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Post by Hawkmod on Oct 20, 2008 21:57:24 GMT -5
Really? This is what I get for posting before fully reading. I didn't want to post based on out of date info, so I did skipped a bit. I'll read the rest tomorrow morning, and reconsider giving a name claim based on the claimed powers. I don't know that people being able to confirm that I'm not lying about my name is terribly useful though.
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Post by KidVermicious on Oct 20, 2008 22:00:54 GMT -5
(snip a bunch)... but I think a KidV lynch gives us the most info. Unless I'm missing something, not lynching me gives the same info, if Pollux is willing to investigate me toNight.
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Santo Rugger
Mome Rath
The Obviously Innocent Townie
The Rugger formerly known as Pygmy[on:BYAHH!][of:BYAHH?]
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Post by Santo Rugger on Oct 20, 2008 22:02:42 GMT -5
Why would we waste an investigation like that? And how do we know he'll be alive in the Morning?
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Post by KidVermicious on Oct 20, 2008 22:03:24 GMT -5
Really? This is what I get for posting before fully reading. I didn't want to post based on out of date info, so I did skipped a bit. I'll read the rest tomorrow morning, and reconsider giving a name claim based on the claimed powers. I don't know that people being able to confirm that I'm not lying about my name is terribly useful though. Well, at least Chucara and I have powers based on knowing your name. If we don't know your name, we can't function with respect to you. So what I'm saying is, if you have nothing to hide in terms of alignment and night actions, you shouldn't be reluctant to name-claim at this point.
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Post by KidVermicious on Oct 20, 2008 22:11:08 GMT -5
Why would we waste an investigation like that? And how do we know he'll be alive in the Morning? Well, I think he's the most confirmed between the two of us, so I would hope that whatever Doc we've got left would protect him over me. I'm almost certain to die tonight anyway, but why do the scums work for them? Incidentally, I strongly believe we've got another Doc around. This is a no-vanilla game. If they don't kill me, they're in trouble, because with most everybodies rolename out there, I'm the highest-functioning detective we've got (if I'm alive). Pollux has a failure chance built-in, and Chucara only gets actions. And how is that a wasted action on his part? I mean, I could dig it if I was claiming vanilla, but I'm not. He's going to investigate somebody tonight, why not a claimed power role with the upside I've got? Thats why you shouldn't lynch me.
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Santo Rugger
Mome Rath
The Obviously Innocent Townie
The Rugger formerly known as Pygmy[on:BYAHH!][of:BYAHH?]
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Post by Santo Rugger on Oct 20, 2008 22:28:44 GMT -5
I don't believe your claimed role is higher functioning than Pollux's, and your claimed role won't be able to discern the difference between scum and PFK, because they'll have LIED about their name.
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Post by Høøpy Frøød on Oct 20, 2008 22:29:37 GMT -5
Well, yeah, if you're going to lynch a detective, I'm less confirmed than Pollux is, but why are you talking about lynching him? I don't understand why you're setting up that dichotomy. You misunderstand. I wasn't referring to Pollux at all. I was referring to NAF. He is acting as a pro-town detective with the ability to out scum. (Note I didn't say he claimed he was town, I said he was claiming to act pro-town.) And so are you. And you two are in contention with each other. So if it's a choice between him or you, it's probably going to be you. He's given us info, and at this point it would be worse to lose his power than yours. Them's the breaks. Also, lynching him tells us nothing about you. We still need pollux to investigate you. Lynching you will tell us a lot about him. And Pollux can investigate someone else. Your claim has given us nothing we didn't have from another source and is easily made up. You're going to need to give us a lot more.
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Post by KidVermicious on Oct 20, 2008 22:34:36 GMT -5
I don't believe your claimed role is higher functioning than Pollux's, and your claimed role won't be able to discern the difference between scum and PFK, because they'll have LIED about their name. But I'll know they lied, shouldn't that be enough? And if we HAVE to know what their name is, I can find that out too. With no chance of failure (excepting blocks, redirections, etc). The way I understand it, I give Story a rolename. I get back Town, 3rd Party, Scum, or "no effect".
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Santo Rugger
Mome Rath
The Obviously Innocent Townie
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Post by Santo Rugger on Oct 20, 2008 22:38:34 GMT -5
That's the way I understand it, too. But we're getting to crunch time. We need to start narrowing down who's town, who's scum, AND who's PFK. Not who's town, and who's scum OR PFK.
