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Post by Nanook on Jan 15, 2009 23:05:21 GMT -5
No they won't. And even if they do it doesn't matter. Again, do the math.
Change it to Sinjin lynch Today. Two townies control the NK, so either Blockey or Cookies will be killed overNight. Heck, let's assume the scumdoc guesses right and blocks it. Tomorrow will start in exactly the same spot, 5 confirmed Town, 3 unknowns, 2 of which are scum. Let's even futher assume that they all decide Sinjin was telling the truth and move her into the confirmed pile. They lynch Cookies/Blockey, it doesn't matter which. Scum kills Hoopy overnight, because if they don't they're conceding the game. Now we have 4 confirmed Town, 1 unknown, and one hidden scum. Kill the last unknown, NK a random confirmed overnight. 3 confirmed, 1 hidden scum. Do you really think Sinjin is going to be able to convince 2 of the confirmed that Hoopy was wrong/lying? That KidV isn't really a mason? Come on. The game is over.
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Post by Idle Thoughts on Jan 16, 2009 0:18:50 GMT -5
You're presuming you know what Town and Scum will do. But I can already tell you that Town (as you know) considered a no-lynch. And I can tell you that Scum (as you don't know) are considering the same--not killing anyone toNight, even though they SHOULD kill either Sinjin or Cookies. Either of these things (or other things that could happen) could change the game. I'm even getting PMs now (diary PMs, which, as most of you know, I have not been posting or sharing) where people are growing suspicious of Hoopy and KidV..and not really thinking they're who they say they are. So tell me again how it's so clear Town is going to win?
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Merestil Haye
FGM
Grudge Keeper
[on:Slumming it in the Middle-Earth][of:In the halls of Manw
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Post by Merestil Haye on Jan 16, 2009 9:16:24 GMT -5
1. The definition of "strongman" for a Mafiate is "A mafiate with a bonus kill." It's only Town strongmen who survive a lynch.
2. Your rules give the impression that people don't regain their roles until Dawn of Day 8; if Sinjin is lynched Today or NK'd Tonight, she should not survive. That wipes her death immunity right out.
I'm sorry, but the more I see this work, the more this mechanic looks like a mistake (and that's with the improvements you made from the original). It may be wacky, and it may be suited to the source material, but that doesn't guarantee good gameplay. Sadly for everyone involved.
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Post by Nanook on Jan 16, 2009 9:37:53 GMT -5
Did you read what I wrote Idle? I already accounted for there being no NK Tonight. It doesn't change the math one bit. People may express suspicion of someone, but when it comes down to it, no one will vote for Hoopy or an uncounterclaimed mason over Sinjin. Well, other than Sinjin herself, but that hardly counts.
Oh and I agree with Mhaye. I like a lot of the twists you put in, but this one doesn't work. We all know the game can't end Tonight, but by rights it should be able to. Sinjin is not currently a strongman, so she should be able to die. Hoopy can't investigate Tonight, so why should Sinjin get the protective power of her normal role? You can't give one player the benefit of their role without giving it to everyone. It's unfair. And the possibilty, though it won't happen in this case, that someone could lose the game by doing the right thing Tonight is ludicrous. If TL and MM did the right thing Tonight, and kill one of the unconfirmed, they would lose the game by doing so. That's completely unfair, in the same way that recruitment is unfair. Especially since you didn't say that it could happen before the game started.
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Post by Idle Thoughts on Jan 16, 2009 12:19:13 GMT -5
1. The definition of "strongman" for a Mafiate is "A mafiate with a bonus kill." It's only Town strongmen who survive a lynch. 2. Your rules give the impression that people don't regain their roles until Dawn of Day 8; if Sinjin is lynched Today or NK'd Tonight, she should not survive. That wipes her death immunity right out. I'm sorry, but the more I see this work, the more this mechanic looks like a mistake (and that's with the improvements you made from the original). It may be wacky, and it may be suited to the source material, but that doesn't guarantee good gameplay. Sadly for everyone involved. 1. Well, not mine, obviously. I'm using the name/roles strongman and scotsman here to be the same. 2. That's correct....but as I've said, the person dies. Since Sinjin, the person's, original role is strongman, she would survive (and therefore be alive again, at the start of Day Eight, with one life remaining). This is something I've had planned since the beginning of the game, so nobody's going to talk me out of it, haha. I don't care. It's a facet I already had into play and planned. This is why I said IT IS BETTER if Sinjin IS outed. But everyone thought that'd be unfair towards scum.
