I don't know what to make of this game anymore. I think a few of you have some tunnel vision and got it in your heads that I'm scum, and either can't or don't want to see the truth. I've put some good analysis out there that is being summarily ignored. NAF, you keep doing these drive by smudges of me. Shit (put your case on the table) or get off the pot. I'm getting so frustrated at this town right now that I'm going to step away for a bit. Um, did that yesterDay. I don't believe your claim, and I don't like the timing of it. I haven't been smudging you at all, I have been flat out calling you a liar...so...there's that. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
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Post by Rysto on Jun 18, 2008 12:44:46 GMT -5
Alright, first of all, just because the caveat "unless he's scum" wasn't put in, doesn't mean it wasn't thought, and it seemed pretty implied since the post was written as a warning to townies. I'm not sure if you're deliberately misrepresenting what I said or if this is just a genuine misunderstanding. Hawkeyeop claims that when he saw mole make that post, he immediately knew that mole would die that Night. Here's the thing: if Hawk is a Townie, then last Night he had *no* idea whether mole was Townie or not. So how could he know that the Demons were going to kill mole? If mole were a Demon he's hardly going to be targetted by them for a Night kill, is he? It looks to me that Hawkeyeop's post betrayed knowledge of mole's alignment that he should not have(either that, or he made an assumption about mole's alignment that wasn't justified. Hence the FoS, not a vote). Awful, awful reasoning. This is just terrible. First of all, you're linking our alignments based on a single post. That's scummy as hell. Second of all, you're focusing only on a potential pro-scum motivation for that post. You know what? I can see your interpretation. I happen to know that it's wrong, but that's definitely a valid motivation. But you're completely ignoring the potential pro-Town motivation: I saw a post that stuck out to me as being scummy and pointed it out. I didn't even place a vote, but I wanted Hawkeye's post to be noticed. Between this, and the fact that you've been pinging me since yesterDay, I'm going to: Vote misterblockeyA full explanation and case will follow later toDay, after work.
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Post by Nanook on Jun 18, 2008 12:54:50 GMT -5
Screw it.
I believe HM's claim. And the reason I believe her claim is I made the same decision she did. You see, I'm an Angel, which means I'm kinda sorta a Doctor. I would really rather not get into how and why I differ from a regular doctor. However, I too did not protect Ryjae. Why would I have? He made contradictory claims about his role, and at no point did he claim to be a cop. He said he might have killed KidV, and that he had a bunch of one shot offensive and defensive abilities. None of that screams cop to me. So I protected story. Was it a mistake? Maybe. I took a leap of faith, what can I say(kind of fitting for an Angel no?)
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Post by Hawkmod on Jun 18, 2008 12:59:23 GMT -5
We're down 6 townies and have hit a single demon. Lynching a townie because their play style is hurting the town somewhat is starting to feel a bit dangerous. How do you know Tdpats and Mole were townies? Correcting as in regards to me. I'm not voting him because I think he is an unhelpful town member. I'm voting for him because I think he is as likely to be scum as anyone else, and an unhelpful town member. You may see that he hasn't done much scummy. I see that he hasn't done anything "townie", and conclude that there is a good chance that he is scum. [/quote]
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Post by Rysto on Jun 18, 2008 12:59:41 GMT -5
I really don't see how that was necessary given that HM has like one vote on her, but whatever. Now that you've given us more info about your role, would you feel comfortable giving more information about the third parties you mentioned several Days ago? If you don't that's ok, but I'd like the Town to have as much information as possible.
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Post by NAF1138 on Jun 18, 2008 13:06:49 GMT -5
Screw it. I believe HM's claim. And the reason I believe her claim is I made the same decision she did. You see, I'm an Angel, which means I'm kinda sorta a Doctor. I would really rather not get into how and why I differ from a regular doctor. However, I too did not protect Ryjae. Why would I have? He made contradictory claims about his role, and at no point did he claim to be a cop. He said he might have killed KidV, and that he had a bunch of one shot offensive and defensive abilities. None of that screams cop to me. So I protected story. Was it a mistake? Maybe. I took a leap of faith, what can I say(kind of fitting for an Angel no?) Why did you just claim? This game makes me hurt.
