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Post by storyteller0910 on Aug 23, 2007 13:23:15 GMT -5
For instance, if someone claims on day three to have an investigative role and claims their targets each night, go back and see if those targets match the person they were voting for or voiced suspicion of. How many other claimed investigators are there? Any dead ones? If you believe them for now, re-examine them tomorrow. Did they survive the night? Why? Who did they target last night? It's difficult, but possible, for scum to fake claim major roles, and that kind of risk makes the game a BLAST. You have a lot more experience than I, so I'll have to take your word for it, but I'm not seeing the difficulty. If I were scum in such a set-up, I'd simply devise a pretend pro-town role for myself at the outset. I'd establish all its rules and then play the game exactly as if it were real. If I give myself a pretend investigative role, on Night 1 I'd "investigate" someone and find them pro-town, and then on Day 2 I'd mysteriously find reasons not to vote for them. I'd introduce some sort of possibility for error into my pretend role, to allow myself a chance to weasel out of any tight corners. And off we go.
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Post by JSexton on Aug 23, 2007 13:25:01 GMT -5
Interesting. I'm keep my Days and Nights on a fixed schedule. If there's a tie, then there's no lynch. Make sure that stalemates can't happen. Hey, can I float one of my ideas for my Blade Runner game here? The stalemate thing has driven me nuts for a while. I hate random.org, I'm not a fan of the runoff voting, or the no-lynch thing - they all just seem so inorganic. Here's my idea: In my game there will be a power role called the Governor. The Governor will be intrinsically neither pro-town nor pro-scum, because he or she will not be assigned by me. At the beginning of the first Day, there will be a 12-hour period in which the town will not be allowed to vote on a lynch - they will instead elect a player to be Governor. This could be anyone, elected for any reason - scum or town. The Governor will have the power to resolve any tie vote; if a vote is tied at the end of the Day, the Governor chooses one of the two tied candidates for lynching. Not a huge deal, but potentially quite powerful. The Governor can be killed at night like any other player, but can only be removed from the post by lynching. If the Governor dies, the following Day will commence with a new 12-hour election. I think the election periods will generate some interesting discussion, and perhaps some interesting evidence for later game lynching decisions. Players who backed a candidate who turned out to be scum, for example, might look bad. Or might not. What think? That's a great idea, and it also fills another major design hole: the firestarter. Day one, there's often very little to discuss, hence tinhgs like random voting. In my games, I always include a topic of conversation for th players day one to get going, such as letting them decide the deadline for day one. Electing a governor is a tremendous idea, and one I plan to steal for an upcoming game. In the general case, though, my preferred way of handling ties is this: First, I set a deadline. If a person reaches a majority before then, they are lynched immediately. If deadline hits, there is no lynch. This way, there can be no ties. I always get complaints that it hurts the town, but it's not true, and I'll tell you why. Allowing a lynch at deadline of whoever has the most votes allows lynches on players with 25% or less of players chiming in. It allows scum to get by without talking. In short, it encourages apathy. By requiring a majority, there is no excuse for not talking and not voting. Pro-town.
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Post by JSexton on Aug 23, 2007 13:33:03 GMT -5
For instance, if someone claims on day three to have an investigative role and claims their targets each night, go back and see if those targets match the person they were voting for or voiced suspicion of. How many other claimed investigators are there? Any dead ones? If you believe them for now, re-examine them tomorrow. Did they survive the night? Why? Who did they target last night? It's difficult, but possible, for scum to fake claim major roles, and that kind of risk makes the game a BLAST. You have a lot more experience than I, so I'll have to take your word for it, but I'm not seeing the difficulty. If I were scum in such a set-up, I'd simply devise a pretend pro-town role for myself at the outset. I'd establish all its rules and then play the game exactly as if it were real. If I give myself a pretend investigative role, on Night 1 I'd "investigate" someone and find them pro-town, and then on Day 2 I'd mysteriously find reasons not to vote for them. I'd introduce some sort of possibility for error into my pretend role, to allow myself a chance to weasel out of any tight corners. And off we go. OK. Now imagine that in your 4-person scum group, each person needs to establish a separate role, each different from the next. Each of you has to be willing to change that on the fly if an actual townie claims the role they picked out. And each needs to keep in mind that they don't actually know each other's roles, and let anything slip that way. See, that's the pitfall: the best way to play scum is to be the best townie possible. But because you necessarily have to do some lying, there is room for error. And playing with a fake role in mind introduces even more potential for error. You have to keep all the facts compartmentalized: What you know as scum what you "know" as a fake townie", and what you know about the roles of your compatriots. Knowledge is power, but betraying that knowledge is also the way that scum get caught. In one game I played in, I read my role pm as far as "You are scum" and stopped. I played the entirety of day one with no clue who my team was, and played as though I was town. I lynched one of my team day one, too. Heh. That set me up incredibly well for the rest of the game, and we never lost another teammate.
