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Post by Høøpy Frøød on Aug 18, 2008 18:57:03 GMT -5
Current count:
Drainbead 4: Rugger, Pollux Oil, Klutz, bufftabby
Duke of Scotland 1: drainbead
Pedescribe 3: Idle, Ro0sh, Parzival
Rugger 1: Creepy Doll's Ghost
So the ultimate gist of the vote against Drainbead is that she didn't trigger the countdown at a point where it would have been to town's benefit to do so, especially since the Day would be unlikely to be cut short at that point unless the countdown was particularly short.
(Note that I mentioned the previous day (i.e. Saturday) my reluctance to trigger the countdown in case we had a short countdown, since that would end the Day early which is generally not a postive for town.)
Sorry, but that's a real stretch. Was the action anti-town? Sure. There was no harm to be done in voting and unvoting Ro0sh just to trigger the countdown. She claims that she didn't want to put her vote on someone she didn't want to see lynched, but I don't think anyone would have considered her vote-and-subsequent-unvote an official vote for Ro0sh when they go back and do vote analysis. At worst it would be an asterisk with everyone being reminded she did it to purely trigger the countdown. After all, there were a few who jumped off the Ro0sh-wagon once the countdown started. So to be fair to those who are voting for her, her defense is weak.
But to be fair to her, so is the rationale for voting for her. Ro0sh pretty much explained the reasoning behind that, so I'm not going to reiterate. The only one who has added any valid additional reasoning for voting is Pollux. And to his credit, even he says the the using the lack of triggering a vote countdown as a reason to vote is weak. However, he makes two additional points that he believes when taken in tandem with the other point make a more compelling case than voting for anyone else. I disagree, but I can respect his analysis and don't believe he's wrong per se. I just think we have a better option, which I'll get to.
But I put this forward to the rest of you: Why has everyone ignored rugger's anti-town vote at the end of yesterDay? You know, his one-off on drainbead when Duke and Roosh were battling for who was going to go to the hotseat. Rugger made no argument that Duke was scum. Rugger admitted that he would be fine with a lynch of Ro0sh. But instead of voting for Ro0sh, he votes a meaningless vote. A vote that won't change anything at the end of the Day. A vote that helps someone he (apparently) doesn't believe to be guilty go to the chair instead of someone he believes should. And since Rugger loves to pull out the "I did this as scum" argument fairly often, I pulled that crap in my second game as a first time scum. Had Ro0sh not messed around with the horse, Duke would have been lynched. Had Rugger voted Ro0sh, there would have been a tie. We would have even seen what happens in the case of ties.
But instead, we got a bad play. A vote that easily could have been put off for a Day. And we've clearly shown people more than willing to support that vote.
Does this potentially anti-town play make rugger scummy? I don't believe so. I think it was just bad strategy. But why are you all so ready to send someone else to the lynch due to bad strategy? Is it because Rugger is "the obviously innocent townie"? Is that all it takes? If he wasn't, would you be voting for him? Do you really think with only two votes shy of triggering the countdown, scum would intentionally put off triggering it in the hopes that sometime in the next 17 hours or so no one would notice and the countdown wouldn't be triggered? As we saw, it clearly got triggered by people more than willing to do so.
Yet, we have a character that a PM indicates he's lying. He also claimed that he was dangerous for us to interact with, yet, he willingly tried to interact with us. Someone who made up a bogus claim might easily forget the intricacies of his claim since they really don't apply.
So is drainbead scum? Is drainbead town? Is drainbead PFK? Who knows. I don't. But I've seen Jell-O more solid than the case against her currently stands.
So my vote will go to who I think has the strongest case against them:
vote pedescribe[/color]
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Santo Rugger
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The Obviously Innocent Townie
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Post by Santo Rugger on Aug 18, 2008 22:33:19 GMT -5
FoS on Hoopy, I was very seriously considering changing my vote to ped, but with Hoopsters huge smudge on me, which I'll address when I'm sober, makes me think he's smudging me to try to save drainBead.
