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Day One
Jul 25, 2007 13:52:37 GMT -5
Post by Idle Thoughts on Jul 25, 2007 13:52:37 GMT -5
Some questions I've gotten from anon PMers, just in case anyone else was wondering:
""Geniuses win if all the Psychos are dead AND they are the remaining townies." Am I reading this right? Geniuses are essentially masons that can talk during the day...but in order for them to win, all other townies must be dead?" To clarify: If townies exist at the end (even if all three Geniuses are alive), it's a town win. Geniuses, since they're town...win as town.
If they are the only ones left without any town or Psychos left, they win as their own group.
"Does the Crazy Normie know that (s)he is the Crazy Normie before (s)he is killed?"
Yes.
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Santo Rugger
Mome Rath
The Obviously Innocent Townie
The Rugger formerly known as Pygmy[on:BYAHH!][of:BYAHH?]
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Day One
Jul 25, 2007 13:56:07 GMT -5
Post by Santo Rugger on Jul 25, 2007 13:56:07 GMT -5
By anon PMers, you mean JSexton?
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Day One
Jul 25, 2007 13:57:50 GMT -5
Post by Hal Briston on Jul 25, 2007 13:57:50 GMT -5
To clarify: If townies exist at the end (even if all three Geniuses are alive), it's a town win. Geniuses, since they're town...win as town. If they are the only ones left without any town or Psychos left, they win as their own group. Yeah, but we don't have to worry about that, right? I mean, what kind of bastards would the Geniuses have be to start going after fellow townies just to get a Genius-only win?
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Day One
Jul 25, 2007 14:00:51 GMT -5
Post by JSexton on Jul 25, 2007 14:00:51 GMT -5
To clarify: If townies exist at the end (even if all three Geniuses are alive), it's a town win. Geniuses, since they're town...win as town. If they are the only ones left without any town or Psychos left, they win as their own group. Yeah, but we don't have to worry about that, right? I mean, what kind of bastards would the Geniuses have be to start going after fellow townies just to get a Genius-only win? (yes, the first question was mine) See, the way I read the Genius role in the rules is that the Geniuses could only win if all the townies were dead...which basically made them a mafia group without a kill, and decidedly anti-town. I didn't think that was really the intention, but it's a plausible interpretation, and I wanted to be sure.
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Day One
Jul 25, 2007 15:20:59 GMT -5
Post by Hal Briston on Jul 25, 2007 15:20:59 GMT -5
See, the way I read the Genius role in the rules is that the Geniuses could only win if all the townies were dead...which basically made them a mafia group without a kill, and decidedly anti-town. I didn't think that was really the intention, but it's a plausible interpretation, and I wanted to be sure. Well, I wouldn't go so far as to call them "anti-town", at least not for a good long while. In my above post, I was making a tongue-in-cheek reference to my actions in M3 -- I was one of the Masons, and we had a Mason-only victory condition. I decided early on to try and make a play for that win. That play failed, and very nearly cost the town the game. So basically, the "Geniuses being anti-town" might come into play...but not for a good long while. M3 was a textbook example of why they should go for the town win unless the Genius win happens to fall into their lap. Actively trying to engineer a Genius-only win? Not a very genius-level move.
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Day One
Jul 25, 2007 15:49:34 GMT -5
Post by Mad The Swine on Jul 25, 2007 15:49:34 GMT -5
Since I have to be away for a few days I will Unvote Kat. I will HOFDain Bread or Drain Bead or whatever it is, for seemingly wanting to put me in a bad light for a single post. My vote was no worse than any other one I have seen so far.He may be thinking it will be an easy kill for the scum due to my unconventional approach to M5.
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Day One
Jul 25, 2007 15:50:09 GMT -5
Post by Mad The Swine on Jul 25, 2007 15:50:09 GMT -5
That should be HOS instead of HOF
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Day One
Jul 25, 2007 16:08:40 GMT -5
Post by JSexton on Jul 25, 2007 16:08:40 GMT -5
See, the way I read the Genius role in the rules is that the Geniuses could only win if all the townies were dead...which basically made them a mafia group without a kill, and decidedly anti-town. I didn't think that was really the intention, but it's a plausible interpretation, and I wanted to be sure. Well, I wouldn't go so far as to call them "anti-town", at least not for a good long while. Not after the mod-clarification, no. I don't see any reason why they'd go for a Genius-only win. There's no real reason to do so, as a win is a win. Vindictiveness is the only reason I can think of, and there's some serious downside if they're caught, as the town may well decide to vote them out before the last scum, risking victory for all. Ugh. Not a fan of that sort of thing, either from a design or gameplay standpoint. But we have to play with the cards we're dealt, ja?
