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Day 4
Feb 16, 2009 16:51:21 GMT -5
Post by KidVermicious on Feb 16, 2009 16:51:21 GMT -5
Crud.
OK, I've at least skimmed through everything I missed while away. I'll get to Crazy in the next post, right now the only thing I have to add is that I agree with whoever first suggested the the player (iceclimber?) who escaped death should claim, because somebody non-town already wants you dead, and your claim will help us find scum by reducing the number of players we need to look at.
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Natlaw
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Day 4
Feb 16, 2009 16:53:10 GMT -5
Post by Natlaw on Feb 16, 2009 16:53:10 GMT -5
Anyway, LyLo counts won't help find SCUM, so an attempt at vote analysis. Chucara was town, if I assume paul and shaggy are not scum, the scum had it easy with three town options to lynch. Reasons to think they are town so far: paul hammered himself last Night and shaggy's living bomb power more likely to be town. Chucara got lynched over paul by some quick voting at the end of the Day. The vote total for the last couple of votes: | Paul | Chucara | shaggy | | 20 | 16 | 14 | Hal Briston | 20 | 18 | 15 | misterblockey | 17 | 21 | 15 | Natlaw | 17 | 23 | 15 | tdpatriots | 19 | 23 | 18 | misterblockey | 19 | 20 | 19 |
Since I know I am town, not much useful there I think - scum had no reasons to change vote that late if all three are not scum. Looking at the overall votes, who voted town the most (again that is an assumption): Voted all three candidates: Hal Briston, Kat!, crazypunker Voted two: Hoopy Frood, Nanook, Pollux de Fuego, TDPatriots, peekercpa, roxis Voted one: Natlaw, Parzival, misterblockey, molefan, shaggy* *) shaggy missed getting lynched by two votes and he gave himself one vote! Now the cases against all three had been building since Day Two, so even assuming all are town, I think scum might not want to vote for three townies at the same time. And the first vote count more than the other, let's see if that clears things up: Day Three vote on lynch candidates: 6 votes: Hal Briston, Kat!, crazypunker 5 votes: Hoopy Frood, Nanook, TDPatriots, peekercpa, roxis 4 votes: Pollux de Fuego 3 votes: Parzival, misterblockey2 votes: Natlaw, molefan, KidVermicious* 1 vote: shaggy * KidVermicious would have voted like that he said early in the Day. Still not much use, since it is for lynch candidates, not voted for scum/town. Well, that was much an exercise in borda vote analysis than it brought much insight. Hopefully with more alignments known, I can refine it.
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Day 4
Feb 16, 2009 18:04:03 GMT -5
Post by KidVermicious on Feb 16, 2009 18:04:03 GMT -5
What I have been doing so far isn't really working so I am going to change up a bit. I noticed in Pollux's list that there are a couple of players who I wonder about. I went back to read some posts and noticed a few things about KidV. I am going to post a summary of his posts from my perspective. Most of these posts aren't particularly scummy, but there are a couple of interesting things. Day 1- Voted Hoopy and Peeker because they voted Nanook. Changed to 1. Mitey 2. Zeriel 3. Ed when mason debacle started, without waiting to hear from Mitey. Notably, he gives no reasons, just "order of suspicion." (1)Changed to 1. Zeriel 2. Ed 3. Mitey because he liked that Mitey had no fear posting her PM. Asks all town facing lynch to post PM. Night 1-Fluff. Day 2- Asks Sin why he didn't post a vote count day 1 even though Sin had already explained why. States that 3rd place Ed votes might be considered suspicious. (2)Posts a few posts about things Ed is saying. Not necessarily egging him on, but definitely conversing with and/or about him. Votes 1. Ed 2. Aubby. At this point Aubby was already gaining a lot of suspicion and had 9 votes. He states that his reasons should be obvious. (3)Says he is tempted to place molefan number three... but he could be town. I think at that point anybody but Ed could be town right? (4)Can't decide whether Shaggy is scummy or confused. Shaggy already has 12 votes at this point. Changes vote order to 1. Ed 2. Molefan 3. Aubby. He had been back and forth with Molefan all day. Makes a couple more comments about what Ed is posting. First person to suggest ending the day early. Night 2-Nothing that stands out. Day 3- Says he will not vote day 3 unless something big happens. He will be away for a week. Posts unofficial vote of 1. Mole 2. Aubby 3. KidvNight 3-Nothing. Day 4- Nothing so far. As I said, most of these posts aren't really all that scummy, but none really stand out as town either. I found it slightly strange that he would be carrying on with Ed and then also be the first to suggest ending the day because of Ed (5). All of his votes except for Molefan seem to be pretty safe. The Molefan one seems a little defensive, but I can't call it scummy. I see a few good points on either side of the arguments between them. Also, He never responds when Pollux points out his votes in the mason debacle that had no reasoning (6). Hopefully he can ease my suspicion of him when he has a chance to catch up after missing a week's worth of posts. For now Vote KidV I am interested to hear what you have to say. Numbers in parentheses and vote bleaching are mine. 1) Pretty sure I wasn't the only one, why are you singling me out? We had three masons, one of which was scum, and so I tossed out three votes based on my gut. 2) You sure about that? Because I'm pretty sure what I said in D2.67 was: 3) Are you saying that even after your intensive examination of my post history, my reasons for voting Aubby weren't obvious? 