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Post by NAF1138 on May 5, 2009 20:14:14 GMT -5
Is this even true? I know it gets stated repeatedly as true, but is it actually true? I don't think that it is. No scum team I am aware of has gone on any fishing expiditions since, I think, the Pirates game. As a general rule it isn't necessary. I gave this example in TL's game; in Alpha Centuri the scum had figured out who had each power role long before anyone claimed without any fishing at all. The powers gave us all the information we needed by they way they played. Power roles, especially newbie power roles, play a whole hell of a lot like scum. So when you are scum this behavior gets thrown into sharp relief. This is less true of more experienced players, but no one but total newb scum is going to go fishing.
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Post by sinjin on May 5, 2009 20:31:55 GMT -5
Is this even true? I know it gets stated repeatedly as true, but is it actually true? I don't think that it is. No scum team I am aware of has gone on any fishing expiditions since, I think, the Pirates game. As a general rule it isn't necessary. I gave this example in TL's game; in Alpha Centuri the scum had figured out who had each power role long before anyone claimed without any fishing at all. The powers gave us all the information we needed by they way they played. Power roles, especially newbie power roles, play a whole hell of a lot like scum. So when you are scum this behavior gets thrown into sharp relief. This is less true of more experienced players, but no one but total newb scum is going to go fishing. I call bs on that. Your watcher helped a LOT. And I called you on role fishing in that game but knew I couldn't make it stick because you were being all Uncle NAF helping the newbs understand the game. On the other hand I do always think your scum. Want to confess now? Come on you know you do.
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Post by sinjin on May 5, 2009 20:35:55 GMT -5
FTR that last was snarkiness =/ smudgieness. Not claiming I think NAF is scum. (but still thinking in the reptilian part of my brain "tricksy, tricksy NAF")
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Post by zlw on May 5, 2009 20:36:34 GMT -5
Now on to Paul the mutha f****n ghost. You see I was suspicious of Sister Coyote basically because of her make believe about not knowing scum could talk, I used it my first game. ;D
And Paul and NAF well, NAF attacked Paul rather well in the Alpha game when they both were scum. So this is following the same pattern which means I am naturally going to look into it.
Night 1 Comments about me and IS not confirming me
Still watching you NAF
FOS IS and NAF
Day 1
Thought the relaying message was just color in SCs claim
Unvoted SC and voted IS
TotalLost makes mistakes because of language not scum slips
Language barrier explanation again
Back and forth with IS/NAF about joke votes
Hates the FOS
Says IS and his vote is stupid and explains why
Explains how targeting Pleo could be bad if a scum watcher is in the game
Back and forth with NAF
vote sisc for voting on a joke vote
got in a rib about Alpha game
rubbed it in that scum was awesome in the Alpha game
Nothing that I find interesting, I was really looking for interactions between him and SisC and NAF and I found some but not anything that strikes me.
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Post by Paulwhoisaghost on May 5, 2009 21:27:06 GMT -5
Nothing that I find interesting, I was really looking for interactions between him and SisC and NAF and I found some but not anything that strikes me. Sorry I wasn't interesting enough for you.... I'll try to pick it up a little... maybe I should cut back on the number of games I am in.... but I probably won't
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Post by Pollux Oil on May 5, 2009 22:36:05 GMT -5
Hm. Almost lynched anyway. I can see why it would have been done, but glad Sister Coyote got it instead. Heh. In case anyone cares, I can confirm that Almost Human is Groupie #2. We do the weird stuff. Sometimes together. @fcod: drainbead was lynched Day One in Asylum, and hockeyguy was lynched Day One in Apocalypse, in addition to others that were mentioned. RoOsh: You were Nightkilled in one game: Cecilvania. It was Night One so that could be why you don't remember. What is interesting to me is that nobody floated an idea about us groupies that immediately came to mind as soon as I saw AH knew who I was and not another groupie. We both know there are X amount of groupies. Maybe one of the groupies in the X has a mechanism/Night action of finding the other groupies, which also confirms alignment among the groupies. I'm surprised nobody put that case forward as a reason not to lynch me. It's still possible the Groupies are just a variant on vanilla town, and actually unconfirmable for alignment. We'll see I guess.