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Day One
Jul 25, 2007 16:09:06 GMT -5
Post by JSexton on Jul 25, 2007 16:09:06 GMT -5
That should be HOS instead of HOF er, is that Hoof of Suspicion?
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Santo Rugger
Mome Rath
The Obviously Innocent Townie
The Rugger formerly known as Pygmy[on:BYAHH!][of:BYAHH?]
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Day One
Jul 25, 2007 16:14:41 GMT -5
Post by Santo Rugger on Jul 25, 2007 16:14:41 GMT -5
Yes, but he really wants a finger, hence the typo: "Hoof of Finger".
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Day One
Jul 25, 2007 16:52:17 GMT -5
Post by Malacandra on Jul 25, 2007 16:52:17 GMT -5
Well, I wouldn't go so far as to call them "anti-town", at least not for a good long while. In my above post, I was making a tongue-in-cheek reference to my actions in M3 -- I was one of the Masons, and we had a Mason-only victory condition. I decided early on to try and make a play for that win. That play failed, and very nearly cost the town the game. So basically, the "Geniuses being anti-town" might come into play...but not for a good long while. M3 was a textbook example of why they should go for the town win unless the Genius win happens to fall into their lap. Actively trying to engineer a Genius-only win? Not a very genius-level move. Hmm... and now I'm torn between saying something that could be a Genius strategy hint, or keeping my wug shut. Well, let's assume the Genii actually do what it says on the tin, and are smarter than me. In that case, the possibility of a Genius win could be more realistic than in M3 owing to the point mentioned before - their ability to talk in secret. So I suppose they'd be trying to play both ends against the middle, if they can. If things look like going badly I suppose they can always revert to a Town win. OTOH I don't see where this is going to count for a good while, since we haven't a clue who is a Genius just yet.
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Day One
Jul 25, 2007 17:07:16 GMT -5
Post by capybara on Jul 25, 2007 17:07:16 GMT -5
I don't know. I feel like the chances that none of the geniuses get night killed or lynched by the end of the game is pretty small, even with them talking among themselves. It makes it a bit tricky knowing what to do with one when any of them claim, though-- keep them alive since they're technically town and the numbers count for us, or quickly kill them off to erase a long-shot genius win possibility? That might depend on how the game looks right then, but I think Jsexton and Hal have the right idea-- the geniuses would have to be very darn sure of their abilities if they wanted to start purposefully getting town killed off. I don't see it-- they would not only have to be bastards who love gloating inordinately, but also very lucky bastards. Can we assume that they'll play pro-town to keep it safe unless a nerd-win possibility develops late? Maybe it's not safe to assume anything. . . the last game made me very untrusting and I fear I had a faulty scumdar installed at the factory.
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Blaster Master
Mome Rath
The player formerly know as BLAM!
Now 34.788% less repellant to Sharks! :( [on:I WANT TO DIE!][of:I WANT TO LIVE!]
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Day One
Jul 25, 2007 17:51:15 GMT -5
Post by Blaster Master on Jul 25, 2007 17:51:15 GMT -5
See, the way I read the Genius role in the rules is that the Geniuses could only win if all the townies were dead...which basically made them a mafia group without a kill, and decidedly anti-town. I didn't think that was really the intention, but it's a plausible interpretation, and I wanted to be sure. Well, I wouldn't go so far as to call them "anti-town", at least not for a good long while. In my above post, I was making a tongue-in-cheek reference to my actions in M3 -- I was one of the Masons, and we had a Mason-only victory condition. I decided early on to try and make a play for that win. That play failed, and very nearly cost the town the game. So basically, the "Geniuses being anti-town" might come into play...but not for a good long while. M3 was a textbook example of why they should go for the town win unless the Genius win happens to fall into their lap. Actively trying to engineer a Genius-only win? Not a very genius-level move. I think the obvious answer is, the geniuses should play as pro-town as possible because they can win with the town OR stand alone, and for them, furthering one cause inherently furthers the other. The concern of the genius only win condition should not be a concern of the geniuses but MAY be a concern of the town in some very inplausable circumstances. That said, until we've caught at least two or three of the pyschos, many townies are dead, and there's at most one genius death, the circumstances for a genius only win condition are extremely remote and not worth worrying about. The important point with regard to the geniuses is to ensure that that it is obstenibly clear, as Hal points out, that deliberately playing for a genius only win, especially at this early stage, is a recipe for disaster.
