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Day Two
May 8, 2009 11:39:54 GMT -5
Post by sachertorte on May 8, 2009 11:39:54 GMT -5
I guess the difference of opinion boils down to our expectation of whether or not the game has f-ed up roles or not. I play these games with a certain expectation that the moderator has looked at the games and made a minimal effort towards creating a fun and fair game. Sometimes things get off track, but usually not intentionally or blatantly so. When I review games for other people, the first thing I look for are broken roles. "balance" comes later.
Anyway, what storyteller is proposing is a scum role that wants to... needs to, be lynched. This is of course very counter to the structure of the game. From a game theory point of view it is 'game breaking.' We've already discussed Jesters and how they are stupid. Scum Jesters are even more stupid. Scum Jesters who are not nightkillable? 100% pure stupid.
A Bomb that is not nightkillable? Again poor game design. A Bomb that wants to be lynched and is not nightkillable? 100% stupid.
I realize there is hesitancy in doing something that someone is asking for but I see two cases:
1) Pleonast is pro-Town, therefore he speaks the truth and we should lynch him 2) Pleonast is anti-Town, therefore we should lynch him.
The idea that lynching an anti-Town element hurts the town should NEVER be a part of the game design; its just stupid. "Hey, good job, you did what you are supposed to do and lynched scum. Now you get punished!"
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Day Two
May 8, 2009 11:50:43 GMT -5
Post by NAF1138 on May 8, 2009 11:50:43 GMT -5
I guess the difference of opinion boils down to our expectation of whether or not the game has f-ed up roles or not. I play these games with a certain expectation that the moderator has looked at the games and made a minimal effort towards creating a fun and fair game. Sometimes things get off track, but usually not intentionally or blatantly so. When I review games for other people, the first thing I look for are broken roles. "balance" comes later. Anyway, what storyteller is proposing is a scum role that wants to... needs to, be lynched. This is of course very counter to the structure of the game. From a game theory point of view it is 'game breaking.' We've already discussed Jesters and how they are stupid. Scum Jesters are even more stupid. Scum Jesters who are not nightkillable? 100% pure stupid. A Bomb that is not nightkillable? Again poor game design. A Bomb that wants to be lynched and is not nightkillable? 100% stupid. I realize there is hesitancy in doing something that someone is asking for but I see two cases: 1) Pleonast is pro-Town, therefore he speaks the truth and we should lynch him 2) Pleonast is anti-Town, therefore we should lynch him. The idea that lynching an anti-Town element hurts the town should NEVER be a part of the game design; its just stupid. "Hey, good job, you did what you are supposed to do and lynched scum. Now you get punished!" And I don't think that FCoD put in any elements that will overtly screw over any one side like that. But you aren't going to keep people from being paranoid about it. How many games did we have in a row where the mod said "THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO CHANCE OF RECRUITMENT IN THIS GAME" only to have town wonder if someone was recurited by a super sneeky double secret mod trick. We (as a group) don't trust the mods. Fine, I have made peace with that. But even if you think that FCoD fucked with the game design like that, we still have to deal with Pleo in some way, and I can not believe that FCoD designed a game that could be won or lost on Day 1, or Day 2 or Day 3 for that matter. But as town if we are going to take risks, the time to take that risk is as early as possible. We generated a lot of information with yesterDays lynch, we caught scum at the same time (a rare thing) and are now in a bit of a lead with there being no Night Kill. I can not think of a better way to spend some of that lead than by taking the risk and killing Pleo. At worst it will cost us some of our lead and still remove this giant flashing neon sign that will eat up the rest of the game and continually distract us from doing anything. At best Pleo it telling the truth and it moves us further out front. I don't see the problem here.
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Day Two
May 8, 2009 11:51:52 GMT -5
Post by storyteller0910 on May 8, 2009 11:51:52 GMT -5
1) Pleonast is pro-Town, therefore he speaks the truth and we should lynch him Except if Pleonast speaks the truth and is pro-Town, then lynching him would be a mislynch and we should not lynch him. I understand your point, sach, and I hope you're right, but look: if Pleonast is lying - if he's Scum - then he is Scum who made a bizarre claim and outright asked to be lynched. What sort of Scum play would that be, if there was not something anti-Town that would happen at the lynch? And again, if he's telling the truth, why would we want to lynch him at all? My head hurts.