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Post by Pollux Oil on Aug 18, 2008 22:48:28 GMT -5
So is drainbead scum? Is drainbead town? Is drainbead PFK? Who knows. I don't. But I've seen Jell-O more solid than the case against her currently stands. Mmk. Let me present a new perspective on this and we'll see where we go from there. I'm going to dip into the old mafia advice bag here and pull out a NAFism: Let's talk about motivation. Now, when scum make a false role claim, what is their motivation? Well, it depends on what their role is, but usually it's to survive. They want to last longer, and especially if they're under pressure, they want the town to think they aren't expendable. Now there are special cases, like zuma in Batman, where he wanted to be lynched because of his special power. But in the general sense, scum want to make a claim that will either extend their lifespan for a couple Days or net them useful information. Or preferably both. Why did storyteller claim Detective in Cecilvania? Because the town wouldn't risk killing a possible Detective on Day One, AND it might net the real Detective. Why did Nanook claim Witch in Conspiracy 2? Because the town wouldn't risk killing a possible Witch on Day One, AND it might net a real Witch for the Cabal. So let's just take this for a moment and look at drainbead and pedescribe's claims, since they seem to be the ones vying for the executioner's affections right now. Drainbead's Claim:Analysis: She can't explain her full role or else she'll lose her powers. Convenient. Her power, however, lets her investigate to some degree. Something useful to the town. The only thing her power has given her right now is she knows somebody is not scum. Somebody that's already been tested and axe-bounciness approved. Given only after she's gotten significant pressure and a somewhat high lynch candidate. Scummytude: out of 5. Pedescribe's Claim:Analysis: This came with little to no prompting, he wasn't in danger. Says he did it for the town's benefit: didn't want anybody else to catch it. His "power" is timed in real months, not Days. He's not particularly helpful to the town. However, his role does discourage the town from acting against him for fear of catching the "disease." This would help a scum stay out of trouble. Scummytude: out of 5. ---- Now just by role-claim analysis by itself, drainbead's role claim is dripping with scum motivation. It's convenient and vague, she doesn't have to explain any more, and it's detrimental to the town. Meanwhile, pedescribe's role claim is completely useless to the town. In fact, it does the opposite of what a manufactured scum claim should do: it draws attention to him because of the absurdity of the way his claim supposedly works. Real-time months instead of Days? However, it's what happens AFTER pedescribe's roleclaim that is scummy. Not caring about the mysterious PM (which I still strongly believe should be discounted as hooey since we have no idea who the source is or if it could even be the truth) the following particular contradiction catches my eye: Pedescribe came forth with his claim saying he didn't want to play marbles for fear of others catching it. Yet now he doesn't care about taking a hot potato. In fact, he specifically took the hot potato so he could take it to Cookies. (Post #21) So here's where I stand. I still feel drainbead is scummy and slightly more scummy than pedescribe. However, I also feel that pedescribe's been acting fishy. I would like a further explanation from him. I do not mind seeing either one lynched toDay with the current information we have. What I do mind is not having a countdown and not getting information. The lazy Gmod said toDay would end BEFORE Thursday, which means we have 48 hours at most to get the countdown started. The count is tied right now at 4 a piece, but if the pedescribe movement gains more heat than drainbead's by the time I check in tomorrow, I will move my vote there to activate the countdown. Barring new evidence, once the countdown starts I will most likely move my vote back to drainbead as I still find her most scummiest.
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Post by Captain Klutz on Aug 19, 2008 4:04:42 GMT -5
Interestin dis, tho (frum Wikipedia): Drain Bead, did you have anything to do with the birds? If you're not allowed to answer, try this: if you have special knowledge of the birds, do a vote Captain Klutz. If you don't know anything about the birds then just FOS Captain Klutz. Maybe check with the mods first, but surely you're allowed to (mis)vote.
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Post by Høøpy Frøød on Aug 19, 2008 6:52:43 GMT -5
FoS on Hoopy, I was very seriously considering changing my vote to ped, but with Hoopsters huge smudge on me, which I'll address when I'm sober, makes me think he's smudging me to try to save drainBead. Calling you out for what I consider bad strategy is not a smudge. If I thought you were scum I'd vote for you in a second. I don't. In fact, you're the only one here who's confirmed town at this point. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: The mod's have yet to lie to us. Does Drainbead's claim seem a bit wonky to me? Yes. Is it enough to vote for her? I'm not sure yet. But Pollux makes some points about her claim that I didn't fully grasp the significance of until he explained them better. That kind of logic I can get behind. But the original reasoning for the vote on her is bad in my opinion and I still hold to that. What would scum have to gain by obviously delaying triggering something that would be beneficial to town? Maybe if the scum player were the only one who could do so it would be strategic, but with merely roughly 1/6 of the remaining players in this game who haven't voted on the vote leader needed to trigger the countdown anyway, it's horrible strategy. You've got more experience playing with drainbead than I do. Do you honestly think she's that bad of a player? We're not talking about a scum slip in her actions; we're talking about a concious effort to do something that has little benefit in exchange for drawing attention to yourself. Convince me why scum would do that, and I'll take back my criticism of the original voting logic. And I'd still like to know why you think Drainbead was better than Ro0sh at the time.
