Santo Rugger
Mome Rath
The Obviously Innocent Townie
The Rugger formerly known as Pygmy[on:BYAHH!][of:BYAHH?]
Posts: 3
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Day One
Jul 24, 2007 23:46:31 GMT -5
Post by Santo Rugger on Jul 24, 2007 23:46:31 GMT -5
Who cares if you got it from random.org, or from random.yourhead? The point of casting votes and FoSs on the first day is to generate a discussion. It's obviously working, Roosh, just look at all the talking you've done about it.
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RoOsh
FGM
Former BatMod
[on:Wanna see a magic trick?][of:See You, Space Cowboy....]
Posts: 284
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Day One
Jul 24, 2007 23:49:33 GMT -5
Post by RoOsh on Jul 24, 2007 23:49:33 GMT -5
exactly,
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Santo Rugger
Mome Rath
The Obviously Innocent Townie
The Rugger formerly known as Pygmy[on:BYAHH!][of:BYAHH?]
Posts: 3
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Day One
Jul 25, 2007 0:04:35 GMT -5
Post by Santo Rugger on Jul 25, 2007 0:04:35 GMT -5
<snip> The only other voting reasons I can think of are voting based on roles from previous games (very bad idea), or voting based on how obnoxious the color scheme is on a person's name (I could be talked into it). And on preview -- cripes...I get one phone call in the middle of my post and that "four posts old" is now "14 posts old"... FoS Hal Briston, for having two horrible voting reasons and using that newfangled crazy math.
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RoOsh
FGM
Former BatMod
[on:Wanna see a magic trick?][of:See You, Space Cowboy....]
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Day One
Jul 25, 2007 0:13:08 GMT -5
Post by RoOsh on Jul 25, 2007 0:13:08 GMT -5
interesting Sig. Pygmy.... I think you think I think you're Scum..... But Am i supposed to think that? Or do I really think what you think I think I thought you were?
And with that, Goodnight guys. I'll see y'all tomm.
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Day One
Jul 25, 2007 0:38:45 GMT -5
Post by dnooman on Jul 25, 2007 0:38:45 GMT -5
Cripes!
It seems I'm late to the party. I feel really dumb having trouble with a new message board.
I can still carry a torch and pitchfork though!
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Hockey Monkey!
Borogrove
This is supposed to be a happy occasion. Let's not bicker over who killed who.
Posts: 371
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Day One
Jul 25, 2007 0:56:20 GMT -5
Post by Hockey Monkey! on Jul 25, 2007 0:56:20 GMT -5
Ah, penguinmonkey fusion. Thanks pygmy! I will now exhalt you! Now Kat will be happy.
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Day One
Jul 25, 2007 0:57:39 GMT -5
Post by Greedy Smurf on Jul 25, 2007 0:57:39 GMT -5
I can still carry a torch and pitchfork though! Bit old fashioned isn't it I prefer a flashlight and shotgun for my psycho hunting. ;D
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Day One
Jul 25, 2007 2:53:57 GMT -5
Post by Malacandra on Jul 25, 2007 2:53:57 GMT -5
Wow, I check in and there are four pages of discussion already, plus some votes. In that case JSexton can eat a Vote for being in such of a muck-sweat to get the votes going. I'll defer to the wisdom of others on the advisability of using random.org to pick names, though I prefer to think it's extremely unhelpful. A big thanks to Blaster Master for the vote on me, too, but since a retaliatory Vote would be dismissed as an OMGUS I'll compromise with a FOS by way of venting. (Bolding added in edit window - tschoh, and the whole point of not doing "Quick Reply" was to be able to preview.)
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Day One
Jul 25, 2007 6:13:26 GMT -5
Post by Drain Bead on Jul 25, 2007 6:13:26 GMT -5
Upon re-reading the thread, I'm noticing that MadTheSwine is acting very much like he did in the current game over on the SDMB, and we all know how well that worked. Not quite enough for a FOS from me just yet (it's still early, after all), but it's odd.