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Post by Høøpy Frøød on Oct 20, 2008 22:39:02 GMT -5
Last action for today. Unvote KidVAnd why in the world do these types of discussions happen right up against the bell? Partly because the middle of the Day tends to be quieter. It always happens. And the fact that the middle of the Day falls on a weekend, which for some of us we actually have less online time, we tend to have a dearth of posting on Saturday and Sunday.
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Post by KidVermicious on Oct 20, 2008 22:44:38 GMT -5
Well, yeah, if you're going to lynch a detective, I'm less confirmed than Pollux is, but why are you talking about lynching him? I don't understand why you're setting up that dichotomy. You misunderstand. I wasn't referring to Pollux at all. I was referring to NAF. He is acting as a pro-town detective with the ability to out scum. (Note I didn't say he claimed he was town, I said he was claiming to act pro-town.) And so are you. And you two are in contention with each other. So if it's a choice between him or you, it's probably going to be you. He's given us info, and at this point it would be worse to lose his power than yours. Them's the breaks. Also, lynching him tells us nothing about you. We still need pollux to investigate you. Lynching you will tell us a lot about him. And Pollux can investigate someone else. Your claim has given us nothing we didn't have from another source and is easily made up. You're going to need to give us a lot more. Well, OK. Again, I've got nothing else to give right now, but my upside is way better than what NAF has claimed. And thats assuming you can trust him. Which you can't. Tonight, Pollux is going to confirm a towny or out a scum. There's no reason to lynch me when you've got a 3rd party in hand, and another way to confirm me. We'll open Day Six with another confirmed town, a detective to boot, or I'll be NK'd and you'll get the info from this lynch you would have gotten anyway, but you'll make the scum kill me to get it, instead of burning a mislynch. Which reminds me - Nanook, does your power only work on the player you end the Day voting for? Or would bouncing your vote over to me and back to Hoopy let you raise me down the road? If I live through this lynch but die toNight, I'll still have something to share.
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Post by KidVermicious on Oct 20, 2008 22:48:51 GMT -5
That's the way I understand it, too. But we're getting to crunch time. We need to start narrowing down who's town, who's scum, AND who's PFK. Not who's town, and who's scum OR PFK. And NAF is going to do that for you? I don't mean to be confrontational, thats the last thing I want to be right now. But again, if we have to know their rolename, I can find that out with power a. I get alignment with power b.
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Post by Høøpy Frøød on Oct 20, 2008 22:55:01 GMT -5
Why would we waste an investigation like that? And how do we know he'll be alive in the Morning? Well, I think he's the most confirmed between the two of us, so I would hope that whatever Doc we've got left would protect him over me. I'm almost certain to die tonight anyway, but why do the scums work for them? Incidentally, I strongly believe we've got another Doc around. This is a no-vanilla game. Except for we've already had evidence that scum likely have a blocker out there. So what's to stop them from blocking Pollux. Sure the Doc protects him, but a blocked detective is no better than vanilla. And CIAS's role implies he could overcome docs. Rysto's role confirms that there is the ability out there to bypass protects. There might be multiple ways to accomplish this. I still think we risk more by lynching NAF at this point than lynching you. NAF is a guaranteed mislynch as far as the numbers go. And if he's telling the truth, he's very dangerous to scum. So much so that they will want to kill him. We've lynched a PFK for them, it's about time they return the favor for us by night killing one of them. Also his ability and Pollux's combined are better than yours and Pollux's combined. We lynch you and you're scum. No mislynch. We lynch you and you're town. Full mislynch. We lynch NAF. Half mislynch. If you were even money at being town or scum, the lynch here is a wash. The average result is a half of a mislynch no matter who we lynch by luck. But, the evidence points more to you being scum than town. Plus, if you aren't a horseman, we get NAF the next day. It's not a bad trade.