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Post by Drain Bead on Aug 19, 2008 9:17:17 GMT -5
Interestin dis, tho (frum Wikipedia): Drain Bead, did you have anything to do with the birds? If you're not allowed to answer, try this: if you have special knowledge of the birds, do a vote Captain Klutz. If you don't know anything about the birds then just FOS Captain Klutz. Maybe check with the mods first, but surely you're allowed to (mis)vote. I had nothing to do with their appearance, but I did feed them (after being reluctant to mess with any of the other items) because I thought they might help me.
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Post by The Real FCOD on Aug 19, 2008 10:08:43 GMT -5
Right now, Mr. Scummyboots, esq. is most suspicious of drainbead. The reluctance to start the countdown was most suspicious, and Mr. Scummyboots, esq. agrees that her "claim" just drips of "scummytude" (good one, Pollux!). Seeing as how we definitely want to start the countdown (regardless of whom we lynch) Mr. Scummyboots, esq. will go ahead and Vote drainbead. It seems to Mr. Scummyboots, esq. that Pedescribe is clearly lying about something, but Mr. Scummyboots, esq. thinks that drainbead might be the better lynch candidate for toDay.
--FCOD
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Santo Rugger
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The Obviously Innocent Townie
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Post by Santo Rugger on Aug 19, 2008 10:39:31 GMT -5
And I'd still like to know why you think Drainbead was better than Ro0sh at the time. I'm going to have to respond in pieces, because I'm quite busy today. However, my vote wasn't because I thought Drainbead was a better candidate than Ro0sh, it was because I thought she was a better candidate than Duke. I still do, hence my immediate vote right out of the gate today. As for your argument of, "well, scum would never do something that obvious", I stifle my laughter.
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Post by bufftabby on Aug 19, 2008 10:50:53 GMT -5
So the ultimate gist of the vote against Drainbead is that she didn't trigger the countdown at a point where it would have been to town's benefit to do so, especially since the Day would be unlikely to be cut short at that point unless the countdown was particularly short. I stated explicitly when I voted for drainbead that I was voting for her because of the inconsistency in the reasoning she expressed for not wanting to start the countdown. Captain Klutz originally noted the inconsistencies, and I found myself agreeing with him on that. Since then, she's made a role claim that supposedly has investigative powers. I have reason to believe there is another investigative role about, and I really don't see Town as having 4 investigative roles. I'm convinced she's lying.
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Merestil Haye
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Post by Merestil Haye on Aug 19, 2008 11:35:03 GMT -5
I'll hold off voting for now. Maybe tomorrow morning. I want to see the countdown started, so I'll vote if it helps push someone over the edge.
I don't really have any feeling about scummitude in this game at all, because it's all been so confusing, and my motivation was a tad on the low side.
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Parzival
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Post by Parzival on Aug 19, 2008 12:24:58 GMT -5
Drainbead's Claim:Analysis: She can't explain her full role or else she'll lose her powers. Convenient. Her power, however, lets her investigate to some degree. Something useful to the town. The only thing her power has given her right now is she knows somebody is not scum. Somebody that's already been tested and axe-bounciness approved. Given only after she's gotten significant pressure and a somewhat high lynch candidate. I think it's important to note that, if you believe her, she knew Roosh was not scum before he was tested on the block. In fact, that's one big part of her defense. Moreover, comparing her claim to pedescribe's is absurd, as the reason they occurred came at completely different times. While at first it was hard to know how plausible a role like his was, as time goes on the game seems to make a little more sense and his role makes less sense. Even if it was out of the blue, it's essentially "please let me lurk and don't try to lynch me or else", which is ideal scum cover. Then we have evidence that he lied, which hasn't been adequately defended at all. Something seriously fishy is going on with him. I don't find the case against drainbead anywhere near as compelling. Unrelated, it never hurts to ask directly: Mods, how long will the countdown today be (if we can get it started)?
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Post by Høøpy Frøød on Aug 19, 2008 12:34:35 GMT -5
And I'd still like to know why you think Drainbead was better than Ro0sh at the time. I'm going to have to respond in pieces, because I'm quite busy today. However, my vote wasn't because I thought Drainbead was a better candidate than Ro0sh, it was because I thought she was a better candidate than Duke. I still do, hence my immediate vote right out of the gate today. Fair enough, but do you see my point that a your vote was effectively a vote for duke anyway since the vote was so close between Ro0sh and duke that by not voting Ro0sh, who you said yourself you were fine lynching, you effectively were letting Duke swing. If Ro0sh had not messed around with the horse, duke might be dead. I'm sorry if my post came across as smudging you, but my point was that I disagreed with your vote strategy and that I don't consider bad strategy alone a scum tell. Especially since it's coming from someone who's mod-confirmed. You may feel you did the right thing and that's fine. I can disagree with your strategy, but I'm not going to try to change how you play the game. So I still don't believe that drainbead's non-triggering of the countdown was necessarily scummy. But I seem to be the vast minority on that point, and those who find it scummy have a lot more games under their belts than I do. (This is only my second time playing with drainbead and third time overall.) I do find her role-claim odd, and that puts her under suspicion from me. I would be okay with switching my vote to her, particularly if we can trigger a countdown out of it, but I would probably switch back to pedescribe afterwards, since he pings me more. I will say this, though. Why are there only 9 votes from players out there right now? Where's everybody else?