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Post by Nanook on Jun 18, 2008 13:09:58 GMT -5
I really don't see how that was necessary given that HM has like one vote on her, but whatever. Now that you've given us more info about your role, would you feel comfortable giving more information about the third parties you mentioned several Days ago? If you don't that's ok, but I'd like the Town to have as much information as possible. Actually, it's something I've been thinking about doing for a while now because of certain specific things regarding my role that I would rather not discuss. I just felt now was a good a time as any, since it felt like we were getting stuck in a rut. The other third parties that I have awareness of is Angels, and that would be because *I* am an Angel. As I stated then, I know nothing of anything other than survivors, demons and Angels.
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Post by Hawkmod on Jun 18, 2008 13:16:18 GMT -5
The other third parties that I have awareness of is Angels, and that would be because *I* am an Angel. As I stated then, I know nothing of anything other than survivors, demons and Angels. Are you saying you know there are other angels?
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Post by Mister Blockey on Jun 18, 2008 13:23:15 GMT -5
So I went over Rysto's last 30 posts to get a better feel, and I came up with well, a whole lot of nothing. A metric crapton of flying under the radar. What do I mean by that? Let's start by looking at his voting. For the last three days every vote has been for someone unlikely to be lynched. And done so with very little reasoning. YesterDay he voted nanook then czech, then me in a me too vote with very little substance in between. The most involved post I could find by him was a statement that he could find no case against hockeymonkey. Not only that on a read through, he's been doing a little fishing for power roles. Nanook basically claimed angel. Now I wouldn't take him at his word either but the posts and vote made by Rysto imply that he wants a full claim or no claim at all, as if one can't keep an eye on someone when they've made a partial claim. Next he tries fishing from me, a dead end but still a fishing attempt, as when I made the (likely false) intuitive jump to Discworld's Kaos, he basically implied that I must know something about a Horseman of the Apocalypse Finally he aims his rod at hockey, the only one to bite (though whether or not the claim is true is up for discussion) Here he says something that looks like he's trying to get him to claim while looking like he's saying it's ok if he doesn't. Almost every other post has little to no content, explains the history of games here without really addressing this game, or is done in reaction or defense of easy targets, such as interrogating roosh for acting crazy, and defending Darth, who claimed possessed townie right about when Hal did while Hal has later been shown to be very honest. I haven't seen him put his neck out at all since Nanook, and he barely put his neck out then. Suddenly he posts more but only when I call him out and vote him. I want votes somewhere and I'm critically short on info and suddenly someone comes along and goes: nothing nothing nothing...PING.
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Post by Nanook on Jun 18, 2008 13:24:54 GMT -5
Are you saying you know there are other angels? I wish that I could. Sadly, the only Angel I currently know about is myself.
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Post by Mister Blockey on Jun 18, 2008 13:27:59 GMT -5
We're down 6 townies and have hit a single demon. Lynching a townie because their play style is hurting the town somewhat is starting to feel a bit dangerous. How do you know Tdpats and Mole were townies? I don't know that. They're not even in the list. For clarification the known roles we are down: Had a Big Helping of a McDead Sandwich8. hockeyguy8435, Demon Lord - Lynched Day One6. Hal Briston, Possessed Human - Killed Night One11. kidvermicious, Warlock (Nexus/Governor) - Killed Night One21. stardragonman, Survivor - Lynched Day Two17. Rebel, Survivor - Killed Night Two19. ryjae, Demon Hunter (Cop/Vig) - Killed Night Two5. FlyingCowofDoom, Survivor - Lynched Day Three I'm not going to even consider what TD and mole were until I know for sure. This games just too confusing for that. (Hopefully we're lucky though, and one of em's a demon, I still wouldn't want to lynch town.)
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Post by Mister Blockey on Jun 18, 2008 13:32:45 GMT -5
I'm a little less worried about Nanook's claim as I'm guessing that there are plenty of complications going on here, and there may well be more than one kind of doctor. Still though, why are the doctors claiming with a little bit of flavor info, and we haven't gotten a cop to claim with any real information.
(Yes I know holy water cop is dead, but I find it pretty darn likely that there's another cop out there who isn't specifically tied to D2mons and only D2mons.)