4) Dunno if you missed the context here, or what. At that point, Molefans actions had not been enough to buy him a vote from me. 5) You're just making shit up, now. This is exactly why I went after Molefan, and now I'm quite suspicious of you too. For the record, what I said was: 6) I don't make a habit of responding every time I see my name in the thread. Pollux didn't ask me a question, and didn't assert anything I felt the need to refute, so I didn't. So, yeah. There you go. Ball's in your court now, would you care to address any of the above?
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Day 4
Feb 16, 2009 18:09:42 GMT -5
Post by Høøpy Frøød on Feb 16, 2009 18:09:42 GMT -5
Well all I can say is I am sorry, I geuss I should have thought things out a alot more last night. I do feel really, really, really bad for taking out blockey . I am trying but it does seem like I am messing it all up here. Sorry and I do hope I can help and not be a hinderance in this game. If you are town, don't sweat it too much. We all screw up. The best thing you can do to help is to find scum. Look back on the previous Days and think about why people did what they did. If you know you are town, try to figure out why people voted for you? I know you've suspected me, but think about why I was pushing you. Was I scum, who knew you were an easy target, or was I Town, who saw someone acting more anti-town than others and put pressure on them. It's not always easy to figure out. But look at those who have bandwagoned you as well. Did they add anything new, or did they me-too? If they added something new, that's a slight townie tell. If they simply me-too'ed, that's a slight scummy tell. Neither point is in of itself an indicator, but it's part of a pattern. Assuming you're town, I've strongly pushed for two town lynches previously: yours and chucaraubby. Why? Am I gutsy scum, or forceful townie? From a metagame standpoint, I'm not really acting any differently in being forceful than I was my previous 2 games here (SMB and Marvel) so the forcefulness itself is a null tell. I could be scum trying to pull off acting townie (in which case I've got molefan fooled by his earlier comment), or I could be genuine townie. The thing you have to look for is "why" I'm doing what I'm doing, not the action itself. Chucara seemed to think I was scum. It wasn't because I voted him, he conceded the case against aubby was a good one. He had a general feeling that I was acting differently, which kind of surprises me. Because right now, I'm the only confirmed town you guys got. I am Popo. I am, or more appropriately was, a Town Scotsman and Double Voter. Nana was my surrogate. With her, I could both avoid a single kill (be it lynch or otherwise), and vote twice. And by vote twice, I don't mean have my vote count twice. I could literally submit two first place votes, two second place votes, and two third place votes for anyone I chose. So I could double up with each vote, or place votes on six different players. The drawback of that power, is that it's pretty freaking noticeable, especially since for Nana's votes to count, I had to submit a full set of votes. I was actually going to use them to ensure chucara's lynch if it came to it, but the last minute changes around allowed me to stay hidden. The reason I held off on claiming in the beginning of the Day was to see what people had to say about Nana's death. Since that discussion seems to have died out, there's really nothing to be gained by hiding it any longer. I do not know who targeted me. I don't get that with the power, but I do know that whoever targeted me knows I survived. Now it's possible someone redirected a target to me, in which case you should probably claim if you are town, but that's a bit unlikely. And if I was targeted once, I'm likely to be targeted again. Because the kill was successful. It didn't take me out, but it took someone out. Anyone who targeted me and wants me dead is going to hit me again. Because nothing bad happened to the killer. So there is no reason for me not to claim. At least by claiming I open up WIFOM for scum with any doctors who could protect me. And now that I'm confirmed, I'm a likely target. The tradeoff is that I'm vanilla. Nana gave me the powers, because I essentially was playing two characters. I now just have popo, who can die and vote. I will say this, should I die toNight, we really should consider a mass claim, because it either means we have no protectors remaining, or scum have an easy way to block or bus-drive a doctor's protection, in which case, they're usefulness is diminished anyway. I'm happy to generate a list from random.org sometime toDay if the rest of you think it's at least something we should consider.