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Day Two
May 8, 2009 11:53:53 GMT -5
Post by storyteller0910 on May 8, 2009 11:53:53 GMT -5
At best Pleo it telling the truth and it moves us further out front. No. If Pleo is telling the truth it does not put us further in front; it costs us some of our lead.
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Day Two
May 8, 2009 11:54:45 GMT -5
Post by storyteller0910 on May 8, 2009 11:54:45 GMT -5
And - apologies for the triple post - I'm not sure I agree with NAF that lynching the guy who is jumping up and down screaming "lynch me!" qualifies as the "risky" play in this situation.
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Day Two
May 8, 2009 12:00:59 GMT -5
Post by NAF1138 on May 8, 2009 12:00:59 GMT -5
And - apologies for the triple post - I'm not sure I agree with NAF that lynching the guy who is jumping up and down screaming "lynch me!" qualifies as the "risky" play in this situation. I was trying to phase it from your perspective story. You think that lynching Pleo can hurt us, so therefore it is a risk to lynch Pleo. If Pleo is tellign the truth then it will put us further in front because it will prevent him from becoming scum at some point in time which is as good as catching scum because if we let him live until endgame then I guarantee at some point he will become scum. If he is telling the truth. If he isn't telling the truth then he is already scum and we let him live till endgame anyway? I am not sure what you are suggesting? Is it your belief that if we wait for a few Days there will be a better time to lynch him?
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Day Two
May 8, 2009 12:05:03 GMT -5
Post by storyteller0910 on May 8, 2009 12:05:03 GMT -5
Is it your belief that if we wait for a few Days there will be a better time to lynch him? Could be. I don't know. I don't know much. I'm still only halfway through Day One, frankly. Something stinks here, but maybe it's just my paranoia. That Batman game left me with permament PTSD.
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Day Two
May 8, 2009 12:12:01 GMT -5
Post by sachertorte on May 8, 2009 12:12:01 GMT -5
Pleonast has expressed the desire to preserve his win condition. I recall feeling similarly in Pleonast's Conspiracy game where I was really, really not liking the possibility of my being recruited, all with the added bonus of recruitment being secret.
Just as you can produce plausible scenarios where Pleonast is scum and wants to get lynched, it is trivially easy to imagine pro-Town roles for Pleonast to have that make him want to get lynched (some just as stupid as scum who want to get lynched).
Perhaps Pleonast has a power that gets activated on Lynch (again, counter to general design of the game, but no more stupid than scum who want to get lynched). Perhaps Pleonast knows he can be recruited and does not want this to happen. Bad for us, but plausible from Pleonast's point of view.
Yesterday I was a strong proponent of deferring Pleonast to Day Two to give Night Actors a chance to off Pleonast for us. And even so, with all the claims spilling out at the end of the Day, lynching Pleonast started to look more and more appealing yesterday. Pleonast at this point is a distraction as well. If we don't lynch Pleonast today we will debate him Tomorrow... We are going to lynch Pleonast. Scum aren't going to kill him regardless of his alignment. The question is when. Is there a compelling reason to think that lynching Pleonast on Day Two is worse than Lynching him on Day Six or Seven? I argued that Two is better than One since it provides the opportunity for a Night Kill. Can you supply a reason that Three or Four is better than Day Two?
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Day Two
May 8, 2009 12:14:55 GMT -5
Post by sinjin on May 8, 2009 12:14:55 GMT -5
I still say we kill him toDay. His claim yesterDay was bs. As was his suggestion that we give him one Night so he could possibly be saved from recruitment. He says he wasn't recruited but fails to mention anything about his recruitment guardian angel. How are we to ever know if he's telling the truth? ToDay he refuses to give anymore info from his role pm unless he's sure he's going to get lynched. Again more wifom bs.
He's a distraction and he's playing anti-town no matter what he says. I say we lynch him asap and get on with the game.
