Trepa Mayfield
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Day 1
Jan 25, 2009 12:44:31 GMT -5
Post by Trepa Mayfield on Jan 25, 2009 12:44:31 GMT -5
Life wasn't too bad for y'all for a while. Granted, repeated fighting can take a lot out of people, especially when it is others' sport, but you've managed. But about a month ago, the atmosphere started to change. Graffiti appeared on the walls of Smasher Mansion. Matches got more furious, and little injuries started to appear at night. Nothing the on-site hospital couldn't take care of, but still. Five days ago, the group behind this made themselves known, via anonymous pamphlet: the Smashers Community United for Mutiny, talking about how people needed to rise up against HAL Laboratories and their local crony, Master Hand.
Unfortunately for the SCUM, that was the same day the first death happened. It didn't matter that the hospital managed to revive him, there was an uproar. Most people were convinced the SCUM did it. The SCUM were convinced someone was after their life, and that it was time to stop recruiting and to start killing. Two days later, a representative of HAL came. He had an unusual solution...start killing back. No-one was happy with this idea, but everyone was panicky, and looking for a solution.
So here you are now. 24 in number, and none of you can make heads or tails of who's who. A joint kill during the day, SCUM kill by night (as HAL made it clear that the matches go on until the death of the franchise, no less!). Also, there's an imposter among you. As the trauma team was leaving (you can't blame them, but still...) they reported that the first body had indeed died. Clearly, someone has snuck in, looking for his (or her) own victory. This one must die as well.
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Trepa Mayfield
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Does Not Follow Directions
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Day 1
Jan 25, 2009 12:49:12 GMT -5
Post by Trepa Mayfield on Jan 25, 2009 12:49:12 GMT -5
Alright, in addition to all that, there are a few administrative things I'd like to get out of the way. I'm never sure which way I want them to go, so I'm going to let you guys decide. Votes for these are purple, and just regular voting.
1. Would you like ordinary day length to be: 6 day Day/1 day Night? 5 day Day/2 day Night? 4 day Day/2 day Night? Note that if you pick the 6/1, strategy will not be allowed at night, but if you pick the other two, it will. Scum (and masons, if there are any) will be able to converse day and night regardless.
2. How should ties be broken? Coin Flip? First Player Alphabetically? Last person to vote?
3. Lastly, do you like the Borda Count system? Be honest! Yes No
If 75% or more say no, I'll do away with it.
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Day 1
Jan 25, 2009 12:56:03 GMT -5
Post by special on Jan 25, 2009 12:56:03 GMT -5
1. Would you like ordinary day length to be: 6 day Day/1 day Night? 5 day Day/2 day Night? 4 day Day/2 day Night? Vote 5-22. How should ties be broken? Coin Flip? First Player Alphabetically? Last person to vote? vote coin flip3. Lastly, do you like the Borda Count system? Be honest! Vote yesand 28 players? and Scum kill during the Day?
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Merestil Haye
FGM
Grudge Keeper
[on:Slumming it in the Middle-Earth][of:In the halls of Manw
Posts: 1,077
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Day 1
Jan 25, 2009 12:57:01 GMT -5
Post by Merestil Haye on Jan 25, 2009 12:57:01 GMT -5
It's time for the reminder. (This is especially important given my role in the last game). Grudges Are Bad, people. They lead you away from the True Path of enlightenment onto the chaotic path of revenge and spoiling your own side's chances to win. So put them away and wait for Grudge Match Mafia, mmmkay? Now for the administrative stuff OBM has asked about. 1. Would you like ordinary day length to be: 6 day Day/1 day Night? 5 day Day/2 day Night? 4 day Day/2 day Night? Note that if you pick the 6/1, strategy will not be allowed at night, but if you pick the other two, it will. Scum (and masons, if there are any) will be able to converse day and night regardless. Option b. I had enough troubles with short Days in Evil Dead. Option c. Timestamps are objective. It makes the game different, and I want to try another game with it.
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Day 1
Jan 25, 2009 12:57:24 GMT -5
Post by tdpatriots12 on Jan 25, 2009 12:57:24 GMT -5
1. Vote 5/2 2. Vote Coin Flip 3. Vote Yes
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Trepa Mayfield
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Day 1
Jan 25, 2009 12:58:58 GMT -5
Post by Trepa Mayfield on Jan 25, 2009 12:58:58 GMT -5
and 28 players? and Scum kill during the Day? I wrote that color a long time ago. At that point, the game was bigger, and Day and Night were switched. I'll just fix that...
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Gir!
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EVIL Demon Goddess Mod
What? Kat is sweet and innocent!