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Day 4
Feb 16, 2009 18:18:32 GMT -5
Post by Høøpy Frøød on Feb 16, 2009 18:18:32 GMT -5
NETA: As a minor note, originally I was going to let myself die upon a lynch, since when I got my role PM, I was not informed that the death provided confirming color. (And given my rants in previous games about the uselessness of forestalling lynch if you are pro-town in a closed setup, I'd be a hypocrite to not follow that myself.) In later conversations about my role I had with ped, he mentioned that Nana would show up as town, so I realized that my role actually is self-confirming.
I even breadcrumbed the exception to my previous rants in reply 373 of Day 1.
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Day 4
Feb 16, 2009 18:26:44 GMT -5
Post by Høøpy Frøød on Feb 16, 2009 18:26:44 GMT -5
Also to clarify this, since it might be a bit confusing:
"It didn't take me out, but it took someone out."
Whoever targeted me saw that I didn't die, but saw that a surrogate did. Either I was successfully targeted, someone else protected me and their surrogate died (which seemed to be parzival's interpretation of the surrogate, but to me a "stand-in" is pretty obviously a self-protector), or whoever targeted me got redirected to another pro-town role. Regardless, targeting me had no ill effect on the attacker and successfully took out a pro-town element (Nana). Which means, they have no reason not to try again.
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Gir!
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EVIL Demon Goddess Mod
What? Kat is sweet and innocent!
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Day 4
Feb 16, 2009 19:42:49 GMT -5
Post by Gir! on Feb 16, 2009 19:42:49 GMT -5
I’ve been waffling back and forth on saying anything about this, but I decided that I need to get at least this much information out for discussion. I got the following PM regarding my Night 3 Action:
“You spent your night trying to find ***** and his place on the record boards, but were unable to. You know your power was working, but something about ***** prevented you from using it."
I don’t know if the person I targeted was blocked by someone else, or if it is his/her own ability, or if this is something related to what happened with paul and Parzival. I am posting it in case it is somehow the third option (because obviously, I wasn't the only one with target-related weirdness last Night), but I’ll reveal who it is if people want to discuss the possibility that it’s one of the first two. If the person in question has a hiding ability, I don't want to out them if I don't have to, though.
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Day 4
Feb 16, 2009 20:18:20 GMT -5
Post by peekercpa on Feb 16, 2009 20:18:20 GMT -5
That being said: Unvote all1. Vote Natlaw 2. Vote peekercpa 3. Vote molefanThe reason I added peeker in there is because I feel like peeker has been contributing a lot of fluff and a lot of "I have no flippin idea what's going on in this game I don't understand the color what's going on woe is me" posts so his content-to-fluff ratio is skewed in a bad way. I know that's partly peekerstyle but again, it's gut. <Snipped> Sorry you feel that way, obviously. I actually thought that my post to content was getting better this game. Oh well, what can one do. One person's lemon is another's lemonade. I really wanted to come in here and jump on paul. But the more I read the more it feels like he is a town player with an anti town skill set. Maybe this game's version of a pede miller? Same with shag carpet. Played poorly with a bad outcome. But, scum or pfk, doesn't feel so. So sorry, Atarus (as a child I have known you as such). Also, let me add that this Borda vote process had me in the mind set that number one is your vote, number two is like an FOS, and number three is like a throw away. I am definitely reconsidering that attitude on a go forward basis. And as always, the above is caveated with "Scum would never do that". Meh, my two cents.
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Day 4
Feb 16, 2009 20:48:45 GMT -5
Post by Paulwhoisaghost on Feb 16, 2009 20:48:45 GMT -5
Also to clarify this, since it might be a bit confusing: "It didn't take me out, but it took someone out." Whoever targeted me saw that I didn't die, but saw that a surrogate did. Either I was successfully targeted, someone else protected me and their surrogate died (which seemed to be parzival's interpretation of the surrogate, but to me a "stand-in" is pretty obviously a self-protector), or whoever targeted me got redirected to another pro-town role. Regardless, targeting me had no ill effect on the attacker and successfully took out a pro-town element (Nana). Which means, they have no reason not to try again. Ummm... you just claimed. And you claimed vanilla. Why would scum target you now? Why would they choose vanilla when they can have Rocky Road?