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Post by KidVermicious on Oct 20, 2008 23:23:19 GMT -5
Except for we've already had evidence that scum likely have a blocker out there. So what's to stop them from blocking Pollux. Sure the Doc protects him, but a blocked detective is no better than vanilla. And CIAS's role implies he could overcome docs. Rysto's role confirms that there is the ability out there to bypass protects. There might be multiple ways to accomplish this. I still think we risk more by lynching NAF at this point than lynching you. NAF is a guaranteed mislynch as far as the numbers go. And if he's telling the truth, he's very dangerous to scum. So much so that they will want to kill him. We've lynched a PFK for them, it's about time they return the favor for us by night killing one of them. Also his ability and Pollux's combined are better than yours and Pollux's combined. We lynch you and you're scum. No mislynch. We lynch you and you're town. Full mislynch. We lynch NAF. Half mislynch. If you were even money at being town or scum, the lynch here is a wash. The average result is a half of a mislynch no matter who we lynch by luck. But, the evidence points more to you being scum than town. Plus, if you aren't a horseman, we get NAF the next day. It's not a bad trade. Wow. This is so wrong. We must disagree with Mafia strategy on a fundamental level, I wish we weren't having this discussion with my neck in a noose. I think it's a reasonable assumption that there are 4 scum left. There are 16 players left on the player list. If we assume that scum need to control the vote to win, then it will take 5 more Day/Night cycles with no scum deaths before we're at LyLo. Just one scum death makes that 6 cycles, etc. It isn't critical that we nail scum now. It is becoming critical that we not hit Town tho, and investigator Town to boot. I'll grant that I might be marginally the better choice if I was vanilla, but I'm not. With myself confirming rolename alignments and Pollux confirming playername alignments, and (by my count) 9 unconfirmed players left on the list, we can have them ferreted out well before then. The odds of scum having two killers that can bypass a protection are slim, at best. And maybe it's gotten lost in all this hoorah, but I think the scum may have more to deal with than Pollux and I toNight. Read the opening color again. Lynching me is not the proper move here, even if you don't know I'm Town. Cuz the thing is, NAF is lying. And even if you don't know that like I do, a scum result on me doesn't give you any more info than you've got, because you can't trust NAF. He's third-party, and he's demonstrated personal motivation rather than Town even if you think he's telling the truth about me now. And when I turn up Town, you'll have lost another Town and detective power, and you won't know anything more about NAF, because you already know he's willing to lie. So you string him up Tomorrow, and you've STILL gained nothing. And you'll have to, scum won't kill him. I really think I'd be arguing this even if I wasn't on the block. I argued against Boozy, and I was right. I argued against Zeriel, and I was right. Is it so impossible that I'm right again? (OK, I argued for Peeker, and was wrong. Lets ignore that, M'kay? )
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Post by KidVermicious on Oct 20, 2008 23:24:45 GMT -5
But, the evidence points more to you being scum than town. Plus, if you aren't a horseman, we get NAF the next day. It's not a bad trade. NETA - the evidence supplied by a known liar with his own neck in the noose. Why are you guys giving it any creedence at all???
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Post by KidVermicious on Oct 20, 2008 23:46:23 GMT -5
I need to log off, morning comes early. My work schedule is going to keep me from checking in until an hour before Dusk, I promise to at least check in. I'll info-dump then, if I still look to go down, not that you all deserve it. I think some folks are leaving their vote on me out of inertia, at this point. I feel like I've countered every point thats been brought against me, and it seems like nobody is listening. Pay attention to this when I go down. You've got to lynch NAF eventually, whether or not he's right about me. He's not played straight with Town regarding his rolename or his alleged motivations (if he was, he should have "revealed" me as soon as he knew, not three Days later. He's trapped in his own prevarication there, and you don't need to lynch me to see it, but nobody is paying attention to that). You DON'T have to lynch me to get the info you want, you can lynch NAF now and lynch me tomorrow if I'm not confirmed town by Pollux. But if you lynch me now, you get no info, you still have to lynch NAF, and you've lost another Town. I got nothing else. This is a horrible, horrible lynch. I hope this isn't the nudge that puts town over the edge, but I don't know how to argue my case any better. I've tried everything I can. I've just got nothing else, and I'm tired of repeating myself now.
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Santo Rugger
Mome Rath
The Obviously Innocent Townie
The Rugger formerly known as Pygmy[on:BYAHH!][of:BYAHH?]
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Post by Santo Rugger on Oct 20, 2008 23:49:15 GMT -5
If you can give me a compelling vote for why NAF, as PFK, would lie about your alignment to get you lynched, I'll vote for him. Otherwise, I'm going to vote for you.
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Darth Sensitive
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With great power comes great responsibility / That's the catchphrase of Old Uncle Ben
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Post by Darth Sensitive on Oct 20, 2008 23:50:22 GMT -5
I am here and on pain meds after a nasty sprain of my ankle playing soccer. Will come back tomorrow with more thoughts, I hope.
I have skimmed to now and think I'm the only person left who hasn't claimed a name. (Maybe?) I have been waiting to now, because of the mason generated order - I feel my name would be a not bad fake claim.