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Day One
Jul 25, 2007 7:10:07 GMT -5
Post by Mad The Swine on Jul 25, 2007 7:10:07 GMT -5
Upon re-reading the thread, I'm noticing that MadTheSwine is acting very much like he did in the current game over on the SDMB, and we all know how well that worked. Not quite enough for a FOS from me just yet (it's still early, after all), but it's odd. What the...... From two posts you conclude I am acting the same as in m5? Why you would FOS me for acting the way I did in that game is "odd" since I was town anyway. (plus we don't know how well it worked... yet )
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Day One
Jul 25, 2007 7:18:47 GMT -5
Post by Mad The Swine on Jul 25, 2007 7:18:47 GMT -5
Is there some history between Kat and MadTheSwine that would spur such a vote? I haven't been following the games as closely as I should have. Yes there is...she is a big meanie and always picks on me. Same as a random vote it was just meant to create some discussion. Plus...come to think of it Krazy Kat and I have never been on the same team have we? Hmmmm....
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Day One
Jul 25, 2007 7:32:13 GMT -5
Post by Drain Bead on Jul 25, 2007 7:32:13 GMT -5
Upon re-reading the thread, I'm noticing that MadTheSwine is acting very much like he did in the current game over on the SDMB, and we all know how well that worked. Not quite enough for a FOS from me just yet (it's still early, after all), but it's odd. What the...... From two posts you conclude I am acting the same as in m5? Why you would FOS me for acting the way I did in that game is "odd" since I was town anyway. (plus we don't know how well it worked... yet ) Relax, I said it was early. I was more concerned about the one-word drive-by vote than anything else, because it just seemed so unnecessary--why couldn't you wait until morning to post and actually have time to flesh it out a bit? It's not like we're up against a deadline at this point in the game. I remember you doing similar things in the last game (showing up, making a two-line post with a vote and no analysis, then disappearing), and it didn't turn out well for you as town, so it didn't make much sense for you to be acting in somewhat the same way in this game. I didn't FOS you yet, no orange text or anything, it was just something I noticed that was a bit odd. In the last game, your subterfuge pretty much screwed the town out of a whole Day of analysis, and I'm leery of anyone who doesn't act in the best interest of the Town. This early, it's important for us to put all our cards on the table. Even if it's a random.org vote, or a vote because you don't like someone's user name, or meta-gaming, it's necessary for us to have something to go on with everyone's record.
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Day One
Jul 25, 2007 7:44:02 GMT -5
Post by storyteller0910 on Jul 25, 2007 7:44:02 GMT -5
Just arrived back online. This isn't too bad, catching-up-wise; I was expecting twelve pages and twenty votes by now. I'll read through what's been said so far and provide something more substantial presently.
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Day One
Jul 25, 2007 8:02:27 GMT -5
Post by Mad The Swine on Jul 25, 2007 8:02:27 GMT -5
What the...... From two posts you conclude I am acting the same as in m5? Why you would FOS me for acting the way I did in that game is "odd" since I was town anyway. (plus we don't know how well it worked... yet ) Relax, I said it was early. I was more concerned about the one-word drive-by vote than anything else, because it just seemed so unnecessary--why couldn't you wait until morning to post and actually have time to flesh it out a bit? It's not like we're up against a deadline at this point in the game. I remember you doing similar things in the last game (showing up, making a two-line post with a vote and no analysis, then disappearing), and it didn't turn out well for you as town, so it didn't make much sense for you to be acting in somewhat the same way in this game. I didn't FOS you yet, no orange text or anything, it was just something I noticed that was a bit odd. In the last game, your subterfuge pretty much screwed the town out of a whole Day of analysis, and I'm leery of anyone who doesn't act in the best interest of the Town. This early, it's important for us to put all our cards on the table. Even if it's a random.org vote, or a vote because you don't like someone's user name, or meta-gaming, it's necessary for us to have something to go on with everyone's record. I was acting in the best interest of the town,wether it was for the best interest of the town remains to be seen. Thats all I have to say about that. As far as it being a two word drive-by,I explained the vote in my very next post that wasn't more than a few minutes later...or did you just conviently skip over that post? It was more meant in fun due to Kat's voting record against me. Maybe I should have voted for Winston Smith instead.