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Post by NAF1138 on Jun 18, 2008 15:57:22 GMT -5
Fuck people, there are about 28 hours left in the Day and 7 (if I counted right) people who haven't posted enough to not be mod killed.
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Post by bufftabby on Jun 18, 2008 16:55:17 GMT -5
I don't think I'm buying this explanation. Ryjae had made it pretty clear that he had an assortment of useful abilities. I don't see why you'd put faith in someone else to block the attack on an obviously important role. vote Hockey Monkey This is such post-facto crap that it's unbelievable. At the time, there was no more reason to believe ryjae than to believe me. Sure, now ryjae is dead and I'm not, so his alignment is confirmed and mine is not, but not when hockey was making her choice of who to protect. I also have "an assortment of useful abilities." How was hockey to know whether one or both of us was being truthful? Well, that's certainly one way to look at it. But I'm personally more inclined to believe a "holy water guy" type is more likely to be town than "zombie raiser" guy. I think you're a PFK and up to no good, and most assuredly intend to lynch you before the number of zombies rises to threatening levels, so I'm not too concerned about any criticism you might have of me. The grain of salt involved in anything you say is large enough to block out the sun.
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Post by Hawkmod on Jun 18, 2008 17:58:34 GMT -5
Well, that's certainly one way to look at it. But I'm personally more inclined to believe a "holy water guy" type is more likely to be town than "zombie raiser" guy. . We are not trying to determine if Hockey made the right strategic move. We are trying to determine if Hockey is being truthful.
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Post by bufftabby on Jun 18, 2008 18:42:52 GMT -5
Well, that's certainly one way to look at it. But I'm personally more inclined to believe a "holy water guy" type is more likely to be town than "zombie raiser" guy. . We are not trying to determine if Hockey made the right strategic move. We are trying to determine if Hockey is being truthful. And I'm pretty sure she's not.
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Post by storyteller0910 on Jun 18, 2008 19:49:40 GMT -5
This is such post-facto crap that it's unbelievable. At the time, there was no more reason to believe ryjae than to believe me. Sure, now ryjae is dead and I'm not, so his alignment is confirmed and mine is not, but not when hockey was making her choice of who to protect. I also have "an assortment of useful abilities." How was hockey to know whether one or both of us was being truthful? Well, that's certainly one way to look at it. But I'm personally more inclined to believe a "holy water guy" type is more likely to be town than "zombie raiser" guy. I think you're a PFK and up to no good, and most assuredly intend to lynch you before the number of zombies rises to threatening levels, so I'm not too concerned about any criticism you might have of me. The grain of salt involved in anything you say is large enough to block out the sun. This game is so fucking frustrating. You want to lynch me based on the color. The god-damned motherfucking color. You know what? Fine. Lynch me. Go ahead. You have no evidence, none, that I'm up to anything bad. I've done nothing you can point to as anti-Town. But you've decided that I'm scum based on the motherfucking color, because God knows the color is always an accurate gauge of alignment and role, and you're so set in that that you're allowing it to color your approach not only to me, but to other players. So honestly, kill me, because at least then this ridiculous, ooh, zombies must mean evil nonsense will die and you (and the rest of the Town) can stop approaching situations from the standpoint of wrongheaded, evidence-free preconceptions. Maintaining a healthy distance from belief of all claims is a wise approach. Deciding on the basis of no evidence that you know the score, and basing all of your decisions on the assumption that you're right about the score, is not. So fucking kill me. God almighty, I've never been this frustrated before. Is it really so hard for everyone to imagine that the whole point of my freaking role is to create doubt? Jesus.
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Post by storyteller0910 on Jun 18, 2008 19:55:11 GMT -5
Well, that's certainly one way to look at it. But I'm personally more inclined to believe a "holy water guy" type is more likely to be town than "zombie raiser" guy. And another thing, because this crap above is just ridiculous. The only reason that you currently know that ryjae was what he claimed to be was because he is now dead. So even this silly justification - that a "Holy Water Guy" is more likely to be Town than a Necromancer - relies on assuming hockeymonkey knew that ryjae was telling the truth about his claim. Which, for the love of Pete, she couldn't have known! GAAAH!
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Post by storyteller0910 on Jun 18, 2008 19:55:47 GMT -5
Shit, can a mod fix that last thing there. I meant to elide the rest of the quote and left it in instead.