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Post by Idle Thoughts on Jan 16, 2009 12:23:04 GMT -5
Did you read what I wrote Idle? I already accounted for there being no NK Tonight. It doesn't change the math one bit. People may express suspicion of someone, but when it comes down to it, no one will vote for Hoopy or an uncounterclaimed mason over Sinjin. Well, other than Sinjin herself, but that hardly counts. Oh and I agree with Mhaye. I like a lot of the twists you put in, but this one doesn't work. We all know the game can't end Tonight, but by rights it should be able to. Sinjin is not currently a strongman, so she should be able to die. Hoopy can't investigate Tonight, so why should Sinjin get the protective power of her normal role? You can't give one player the benefit of their role without giving it to everyone. It's unfair. And the possibilty, though it won't happen in this case, that someone could lose the game by doing the right thing Tonight is ludicrous. If TL and MM did the right thing Tonight, and kill one of the unconfirmed, they would lose the game by doing so. That's completely unfair, in the same way that recruitment is unfair. Especially since you didn't say that it could happen before the game started. I don't care about the math. Math doesn't account for stupid mistakes people might make. Things that you don't figure could happen but do. Oh, sure, the math shows it like it is. But you don't know what could happen or what people could do. My only point is, I disagree with you that it's clearly over. Maybe I'm in denial..but it doesn't matter. The bottom line is: I disagree with you. So debating about it is just pointless. : ) Sinjin is not getting the protective power. She will die. And then, when everything goes back to how it was. She will live again since her role allows her one extra death. You seem to be not understanding what I had in mind for this Day, apparently. It's basically a time out from the game. And then the game will resume on Day Eight. It's sort of like the Back to the Future movies. You need to think fourth dimensionally. Sinjin will be dying this Day if she's voted for. As would anyone else lynched. The only difference between them and her, however, is that THEY would not have a strongman's role waiting for them when everything goes back to what it was. She will. And that gives her an out. I didn't make that role to be cheated. She WILL have an extra death, no matter WHAT the circumstances. And you can think that's unfair all you want...but when it comes down to it, I'm the mod. : ) So what I say goes because it's my game.
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Post by CatInASuit on Jan 16, 2009 12:33:48 GMT -5
Idle T - sinjin is a Doc. If they lynch the Doc, the Doc is dead, do not pass Go, do not collect $200.
Sinjin is not alive to regain her role at the start of the next Day regardless of what power he previous role had.
But, as you say, its your game.
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Post by Idle Thoughts on Jan 16, 2009 12:37:16 GMT -5
Sometimes I feel that it's like I just can't win. I mean, I FORESAW this happening if it were like this. That's why I wanted to have it be where everyone got the roles and names, too. That way Sinjin would have made her bed and would have to lie in it. Isn't that what this game is all about, after all? Your actions sometimes having future consequences that you can't foretell? Her claiming would have made it so she'd be discovered toDay when everyone changed roles. I knew that already...but a lot of people in this topic thought that THAT was unfair somewhat...so...
...I changed it. Even though I didn't really want to change it, I changed it because I thought "well, hey, it's constructive critisim. But I knew--see--I knew, that I was going to have Sinjin have that extra death no matter what. This is why I figured it'd probably work out best that she's discovered. Because now that it's changed, I still want her to have that extra death that I always intended her to have no matter what. Only now people in here are seemingly saying that's an even BIGGER SNAFU.
And if it seems like I'm making a big deal out of this, that's because I am because I'm batshit crazy and most people know not to poke me. It's better to just smile and nod and go "Okay, Idle, it's your game" because it's stuff like this that not only makes me not want to play in another game (which I've already been NOT doing, mostly) but also never HOST another game either.