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Day 1
Jan 25, 2009 13:01:01 GMT -5
Post by Gir! on Jan 25, 2009 13:01:01 GMT -5
1. I'm thinking 5 day Day/2 day Night.
2. Why not the traditional "first person to reach the high vote"?
3. Dunno, never played using it.
Since this thread is "Day 1" does that mean we've got a Day start?
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Day 1
Jan 25, 2009 13:17:22 GMT -5
Post by Holy Moley! on Jan 25, 2009 13:17:22 GMT -5
Alright, in addition to all that, there are a few administrative things I'd like to get out of the way. I'm never sure which way I want them to go, so I'm going to let you guys decide. Votes for these are purple, and just regular voting.
1. Would you like ordinary day length to be: 6 day Day/1 day Night? 5 day Day/2 day Night? 4 day Day/2 day Night? Note that if you pick the 6/1, strategy will not be allowed at night, but if you pick the other two, it will. Scum (and masons, if there are any) will be able to converse day and night regardless. VOTE 5-2
2. How should ties be broken? Coin Flip? First Player Alphabetically? Last person to vote? LAST PERSON TO VOTE
3. Lastly, do you like the Borda Count system? Be honest! Yes No I LIKE IT
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Day 1
Jan 25, 2009 13:20:47 GMT -5
Post by roxis on Jan 25, 2009 13:20:47 GMT -5
1. Vote 5/2 2. Vote Coin Flip 3. Yes. I don't mind it, so I'll vote yes. :)
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Day 1
Jan 25, 2009 13:23:11 GMT -5
Post by peekercpa on Jan 25, 2009 13:23:11 GMT -5
4-2, coin flip, sure/why not
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Day 1
Jan 25, 2009 13:32:12 GMT -5
Post by Rysto on Jan 25, 2009 13:32:12 GMT -5
Vote 5-2
I'd prefer Kat's suggestion of first player among the tied players to reach the highest total. Barring that, coin flip. Last vote means that in case of a tie, players are encouraged to spam unvote/revote their favoured candidate. And if we go with alphabetical order, I'm changing my name to Zysto.
Yes. Borda count was a blast in T2 for both Sides(and I'm the only player qualified to say that).
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Merestil Haye
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Grudge Keeper
[on:Slumming it in the Middle-Earth][of:In the halls of Manw
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Day 1
Jan 25, 2009 13:37:32 GMT -5
Post by Merestil Haye on Jan 25, 2009 13:37:32 GMT -5
I'm going to change my vote for the tiebreak system.
In the event of a tie, the person with the higher vote count immediately before the tie was established wins.
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Trepa Mayfield
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Day 1
Jan 25, 2009 13:51:27 GMT -5
Post by Trepa Mayfield on Jan 25, 2009 13:51:27 GMT -5
Since this thread is "Day 1" does that mean we've got a Day start? Yes, you've got a day start. All PMs are out. They should give alignment as well as role info in the () part, but because I just added that, some may not.
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Day 1
Jan 25, 2009 13:58:31 GMT -5
Post by MiteyMouse on Jan 25, 2009 13:58:31 GMT -5
5/2 coin flip is good for me. I'm still a bit confused by it but I don't mind it. So I'll vote that it's ok.
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Trepa Mayfield
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Does Not Follow Directions
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Day 1
Jan 25, 2009 14:00:16 GMT -5
Post by Trepa Mayfield on Jan 25, 2009 14:00:16 GMT -5
Administrative stuff vote count:
Day length: 6/1 (0) 5/2 (8) Mr. Special Ed, Mhaye, tdpatriots12, Kat, molefan, roxis, Rysto, miteymouse 4/2 (1) peekercpa
Tiebreaker: Coin Flip (5) Mr. Special Ed, tdpatriots12, roxis, peekercpa, miteymouse Alphebetical (0) Last Vote (1) molefan Write in for First Vote (3) Kat, Rysto, MHaye
Borda: Yes (6) Mr. Special Ed, Mhaye, tdpatriots12, molefan, roxis, Rysto Don't Know or Don't Care (3) Kat, peekercpa, miteymouse No (0)
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Day 1
Jan 25, 2009 14:02:43 GMT -5
Post by The Real FCOD on Jan 25, 2009 14:02:43 GMT -5
I'm going to try to post a vote count at least once per page. If I'm not around for some reason and someone wants a count feel free to PM me!
--FCOD
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Koldanar
Mome Rath
[on:I survived the apocralypse!][of:Into the void, go I]
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Day 1
Jan 25, 2009 14:12:46 GMT -5
Post by Koldanar on Jan 25, 2009 14:12:46 GMT -5
Checking in right now...getting a free turkey dinner tonight!! As for my input : 5-2 seems to be the majority, so i'll go with that. Vote 5-2[. The other items I have no real opinion on at the moment.