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Hockey Monkey!
Borogrove
This is supposed to be a happy occasion. Let's not bicker over who killed who.
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Post by Hockey Monkey! on Jun 18, 2008 20:16:47 GMT -5
Well, that's certainly one way to look at it. But I'm personally more inclined to believe a "holy water guy" type is more likely to be town than "zombie raiser" guy. I think you're a PFK and up to no good, and most assuredly intend to lynch you before the number of zombies rises to threatening levels, so I'm not too concerned about any criticism you might have of me. The grain of salt involved in anything you say is large enough to block out the sun. This game is so fucking frustrating. You want to lynch me based on the color. The god-damned motherfucking color. You know what? Fine. Lynch me. Go ahead. You have no evidence, none, that I'm up to anything bad. I've done nothing you can point to as anti-Town. But you've decided that I'm scum based on the motherfucking color, because God knows the color is always an accurate gauge of alignment and role, and you're so set in that that you're allowing it to color your approach not only to me, but to other players. So honestly, kill me, because at least then this ridiculous, ooh, zombies must mean evil nonsense will die and you (and the rest of the Town) can stop approaching situations from the standpoint of wrongheaded, evidence-free preconceptions. Maintaining a healthy distance from belief of all claims is a wise approach. Deciding on the basis of no evidence that you know the score, and basing all of your decisions on the assumption that you're right about the score, is not. So fucking kill me. God almighty, I've never been this frustrated before. Is it really so hard for everyone to imagine that the whole point of my freaking role is to create doubt? Jesus. Jesus H. Christ is more like it. There are people who are so convinced they are right they can't see any alternatives. Every single time I've thought I had someone dead to rights, I couldn't have been more wrong. Take the blinders off people! I get where you are coming from story.
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Post by Rysto on Jun 18, 2008 20:22:58 GMT -5
Right, on to blockey. I've debated this for a long time, and I think that I need to come out with a critical piece of information: we are not just facing Demons in this game. We are also facing the Horsemen of the Apocalypse. The Horsemen are the PFKs in this game. My PM implies that they are working independently. I don't know how many of them are in the game: I would guess more than 1 and less than 4, but I have no hard information on the subject. Hopefully this will clarify why I've been hounding blockey over the Ronnie Soak thing: the fact that his mind jumped to an obscure character from a single Discworld novel who just happens to be a Horseman of the Apocalypse seems very unlikely to me, unless he had a good reason to believe that their were Horsemen in the game. Frankly, I think that he's a Horseman and I want him dead before he gets near whatever his win condition is. I can also give a partial explanation of why I was after Nanook, too. When he mentioned Day Two that he knew that there were "third parties" in the game, I assumed that he meant it in the sense that there were non-Townie, non-Demon factions in the game, and was referring to the Horsemen. That got a raised eyebrow from me: I found it unlikely(though not impossible) that there were two pro-Town roles who knew about the Horsemen. His attack on RyJae looked very opportunistic at the time, and his surety that RyJae was some kind of PFK told me that he knew that there were PFKs in the game. Between what I felt was a fairly major disconnect between his actions(soft-claiming without provocation) and his vote for RyJae(partially based on the fact that RyJae soft-claimed without provocation) and my estimation of the likelihood of duplication of my information among Townies, I figured that he was more likely to be a Horseman than scum so I voted for him.
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Post by Mister Blockey on Jun 18, 2008 20:39:15 GMT -5
Please Rysto, do tell how you got this information about horsemen of the apocalypse.
I made the ronnie soak jump based entirely off of my love of discworld combined with my knowledge that Atarus read discworld novels, and the fact the whole horsemen of the apocalypse has, well the word APOCALYPSE in it.
So ummm how do you know there are pfk horsemen.....?
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Post by Rysto on Jun 18, 2008 20:47:38 GMT -5
I made the ronnie soak jump based entirely off of my love of discworld combined with my knowledge that Atarus read discworld novels, and the fact the whole horsemen of the apocalypse has, well the word APOCALYPSE in it. Really? I thought that you made that leap based on the fact you both love Good Omens. Which is not a Discworld novel. And doesn't even contain Ronnie Soak. Keep digging.
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