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Day 4
Feb 16, 2009 20:48:45 GMT -5
Post by Pollux Oil on Feb 16, 2009 20:48:45 GMT -5
Ummm... same goes for us. I think you're missing my point. The win-obstructing PFK is basically a game of chicken between us and the scum. As long as we don't kill him off, the scum have to use their nightkill on them instead of a town. So if you really suspect shaggy is the PFK then we should absolutely NOT lynch him because as long as he's alive the scum can't win either. I firmly believe our lynch toDay should come from the last set of people. I think all of the claimed people so far have been acting in a townie enough manner that we shouldn't try and lynch them toDay. The only iffy one is paul as his continued insistence that shaggy is the PFK is a little disturbing to me. I put Kat in a group by herself because I'm not sure what's going on with her and her powers yet but I don't think she should be a lynch target. That's my personal opinion. I agree with Hoopy that a mass claim tomorrow might be a good idea.
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Day 4
Feb 16, 2009 21:13:21 GMT -5
Post by Paulwhoisaghost on Feb 16, 2009 21:13:21 GMT -5
Ummm... same goes for us. I think you're missing my point. The win-obstructing PFK is basically a game of chicken between us and the scum. As long as we don't kill him off, the scum have to use their nightkill on them instead of a town. So if you really suspect shaggy is the PFK then we should absolutely NOT lynch him because as long as he's alive the scum can't win either. I get that. But think of it this way. What happens if the scum control the vote and the PFK is alive? does the game end in a loss for everyone other than the PFK? Or does it continue on until the Scum have lynched/nk'd all the rest of the people they don't know to be scum? If so, the scum are going to kill him eventually. I don't know about you, but in this case I would rather the scum have a reason for targetting the self claimed vanilla rather than a town power role. The only iffy one is paul as his continued insistence that shaggy is the PFK is a little disturbing to me. I just want to make my stance on the situation known. People have argued against it so I have rebuttled with my arguments for it. I wouldn't call my refusal to dismiss my suspicion based on the opinions of others "insistence". Further, it kind of throws me for a loop that it would bother you enough that you would include it in a post and say I was iffy. Regardless of the fact that we dont want to lynch the PFK yet, it doesnt hurt to have our suspicions now. So if I am iffy.... well then maybe you should move shaggy to the unconfirmed part of your list. There is nothing saying that he isn't scum. In fact, Pede seems like the type who give a scum a weak ability like that just to make them less suspicious. In a way the weakness of the power actually make the it a stronger role for scum. For that matter, Hoopy is right, the only person who is actually confirmed to be town is Hoopy himself. Non of the rest of us have any way to be confirmed other than our actions. And if we do decide to mass claim tomorrow then I'll be very dissapointed that we gave the scum so much warning ahead of time to prepare their False Roles. Seems to me that sort of thing is best sprung on the scum.
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Day 4
Feb 16, 2009 21:18:26 GMT -5
Post by Paulwhoisaghost on Feb 16, 2009 21:18:26 GMT -5
In fact if we are going to do... let's do it today. No sense in waiting if we are all expecting it anyway. Here's a list from Random.org Lets get started.
molefan Pollux Oil roxis Hoopy Frood Nanook peek Parzival Koldy Natlaw KidV Kat crazypunker paulwhoisaghost shaggy Hal Briston
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Day 4
Feb 16, 2009 21:21:51 GMT -5
Post by Paulwhoisaghost on Feb 16, 2009 21:21:51 GMT -5
I'd also like to call Nanook out yet again... We are already on page 4 of the day and not a single post. There is plenty of stuff going on for him to post his opinion on the matters. We all know he has a post restriction, but not giving us his initial reactions to the current issues is not excusable by a post restriction.
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Day 4
Feb 16, 2009 21:22:21 GMT -5
Post by Høøpy Frøød on Feb 16, 2009 21:22:21 GMT -5
Ummm... you just claimed. And you claimed vanilla. Why would scum target you now? Why would they choose vanilla when they can have Rocky Road? For the same reason they target masons, even vanilla ones. I'm confirmed town. It's the most powerful anti-scum power in existence. A player who won't get lynched and whose motives can be trusted. (Not that the player is suddenly not going to act anti-town, but the anti-town actions come from honest mistakes, rather than scum motivations.) It's why masons don't typically claim early. Now seeing as how this seems to be a non-vanilla game, scum might shoot for a town power role, but the protectors and the detectives and the killers have been decimated. It's unlikely there are going to be too many of them left, and frankly the currently outed powers aren't all that dangerous to scum who are still fairly well hidden. So yeah, I'm a prime target, even with being Vanilla.