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Day One
Jul 25, 2007 8:17:53 GMT -5
Post by cowgirl on Jul 25, 2007 8:17:53 GMT -5
In defense of Mad The Swine ... he appeared awfully scummy on the good ship Hispanolia, but IIRC he turned out to be an extremely helpful good guy. Kind of like the opposite of storyteller in ... I forget which one ...
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Day One
Jul 25, 2007 8:32:19 GMT -5
Post by cowgirl on Jul 25, 2007 8:32:19 GMT -5
IMO, it's a worth while because, as I said in M4, anything a single one of us can figure out, surely a collective mind of the scum and/or geniuses can also figure out. However, by NOT talking about it, it leaves everyone who ISN'T scum or a genius semi-guessing about what's going on. Further, considering the collaboration, I think the geniuses will be able to discuss what their input is and appropriately disperse the information in a manor that leaves nothing to trace back.I very much agree with Blaster here. Speaking (in general terms only) about what power roles might do has been EXTREMELY helpful to me in the past, to get my head around what's going on. Sure it's an easy way for scum to try to manipulate the rest of us, but they're going to find ways to do that anyway, and if we speak openly about it we have a lot more opportunities to figure it out. It is risky, of course, but anything you do in this game (post too much, post too little, post too much analysis, post too little analysis, etc) is risky. In my opinion the benefits of examining all the options for the power roles far outweighs the risk. But we need to remember that someone pressing a different strategy does not necessarily mean they are scum.
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Day One
Jul 25, 2007 9:15:46 GMT -5
Post by Malacandra on Jul 25, 2007 9:15:46 GMT -5
In defense of Mad The Swine ... he appeared awfully scummy on the good ship Hispanolia, but IIRC he turned out to be an extremely helpful good guy. Kind of like the opposite of storyteller in ... I forget which one ... All that demonstrates, though (you mean M2 for storyteller) is that both of them are very good players - though I'm still bemused by Mad's performance in M5 - and will bear watching, although it'd be a colossal stretch to get from that to any accusations of scumminess.
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Day One
Jul 25, 2007 9:25:58 GMT -5
Post by capybara on Jul 25, 2007 9:25:58 GMT -5
Ok, looking at the roles, this time there are no scum-oriented characters with any special abilities-- no spies or anything like that. Also no independent spies allied with scum. This is good-- there won't be any sudden gallows narcing on town roles like we saw with Zuma in M4. There are also no doctor or spy roles among the geniuses-- they appear to be completely separate roles (which means that their only advantage is that howevermany minds are better than one). Which makes it tricky if someone claims doctor-- there will be no one to verify, right? So I don't see a lot of extra information coming to us without extreme circumstances surrounding it. Actually, if the town lunatic gets killed that could be interesting.
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Day One
Jul 25, 2007 9:38:23 GMT -5
Post by capybara on Jul 25, 2007 9:38:23 GMT -5
Ah, I misunderstood the crazy townie role. Disregard that part. I see that he/she takes someone out of his/her choice, not the person that killed him/her.
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Day One
Jul 25, 2007 9:48:09 GMT -5
Post by storyteller0910 on Jul 25, 2007 9:48:09 GMT -5
IMO, it's a worth while because, as I said in M4, anything a single one of us can figure out, surely a collective mind of the scum and/or geniuses can also figure out. However, by NOT talking about it, it leaves everyone who ISN'T scum or a genius semi-guessing about what's going on. Further, considering the collaboration, I think the geniuses will be able to discuss what their input is and appropriately disperse the information in a manor that leaves nothing to trace back.I very much agree with Blaster here. Speaking (in general terms only) about what power roles might do has been EXTREMELY helpful to me in the past, to get my head around what's going on. Sure it's an easy way for scum to try to manipulate the rest of us, but they're going to find ways to do that anyway, and if we speak openly about it we have a lot more opportunities to figure it out. It is risky, of course, but anything you do in this game (post too much, post too little, post too much analysis, post too little analysis, etc) is risky. In my opinion the benefits of examining all the options for the power roles far outweighs the risk. Strongly disagree. I think it's worth putting my opinion on this subject out there one more time, but I would like to avoid turning it into a Day-dominating debate. I don't think discussing what power roles will do is beneficial in the long run, but I definitely believe that lengthy discussing whether