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Post by sachertorte on Aug 23, 2007 13:57:45 GMT -5
In one game I played in, I read my role pm as far as "You are scum" and stopped. I played the entirety of day one with no clue who my team was, and played as though I was town. I lynched one of my team day one, too. Heh. That set me up incredibly well for the rest of the game, and we never lost another teammate. Intriguing idea, but isn't that kind of defeating the purpose of the game? Why even bother reading the PM at all until after the first day?
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Post by JSexton on Aug 23, 2007 15:14:14 GMT -5
In one game I played in, I read my role pm as far as "You are scum" and stopped. I played the entirety of day one with no clue who my team was, and played as though I was town. I lynched one of my team day one, too. Heh. That set me up incredibly well for the rest of the game, and we never lost another teammate. Intriguing idea, but isn't that kind of defeating the purpose of the game? Why even bother reading the PM at all until after the first day? Eh, it was an experiment. I doubt that I'd really repeat it. It only makes sense in day starts, for one thing, and most games start in night, either full night or cop head start. It's kinda like playing an occasional hand of poker blind, just to keep people on their toes, looking for tells that can't actually exist.
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Post by NAF1138 on Aug 23, 2007 17:08:18 GMT -5
I actually have a fairly involved pointing scheme for balancing games, although it applies only to closed setups. The thing about power roles is that they get exponentially more powerful, especially in certain combinations. Example: a lone cop has some power, but is dead the moment they reveal results. A lone doc has to rely on some extremely good guesses to ever have an actual effect on the game. However, together they're like a machine gun, as the scum HAVE to find the doc before they can do anything about the cop, who can now openly claim and post results. That's an obvious interaction, but there are more. The reason that it only applies to closed setups is simple: with open setups, you provide methods to confirm townies with every single role you hand out. Open setups don't need masons, by the way, because the primary purpose of a mason is to be confirmed. In this game, several pro-town roles are confirmable. The cupid, for instance, was a one-man masonry. Anyway, one player on my main site proposed the Trees theory of mafia design: You have to provide enough trees for the mafia to hide behind. Trees, in this case, are non-confirmable townies. If too many townies can confirm themselves with a claim, then it becomes trivial to lynch the remainder until you win. Boring and broken. Would you mind expanding on that, or possibly sharring the pointing scheme? The game Kat and I are working on is a closed set up game and I would be interested to see how your system balances the game compaired to mine.
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Post by JSexton on Aug 23, 2007 19:04:17 GMT -5
Would you mind expanding on that, or possibly sharring the pointing scheme? The game Kat and I are working on is a closed set up game and I would be interested to see how your system balances the game compaired to mine. Sure. The basic idea is to assign points for each role, with vanilla townies forming a baseline of 1 point each. The goal is to end up within, say 2 or 3 points of each other for town and scum. Keep in mind that this is still pretty subjective, and is open to debate about the exact pointing. Cop: 4 Doc: 3 Vig: 2.5 Compulsory Vig: 1.5 (some say less. Heck, some say it's worse than vanilla town) Roleblocker: 2 Back-Up Cop: 2.5 Back-Up Doc: 2 Watcher: 2 Tracker: 2 1 Shot Vig: 2 self-confirming townie: 2 2 man masonry: 2 points each 3 man masonry: 2.5 points each 4 man masonry: 3 points each Vanilla Townie: 1 You can have roles that are worth less than a townie nothing or even negative, such as: Miller: .5 (hey, at least he can vote!) Self-ending townie (dies automatically given a certain threshold): 0 Voteless Townie: -1 (because he still counts toward the lynch number) Scum Basic Mafia: 4.5 Godfather: 7 Investigator: 6 Toughguy (bonus nightkill): 7 Daykiller (bonus daykill): 7.5 Roleblocker: 6.5 Redirector: 7 Serial Killer: I actually consider the SK a vanilla mafioso for purposes of game balance, with added points for abilities like being untargetable, investigating as innocents, etc. After looking at certain interactions (like cop+doc) I will add bonus points for the town. The scum might also have certain synergies, like getting a bonus point of they have both a role investigator AND a redirector. For unusual roles (like the Bingo manager), you just need to think about what the actual impact on the game will be, and equate it to an existing role. Finally, how does the game start? Day start generally favors the town: +1 to town Cop Head Start (Night start with use of all abilities but no Kills allowed: +2 to town Normal Night start: 0 This is very much a work in progress. One way to evaluate it's effectiveness is to go back and look at a completed game that went down to the wire where nothing went dramatically wrong for either side (i.e., no modkills or anything like that). That should, in theory, be a well-balanced game. Then point it, and see if it comes out even. If it doesn't, then you might be pointing incorrectly and need to adjust your method. edit: oh, and I'd be happy to look over a setup and give it a review, if you like.