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Day 4
Feb 16, 2009 21:34:03 GMT -5
Post by Høøpy Frøød on Feb 16, 2009 21:34:03 GMT -5
I get that. But think of it this way. What happens if the scum control the vote and the PFK is alive? does the game end in a loss for everyone other than the PFK? Or does it continue on until the Scum have lynched/nk'd all the rest of the people they don't know to be scum? If so, the scum are going to kill him eventually. I don't know about you, but in this case I would rather the scum have a reason for targetting the self claimed vanilla rather than a town power role. The game continues until all win conditions for that side are met. Which means, should scum control the vote, town still has a chance should any third parties reduce the scum numbers back. And they'll have to if they still want to win. I don't think there's ever been a game on these boards or the Dope where such a scenario played out, but I see no reason why it wouldn't work that way. Bah. If scum want to false claim, they've already created their false claims, or thrown out enough ideas to formulate them, or possibly even been provided with cover roles. Scum as a collective are not stupid. But if we rush into a claim, we quite possibly expose vital town roles. Plus, it won't take that long for someone to create a viable false claim anyway, so it's unlikely a quick mass claim is going to trip anyone up. Mass claims are used to create datapoints. They hold scum to act consistently with what they've claimed. They also can reveal questionable setups (i.e. if we have four more people claim doctor, there's going to be some 'splaining to do). But the last thing you want to do is rush into one.
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Day 4
Feb 16, 2009 21:44:11 GMT -5
Post by Høøpy Frøød on Feb 16, 2009 21:44:11 GMT -5
In fact if we are going to do... let's do it today. No sense in waiting if we are all expecting it anyway. Here's a list from Random.org Lets get started. molefan Pollux Oil roxis Hoopy Frood Nanook peek Parzival Koldy Natlaw KidV Kat crazypunker paulwhoisaghost shaggy Hal Briston Dude, keep your pants on. There are two ways to make a random.org player list: 1) Seed it with an as yet undetermined score from a soon-to-be-played sports event so as everyone can check your list to avoid scummy manipulations. This is the recommended method when no one is confirmed. 2) Have a confirmed townie to generate a list. You are not confirmed, so either I do it, or we agree upon a sporting event.
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Day 4
Feb 16, 2009 22:05:51 GMT -5
Post by KidVermicious on Feb 16, 2009 22:05:51 GMT -5
Hoopy, whats with the insistence that you're confirmed? Absent a counter-claim, I'm willing to believe that you are the player that escaped death last Night, but I'm don't see where that says anything definate about your alignment.
I agree that you're probably town, but I object to the idea that you're confirmed.
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Day 4
Feb 16, 2009 22:17:24 GMT -5
Post by Pollux Oil on Feb 16, 2009 22:17:24 GMT -5
I get that. But think of it this way. What happens if the scum control the vote and the PFK is alive? does the game end in a loss for everyone other than the PFK? Or does it continue on until the Scum have lynched/nk'd all the rest of the people they don't know to be scum? If so, the scum are going to kill him eventually. I don't know about you, but in this case I would rather the scum have a reason for targetting the self claimed vanilla rather than a town power role. I'm so confused right now. When you originally quoted me, you said "we have to kill him (the PFK) too." My point was that we (town) don't want to lynch/vig the PFK, we want to make the scum kill the PFK. Now it seems like you're arguing that point against me like I disagree with that. Which I don't. I just want to make my stance on the situation known. People have argued against it so I have rebuttled with my arguments for it. I wouldn't call my refusal to dismiss my suspicion based on the opinions of others "insistence". Further, it kind of throws me for a loop that it would bother you enough that you would include it in a post and say I was iffy. Regardless of the fact that we dont want to lynch the PFK yet, it doesnt hurt to have our suspicions now. So if I am iffy.... well then maybe you should move shaggy to the unconfirmed part of your list. There is nothing saying that he isn't scum. In fact, Pede seems like the type who give a scum a weak ability like that just to make them less suspicious. In a way the weakness of the power actually make the it a stronger role for scum. Where in my list am I marking anybody as confirmed? I simply organized it into people who have claimed and people who haven't, and then put forward the suggestion that toDay's lynch come from the unclaimed pool because I feel that the claimed people are acting in a townie manner. And I singled you out as iffy because I find your actions the most suspicious and I also find your role the most likely to be a scum role out of the claimed ones. But I still find you more townie than other people which is reflected in my votes. And if we do decide to mass claim tomorrow then I'll be very dissapointed that we gave the scum so much warning ahead of time to prepare their False Roles. Seems to me that sort of thing is best sprung on the scum. Hoopy's already pointed this out, but please. The scum have been able to talk since minute one of Day One. They'll have had their roles ready for claim a long time ago, it's Scum 101. The only way to surprise a mass claim on scum is if it's done Day One and scum aren't allowed to talk during the Day. Trying to surprise scum with a mass claim is moot at this point.