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Post by Pleonast on May 5, 2009 22:58:02 GMT -5
And I ask you Pleo how are the two investigator's claims confirmable aside from them turning up dead? And even if one of them ends up dead and town that definitely doesn't confirm that the other is town. I am trying to get information that will let me actually believe that we have a masonry of investigators. In my brain it is way more likely that we have a scum investigator and a town investigator than two town investigators that can confirm each other. Hmmm can we put two and two together, two anchors = two investigators. You don't think a scum group could come up with that scenario? We confirm them by testing their results. That means lynching those they identify as scum, and letting those they "confirm" be killed by scum. Or, ultimately by their own death. As long as we get enough info out of them before they die, we come out ahead. And we have to confirm each of them separately. Most excellent. I get to out a Mason and nail a scum w/ my last flurry of posts. Not a Mason! Yes, I want to be lynched, and the sooner the better. The longer you wait, the more I risk being recruited. Night-killers (scum included) are welcome to take their shots at me--if you're successful it saves the Town the trouble of lynching me. And I'm not trying to allay your thoughts about me. Being free of any incentive to avoid the lynch is liberating. You're getting unfiltered Pleonast now. Is this even true? I know it gets stated repeatedly as true, but is it actually true? I don't think that it is. No scum team I am aware of has gone on any fishing expiditions since, I think, the Pirates game. As a general rule it isn't necessary. Whether or not scum have recently gone fishing, it is still anti-Town behavior that must be punished.
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Post by RoOsh on May 5, 2009 23:58:51 GMT -5
RoOsh: You were Nightkilled in one game: Cecilvania. It was Night One so that could be why you don't remember. Yeah. I have no recollection of that game. Honestly, who kills me? I'm WAAAAY more fun to lynch.
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Post by The Real FCOD on May 6, 2009 8:12:18 GMT -5
Ah, crap. Oh well I still am giggling like a little girl about the amount of drama in Day One.
--FCOD
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Post by RoOsh on May 6, 2009 8:46:20 GMT -5
Que? Why the "Oh Crap"? That sounds... ominous.
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Post by The Real FCOD on May 6, 2009 8:52:53 GMT -5
Because I thought mine was the first game in which Town lynched Scum on Day One.
--FCOD
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Post by zlw on May 6, 2009 8:59:30 GMT -5
Ah, crap. Oh well I still am giggling like a little girl about the amount of drama in Day One. --FCOD *reading the gender confusion section on the mafia wiki* *looks up at this post* *back to the wiki* *back to the post*
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Post by sinjin on May 6, 2009 10:14:25 GMT -5
Ah, crap. Oh well I still am giggling like a little girl about the amount of drama in Day One. --FCOD Hey, no laughing at the inmates. Nope not at all, sach. I just thought it was funny to respond in kind (it takes very little to amuse me.)
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Post by Pleonast on May 6, 2009 10:55:07 GMT -5
That said- my thoughts on Night Talking: I actually loathe it. I know it's helping to give us more time to talk, but it squicks me out. Always has, always will. Because I view it as an easy easy place for scum manipulations on who to factor into killing. So with that- I'm not really going to be hypothesizing/suspicifying during the Night. I will glady answer any questions posed to me (best to bold my name if you want an answer from me- as I do look at those posts more), and I will give general comments, but I REALLY am not a fan of Night Talking. I gave my thoughts at the end of the Day and I'd rather those speak for me if I go into the Night rather than muddle it up with more thoughts at Night or to worry about something trying to misinterpret my words (:cough:) when/if I'm gone. (Ie: Kill someone during the Night, and then have the scum act like that's a justification/reasoning for to justify a death- because that's what I did when I was scum). I've been thinking about this and I feel the need to comment. This attitude is not helpful to the Town. First, as far as scum figuring out their Night-kill, the only difference between Day and Night talk is the intervening lynch. Scum can Day talk. They can immediately discuss the implications of our talk, Day or Night. Second, vanilla Townies should aspire to be Night-killed by scum. That's the best possible outcome for a Night kill (ignoring third parties) and a slight victory for Town. So no vanilla, or near-vanilla, Townie should be afraid of the Night kill. Third, while Day is the time to determine the lynch, Night is the time scum are finalizing their kill target. Their attention will be focused there, and so they may find it more difficult to keep up their Townie facade. Encouraging discussion at Night makes it more likely that scum will slip.
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Post by sachertorte on May 6, 2009 11:51:54 GMT -5
I agree with Pleonast. It's crazy to not talk during Night as a policy. If you have something to say you should say it, and not wait for... what exactly? To be killed at Night so you can't make your point?