So just lay off, all of ya. I know you're not being mean or anything but I feel like I'm being ganged up here and backed into a corner and DON'T START SAYING STUFF TRYING TO EXPLAIN YOUR COMMENTS LIKE "I wasn't saying that, I was just saying...etc."[/size] just smile and nod and say "it's okay, Idle". : )
It's time for me to go to bed. : /
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Post by Idle Thoughts on Jan 16, 2009 12:37:53 GMT -5
Idle T - sinjin is a Doc. If they lynch the Doc, the Doc is dead, do not pass Go, do not collect $200. Sinjin is not alive to regain her role at the start of the next Day regardless of what power he previous role had. But, as you say, its your game. Guess what? I don't give a shit. If you don't like it, don't play in another game of mine, then.
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Post by CatInASuit on Jan 16, 2009 13:05:49 GMT -5
Idle Thoughts, guess what, I enjoy playing in your games. ;D I just wish I had more time to. You just happen to have added a condition that no-one else really has a handle on. However, you know what is going to happen next and that is all that matters.
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Parzival
Mome Rath
Let's all strive to do our best today![on:forgot to log out][of:forgot to log in]
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Post by Parzival on Jan 16, 2009 13:09:01 GMT -5
I like the idea of the generic roles - and I'm glad you went with the expanded list of possibilities.
For what it's worth, I assumed that Sinjin would have the power of resurrection and don't understand the reaction against it. I assume that she will be really and truly dead (in her current role) for one Night if she is lynched - which means current scum can't target her if she dies. Is that correct?
The scum side has a big advantage with their toughguy, but they also started with only a few members, and one hidden member - so they deserve the bonus. I think they've played fairly well and had a little bit of luck (but they'll need a bunch more to pull through).
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Post by Idle Thoughts on Jan 16, 2009 13:30:45 GMT -5
You all just have to have my way of thinking, that's all. And since that's near impossible even if I was sane (har har), I don't expect people to fully understand it. Here it is, however, one more time...trying to say how it is in my head. How I think:
I had it planned that Day Seven would be like, an alternate universe. Everything would be like a bizarro land, but then everything would go back to how it was the next Day. So yeah, the people killed toDay I have decreed would really be killed and hence, their roles would be taken out. Everyone, except for Sinjin. In her case, her role has a safety feature on it (that extra life)...so it is prevented from being taken out with just one day lynch on it.
Now if Sinjin is ever killed at Night, well, then it just takes one...as her role only protects her from lynches.
Now, I know, I know..Sinjin is not the strongman right now. She's the Doc. So yes, she will die. She will actually die toDay if she's lynched.
However her role will still have life left on it. It's the person dying, remember? The person..not the role..that dies. And yeah, the person dying does take away the role they were..but in this case..the ROLE HAS AN EXTRA LIFE. So, the way my thinking is, when Day Eight goes back to how it was, Sinjin would be resurrected back into that role since it cannot be killed in one blow.
Sinjin would die, that means the next Day the Strongman role SHOULD be killed off too, but since it survives a kill, Sinjin gets it back, still alive.
I dunno..it makes perfect sense to me and always did. Sorry for getting so heated, but y'all know me by now. I take things so personally anyway, sometimes. I'm glad you play in my games too, Cat....it was just frustrating there for a bit because it seemed nobody was fully understanding how I meant the aspect of today COMBINED with the strongman role idea to be. Which, I admit, is no small feat. It's hard, sometimes, to get people to see your way of thinking when it's confusing to describe in the first place.
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Post by Rysto on Jan 18, 2009 21:13:57 GMT -5
Mitey just made a great post about sinjin. She did just fall into the trap of PIS.
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Post by Nanook on Jan 18, 2009 22:58:14 GMT -5
Big time. But you gotta give her credit, she's sure as hell going down fighting. She has no chance of making it work, but it's fun to watch nonetheless.
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Post by special on Jan 18, 2009 23:38:06 GMT -5
Why isn't anyone making a big deal out of the mason issue? Doesn't hoopy know the Mason was not Town?
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Post by Nanook on Jan 19, 2009 1:45:37 GMT -5
Hoopy brought it up, and pointed out exactly why it's irrelevent. Only one mason alive means there's no way for them to steal a win. If there were 2, then there would be more discussion of it.