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Post by Death By Irony on Aug 23, 2007 19:23:03 GMT -5
What about things like multiple scum groups who may or may not have cross-kill protection? Or cult?
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Post by Gir! on Aug 23, 2007 20:28:49 GMT -5
What about stuff like the Avatar (random kill at time of death) or the Apprentice/Beat Cop (with a certain percentage possibility of getting incorrect or no results)?
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Post by JSexton on Aug 23, 2007 22:12:46 GMT -5
What about things like multiple scum groups who may or may not have cross-kill protection? Or cult? multiple scum groups should be scored separately, with each getting roughly equal points. I would balance them roughly 40/30/30 for town/scum1/scum2, though, just to make the town doesn'tg et overwhelmed. Cults, I absolutely despise, for several reasons. For one, I think they violate a basic premise of the game, in that behavioral tells are no longer accurate throughout the course of the game. More importantly, they do not reward good play with wins. Think about it: if you are amazing townie, lynching scum after scum, then are suddenly recruited? Now you're suddenly on the losing team, and it's due to your own good play. Vice versa, you can be a lousy townie, mislynching town, and get recruited onto the winning team. Um...great, I guess, but you don't really deserve that win. So I don't really have advice on balancing cults, because I don't think they belong in mafia.
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Post by JSexton on Aug 23, 2007 22:16:18 GMT -5
What about stuff like the Avatar (random kill at time of death) or the Apprentice/Beat Cop (with a certain percentage possibility of getting incorrect or no results)? Random kill? I guess I'd mark it at 0. It's more than likely going to be a liability. I don't like random roles like that, though. The Crazy Townie from this game is basically slightly worse than a one-shot vig, so 1.5 points. Beat Cop, I'd put at 1.5. The results are very nearly meaningless, although multiple cops can help that. Again, I'm not a fan of random effects.
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Post by Death By Irony on Aug 24, 2007 8:45:57 GMT -5
Thought of some more roles:
*survivor (plays to stay alive, wins with whoever or his own faction) *jester (plays to get lynched, wins as his own faction)
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Post by JSexton on Aug 24, 2007 10:57:50 GMT -5
Thought of some more roles: *survivor (plays to stay alive, wins with whoever or his own faction) Same as neutral role, i.e., wins with either side? I'd actually assign that 0, as it can benefit either side equally. Jesters really don't appear in serious games. If you do put one in, you absolutely have to inform the town that one is in the game. Thing is, it's another game mechanic that punishes good play, i.e, lynching people not on your side. But if you included it, it'd be 0 points, as again, it helps neither side.
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Post by Death By Irony on Aug 24, 2007 11:10:38 GMT -5
Here's a typical semi-closed setup for a newbie game at mafiascum:
a) 2 mafia, 1 cop, 1 doc, 3 townies b) 2 mafia, 1 cop, 4 townies c) 2 mafia, 1 doc, 4 townies d) 2 mafia, 5 townies
So in any game, there's a 50% chance of there being a Cop, a 50% chance of there being a Doc, and 25% of there being both or neither.
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Post by JSexton on Aug 24, 2007 11:58:39 GMT -5
Here's a typical semi-closed setup for a newbie game at mafiascum: a) 2 mafia, 1 cop, 1 doc, 3 townies b) 2 mafia, 1 cop, 4 townies c) 2 mafia, 1 doc, 4 townies d) 2 mafia, 5 townies So in any game, there's a 50% chance of there being a Cop, a 50% chance of there being a Doc, and 25% of there being both or neither. So for each game, they randomly choose one of the above setup, but it's not known which was chosen? I think that system as a whole is slightly leaning scum. Pointing: Each scum is worth 4.5, so they are at 9 for each set up. Towns: a) 4+3+1+1+1=10. (no bonus point, because the cop doesn't KNOW that there is a doc.) b) 4+1+1+1+1 = 8 c) 3+1+1+1+1=7 d) 1+1+1+1+1=5 Which is an average power of 7.5, compare to scum's 9 every game. I'd expect scum to win about 3 out of 5 games. If you started each game with a cop headstart, that would help bring it up, although note that there's only a cop in half the games.