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Santo Rugger
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The Obviously Innocent Townie
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Post by Santo Rugger on Aug 19, 2008 12:45:43 GMT -5
I may have to admit a mistake, that is, I thought Duke was already ahead of RoOsh. Regardless, I thought (and still think) Duke was a scotsman, so I wouldn't mind having him around as verified town. So, you may be right, it may have been poor play.
Regardless, I still think drainbead is fishy as all get out, and was and am voting for whom I find -most- scummy.
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Post by NAF1138 on Aug 19, 2008 15:05:17 GMT -5
Unrelated, it never hurts to ask directly: Mods, how long will the countdown today be (if we can get it started)? No, it never does hurt to ask directly. Nice thought.
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Gir!
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What? Kat is sweet and innocent!
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Post by Gir! on Aug 19, 2008 17:59:07 GMT -5
K, Im a lil bit moar suspishus ov pedescribe rite nao, basd on his 180 ovar teh supposd dangr in interactin wif him, addd 2 his complete an total disappearance aftr he wuz supposedly goin 2 katch up.
I wud, tho, liek 2 hear moar frum drainbead. Bout wut? Bout whatevr she can tell us. She claims to has no othr useful informashun. Wut informashun do u has dat u doan finkz iz useful? Cuz somethin u finkz iz useles mite not be.
Vote pedescribe
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RoOsh
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Post by RoOsh on Aug 19, 2008 18:28:26 GMT -5
Hey guys, I've finally moved in, and I have an internet connection again. However, this will probably be my last game of mafia for a while, as School is quite hard. (I start tomorrow officially). But I will try to check on this site at least once every night, but it def. means I'm cutting back, both here and on the Dope. That said, it's good to be back and all. Congrats NAF on your big Day, and best wishes to your new family. I think it's important to note that, if you believe her, she knew Roosh was not scum before he was tested on the block. In fact, that's one big part of her defense. I hate to be the Devil's Advocate when the person is defending ME of all things.... But don't forget my little townies- anyone who is Scum can EASILY "become" an investigative role that ALWAYS will get accurate "not scum" results. So uh... I know she's not lying about me not being scum... but that doesn't mean I'm going to trust her MORE for it... as there are more than one ways to skin a cadaver when pertaining to that little tidbit of info.... Also, do you all REALLY have that many investigative powers? Rajaat the Ransacker was pretty much there ONLY on Day 1 and since then he's done nothing. Which is odd... because if he's pro-town, he's pretty much painted a target onto himself for any anti-town role to NK him. So it's interesting to note that he's not been killed yet. AND it's also interesting to note that he's not been USING his ransacking skills. This implies one of two things for me: 1. He had a one shot ability, or perhaps a limited use one (though then if he was Town, he'd want to use them up quickly, as his existence is uncertain) <-This little nugget also makes me want to rule out the "he's stocking them up to use later" as again- limited lifespan means optimal play is to use them up quickly. 2. He's not worried about dying at night. Either he's very cocksure about the value of himself or the protector's faith in him... or he's got some other tricks up his sleeve. Both pro-town and Anti-town reasoning can WIFOM on that one. But keep trying my little fleshbagsm just don't forget the little details! That said, I'm still content with my Vote on the Leper. As he's the only one who's been ACTING quite scummy vs. the others, and I simply don't believe him period. He's not given any reason for me to change my mind over the hot potato and other issues. *flips the Old Coin*
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Post by Høøpy Frøød on Aug 20, 2008 8:17:52 GMT -5
With Kat's vote we now have enough total players outside of drainbead voting to trigger a countdown. (We can assume drain's not going to be voting for herself.) The Day began a week ago. Clearly we're not on the normal 5 + 2 schedule here, but I highly doubt this Day will extend past midnight tonight, especially since we were told the Day would end before Thursday. Since we're evenly divided, one side will have to move over to the other if we want full role-disclosure from anyone upon death. So in hopes that my fellow ped voters follow suit, I will unvote pedescribe[/color] and vote drainbead temporarily until the countdown is triggered or until this early evening, whichever comes first.