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Death By Irony
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Day One
Jul 25, 2007 17:56:08 GMT -5
Post by Death By Irony on Jul 25, 2007 17:56:08 GMT -5
Personally, I like to expect the worst and hope for the best, so I'm not going to rely on the Geniuses (or any of the other pro-town roles, for that matter) to win the game for the town. Sure, they'll be helpful, but the pro-town factions pretty much only have the Day lynches to get rid of Psychos.
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Blaster Master
Mome Rath
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Day One
Jul 25, 2007 18:08:44 GMT -5
Post by Blaster Master on Jul 25, 2007 18:08:44 GMT -5
Now, in the interest of catching scum, I want to discuss the repercussions of the scum being able to strategize during the day. I'm inclined to think that many of the more consistent tells, like the ones that storyteller pointed out, will be diminished because of the daytime collaboration. That is, I expect scum will have a few slips or contradictions that could be telling; however, with the collaboration, any complex strategy that might potentially include contradictions could easily be run by other scum as a proof read. Further, any slips could be caught and damage control pursued with a much faster response than we've seen before.
For instance, one common strategy is for scum to fabricate an internal fight. With the addition of daytime collaboration, they can coordinate what they'll fight about and how they'll respond to eachother. They'll also be able to adjust the flamboyance of the argument in accordance to the type of reaction they're going for versus the one they're getting.
So, here's some of my thoughts on the kinds of tells that may show up because of this change in strategy. I think we're going to see a higher level of collaboration, but in a much more subtle way. For instance, it is a common strategy for scum to pile on a fellow scum if he's going to get lynched; with the ability to collaborate, the scum can gauge in real time the likeliness of a lynch going through. This means, they may be able to jump on bandwagons much sooner than they could before, or even engineer a bandwagon against their own if they know it's likely to be coming. Similarly, they could more effectively engineer a counter-bandwagon as they see the potential for a bandwagon against one of their own. IOW, I'm expecting a tell could now be when a player or a move, especially in what could be a fast paced voting sequence, looks overly groomed or thought out.
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Gir!
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What? Kat is sweet and innocent!
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Day One
Jul 25, 2007 18:22:21 GMT -5
Post by Gir! on Jul 25, 2007 18:22:21 GMT -5
Okay, I'm trying that multi-quote thing. Wish me luck. Upon re-reading the thread, I'm noticing that MadTheSwine is acting very much like he did in the current game over on the SDMB, and we all know how well that worked. Not quite enough for a FOS from me just yet (it's still early, after all), but it's odd. I have to agree with Mad on this comment. I'm not FOSing at this point or anything, but I'll do the "It's odd." thing. Plus...come to think of it Krazy Kat and I have never been on the same team have we? Hmmmm.... No, we haven't Mad Pig. Which is something to add to my List o' Suspicions on you: Destiny has determined that we aren't supposed to be teammates. ;D Hmmm...guess I have to add the rest manually... Maybe I should have voted for Winston Smith instead. Naw. Wait till he roleclaims. (2) We talk about how to find scum: The scum have secret knowledge on this subject; they may slip and reveal themselves. The power roles (at least, for now) have no secret knowledge in this area, so they can discuss it freely without fear of a slip that will reveal them to the scum. I wonder if, perhaps, since they can now have strategy discussion on their own board during the day, we may see less participation by scum for this reason. Since those veiled "possible scum hints and warnings" that people have brought up in previous games can now be posting plain and simple on the scum board. Of course, right now I can't remember if any of those possible hints were actually scum. But that's something else that will be different, too. We won't see people saying "Is that a hint to other scum to shut up about something." I don't know if that's good or bad. are also no doctor or spy roles among the geniuses-- they appear to be completely separate roles (which means that their only advantage is that howevermany minds are better than one). Which makes it tricky if someone claims doctor-- there will be no one to verify, right? Not as tricky as you think. WWI and WWII on the SDMB didn't have anyone who could verify the doctor role (well, except the seer, and the dead detective) and it worked out just fine in WWI for Town. I was actually a bit surprised to see the doctor as a combined doctor/mason role in M3.#nosignature#
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RoOsh
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Day One
Jul 25, 2007 18:57:35 GMT -5
Post by RoOsh on Jul 25, 2007 18:57:35 GMT -5
It makes it a bit tricky knowing what to do with one when any of them claim, though-- keep them alive since they're technically town and the numbers count for us, or quickly kill them off to erase a long-shot genius win possibility? That might depend on how the game looks right then, but I think Jsexton and Hal have the right idea-- the geniuses would have to be very darn sure of their abilities if they wanted to start purposefully getting town killed off. (Bolding mine) The idea of killing of Geniuses just to "ensure" a town victory just sounds like a TERRIBLE Terrible awful idea to me. We shouldn't kill off our fellow townspeople, because even if they have ulterior motives they are still on our side. Hell, even the crazy townie is going to be my freind. The enemy of my enemy is my friend in this game.