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Day 4
Feb 16, 2009 22:20:30 GMT -5
Post by Pollux Oil on Feb 16, 2009 22:20:30 GMT -5
Hoopy, whats with the insistence that you're confirmed? Absent a counter-claim, I'm willing to believe that you are the player that escaped death last Night, but I'm don't see where that says anything definate about your alignment. I agree that you're probably town, but I object to the idea that you're confirmed. Really? Seriously? REALLY? So you're saying you're holding on to the possibility a Scum/PFK would have a surrogate that shows up Town? That's not game-breaking at ALL. Unvote all1. Vote KidVermicious 2. Vote Natlaw 3. Vote peekercpaThat's just absurd. Hoopy is as confirmed as we're going to get at this point barring some leftover detective revealing their investigations and then dying.
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Day 4
Feb 16, 2009 22:38:28 GMT -5
Post by peekercpa on Feb 16, 2009 22:38:28 GMT -5
I'm so confused right now. <Snipped> Hey. Who already said this and caught shit for it and by whom? Fucking three guesses and the first two don't count.
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Day 4
Feb 16, 2009 22:57:31 GMT -5
Post by KidVermicious on Feb 16, 2009 22:57:31 GMT -5
Don't be ridiculous, Pollux. Nobody is confirmed unless they're an uncountered Mason or a dead Town detective says they are.
"As confirmed as we're going to get" does not equal 100% confirmed.
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Day 4
Feb 16, 2009 23:49:03 GMT -5
Post by Pollux Oil on Feb 16, 2009 23:49:03 GMT -5
Don't be ridiculous, Pollux. Nobody is confirmed unless they're an uncountered Mason or a dead Town detective says they are. "As confirmed as we're going to get" does not equal 100% confirmed. As far as I'm concerned, Hoopy is confirmed in absence of a counterclaim, and it really bothers me you had to try and squeeze in doubt in there somewhere. This is a completely different situation than, say, the one we have with Solid Snake. A town surrogate is dead, and it is clearly stated by the mod what the alignment of the surrogate is. I refuse to believe a mod would give a PFK/scum a surrogate that shows up as town. That, in my opinion, is going into bastard-modding territory. Just because this has never happened before doesn't mean it can't go on the list of "completely confirmed" possibilities. Hey. Who already said this and caught shit for it and by whom? Fucking three guesses and the first two don't count.
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Day 4
Feb 17, 2009 4:39:07 GMT -5
Post by Paulwhoisaghost on Feb 17, 2009 4:39:07 GMT -5
Don't be ridiculous, Pollux. Nobody is confirmed unless they're an uncountered Mason or a dead Town detective says they are. "As confirmed as we're going to get" does not equal 100% confirmed. I would say that the absence of a counterclaim on such a town role would confirm him. The only person that has yet to post is Nanook. Although, we haven't heard from Hal since Hoopy claimed.