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Day Two
May 8, 2009 12:44:09 GMT -5
Post by Pleonast on May 8, 2009 12:44:09 GMT -5
You're expecting too much from me. It's too bad some of you weren't active YesterDay, so we're now forced to continue discussing me. I explained myself well in my initial claim post. Reread it.There's two possibilities. 1. I'm lying. I've already survived one Night. Are you going to keep hoping I wake up dead? How does it help the Town to let a liar keep living? Turn down your paranoia dial and turn up the rationality dial. 2. I'm telling the truth. You may think I'm being anti-Town, but you don't have the same information I have. We need to trust players to play their roles appropriately. That includes trusting me when I say I don't think it's in the Town's interest for me to reveal more about my role. What more is there to discuss? The player who has the most information about my role says I need to be lynched. Unless there's something else out there that changes the situation, that's what we have to go with.
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Day Two
May 8, 2009 13:10:17 GMT -5
Post by sachertorte on May 8, 2009 13:10:17 GMT -5
I will concede that Pleonast's willingness to provide his full PM when his lynch is inevitable, but refusal to provide his full PM Today are somewhat contradictory. The way I see it, Pleonast is afraid that showing his PM will help scum. That's fair enough, but if he wants to die Today, then why not show the PM immediately? The only thing I can think of is that the role PM will give Town some reason not to lynch Pleonast and he doesn't want that to happen. That is, he doesn't want to show the PM then end up not getting lynched.
Strange.
From my perspective, if Pleonast's role really is better to be lynched now, then the PM will reflect that and showing it will encourage the town to do what he wants. Keeping things from scum at this point is moot. He's already said he would reveal before death. Something doesn't add up there.
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Day Two
May 8, 2009 13:26:48 GMT -5
Post by storyteller0910 on May 8, 2009 13:26:48 GMT -5
1. I'm lying. I've already survived one Night. Are you going to keep hoping I wake up dead? How does it help the Town to let a liar keep living? Turn down your paranoia dial and turn up the rationality dial. Well, anything could happen. You could wake up dead. You have said that your Night kill protection is limited in some way; perhaps it will fail and a friendly Vig will deal with you. Perhaps you are flat out lying, and have either no Night kill protection or something like a one-shot protection. But say you don't. If you live until Day Four, you're still out there. We'll lynch you eventually. While lots of folks have poo-pooed the potential drawbacks to lynching you toDay that I have proposed, no one has yet offered a compelling drawback to waiting. Not when what you're saying doesn't make sense. See sachertorte's post, immediately below your own, for elaboration. Bah, whatever. Pleonast is trying to railroad us into lynching him toDay. He is trying to present it as the only reasonable option. I disagree with him, and I will not vote for him, at least, not without further information. ------ On another note, unvote Inner Stickler, as I have finished reading Day One.
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Day Two
May 8, 2009 13:27:59 GMT -5
Post by Pleonast on May 8, 2009 13:27:59 GMT -5
That is, he doesn't want to show the PM then end up not getting lynched. That is exactly why I don't want to show my PM too early. That upon showing it, the Town decides that the risk of me being recruited is low (and so don't lynch me immediately) while at the same time telling the scum exactly what they need to recruit me. That's not a good outcome for either me or the Town.
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Day Two
May 8, 2009 13:31:30 GMT -5
Post by NAF1138 on May 8, 2009 13:31:30 GMT -5
But say you don't. If you live until Day Four, you're still out there. We'll lynch you eventually. While lots of folks have poo-pooed the potential drawbacks to lynching you toDay that I have proposed, no one has yet offered a compelling drawback to waiting. While I agree that Pleo is playing shaddy, the drawback to waiting is that we might not always be in a position to potentially waste a lynch on a townie. I know you have not always agreed with me on this story, but the time to take out dead weight is as early in the game as possible. While we have the advantage. At the very least he is a distraction.
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Day Two
May 8, 2009 13:34:59 GMT -5
Post by storyteller0910 on May 8, 2009 13:34:59 GMT -5
While I agree that Pleo is playing shaddy, the drawback to waiting is that we might not always be in a position to potentially waste a lynch on a townie. I know you have not always agreed with me on this story, but the time to take out dead weight is as early in the game as possible. While we have the advantage. At the very least he is a distraction. I think where we disagree is that you (and sach, and evidently Pleo himself) seem to believe that a Pleonast lynch is absolutely inevitable. I don't agree. I think lynching someone who claims to be Townie because we believe him is profoundly foolish. Let's find someone we actually think is Scum, if we think Pleo is being honest, and see what the game brings with regard to Pleonast himself.