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Post by Death By Irony on Aug 24, 2007 12:30:08 GMT -5
Yup, the players don't know which setup was chosen.
<analysis snipped>
Yup - the newbie mafia win rate is somewhere around that, probably higher because the newbies are easily manipulated itno mislynching.
In games with a confirmed Cop and Doc, though, the town pretty much wins each time (unless the town is massively incompetent).
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Post by sachertorte on Aug 24, 2007 13:14:09 GMT -5
I like the pointing system except I wonder how it address the size of the game. I am of the opinion that the size of the game alters the game balance quite a bit in such a way that a point system can't address. Is this pointing system for games of any size or is it used for games of a particular size?
For example, the teeny tiny game of 3 people, 2 town 1 scum has a pointing of 2 vs. 4.5. by points it doesn't look balanced at all, and maybe it isn't. But I think the game is certainly more balanced than the points indicate. Perhaps the small size of the population mitigates the point imbalance.
Similarly, I would suggest that a vanilla game of 36 town and 8 scum is wildly in favor of the scum despite having equivalent points.
I know, the points were just a guideline, but I wanted to point out that the size of the game appears to be an important parameter too. In other words, Mafia is not scalable.
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Post by RoOsh on Aug 24, 2007 13:52:12 GMT -5
Well the way I've always kept track is how you know you're doing well in a mafia game: If by the time you have 10 players left, and only 2 are scum- It favors the Town (esp. the more days you've had to start with obv).
If when there's 4 Mafia and 16 players left, it only favors the town if the cops alive and had plenty of role guessing chances.
And 6 and 24 is gonna for some reason always play out as neutral. But that's how i keep track as town, how "well" the town is doing. I want to keep the scum ratio to less the 1/4 every step of the way. However, this is all with the Cop role still intact. Take it away, and it HEAVILY favors scum at each of those stages, in my opinion.
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Post by Blaster Master on Aug 24, 2007 14:47:07 GMT -5
Interesting. I'm keep my Days and Nights on a fixed schedule. If there's a tie, then there's no lynch. Make sure that stalemates can't happen. Hey, can I float one of my ideas for my Blade Runner game here? The stalemate thing has driven me nuts for a while. I hate random.org, I'm not a fan of the runoff voting, or the no-lynch thing - they all just seem so inorganic. Here's my idea: In my game there will be a power role called the Governor. The Governor will be intrinsically neither pro-town nor pro-scum, because he or she will not be assigned by me. At the beginning of the first Day, there will be a 12-hour period in which the town will not be allowed to vote on a lynch - they will instead elect a player to be Governor. This could be anyone, elected for any reason - scum or town. The Governor will have the power to resolve any tie vote; if a vote is tied at the end of the Day, the Governor chooses one of the two tied candidates for lynching. Not a huge deal, but potentially quite powerful. The Governor can be killed at night like any other player, but can only be removed from the post by lynching. If the Governor dies, the following Day will commence with a new 12-hour election. I think the election periods will generate some interesting discussion, and perhaps some interesting evidence for later game lynching decisions. Players who backed a candidate who turned out to be scum, for example, might look bad. Or might not. What think? Actually, I was floating around a similar idea for MV, except it was going to be the Mayor. I didn't put it in, though, because there were a couple of game mechanics with regard to how I'd want it to work and how it'd interact with other roles that I couldn't figure out...which we can talk about after MV is over. Also, it sort of brings in the "Where did God come from?" question of... what happens if there's a tie when voting for the Governor/Mayor?
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Post by storyteller0910 on Aug 24, 2007 14:53:27 GMT -5
Hey, can I float one of my ideas for my Blade Runner game here? The stalemate thing has driven me nuts for a while. I hate random.org, I'm not a fan of the runoff voting, or the no-lynch thing - they all just seem so inorganic. Here's my idea: In my game there will be a power role called the Governor. The Governor will be intrinsically neither pro-town nor pro-scum, because he or she will not be assigned by me. At the beginning of the first Day, there will be a 12-hour period in which the town will not be allowed to vote on a lynch - they will instead elect a player to be Governor. This could be anyone, elected for any reason - scum or town. The Governor will have the power to resolve any tie vote; if a vote is tied at the end of the Day, the Governor chooses one of the two tied candidates for lynching. Not a huge deal, but potentially quite powerful. The Governor can be killed at night like any other player, but can only be removed from the post by lynching. If the Governor dies, the following Day will commence with a new 12-hour election. I think the election periods will generate some interesting discussion, and perhaps some interesting evidence for later game lynching decisions. Players who backed a candidate who turned out to be scum, for example, might look bad. Or might not. What think? Actually, I was floating around a similar idea for MV, except it was going to be the Mayor. I didn't put it in, though, because there were a couple of game mechanics with regard to how I'd want it to work and how it'd interact with other roles that I couldn't figure out...which we can talk about after MV is over. Also, it sort of brings in the "Where did God come from?" question of... what happens if there's a tie when voting for the Governor/Mayor? Good question. Have to think about that.