After the lynch we had a flurry of posts. sinjin said she thinks zlw is scum. I said I think zlw is Town.
But the main thing is we got these thoughts out. If I waited until Day, I doubt I would have been as motivated. The downtime really takes you out of the moment. Or maybe I'd be distracted by who got killed (or who didn't get killed) and instead of all the discussion about zlw, we would have moved onto something else already.
BTW, my new point (or maybe I already said this) about zlw, is that zlw stuck his neck out with the whole Inner Stickler thing. I know that Pleonast and sinjin think that this was fishing and only scum fish, but I look at it entirely differently. Scum had no reason to question Inner Stickler. There was nothing to be gained from such an action and quite a bit to lose. zlw was not getting a whole lot of heat until just after the Inner Stickler claim and that was because zlw was asking Inner Stickler questions.
it's time to break out the "Scum wouldn't do that" missive.
If any of you were scum, what would you have done in response to Inner Stickler's claim? Would you have stuck your neck out and asked questions? OR would you STFU and ride out what was going to happen next? I think STFU is the scum play here. Scum asking Inner Sticker questions is incredibly risky and yields little to no benefit. What is the scum motivation for doing such a thing? I can't think of anything. The fishing reason is a fiction to me. We like to think that scum would do such a thing, but really, it rarely if ever happens. Town is information deprived, scum are less so. Town is much more likely to "want more" information and therefore 'go fishing.' Furthermore, townies feel implicitly justified in asking for more information, while scum are more likely to be circumspect. I recall being a power role and it was TOWNIES who kept pestering me for more information (not quite role fishing as my role was public). Scum players were quite content to leave me alone.
Furthermore, zlw unvotes Inner Stickler four minutes after Inner Stickler's claim and asks the M/F question five minutes after that. I have a hard time believing that a Day talking scum would decide to stick his neck out like that without consulting the rest of the scum. The quickness of zlw's action leads me to believe zlw was acting alone and therefore not scum.
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Post by Pleonast on May 6, 2009 12:43:39 GMT -5
I agree that zlw is likely Town, based on the current evidence. But when all we knew was that zlw was asking Stickler a detail about his role, there was no reason to believe the question was innocent.
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Post by NAF1138 on May 6, 2009 13:00:15 GMT -5
I don't think that it is. No scum team I am aware of has gone on any fishing expiditions since, I think, the Pirates game. As a general rule it isn't necessary. I gave this example in TL's game; in Alpha Centuri the scum had figured out who had each power role long before anyone claimed without any fishing at all. The powers gave us all the information we needed by they way they played. Power roles, especially newbie power roles, play a whole hell of a lot like scum. So when you are scum this behavior gets thrown into sharp relief. This is less true of more experienced players, but no one but total newb scum is going to go fishing. I call bs on that. Your watcher helped a LOT. And I called you on role fishing in that game but knew I couldn't make it stick because you were being all Uncle NAF helping the newbs understand the game. On the other hand I do always think your scum. Want to confess now? Come on you know you do. You didn't catch me fishing, you caught me displaying scumthink. I thought I was pointing out that vanilla town have no reason to be afraid of death only scum do, but I forgot that scum don't have to worry about Night Kills. So you were right, but for the wrong reasons. And we picked out all the masons about 2 posts after Hannah claimed. Our watcher didn't do that. The boys also picked out the Doc without the help of the watcher. Not to brag on that scum team, but we really did some good work.
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Post by sinjin on May 6, 2009 13:11:36 GMT -5
All right NAF, I agree, you were the best scum team of all time. The only reason we even got to lynch you was because MHaye parachuted in to save the day and you had those penalty points. I'm just getting soooooo tired of being on the losing team* I'm starting to channel zuma. Town absolutely lost the AC game. What, we had 3 townie power roles not claiming when under the lynch gun? We definitely deserved to lose that one.
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Post by NAF1138 on May 6, 2009 13:14:02 GMT -5
All right NAF, I agree, you were the best scum team of all time. The only reason we even got to lynch you was because MHaye parachuted in to save the day and you had those penalty points. I'm just getting soooooo tired of being on the losing team* I'm starting to channel zuma. Town absolutely lost the AC game. What, we had 3 townie power roles not claiming when under the lynch gun? We definitely deserved to lose that one. Thank you. That's all I wanted And don't go all zuma on us.