discussing what power roles will do is even less beneficial. So, my arguments against discussing the power roles in any but the most general terms, for the record and for posterity: 1 - This is a game of information. The scum have a lot of it. The town increases its chances of winning by leveraging what little information the scum do not have: the identity of the power roles and their likely behaviors. I know I've said this before, but I can't repeat it often enough - all the town discussion of the power roles, and especially the move to try to "guide" the power roles, was a tremendous advantage to the scum. The more we discuss the pro-town power roles, the more information we give the scum; we want them as information-free as we can possibly make them. 2 - Pursuant to #1, when the subject of a discussion is something about which you have no knowledge, it is impossible for you to "slip." The only way to "slip" is when you have knowledge of the subject under consideration that others don't have; then you are challenged to participate in the conversation without accidentally revealing too much. So, two choices: (1) We talk about power roles: The scum have no more information on the power roles identities or behavior than the normies. Thus, in the context of such a discussion, scum are indistinguishable from normies. The pro-town power roles, on the other hand, do have information on this subject. If we talk about power roles, there is no chance for scum to slip and every chance for power roles to slip. I submit that this is bad. (2) We talk about how to find scum: The scum have secret knowledge on this subject; they may slip and reveal themselves. The power roles (at least, for now) have no secret knowledge in this area, so they can discuss it freely without fear of a slip that will reveal them to the scum. Hopefully someone will find this persuasive. I don't want this to be anything like the Mtgman fiasco in M5, though, so after this post I'll keep my trap mostly shut on the subject.
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Day One
Jul 25, 2007 10:20:40 GMT -5
Post by Greedy Smurf on Jul 25, 2007 10:20:40 GMT -5
So, two choices: (1) We talk about power roles: The scum have no more information on the power roles identities or behavior than the normies. Thus, in the context of such a discussion, scum are indistinguishable from normies. The pro-town power roles, on the other hand, do have information on this subject. If we talk about power roles, there is no chance for scum to slip and every chance for power roles to slip. I submit that this is bad. (2) We talk about how to find scum: The scum have secret knowledge on this subject; they may slip and reveal themselves. The power roles (at least, for now) have no secret knowledge in this area, so they can discuss it freely without fear of a slip that will reveal them to the scum. Excellent summary there storyteller. Put that way what we should be doing becomes clear, well clearer than it was for me anyway Wholeheartedly agree we should stick to option 2.
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Day One
Jul 25, 2007 10:35:10 GMT -5
Post by JSexton on Jul 25, 2007 10:35:10 GMT -5
Morning, folks. I don't really want to re-hash the random vote thing, as it's been done to death. But since I'm getting mildly hammered over it, I may as well at least say WHY I do it.
There's two reasons, really. One has been mentioned: it generates discussion. Useful discussion? Sometimes. (It's given me notes on a couple people so far.) The other reason is it gives a way to shield cops. A cop can use a"random" vote to indicate a guilty result (without outing themselves), and if other townies are random voting, then it's much less obvious. This game is a day-start, so that doesn't apply, but it's kind of a habit.
At any rate, it's something I generally do. It's a fairly common practice elsewhere, and I wasn't sure why it's so frowned on here. I think I figured out why, though: Dopers take mafia more personally. It's true. Every vote has some personal significance attached to it, and I've never seen so many people get personally offended by a vote. It may be because the Dope is a more social board, and the game-playing aspect is somewhat diminished.
This isn't intended to be a slight, by the way, just an observation of why playstyles may clash.
And in other news, storyteller has it right.
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Santo Rugger
Mome Rath
The Obviously Innocent Townie
The Rugger formerly known as Pygmy[on:BYAHH!][of:BYAHH?]
Posts: 3
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Day One
Jul 25, 2007 10:37:50 GMT -5
Post by Santo Rugger on Jul 25, 2007 10:37:50 GMT -5
Sounds good, let's talk about how to find scum. Story, you go first.
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Day One
Jul 25, 2007 10:43:58 GMT -5
Post by JSexton on Jul 25, 2007 10:43:58 GMT -5
Here's a little-known technique:
Everyone, please raise your hands. Everyone? Good.
Now, if you win with the town, please put your hands down.