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Post by Zeriel on Jan 19, 2009 12:53:20 GMT -5
Man, at this point, I'm just rooting for everyone to die somehow. =P Stupid PFK role rassin' frassin' spiny everyone. =D
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Post by Idle Thoughts on Jan 20, 2009 5:25:41 GMT -5
Hoopy PMed me actually worried that KidV had a good point (in his posts) about how Hoopy could be lying.
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Post by Zeriel on Jan 20, 2009 12:16:27 GMT -5
I can't see how Town can lose this one at this point unless they shoot themselves repeatedly in the foot for no good reason.
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Post by NAF1138 on Jan 20, 2009 14:27:48 GMT -5
I can't see how Town can lose this one at this point unless they shoot themselves repeatedly in the foot for no good reason. Never underestimate towns ability to shoot themselves in the foot repeatedly for no good reason. But I do agree with you, this one looks like a lock.
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Post by Zeriel on Jan 20, 2009 14:49:57 GMT -5
Meh, I think I did a respectable job, all things considered. Wish I hadn't had vacation plus outages--my not being my normal self over Christmas certainly contributed to the suspicion on me.
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Post by Rysto on Jan 20, 2009 20:14:56 GMT -5
I realize that sinjin is scum and has to make things up at this point, but I feel the need to respond to this:
The primary goal of a cop is to confirm townies, not find scum. The town is on the cusp of victory in this game because Hoopy has found so many Townies. Had Hoopy investigated scum instead of a townie, I don't think that the Town would have the game locked up yet.
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Post by special on Jan 20, 2009 20:57:39 GMT -5
I realize that sinjin is scum and has to make things up at this point, but I feel the need to respond to this: The primary goal of a cop is to confirm townies, not find scum. The town is on the cusp of victory in this game because Hoopy has found so many Townies. Had Hoopy investigated scum instead of a townie, I don't think that the Town would have the game locked up yet. I think that finding Town is the primary goal of a Cop until he's outed. Then his primary goal should switch to finding Scum. Once outed, finding Town can't do as much, since Scum can take their pick of his confirmed Town for their NKs without much danger even with a protector. I can think of a recent example, where an investigator outed himself, confirmed some town, who were each killed the Night after confirmation until his death. And, the next Night, the last of his confirmed were killed. An outed Cop finding Scum leads to a lynch of said Scum.
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Post by special on Jan 20, 2009 20:58:27 GMT -5
Man, at this point, I'm just rooting for everyone to die somehow. =P Stupid PFK role rassin' frassin' spiny everyone. =D At least you had a power.
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Post by Zeriel on Jan 21, 2009 8:34:27 GMT -5
I don't really think it counts as a "power" unless it does something other than "make people suspect me more".
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Post by special on Jan 21, 2009 12:35:54 GMT -5
I don't really think it counts as a "power" unless it does something other than "make people suspect me more". That's true, but at least you had something you could actively do to try to win. I'm really not still bitter about being a survivor. No, really. I love not making it to endgame. Endgames are so boring
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Post by Zeriel on Jan 21, 2009 13:56:13 GMT -5
I don't really think it counts as a "power" unless it does something other than "make people suspect me more". That's true, but at least you had something you could actively do to try to win. I'm really not still bitter about being a survivor. No, really. I love not making it to endgame. Endgames are so boring Heh, I can't think of more than once or twice I've made it to endgame--after all, not everyone can. Only thing I'm actually bitter about is the idea I could have won if it was a standard "bomb half of the people" bomber win condition.
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Post by Idle Thoughts on Jan 22, 2009 14:42:13 GMT -5
Standard? I've never heard of that before. All the Mad Bomber roles I've heard of or seen require every living person to have a bomb on them.
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Post by Høøpy Frøød on Jan 22, 2009 14:45:14 GMT -5
Hello all. Mind if I join you?
I'll be reading through this in a bit, but I have to actually go do some real work to do at work.
You know, no matter how certain you are about something, there's always that little part of you that says "What if you're wrong?"
I'm glad I told that part to fuck off.
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Post by Nanook on Jan 22, 2009 15:22:04 GMT -5
So like..can we end this now? Cookies has no outs with Hoopy dead, and they're likely to kill KidV via the hammer thing anyways.
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