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Day Two
May 8, 2009 13:39:06 GMT -5
Post by sachertorte on May 8, 2009 13:39:06 GMT -5
Pleonast, if showing your PM will convince the Town not to lynch you, then you are giving us REASONS NOT TO LYNCH YOU. I can appreciate that allowing scum to recruit you is bad for you. But allowing scum to recruit you isn't necessarily bad for Town since we are going to lynch you anyway. Whether we lynch you before you are recruited or after is of little consequence to the Town.
Now I am open to the idea that allowing you to be recruited is shitty, but it's not wholly detrimental to the Town.
storyteller. We spent a good part of Day One talking about Pleonast and arguing about Pleonast, and arguing about not arguing about Pleonast. I'm not sure if I even want Pleonast around on future Days simply from a 'I want to have fun' point of view. In other words, hello distraction.
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Day Two
May 8, 2009 13:40:07 GMT -5
Post by storyteller0910 on May 8, 2009 13:40:07 GMT -5
storyteller. We spent a good part of Day One talking about Pleonast and arguing about Pleonast, and arguing about not arguing about Pleonast. I'm not sure if I even want Pleonast around on future Days simply from a 'I want to have fun' point of view. In other words, hello distraction. Fair enough.
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Day Two
May 8, 2009 13:41:31 GMT -5
Post by NAF1138 on May 8, 2009 13:41:31 GMT -5
I think where we disagree is that you (and sach, and evidently Pleo himself) seem to believe that a Pleonast lynch is absolutely inevitable. I don't agree. I think we can agree on this. ;D I do think it is inevitable, because I sure don't want someone who I can't trust hasn't been recruited alive at endgame and I don't see him getting NKd any time soon. The scum have no reason to and if our vig could have I assume he would have. I think I made my position known and it is clarified. Any further arguing on my part is just going to be for the sake of arguing and I haven't gotten enough sleep recently for that to be fun right now. I also agree that we should still be trying to find scum, so that's what I am going back to.
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Day Two
May 8, 2009 14:06:21 GMT -5
Post by sachertorte on May 8, 2009 14:06:21 GMT -5
I think I get what storyteller is saying. There is the non-zero possibility that we keep Pleonast around, scum don't manage to recruit him (because we keep threatening to kill him) and we manage to lynch all the other scum. In that case, we will win without having to lynch Pleonast. The problem is, I don't see us being able to lay off of Pleonast to that conclusion. So I would say possible, but extremely unlikely.
Also the threat of recruitment makes leaving Pleonast alive quite risky. Even though we are constantly threatening to lynch Pleonast, there is a point in time where a recruitment can win the game for scum while a NK will not. For example, let's pretend there are two scum and four town (including Pleonast) left going into night. If scum NK someone, dawn will yield two scum and three town and the game continues. However if scum manage to recruit* Pleonast, then the game will be 3 scum and 3 town and scum will win.
*Again I'm falling into the trap of traditional recruitment mechanisms, which I don't actually think is the case for this game, but you get the point.
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Day Two
May 8, 2009 14:42:34 GMT -5
Post by sinjin on May 8, 2009 14:42:34 GMT -5
How do we know Pleo wasn't recruited last night? How will we know he isn't recruited toNight? night three?, night 4...... What if he has a power that is beneficial to scum if he's recruited? Maybe a death ray good for an extra kill or a freeze ray good for roleblocking? What exactly do we gain by keeping him alive?
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Day Two
May 8, 2009 14:50:30 GMT -5
Post by zlw on May 8, 2009 14:50:30 GMT -5
Maybe ELE had to choose between a kill or recruit last night.... we had no kill... Not sure on gameplay mechanics if that is how something would work though.