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Post by NAF1138 on May 6, 2009 13:16:14 GMT -5
I don't think that it is. No scum team I am aware of has gone on any fishing expiditions since, I think, the Pirates game. As a general rule it isn't necessary. Whether or not scum have recently gone fishing, it is still anti-Town behavior that must be punished.[/quote] I agree, that anti-town behavior should, in general, be punished in the early game. But the problem is, every single person in this game is going to do something anti town at some point, and the game isn't played in a vaccum (sp? I am sure I got that one wrong)
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Post by NAF1138 on May 6, 2009 13:25:04 GMT -5
I agree with Pleonast. It's crazy to not talk during Night as a policy. If you have something to say you should say it, and not wait for... what exactly? To be killed at Night so you can't make your point? After the lynch we had a flurry of posts. sinjin said she thinks zlw is scum. I said I think zlw is Town. But the main thing is we got these thoughts out. If I waited until Day, I doubt I would have been as motivated. The downtime really takes you out of the moment. Or maybe I'd be distracted by who got killed (or who didn't get killed) and instead of all the discussion about zlw, we would have moved onto something else already. BTW, my new point (or maybe I already said this) about zlw, is that zlw stuck his neck out with the whole Inner Stickler thing. I know that Pleonast and sinjin think that this was fishing and only scum fish, but I look at it entirely differently. Scum had no reason to question Inner Stickler. There was nothing to be gained from such an action and quite a bit to lose. zlw was not getting a whole lot of heat until just after the Inner Stickler claim and that was because zlw was asking Inner Stickler questions. it's time to break out the "Scum wouldn't do that" missive. If any of you were scum, what would you have done in response to Inner Stickler's claim? Would you have stuck your neck out and asked questions? OR would you STFU and ride out what was going to happen next? I think STFU is the scum play here. Scum asking Inner Sticker questions is incredibly risky and yields little to no benefit. What is the scum motivation for doing such a thing? I can't think of anything. The fishing reason is a fiction to me. We like to think that scum would do such a thing, but really, it rarely if ever happens. Town is information deprived, scum are less so. Town is much more likely to "want more" information and therefore 'go fishing.' Furthermore, townies feel implicitly justified in asking for more information, while scum are more likely to be circumspect. I recall being a power role and it was TOWNIES who kept pestering me for more information (not quite role fishing as my role was public). Scum players were quite content to leave me alone. Give it up, I have been preaching this for 4 or 5 games in a row now. No one acutally wants to listen. (This is me saying +1 while still claiming credit for the original thought.) This I don't find to be as compelling. Why wouldn't scum act on their own. Just because they can Day talk doesn't mean that they will. Again, drawing on my experience as Day talk enabled scum, it is rare for me to get my team to talk with me during the Day in games where it's allowed. The general thought is usually "we should all just try to be townie as possible (see pollux's Apocolypse game, I think)" This isn't to say that I think ZLW is scum because of the above, but that it seems to be a null tell.
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Post by sinjin on May 6, 2009 13:37:31 GMT -5
Alternately sache, say you're the scum investigator (female anchor) and you know or suspect you have a counterpart (male anchor) in the town world. So the town investigator gets outed and you ask your little question...when there was no need at that point to do so. And w00t instant town cred. Note that zlw basically demanded that votes be taken off him immediately.
Further, zlw admits that it doesn't explicitly state that the other other investigator is town and IS has said nothing. I'm not out to lynch either one of them, btw. Like I said time will tell.
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Post by sachertorte on May 6, 2009 13:38:19 GMT -5
Give it up, I have been preaching this for 4 or 5 games in a row now. No one acutally wants to listen. (This is me saying +1 while still claiming credit for the original thought.) Fine. I'll just stop playing all together then and say nothing of importance all Day. Oh wait. You've already done that too.
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Post by Inner Stickler on May 6, 2009 13:42:05 GMT -5
Further, zlw admits that it doesn't explicitly state that the other other investigator is town and IS has said nothing. I'm not out to lynch either one of them, btw. Like I said time will tell. Well, I know that I'm town and while my PM doesn't say that the female anchor is town, there's twist on our roles that would not work if we were different alignments. So I'm inclined to believe that zlw is town as well.