I am Wanda Maximoff, the Scarlet Witch.
And peeker - how I wish I could go. I missed my chance to road trip to Mizzou with my group I see games with, and if I had tried about a month ago, I could have found a dorm floor and a ticket - but no way it's happening now. I am gonna get to make the Tech game though. Both teams are at the top of their games, and it should be damn good, especially without a Poke Choke.
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Gir!
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What? Kat is sweet and innocent!
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Post by Gir! on Oct 21, 2008 0:08:23 GMT -5
With just under 11 hours left, the Official Day Five Vote Count is:
MHaye (1) – bufftabby peekercpa (1) – Darth Sensitive KidVermicious (5) – NAF, Almost Human, FCOD, MHaye, Hoopy Frood Hoopy Frood (1) – Nanook NAF (1) – KidV
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Post by bufftabby on Oct 21, 2008 1:59:03 GMT -5
Holy shit, there's a lot going on.
unvote MHaye[/color] vote NAF[/color]
He needs to die. Why not now?
It is times like this when we need a Coroner.
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Post by diggitcamara on Oct 21, 2008 2:05:17 GMT -5
Well... here goes then:
Vote KidV
I have a bad feeling about this. We are trusting Apocalypse? Maybe KidV is a horseman... but I wouldn't let Apocalypse live for too long after that.
And, btw... since when is Wolverine's real name James Howlett? Wasn't it Logan?
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Merestil Haye
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Post by Merestil Haye on Oct 21, 2008 4:30:24 GMT -5
Well... here goes then: Vote KidVI have a bad feeling about this. We are trusting Apocalypse? Maybe KidV is a horseman... but I wouldn't let Apocalypse live for too long after that. And, btw... since when is Wolverine's real name James Howlett? Wasn't it Logan? Apparently not. It does say that he used Logan as an alias for a while though. My vote isn't there because I trust NAF; it's there to test him. Currently I don't know whether NAF is a scum or a third party actor. But consider; the life expectancy of anyone who admits they are not Town (and no true Townsman would make that claim) who fingers someone as scummy when they are not is as short as a very short thing. If this claim isn't made up out of whole cloth, then, it's quite likely that KidV is a Horseman, whether NAF is Apocalypse the 3rd party ex-leader or Apocalypse the master of the Horsemen. If we lynch KidV and he turns out not to be a Horseman, then when NAF subs out he'll leave whoever succeeds him a truly poisoned chalice, since we're going to lynch them immediately. I don't see NAF acting like that. KidV makes some very good points, particularly about trusting self-admitted liars. However, at this stage of the game, I think NAF's allegation is more likely to be true than not.
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Post by Pollux Oil on Oct 21, 2008 6:08:51 GMT -5
Doing this quickly before work, got to get going. Slept on it for a few hours before I decided to post and vote.
Here's my issue. Right now, we're trusting NAF's lists on why we should lynch Kid V. Now, what we're doing is assuming 1) that NAF actually got these lists through his role, and 2) NAF is telling the truth about the lists. What also bothers me is that his solo win condition seems to be extremely difficult. Obscenely difficult. And that's what we're really trusting NAF on right now. If he has a different solo win condition than the one he's told us, he could be anywhere near completing his objective and we'll never know.
Furthermore, does it strike anybody else as funny that for NAF's supposed solo win condition, he has to make sure Mr. Sinister dies and all the Horsemen live, and yet he doesn't have any way to determine who Mr. Sinister is? That just seems odd to me.
In addition, we still don't know what's going on with the Legacy Virus. Maybe NAF's actually behind it, or maybe the scum are, or maybe there's yet another Third-Party out there.
If we believe NAF is telling the whole truth about his role and solo win condition, then Kid V is a good lynch for toDay. But I don't think NAF is telling the whole truth.
Vote NAF
I won't be around for the end of the Day, work and all that.
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Post by storyteller0910 on Oct 21, 2008 7:16:09 GMT -5
UATU IS HIGHLY INTRIGUED. THE VOTE STANDS AS FOLLOWS:
KidVermicious (6) – NAF, Almost Human, FCOD, MHaye, Hoopy Frood, diggitcamara NAF (3) – KidV, Pollux Oil, bufftabby Hoopy Frood (1) – Nanook peekercpa (1) – Darth Sensitive
THE DAY ENDS AT 12:00PM TODAY, OR IN JUST UNDER FOUR HOURS. CARRY ON.