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Day One
Jul 25, 2007 19:13:58 GMT -5
Post by capybara on Jul 25, 2007 19:13:58 GMT -5
It makes it a bit tricky knowing what to do with one when any of them claim, though-- keep them alive since they're technically town and the numbers count for us, or quickly kill them off to erase a long-shot genius win possibility? That might depend on how the game looks right then, but I think Jsexton and Hal have the right idea-- the geniuses would have to be very darn sure of their abilities if they wanted to start purposefully getting town killed off. (Bolding mine) The idea of killing of Geniuses just to "ensure" a town victory just sounds like a TERRIBLE Terrible awful idea to me. We shouldn't kill off our fellow townspeople, because even if they have ulterior motives they are still on our side. Hell, even the crazy townie is going to be my freind. The enemy of my enemy is my friend in this game. We might then be very suspicious of anyone along the road who tries to whip the town up into genius-hunting mode, I think. I think that the concept/ fear of a possible genius endgame might be something that can be exploited by scum to kill off several townies. Again, I think the geniuses would be foolhardy to shoot for a genius win and they'd be safer throwing their kit in with the rest of us morans, so we can't see the geniuses as just crypto-scum. .. yet. Also, I think Blaster has a good train of thought here. Is it possible that when things get very very touchy that a hotheaded scum (or genius?) posting frequently and heatedly in the thick of battle will suddenly slow down and get terribly clever or suddenly change tack. Might be something to look out for.
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Death By Irony
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Day One
Jul 25, 2007 19:23:41 GMT -5
Post by Death By Irony on Jul 25, 2007 19:23:41 GMT -5
Argh, as if I'm not already overanalyzing everything.
My head is going to hurt so much after this game.
Now, more than ever, I know I picked the right sig file...
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Day One
Jul 25, 2007 19:23:44 GMT -5
Post by Drain Bead on Jul 25, 2007 19:23:44 GMT -5
It makes it a bit tricky knowing what to do with one when any of them claim, though-- keep them alive since they're technically town and the numbers count for us, or quickly kill them off to erase a long-shot genius win possibility? That might depend on how the game looks right then, but I think Jsexton and Hal have the right idea-- the geniuses would have to be very darn sure of their abilities if they wanted to start purposefully getting town killed off. (Bolding mine) The idea of killing of Geniuses just to "ensure" a town victory just sounds like a TERRIBLE Terrible awful idea to me. We shouldn't kill off our fellow townspeople, because even if they have ulterior motives they are still on our side. Hell, even the crazy townie is going to be my freind. The enemy of my enemy is my friend in this game. I couldn't agree more with Roosh here. A confirmed townie is a confirmed townie, and we should worry about killing them only when it gets to crunch time and no geniuses have died. It seems crazy to even suggest that we be responsible for killing a Genius. Leave that for the scum to try to do, until it becomes absolutely necessary.
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Day One
Jul 25, 2007 19:53:29 GMT -5
Post by nesta on Jul 25, 2007 19:53:29 GMT -5
Another thing that we'll need to be on the lookout for is how our ability to talk about the game at night will change the effectiveness of the scum night-kill. In past games the scum have had to guess what the real reaction of the town would be to any given lynching, and who the town would go after next, and base their night-kill on this guess. Now they will be able to wait and see who we blame for a town-lynch, or who we credit with a scum-lynch, and make much better use of their kill. This seems to me a large advantage for the scum, but it could lead to other interesting scum-tells.
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Hockey Monkey!
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This is supposed to be a happy occasion. Let's not bicker over who killed who.