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Merestil Haye
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Post by Merestil Haye on Aug 20, 2008 8:51:25 GMT -5
*Pokes nose in.*
It is desirable to get a countdown going. DrainBead is on six votes to Pedescribe's four.
Vote Drain Bead.
For Great Countdown!
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Post by Hal Briston on Aug 20, 2008 10:05:59 GMT -5
I dunno...drain raises my hackles a bit, but I just can't get behind the leper claim. So...
Vote pedescribe[/b]
In other news, I know someone out there would like to partake in some of this excellent HOT POTATO. Step right up...no shoving now...
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Koldanar
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Post by Koldanar on Aug 20, 2008 10:12:21 GMT -5
I'm not entirely sure of the pede votes, and hell, I'm the one that got the dream about him. For what its worth, the Mods have not lied to us (as someone has mentioned) but, that doesn't mean they won't pass along things to players that THEY have to lie about. Pede might have a liar role for all we really know.
Drain Bead does worry me, but so to does this game. We can't absolutely tell whether whats going on for her is mod related or scum related. As it stands though, I would rather move on her behavior as scum related, and not has out any WIFOM situations with mod involvement / role setup.
vote Drain Bead[/color]
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Aug 20, 2008 11:15:52 GMT -5
vote pedescribe
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Post by NAF1138 on Aug 20, 2008 13:08:17 GMT -5
I was going to give you all a 12 hour warning, but I wasn't able to get to the boards an hour ago, so you get an 10 hour 51 minute warning instead.
Day will end in 10 hours and 51 minutes. Midnight Central time. This is shorter than the countdown would be, but you can still call the executioner if you reach the vote threshold. No day extension though. The Day was long enough as it was.
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Post by Rajaat on Aug 20, 2008 15:54:57 GMT -5
Heh, I was going to go with Merestil on this, but I logged in to find everything moved ahead anyways. I'll hold my vote, since we already have the countdown. I'll throw it on top of predescribe's lynch if someone moves another candidate real quick. Wouldn't want anyone to sneak a kill in.
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Koldanar
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Post by Koldanar on Aug 20, 2008 16:07:32 GMT -5
But we DONT have the countdown...don't hold off!
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Trepa Mayfield
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Post by Trepa Mayfield on Aug 20, 2008 16:36:53 GMT -5
This is a post
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Trepa Mayfield
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Post by Trepa Mayfield on Aug 20, 2008 16:37:43 GMT -5
Now...let's see what happens when that hot potato goes off.
MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!
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Post by Rajaat on Aug 20, 2008 17:13:07 GMT -5
My mistake, then. Thanks Koldanar.
Vote: pedescribe[/color]
I swear, I keep reading predescribe when I look at his name.
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Post by Drain Bead on Aug 20, 2008 17:15:29 GMT -5
unvote Duke[/color] vote pedescribe[/color]
Unfortunately, I won't really have much time to post in the next few days--I have a really busy week and weekend coming up. I'll do my best to keep up, provided I'm not dead.
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Post by Høøpy Frøød on Aug 20, 2008 17:30:49 GMT -5
Well, since pedescribe has now taken the lead over drainbead and my switching to drainbead was done only because that seemed to be the way the wind was blowing at the time and I didn't want the countdown not to be triggered, I will now switch back.
unvote drainbead
vote pedescribe
This makes the current count:
Drainbead 7: Rugger, Pollux Oil, Klutz, bufftabby, Mr. Scummyboots, esq. , MHaye, Koldanar
Pedescribe 9: Idle, Ro0sh, Parzival, Kat!, Hal Briston, Cookies, Rajaat, drainbead, Hoopy Frood
Rugger 1: Creepy Doll's Ghost
We are only one vote away from triggering the countdown. The following people still don't have a vote in for toDay:
DiggitCamera, Duke, Pedescribe, and Nanook (just kidding about that last one, though, Nanook still shows as alive in the player list).
It'd be great if either one of you or someone on the drainbead wagon could vote pedescribe to guarantee the countdown is triggered. You don't have to keep your vote there, but at least trigger the thing.
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Trepa Mayfield
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Post by Trepa Mayfield on Aug 20, 2008 17:33:29 GMT -5
Yeesh, I thought my leper post would have had ya'll flinging your votes my way. I don't really care where you put your votes now...me, drainbead, duke, Klutz, whoever. If this hot potato does what I think it does, I'm good.
You see, my role (incedentally, voting for me doesn't cause leprosy) has a special clause involving daykills. Roosh, you might know about this. Let's just say I get...upset...if I'm not safely strapped to my bed when I'm killed.
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