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Post by storyteller0910 on Oct 21, 2008 7:17:19 GMT -5
But consider; the life expectancy of anyone who admits they are not Town (and no true Townsman would make that claim) who fingers someone as scummy when they are not is as short as a very short thing. THIS METAPHOR PLEASES UATU.
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Post by Høøpy Frøød on Oct 21, 2008 7:46:30 GMT -5
UATU IS HIGHLY INTRIGUED. THE VOTE STANDS AS FOLLOWS:KidVermicious (6) – NAF, Almost Human, FCOD, MHaye, Hoopy Frood, diggitcamara NAF (3) – KidV, Pollux Oil, bufftabby Hoopy Frood (1) – Nanook MHaye (1) – bufftabby peekercpa (1) – Darth Sensitive THE DAY ENDS AT 12:00PM TODAY, OR IN JUST UNDER FOUR HOURS. CARRY ON. MHaye should not have bufftabby's vote on him. She unvoted him and then voted NAF.
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Post by Hawkmod on Oct 21, 2008 8:19:26 GMT -5
vote NAF
It isn't that I believe Kid. Rather, I don't find scum to me more of an immediate threat than PFKs at this point. Unless NAF is lying about Kid, which is doubtful, we need to lynch both of them. We know the scum won't win in the next day, but we can't be sure that NAF won't. It is far safer to lynch NAF then Kid, than the other way around. His claimed win conditions are inconsistent in difficulty. In order to win with scum he needs to determine all of the horseman, but to win with the town he just needs to stay alive? That doesn't seem right to me, and it is the main reason I won't claim at least while NAF is alive. I believe he might need to know town role names to in order to usurp a win. It is just a theory though, we really have no idea how NAF wins. I don't understand how lynching NAF would be a half right lynch. We didn't half lose to Rysto (a pfk) in Apocalypse. We need to deal with the most pressing concern, and that is NAF.
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Post by storyteller0910 on Oct 21, 2008 8:23:43 GMT -5
FREQUENT VOTE COUNTS SEEM ADVISABLE. THE VOTE CURRENTLY STANDS AS FOLLOWS:
KidVermicious (6) – NAF, Almost Human, FCOD, MHaye, Hoopy Frood, diggitcamara NAF (4) – KidV, Pollux Oil, bufftabby, hawkeyeop Hoopy Frood (1) – Nanook peekercpa (1) – Darth Sensitive
THE DAY ENDS AT 12:00PM TODAY, OR IN ABOUT TWO AND A HALF HOURS.
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Post by diggitcamara on Oct 21, 2008 8:28:03 GMT -5
vote NAFIt isn't that I believe Kid. Rather, I don't find scum to me more of an immediate threat than PFKs at this point. Unless NAF is lying about Kid, which is doubtful, we need to lynch both of them. We know the scum won't win in the next day, but we can't be sure that NAF won't. It is far safer to lynch NAF then Kid, than the other way around. His claimed win conditions are inconsistent in difficulty. In order to win with scum he needs to determine all of the horseman, but to win with the town he just needs to stay alive? That doesn't seem right to me, and it is the main reason I won't claim at least while NAF is alive. I believe he might need to know town role names to in order to usurp a win. It is just a theory though, we really have no idea how NAF wins. I don't understand how lynching NAF would be a half right lynch. We didn't half lose to Rysto (a pfk) in Apocalypse. We need to deal with the most pressing concern, and that is NAF. You know what? You're right. I've voiced my concern about releasing our names in the open, and if comic canon tells us anything, it is that both Apocalypse and Mr. Sinister have a vested interest in finding certain individuals. This could easily translate into a win condition (or some-such) for a PFK (aka "Find so-and-so. You can only do this at Night"). Since NAF had already been outed when he revealed his "true identity", he just might be vying for time to reach toNight. Therefore: Unvote KidV Vote NAF
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Post by Nanook on Oct 21, 2008 8:31:28 GMT -5
KidV, what matters is where my vote is at the end of the Day, otherwise I would have just come in here on Day 1 and voted/unvoted everyone right off the bat and then voted normally the rest of the time.
Right now I believe KidV more than I do NAF. NAF has been bugging me this whole game, and Kid's claim makes more sense to me than NAF's. That's not even counting the fact that people seem to be trusting the word of someone who admittedly lied to us. Right now however my vote wouldn't make a difference so I will leave it where it is. However, if anyone else moves theirs, I will do so as well if it leads to NAF being lynched.
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