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Post by sachertorte on May 6, 2009 13:44:13 GMT -5
Alternately sache, say you're the scum investigator (female anchor) and you know or suspect you have a counterpart (male anchor) in the town world. So the town investigator gets outed and you ask your little question...when there was no need at that point to do so. And w00t instant town cred. Note that zlw basically demanded that votes be taken off him immediately. Further, zlw admits that it doesn't explicitly state that the other other investigator is town and IS has said nothing. I'm not out to lynch either one of them, btw. Like I said time will tell. That's fine. It's certainly a plausible theory. I only think that my point of view is more likely to be the case. One of us is right and one of us is wrong. I certainly don't know that I'm right and you are wrong, I only think it. And you think the reverse. It's all out there for future use. (Oh, and demanding votes be taken of himself? Not my expectation of scum. Then again, I didn't expect scum to claim to be the messenger for Bad Horse either, so what do I know?)
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Post by Total Ullz on May 6, 2009 13:44:19 GMT -5
All right NAF, I agree, you were the best scum team of all time. The only reason we even got to lynch you was because MHaye parachuted in to save the day and you had those penalty points. I'm just getting soooooo tired of being on the losing team* I'm starting to channel zuma. Town absolutely lost the AC game. What, we had 3 townie power roles not claiming when under the lynch gun? We definitely deserved to lose that one. They did play well - I agree. But I still have to say that the best scum team of all time was in the "SDMB mafia" boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=490235That was truely amazing! (and - wow - Blaster Master can really BLAST )
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Post by NAF1138 on May 6, 2009 13:46:09 GMT -5
Give it up, I have been preaching this for 4 or 5 games in a row now. No one acutally wants to listen. (This is me saying +1 while still claiming credit for the original thought.) Fine. I'll just stop playing all together then and say nothing of importance all Day. Oh wait. You've already done that too. Hey man, I am trying to get into it but my time is genuinly limited for the next little bit. It's starting to free up, but by the time I got past the first hump I was already out of the flow of the game. But for the record, I was agreeing with you. It's not my fault that you steal what I am going to say before I say it. I fucking agree with you on everything except your last point. Maybe you want to talk to me about that bit? I can tell you that my suspicion of paul stems from the fake fight I had with him in the Alpha Centuri game and that his posts with sister ring the same to me here as they did there. But like I said when I posted it, that's metagamey as hell and no one like a metagamer. But beyond that I am swimming here and doing the best I can to keep up. So back off with the personal insults. We think about the game very similarly and so a lot of the time you have come along and made my point for me because you are able to pay more attention to the game than I am. But I don't want to just sit back and quote you with a +1 underneath it for the whole game. That gets boring. So sorry for the personal commentary.
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Post by Total Ullz on May 6, 2009 13:49:46 GMT -5
Give it up, I have been preaching this for 4 or 5 games in a row now. No one acutally wants to listen. (This is me saying +1 while still claiming credit for the original thought.) Fine. I'll just stop playing all together then and say nothing of importance all Day. Oh wait. You've already done that too. I don't think I have ever played with you before - but am I right to assume that a post like this is meant in the same way as the "Look at Reply 31"?
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Post by sinjin on May 6, 2009 13:52:22 GMT -5
Further, zlw admits that it doesn't explicitly state that the other other investigator is town and IS has said nothing. I'm not out to lynch either one of them, btw. Like I said time will tell. Well, I know that I'm town and while my PM doesn't say that the female anchor is town, there's twist on our roles that would not work if we were different alignments. So I'm inclined to believe that zlw is town as well. Well thank you for that IS.
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Post by sachertorte on May 6, 2009 13:58:37 GMT -5
Fine. I'll just stop playing all together then and say nothing of importance all Day. Oh wait. You've already done that too. Hey man, I am trying to get into it but my time is genuinly limited for the next little bit. It's starting to free up, but by the time I got past the first hump I was already out of the flow of the game. But for the record, I was agreeing with you. It's not my fault that you steal what I am going to say before I say it. I fucking agree with you on everything except your last point. Maybe you want to talk to me about that bit? I can tell you that my suspicion of paul stems from the fake fight I had with him in the Alpha Centuri game and that his posts with sister ring the same to me here as they did there. But like I said when I posted it, that's metagamey as hell and no one like a metagamer. But beyond that I am swimming here and doing the best I can to keep up. So back off with the personal insults. We think about the game very similarly and so a lot of the time you have come along and made my point for me because you are able to pay more attention to the game than I am. But I don't want to just sit back and quote you with a +1 underneath it for the whole game. That gets boring. So sorry for the personal commentary. What!? You tell me that no one wants to hear what I have to say, then get pissy with me for getting pissy with you?
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