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Total Ullz
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Day Two
May 8, 2009 16:15:39 GMT -5
Post by Total Ullz on May 8, 2009 16:15:39 GMT -5
I'm not going to make a full claim until my lynch is inevitable. The Town has nothing to gain by me revealing before then. Either lynch me or not, I claimed as early as possible to avoid too-long discussion about me. WAIT! What??? "The Town has nothing to gain by me revealing before then"?? And you get to say what Town can gain from? I kind of like to get the infomations and then make up my mind... And then you have the "I'm not going to make a full claim until my lynch is inevitable" - yeah, rigth! You didn't play on FB did you? A lynch is never "inevitable" until Night. So you're saying: - you have stuff to say - but you'll not say it - you have to be lynched - but will not say why BUT: You will claim last minute and make it all more easy for scum to deside who to lynch if Town panics. What part of this made you think you were helping to "avoid too-long discussion about me"
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Day Two
May 8, 2009 16:37:00 GMT -5
Post by Pleonast on May 8, 2009 16:37:00 GMT -5
I'm not going to make a full claim until my lynch is inevitable. The Town has nothing to gain by me revealing before then. Either lynch me or not, I claimed as early as possible to avoid too-long discussion about me. WAIT! What??? "The Town has nothing to gain by me revealing before then"?? And you get to say what Town can gain from? I kind of like to get the infomations and then make up my mind... And then you have the "I'm not going to make a full claim until my lynch is inevitable" - yeah, rigth! You didn't play on FB did you? A lynch is never "inevitable" until Night. So you're saying: - you have stuff to say - but you'll not say it - you have to be lynched - but will not say why BUT: You will claim last minute and make it all more easy for scum to deside who to lynch if Town panics. What part of this made you think you were helping to "avoid too-long discussion about me" Yes, I do get decide which information about my role is useful to the Town. I revealed everything that was clearly more useful to the Town than to scum. Everything else I did not. There was a reason I suggested everyone vote for someone else, while indicating in a different color whether they wanted to lynch me. I'm trying to make it clear exactly what my position is, but players seem to want to nitpick instead of making a decision. But it's not going to work--I want to be lynched and I'm not going to be Night-killed, and so neither the Town nor scum have leverage over me. Let's make this simple: I'm not going to respond to any further posts about me.I'm going to go back over the previous threads. Our Day One lynch needs to analyzed more. On preview: I'm not sure who "FB" is.
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Day Two
May 8, 2009 17:02:50 GMT -5
Post by Inner Stickler on May 8, 2009 17:02:50 GMT -5
Facebook.
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Day Two
May 8, 2009 18:15:17 GMT -5
Post by sinjin on May 8, 2009 18:15:17 GMT -5
Ok, I went back and looked at the rules, again, becasue Pleo is pushing us to go to DEFCON 1 before he reveals his magic bag (role pm). This would invoke rule #9:
This is completely anti-town. If for some reason we read his role pm and decide he should not die, because we've all collectively lost our minds, we would have only 12 hours to change our votes. There is absolutely no pro-town reason I can think of for him to desire this situation.
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Day Two
May 8, 2009 18:57:37 GMT -5
Post by KidVermicious on May 8, 2009 18:57:37 GMT -5
This is getting a little hairball up in here.
Vote: Pleo
Thats where I stand. Either he's telling the truth, in which case we should not be second guessing him, or he's lying, in which case we should be lynching him. There's no third option here... there's no way to evaluate the likelihood of vote-buffing or jestering or whathaveyou. Lets move on.
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RoOsh
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Day Two
May 8, 2009 20:04:32 GMT -5
Post by RoOsh on May 8, 2009 20:04:32 GMT -5
Pleonast, you're up to something.
There was a 3rd option for you the whole time besides Get lynched or get night killed.
This game has an out- You could choose to be mod killed w/in 2 Days. Of course you didn't mention that Day 1, and you've already been talking quite a Bit for Day 2. But that was always a possibility- you could have just kept your mouth shut and suicided yourself out of the game.
I REALLY don't like your strategy of play here. You're FORCING the town into wanting to lynch you, OR you're forcing us to keep you around. Both of which you're being coy about by saying you want to be lynched... but you might have information that would make us change our minds.
If that was the CASE THEN WHY DID YOU SPEAK UP IN THE FIRST PLACE?