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Post by Death By Irony on Aug 24, 2007 14:55:22 GMT -5
Well, if you want to be evil, you can make it so that that day ends with a No Lynch if they can't elect a Mayor.
;D
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Post by storyteller0910 on Aug 24, 2007 15:15:54 GMT -5
Well, if you want to be evil, you can make it so that that day ends with a No Lynch if they can't elect a Mayor. ;D That's not a bad idea - I mean, work it into the background. The Governor is the only person with the legal authority to approve an extrajudicial lynching, so until a Governor is elected by simple majority, no lynching can occur. That'd keep them from creating ties.
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Post by JSexton on Aug 24, 2007 15:31:30 GMT -5
I like the pointing system except I wonder how it address the size of the game. I am of the opinion that the size of the game alters the game balance quite a bit in such a way that a point system can't address. Is this pointing system for games of any size or is it used for games of a particular size? For example, the teeny tiny game of 3 people, 2 town 1 scum has a pointing of 2 vs. 4.5. by points it doesn't look balanced at all, and maybe it isn't. But I think the game is certainly more balanced than the points indicate. Perhaps the small size of the population mitigates the point imbalance. 3 man superspeed mafia is fun, but isn't really mafia. You can run games with like 5 town, 1 scum, though, and those are actually somewhat balanced. I would tend to agree, though one of the main reasons is that it would be impossible to keep track of anything in a game that big. The scum could easily lurk in plain site and coast to victory. Agreed. I'm generally looking at games between 12 and 22 people, though, at the extremes. I think the points tend to work out ok in that range. I'm at a loss as to why the games on the dope run upwards of 35, as I think they quickly become unfun when you pass 25 players.
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Post by RoOsh on Aug 24, 2007 16:28:46 GMT -5
I agree. 25 should be the max.... Though i must say, now I kinda want to play a Bastard Mod game or something to that effect after reading the stories Dotchan posted. But i think it would make this logic driven group's heads explode.
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Post by NAF1138 on Aug 24, 2007 17:19:49 GMT -5
I agree. 25 should be the max.... Though i must say, now I kinda want to play a Bastard Mod game or something to that effect after reading the stories Dotchan posted. But i think it would make this logic driven group's heads explode. That is part of the reason why I wanted my next game off Dope to be a Bastard Mod game. But I liked Kat's Firefly idea better. I am not sure a Bastard Mod game would work on the Dope.
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Post by Death By Irony on Aug 24, 2007 19:16:51 GMT -5
I guess it remains to be seen, but how do Daytalking Scum (and Daytalking Masons) change the balance of the game?
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Post by replica rolex on Jan 25, 2010 20:51:32 GMT -5
I am a dirty hobo who likes to lick strangers when they get out of taxicabs.
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Post by NAF1138 on Jan 26, 2010 11:42:11 GMT -5
Replica Rolex makes a good point about game mechanics. We DO need more fake rolex watches. If you don't agree with me, see the rest of the forum for proof.
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Post by Natlaw on Jan 26, 2010 15:26:31 GMT -5
Well, it made me read this thread why was quite interesting . Perhaps a telling quote in relation to Civil War Mafia (over two years old though ): The one danger I see in a "no vanilla" game is that in my admittedly limited experience it is often (though not always) the vanillas who generate the most activity. With no cannon fodder, I'm afraid you might see a very cautious game. But I think the no deadline hurts the game more, as I don't feel the need to make 'a post a day keeps the scum away' as it can always wait a day with no deadline. The effect it reinforces self though as few posts lead to few responses lead to even fewer posts, etc.
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Post by Trepa Mayfield on Jan 26, 2010 17:38:27 GMT -5
Well, it made me read this thread why was quite interesting . Yeah. This thread is legendary. I'm kinda glad the spammers dredged it back up.
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