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Day 4
Feb 17, 2009 4:59:21 GMT -5
Post by Paulwhoisaghost on Feb 17, 2009 4:59:21 GMT -5
I get that. But think of it this way. What happens if the scum control the vote and the PFK is alive? does the game end in a loss for everyone other than the PFK? Or does it continue on until the Scum have lynched/nk'd all the rest of the people they don't know to be scum? If so, the scum are going to kill him eventually. I don't know about you, but in this case I would rather the scum have a reason for targetting the self claimed vanilla rather than a town power role. I'm so confused right now. When you originally quoted me, you said "we have to kill him (the PFK) too." My point was that we (town) don't want to lynch/vig the PFK, we want to make the scum kill the PFK. Now it seems like you're arguing that point against me like I disagree with that. Which I don't. Okay let me see if I can clarify my point. You said Of course, hey scum, he could still be the PFK that is obstructing your win condition. So nyaaaaah you have to kill him now. Neener. I countered with Ummm... same goes for us. All I said was that the PFK was still standing in the way of our win condition. I realize now that it was a very bad miscommunication. I dont think we should kill Shaggy, I do think that we are at more of a disadvantage than the scum in the fact that they can NK all the town until they control the votes and leave him for last if they want. I don't think we would make it that far seeing as we are 1 for 3 on lynches. (Day 2 shouldn't really count because in order to make this lynch painfully obvious we had to kill 2 town.) [ Where in my list am I marking anybody as confirmed? Sorry, this was my fault. I read the word "claimed" but for some reason my brain translated it to "confirmed". It happens to me sometimes, often resulting in horrible communication issues. [ And if we do decide to mass claim tomorrow then I'll be very dissapointed that we gave the scum so much warning ahead of time to prepare their False Roles. Seems to me that sort of thing is best sprung on the scum. Hoopy's already pointed this out, but please. The scum have been able to talk since minute one of Day One. They'll have had their roles ready for claim a long time ago, it's Scum 101. The only way to surprise a mass claim on scum is if it's done Day One and scum aren't allowed to talk during the Day. Trying to surprise scum with a mass claim is moot at this point. Okay, I admit I didn't think this one through. I get a little worked up, and often don't think very long before I post. I guess I need to take a step back and gather my thoughts and post less, but more meaningful and correct posts. Sorry all for adding confusion to what will hopefully turn out to be a productive day. I recall my call for a mass claim.
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Day 4
Feb 17, 2009 7:06:27 GMT -5
Post by harmless little bunny on Feb 17, 2009 7:06:27 GMT -5
Numbers in parentheses and vote bleaching are mine. 1) Pretty sure I wasn't the only one, why are you singling me out? We had three masons, one of which was scum, and so I tossed out three votes based on my gut. If you will notice I voted you 3rd. I said that most of the posts I commented on were not really scummy. If anything was really scummy I would have voted you 1st. I posted all of the posts anyways because it helps paint the entire picture. The few things that I thought were slightly scummy I commented on at the bottom of the post. Like I said at the start I am changing my strategy a little bit because we as a town are not doing so well right now. Asking if the 3rd place votes can be considered scummy seems like just a more subtle way of hinting that they are. As I said before, I was just posting everything that I noticed. I didn't say that there were no reasons. I was just pointing out the wording you used. You said he could be town. Of course he could be. Anyone could be. I assumed you were ending it because of Ed. Either way, I didn't find that fact by itself especially scummy anyways. It was more of the fact that you were talking with Ed and then decided to end it. Obviously that was the scum's plan to get us to end the day without getting much information. I don't appreciate you claiming I am making stuff up. That is obviously exactly what happened. You talked to Ed and then you wanted to end the day. What exactly am I making up? You accused Molefan of "flinging shit" earlier and now I am making things up? Are you suspicious of everyone who votes you? Fair enough.
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Day 4
Feb 17, 2009 7:12:35 GMT -5
Post by harmless little bunny on Feb 17, 2009 7:12:35 GMT -5
I’ve been waffling back and forth on saying anything about this, but I decided that I need to get at least this much information out for discussion. I got the following PM regarding my Night 3 Action: “You spent your night trying to find ***** and his place on the record boards, but were unable to. You know your power was working, but something about ***** prevented you from using it." I don’t know if the person I targeted was blocked by someone else, or if it is his/her own ability, or if this is something related to what happened with paul and Parzival. I am posting it in case it is somehow the third option (because obviously, I wasn't the only one with target-related weirdness last Night), but I’ll reveal who it is if people want to discuss the possibility that it’s one of the first two. If the person in question has a hiding ability, I don't want to out them if I don't have to, though. I doubt that this has anything to do with what happened to Parzival, but it is still a possibility. I wonder if ***** is the PFK. You know who it is. Do you think that it is a possibility? A win-stealing PFK who hides seems like a definite possibility to me.
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Day 4
Feb 17, 2009 7:43:42 GMT -5
Post by Paulwhoisaghost on Feb 17, 2009 7:43:42 GMT -5
Question, if the town can't win until the PFK is dead... and the scum can't win until the PFK is dead.... and if the game goes on until the either the scum have control of the voting AND the PFK is dead, or the town eliminate all scum AND the PFK is dead...... Then what would the PFKs win condition be? I had just assumed that the PFK would win with either side when their win condition is met and he is still alive. i.e. Scum controls voting, but PFK is still alive. Thus Scum and town lose, PFK wins.