If your hand is still in the air, please post and let us know.
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Day One
Jul 25, 2007 10:46:49 GMT -5
Post by Malacandra on Jul 25, 2007 10:46:49 GMT -5
Bah, anyone who fell for that would need to be mad!
Hey, wait a minute...
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Day One
Jul 25, 2007 10:47:41 GMT -5
Post by Hal Briston on Jul 25, 2007 10:47:41 GMT -5
You've got me wrong Hal. I'm not trying to discuss what the geniuses should and should not do. What I AM trying to do is get discussion about how the daytime collaboration affects the game. Ah, ok...my misunderstanding. I've no problem with what you propose, then. Which ties in to something that's been twinging at me -- aren't the scum at much more of a disadvantage this time around? While I certainly have no problem with anything that makes things more difficult for them, that seems to be the case here. The two advantages scum generally have are 1) knowing each other, and 2) private discussions. While point #1 is often balanced out by Masons (or the equivalent), point #2 has always been the purview of scum and scum alone. Not so this time around. So it seems to me that this could be looked at as a game of Geniuses vs. Psychos, with the rest of us rooting for Team Smartypants. One thing that causes great concern for me -- since the scum don't have their usual advantage (bring the only ones with private discussions) this time around, I'm afraid that something else would have to be done to tilt the advantage away from town and back toward the middle. Barring the presence of a super-secret pro-scum role, there is only one other thing I can think of that could provide this -- additional scum. So to sum up, I think we'll have to consider that we're up against a rather large Psycho team.
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Day One
Jul 25, 2007 10:54:00 GMT -5
Post by storyteller0910 on Jul 25, 2007 10:54:00 GMT -5
Sounds good, let's talk about how to find scum. Story, you go first. Well, based on past experience, I'd say the best strategy is to vote for Kat. That always seems to work. More seriously, there is no one action that will work as a scum tell in every case; as you may remember from our previous work together, scum will act differently from one another. Almost any action usually could have an innocent explanation or a nefarious explanation. I try, then, to concentrate not on actions. While I recognize that vote counts, voting patterns, spreadsheets, and whatnot seem to be helpful to others, to me they are secondary. I'm interested in studying the chain of logic behind any given action. I'm mostly looking for people who seem to be trying to create artificial results using ostensibly sound reasoning that's flawed under scrutiny. Your turn.
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Santo Rugger
Mome Rath
The Obviously Innocent Townie
The Rugger formerly known as Pygmy[on:BYAHH!][of:BYAHH?]
Posts: 3
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Karma:
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Day One
Jul 25, 2007 11:48:45 GMT -5
Post by Santo Rugger on Jul 25, 2007 11:48:45 GMT -5
<snip>I'm interested in studying the chain of logic behind any given action. I'm mostly looking for people who seem to be trying to create artificial results using ostensibly sound reasoning that's flawed under scrutiny. Your turn. While I mostly agree with this, it does present a problem in that this technique may cause us to go after geniuses and scum simultaneously. I'm strongly opposed to trying to out the geniuses at this point in the game. We lose if they're the only ones alive when the game is over, so my position on this will most likely change near the endgame. As of now, however, I think they're a valuable asset to the town. We really don't have anything to go by yet, though, so I do understand that exposing flawed reasoning is our best weapon. We just have to be careful. It's not like the two groups are going to be forming cliques at this point in the game, so we aren't going to be able to try and artificially divide the town into three "sects", as was the town's mistake in M2. Even though the "slip" I had in M2 wasn't really a slip, I think that, sooner or later, if we get them talking enough, the scum are going to make a mistake. (Hint, hint, to those of you not posting any actual content. I'm not saying you need to post a lot, or not have any fluff posts, but story and I went, let's hear what you have to say.)
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Day One
Jul 25, 2007 12:41:29 GMT -5
Post by storyteller0910 on Jul 25, 2007 12:41:29 GMT -5
Holy crap, Pygmy. I think we have the super-secret joint role: Threadkiller.
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Day One
Jul 25, 2007 13:08:55 GMT -5
Post by JSexton on Jul 25, 2007 13:08:55 GMT -5
I've got something to add, but I'm waiting for some mod clarification first.
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