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Trepa Mayfield
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Day 1
Jan 25, 2009 14:23:52 GMT -5
Post by Trepa Mayfield on Jan 25, 2009 14:23:52 GMT -5
Day length: 6/1 (0) 5/2 (9) Mr. Special Ed, Mhaye, tdpatriots12, Kat, molefan, roxis, Rysto, miteymouse, Koldanar 4/2 (1) peekercpa
Tiebreaker: Coin Flip (5) Mr. Special Ed, tdpatriots12, roxis, peekercpa, miteymouse Alphebetical (0) Last Vote (1) molefan Write in for First Vote (3) Kat, Rysto, MHaye
Borda: Yes (6) Mr. Special Ed, Mhaye, tdpatriots12, molefan, roxis, Rysto Don't Know or Don't Care (3) Kat, peekercpa, miteymouse No (0)
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Day 1
Jan 25, 2009 14:27:29 GMT -5
Post by sachertorte on Jan 25, 2009 14:27:29 GMT -5
5-2 (five plus two equals seven!) Last vote is a terrible idea. There is no stability in such a system as there is strong motivation (and justification)for the "losing" side to unvote and revote to establish position as the last vote. Such a system is broken. First vote makes a better tie-breaker as it can't be gamed. First vote (though MHaye's refinement might be even better; but I can accept first vote as an easier bookkeeping method.) I don't care about borda or not borda. abstain
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Trepa Mayfield
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Day 1
Jan 25, 2009 14:30:56 GMT -5
Post by Trepa Mayfield on Jan 25, 2009 14:30:56 GMT -5
Day length: 6/1 (0) 5/2 (10) Mr. Special Ed, Mhaye, tdpatriots12, Kat, molefan, roxis, Rysto, miteymouse, Koldanar, sachertorte 4/2 (1) peekercpa
Tiebreaker: Coin Flip (5) Mr. Special Ed, tdpatriots12, roxis, peekercpa, miteymouse Alphebetical (0) Last Vote (1) molefan Write in for First Vote (4) Kat, Rysto, MHaye, sachertorte
Borda: Yes (6) Mr. Special Ed, Mhaye, tdpatriots12, molefan, roxis, Rysto Don't Know or Don't Care (4) Kat, peekercpa, miteymouse, sachertorte No (0)
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Day 1
Jan 25, 2009 14:52:02 GMT -5
Post by sinjin on Jan 25, 2009 14:52:02 GMT -5
5/2 coin flip haven't done borda before so
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Day 1
Jan 25, 2009 15:03:32 GMT -5
Post by sachertorte on Jan 25, 2009 15:03:32 GMT -5
I'd like to ask the coin-flippers to reconsider. I really don't like games to be decided by a coin flip. It isn't guaranteed to make a difference, but sometimes it does. In Simpletown, the scum Godfather ended up in a tie with a Townie, coin-flip killed the scum and I think made a big difference in that game (can't be sure, but you know). Anyway, I hate coin-flips. First vote also has the residual benefit of rewarding people for voting early, which is a good thing! If we go the coin-flip route, I'd really really like to avoid putting the fate of the game in the hands of a coin.
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Trepa Mayfield
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Day 1
Jan 25, 2009 15:06:04 GMT -5
Post by Trepa Mayfield on Jan 25, 2009 15:06:04 GMT -5
I'd like to ask the coin-flippers to reconsider. I really don't like games to be decided by a coin flip. It isn't guaranteed to make a difference, but sometimes it does. In Simpletown, the scum Godfather ended up in a tie with a Townie, coin-flip killed the scum and I think made a big difference in that game (can't be sure, but you know). Anyway, I hate coin-flips. First vote also has the residual benefit of rewarding people for voting early, which is a good thing! If we go the coin-flip route, I'd really really like to avoid putting the fate of the game in the hands of a coin. It made a difference to me... Day length: 6/1 (0) 5/2 (11) Mr. Special Ed, Mhaye, tdpatriots12, Kat, molefan, roxis, Rysto, miteymouse, Koldanar, sachertorte, sinjin 4/2 (1) peekercpa Tiebreaker: Coin Flip (6) Mr. Special Ed, tdpatriots12, roxis, peekercpa, miteymouse, sinjin Alphebetical (0) Last Vote (1) molefan Write in for First Vote (4) Kat, Rysto, MHaye, sachertorte Borda: Yes (6) Mr. Special Ed, Mhaye, tdpatriots12, molefan, roxis, Rysto Don't Know or Don't Care (5) Kat, peekercpa, miteymouse, sachertorte, sinjin No (0)
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Day 1
Jan 25, 2009 15:11:27 GMT -5
Post by MiteyMouse on Jan 25, 2009 15:11:27 GMT -5
I'm going to change my mind to Write in for First Vote
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Gir!
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EVIL Demon Goddess Mod
What? Kat is sweet and innocent!