However, earlier discussion came to the conclusion that the game would continue until either Scum or Town met both win conditions. Doesn't that make it impossible for the PFK to win? I know the odds are extreme against them... but to make it impossible is messed up.
Pede or FCOD, can you clarify the win conditions and game end scenarios? Or do you think that it would be game breaking in a way that I am not seeing?
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Day 4
Feb 17, 2009 7:52:44 GMT -5
Post by Høøpy Frøød on Feb 17, 2009 7:52:44 GMT -5
Don't be ridiculous, Pollux. Nobody is confirmed unless they're an uncountered Mason or a dead Town detective says they are. Yeah, 'cause Masons are always Town aligned around here. Isn't that right, Ed? (And let us not forget your happy little steal-the-win band in SMB.) And really, as Fuego said, a PFK/Scum with a town surrogate? WTF?
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Day 4
Feb 17, 2009 8:13:02 GMT -5
Post by Høøpy Frøød on Feb 17, 2009 8:13:02 GMT -5
Question, if the town can't win until the PFK is dead... and the scum can't win until the PFK is dead.... and if the game goes on until the either the scum have control of the voting AND the PFK is dead, or the town eliminate all scum AND the PFK is dead...... Then what would the PFKs win condition be? I had just assumed that the PFK would win with either side when their win condition is met and he is still alive. i.e. Scum controls voting, but PFK is still alive. Thus Scum and town lose, PFK wins. However, earlier discussion came to the conclusion that the game would continue until either Scum or Town met both win conditions. Doesn't that make it impossible for the PFK to win? I know the odds are extreme against them... but to make it impossible is messed up. Pede or FCOD, can you clarify the win conditions and game end scenarios? Or do you think that it would be game breaking in a way that I am not seeing?Fat chance on getting much of an answer on that, but since both sides clearly need the impostor dead in order to win, the impostor is probably a serial killer (and explains the extra kills each night that would be unlikely to come from a vig and weren't from trophifying). Serial killers typically need to be the last person remaining alive to win, although, there can be variations on that. Rysto in Last Bastion needed all scum dead and 2 or fewer other players remaining to win. He won by getting town to lynch the last scum, and with four players left including him, and the rest were vanilla, he killed another townie that night FTW. This is why right now it's in our best interest to leave the impostor alive, whoever he is. And it's in the impostor's best interest right now to start ganking the scum, because the more town that die, the closer he is to exposure, and since scum are very much ahead right now, they will have no qualms about taking him out when he's exposed. They're far enough ahead right now that they might leave me alone toNight and go fishing for the impostor, since even if they don't hit him, they'll likely take out a power role of some sort. Confirmed town are stronger the more that exist. A lone confirmed isn't all that dangerous. But at the same time, by leaving me alive and taking someone else out, they narrow the pool for where both they and the impostor can hide. So there's positives and negatives about any kill they pick. Our silver lining in this is scum know we aren't going to take out the impostor as long as scum have the upper hand, so they are going to have to do it or risk everyone losing to him at this point. And the impostor knows that if he weakens town too much, he will probably hand the game to scum and lose anyway.
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Trepa Mayfield
FGM
Does Not Follow Directions
The only kind of panda worth preserving.
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Day 4
Feb 17, 2009 9:46:59 GMT -5
Post by Trepa Mayfield on Feb 17, 2009 9:46:59 GMT -5
Question, if the town can't win until the PFK is dead... and the scum can't win until the PFK is dead.... and if the game goes on until the either the scum have control of the voting AND the PFK is dead, or the town eliminate all scum AND the PFK is dead...... Then what would the PFKs win condition be? I had just assumed that the PFK would win with either side when their win condition is met and he is still alive. i.e. Scum controls voting, but PFK is still alive. Thus Scum and town lose, PFK wins. However, earlier discussion came to the conclusion that the game would continue until either Scum or Town met both win conditions. Doesn't that make it impossible for the PFK to win? I know the odds are extreme against them... but to make it impossible is messed up. Pede or FCOD, can you clarify the win conditions and game end scenarios? Or do you think that it would be game breaking in a way that I am not seeing?The PFK has his own set of win conditions, and he wins when those conditions come to fruition.
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