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Day One
Jul 25, 2007 20:07:35 GMT -5
Post by Hockey Monkey! on Jul 25, 2007 20:07:35 GMT -5
(Bolding mine) The idea of killing of Geniuses just to "ensure" a town victory just sounds like a TERRIBLE Terrible awful idea to me. We shouldn't kill off our fellow townspeople, because even if they have ulterior motives they are still on our side. Hell, even the crazy townie is going to be my freind. The enemy of my enemy is my friend in this game. I couldn't agree more with Roosh here. A confirmed townie is a confirmed townie, and we should worry about killing them only when it gets to crunch time and no geniuses have died. It seems crazy to even suggest that we be responsible for killing a Genius. Leave that for the scum to try to do, until it becomes absolutely necessary. When would it be necessary for townies to kill a genius? As long as all the psychos have been killed it's a town win (which includes the geniuses). The town doesn't have to eliminate the psychos AND the geniuses. For a genius only win they do have to eliminate everyone else, which is highly improbable, which is why they would be idiots to go for a win on their own (unless the improbable becomes a near reality). That would be way into the endgame at any rate.
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Gir!
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Day One
Jul 25, 2007 20:23:14 GMT -5
Post by Gir! on Jul 25, 2007 20:23:14 GMT -5
Not to mention that, if the Geniuses go after Vanilla Townies on purpose, they're going to be fingered as possible scum.
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Death By Irony
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Day One
Jul 25, 2007 20:28:14 GMT -5
Post by Death By Irony on Jul 25, 2007 20:28:14 GMT -5
There we go! All we have to do is lynch anti-town behavior. ;D
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Day One
Jul 26, 2007 0:15:45 GMT -5
Post by dnoomanhotmailcom on Jul 26, 2007 0:15:45 GMT -5
For some reason Screwey's posts seem to me, to be way too "trust me", and less "I'm innocent".
My information is limited, but I need to leave a record that can be reviewed after my death.
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RoOsh
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Day One
Jul 26, 2007 0:54:37 GMT -5
Post by RoOsh on Jul 26, 2007 0:54:37 GMT -5
And by Screwy, do you mean BlasterMaster as he is "screwy" in terms of post and his name is white, and so if you have firefox you can't see it?
Or is there someone else you're referring to?
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Day One
Jul 26, 2007 1:15:59 GMT -5
Post by Idle Thoughts on Jul 26, 2007 1:15:59 GMT -5
Hmm, account not working, dnooman?
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RoOsh
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Day One
Jul 26, 2007 1:42:10 GMT -5
Post by RoOsh on Jul 26, 2007 1:42:10 GMT -5
Or we have an imposter w/in our midst!
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Day One
Jul 26, 2007 7:57:31 GMT -5
Post by Drain Bead on Jul 26, 2007 7:57:31 GMT -5
Hrm. Mod, can we set it up so that guests can't post in this forum? I don't know if that was dnooman or not, but anyone saying that they "need to leave a record" is either stupid, suicidal, or scummy.
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Day One
Jul 26, 2007 8:02:17 GMT -5
Post by storyteller0910 on Jul 26, 2007 8:02:17 GMT -5
Since I have to be away for a few days I will Unvote Kat. I will HOF Dain Bread or Drain Bead or whatever it is, for seemingly wanting to put me in a bad light for a single post. My vote was no worse than any other one I have seen so far.He may be thinking it will be an easy kill for the scum due to my unconventional approach to M5. You know, I hit "reply" to this intending to critique this argument, and then realized as I tried to write the post that the problem is it's actually a pretty good point. I mean - no offense, here, Mad - our porcine pal has developed a bit of a reputation for rather erratic behavior. Even though he's only been scum once, he seems to be one of those players who everyone defaults to suspecting. So say you're scum, and playing with a new group for the first time. Have to say something, right? Well, why not start out by being the first to express misgivings about someone who you can reasonably predict will eventually give everyonemisgivings? It's sort of like complaining about Autolycus' lack of participation in previous games - it's a safe way to contribute, even substantively, without sticking your neck out. Particularly when you do it so quietly - not with a vote, not even with an FoS - just with... you know, a smudge. "Hey, that Mad sure is acting weird, just like that time, remember, when it was bad for the town? Let's all keep an eye on him." Because ultimately, Mad's silly vote for Kat, which he did explain moments later, was no less substantial than any number of other votes and FoSes so far. Why did drainbead single him out for mention? But then I thought - well, if one is a townie, at this stage of the game one tends to be overeager, grasping at any excuse to suspect someone because the game has started and I want to play it by golly. So that could be the explanation. Which means, basically, that I have nothing. Please return to your regularly scheduled programming.
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