You're playing a VERY ANTI-TOWN and very SELFISH game right now. "You wanna win with the town" Oh boo fucking hoo. Cry me a River with that junk- i think you're playing us and I'm definitely worried about lynching you because it's exactly what you SEEM to want for your own selfish reasons. You seem to think the town can afford to take a mislynch and then STILL win the game afterward even though we'd have wasted a Day dealing with you. -The only nice thing is that last night we didn't have a kill at least, so if we did want to waste our time dealing with you, then we have that chance right now. Of course, if you're completely WRONG about your role and the ideas about being recruited (especially since you said you haven't even SEEN the shows so you don't know the canon), then you've basically wasted the Town's time for a Day. I don't see how You could even THINK that's a good idea, unless you REALLY believe yourself to be recruitable. That's why this whole "oh but you might change your minds thing" is REALLY fishy.
If we choose to lynch you, I think we should do it, but we don't HAVE to force ourselves into a 12 hour countdown. That's only if a majority of Votes do that. We can still just lynch pleo if only 5 people vote for him to minimize the damage and such. And in case if his role DOES have some funky mechanism that CAN hurt/recruit a player that votes for him, then we can minimize the damage there as well. We could just agree as a town to have 3 people selected at the end of the Day to vote for the bastard if we need to or something and no one else has to vote for him so that way his risk of tricky shit is minimized.
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Day Two
May 8, 2009 20:08:56 GMT -5
Post by RoOsh on May 8, 2009 20:08:56 GMT -5
Refuses to Vote Pleo until he gives us a full claim so we can all judge for ourselves how dangerous he supposedly is, and reserves the right to still possibly doubt the claim if it looks fishy. I like this idea and agree it'd be nice. But the selfish bastard is being coy about this garbage. Honestly, this issue is going to happen EVERY Day we keep you alive now, Pleo. What's the point of trying to discuss new issues if you're the default lynch for toDay? How can you think ANY of this is possibly helpful to the town, is it really your reasoning of "I really really wanna win with the town, even if it means the town has to make 2-3 days worth of fuckups, because I think you guys will still come out on top! Go Team!" I'll volunteer to be one of the 3-4 people at the end of the Day to vote for the bastard. As I'm perfectly fine with getting this junk over with. Vote Pleonast.
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Day Two
May 8, 2009 20:13:41 GMT -5
Post by RoOsh on May 8, 2009 20:13:41 GMT -5
- Someone also mentioned the possibility of recruitment, which is also possible, but I have my doubts due to the "game mechanism that some might consider to be recruitment" phrasing. If scum explicitly choose someone to recruit in lieu of killing, then I would call that flat out recruitment, not something some might consider recruitment. - I think it is most likely that we have a protective role and that role succeeded in protecting. I guess you and I differ on how we feel recruitment is going to work- I explained my thoughts on Day 1. I think recruitment can be "not recruitment" if it's just basically done from the start, as the only issues with it are some players who REALLY don't like having to change sides halfway through the game or at the end. If you fix that mechanism, then it's not really a complaint, and you can say it's "not recruitment' as it may be a 1-2 time thing that applies to a specific group or person and so it becomes a game mechanism. But I still feel it's plausibly something scum if they're recruiting would have to do during their actions. Like in Blade Runner, I don't consider that recruitment. Dotchan was the Godfather, but she didn't know it, but all the scum knew. All we had to do was spend one night to target her, and we could recruit her during the Game, which we didn't do until very late in so that way she wouldn't act so scummy because she felt she was totally town the whole time. Same may consider that "recruitment" but I'd say that was just a role mechanism- ONE SPECIFIC role had that ability, so it gets around the whole "well it could be any player who's on one side, and then suddenly switches sides" issue because it's fixed and containable. So I guess we'll have to disagree on how we think recruitment works in here.
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Day Two
May 8, 2009 20:14:59 GMT -5
Post by RoOsh on May 8, 2009 20:14:59 GMT -5
Pleonast has claimed that he was on the Town side, in post #25. Why would an investigator get a non-Town return on him?Even I can think that one through Story- he could be a Miller. As in pro-town role blocker, but investigates scum. That sorta thing.
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