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Day 1
Jan 25, 2009 15:16:53 GMT -5
Post by Gir! on Jan 25, 2009 15:16:53 GMT -5
What will happen if there's a tie for the tie-breaking method? ;D
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Trepa Mayfield
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Does Not Follow Directions
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Day 1
Jan 25, 2009 15:26:05 GMT -5
Post by Trepa Mayfield on Jan 25, 2009 15:26:05 GMT -5
What will happen if there's a tie for the tie-breaking method? ;D Day length: 6/1 (0) 5/2 (11) Mr. Special Ed, Mhaye, tdpatriots12, Kat, molefan, roxis, Rysto, miteymouse, Koldanar, sachertorte, sinjin 4/2 (1) peekercpa Tiebreaker: Coin Flip (5) Mr. Special Ed, tdpatriots12, roxis, peekercpa, sinjin Alphebetical (0) Last Vote (1) molefan Write in for First Vote (5) Kat, Rysto, MHaye, sachertorte, miteymouse Borda: Yes (6) Mr. Special Ed, Mhaye, tdpatriots12, molefan, roxis, Rysto Don't Know or Don't Care (5) Kat, peekercpa, miteymouse, sachertorte, sinjin No (0) We go meta. Vote how you want to break the tie on how to break ties. Kidding. I get the deciding vote.
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Day 1
Jan 25, 2009 15:40:34 GMT -5
Post by Rysto on Jan 25, 2009 15:40:34 GMT -5
It looks like there are only four of us who played in T2, so I think that a rehash of effects that Borda has on the game would be valuable for the players who've never seen it before(plus it's a good discussion starter -- always important on Day 1). For those of you who don't know what Borda is, here's a quick refresher:
Basically, Borda is an alternative voting mechanism. Each Day, every player gets to place 3 votes instead of 1. Each vote must be for a different player. The #1 vote gives three lynch points, the #2 vote gives two lynch points and the #3 vote gives one lynch point. Whichever player has the most points at the end of the Day is lynched. The concept is quite simple. The difficulty for Town comes in analysing voting patterns. The difficulty for scum comes in manipulating the voting.
The big that that I noticed was that Borda encourages players to vote insincerely to get their #1 choice lynched. For example, suppose I believe that storyteller is the scummiest player, and NAF is the second scummiest player, and the vote count is at NAF 25, story 23. If I vote sincerely, I vote #1 story and #2 NAF, and NAF gets lynched 27-26. But I can get my #1 suspect lynched by voting story #1 and not voting for NAF at all. I think that we have to have a long discussion about strategic voting under Borda. The biggest problem with accepting Townies voting strategically is that it provides great camouflage for scum to do the same, and scum, with their massive information advantage, can vote strategically far more effectively than town can. I think that the town is best served if the lynch votes reflect the sincere desires of the Town -- scum manipulation will stand out better that way.
The best example I can think of insincere preferences affecting a lynch was the ShadowFacts lynch. After every vote came in, ShadowFacts was firmly in third place, with (IIRC) Zeriel and Rugger ahead of him. I think that Rugger was in first at the time. A vocal critic of the Rugger lynch jumped in and changed the order of his votes around to put Zeriel in first. Then Zeriel switched his votes around and there was a three-way tie. The vote switches continued until finally ShadowFacts had somehow jumped into the lead.
Now, as it happened, ShadowFacts was actually the only scum among the three, so it all end well for Town. But that only happened because the scum were too timid to step up and save their scum buddy. IMO, that was the #3 reason why scum lost T2.
For those discussing tiebreakers, consider the effects of Borda on your proposed tiebreaker. If the count is NAF 24 and story 23, and I vot #1 story and #2 NAF, they both reach 26 points at the same time. Who gets lynched in the first vote and last vote tiebreakers?
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Gir!
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EVIL Demon Goddess Mod
What? Kat is sweet and innocent!
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Day 1
Jan 25, 2009 15:49:11 GMT -5
Post by Gir! on Jan 25, 2009 15:49:11 GMT -5
Well, in a case like Rysto's final-paragraph example, how about whoever has more #1 votes? Would that work?
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Day 1
Jan 25, 2009 15:51:51 GMT -5
Post by tdpatriots12 on Jan 25, 2009 15:51:51 GMT -5
Well, in a case like Rysto's final-paragraph example, how about whoever has more #1 votes? Would that work? That makes the most sense to me. Total Points -> Most First Place Votes -> Coin Flip?
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Trepa Mayfield
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Day 1
Jan 25, 2009 16:00:57 GMT -5
Post by Trepa Mayfield on Jan 25, 2009 16:00:57 GMT -5
Well, in a case like Rysto's final-paragraph example, how about whoever has more #1 votes? Would that work? That does sound like a good decision. Is everyone okay with that? Because it seems like the best out of all the options so far.
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