RoOsh
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Day Two
May 8, 2009 20:23:59 GMT -5
Post by RoOsh on May 8, 2009 20:23:59 GMT -5
The idea that lynching an anti-Town element hurts the town should NEVER be a part of the game design; its just stupid. "Hey, good job, you did what you are supposed to do and lynched scum. Now you get punished!" See I could see a role like that working actually though. If it was modified a bit. Story mentioned it in his post- a player who had a fixed time to live or something in exchange for a power. In BladeRunner- I was an Assassin Scum. I had the ability at any point to make an unblockable extra Night Kill. The Problem? I would then automatically die in the next two Days at Dusk. So in that one, I used my ability, then spent the rest of the two days getting AS MUCH HEAT as I could claiming doctor, investigator, all sorts of things because I wanted the town to ONLY focus on one thing- which was Me. And not any of my fellow scum at the time ( Dotchan I think was the only one left at that point). Also if you note, he hasn't said he's unNightkillable, he said he's resistant to Night Kills I believe. So he may not be the uber-ramped up role that he seems to be. But since he's holding out on his magic bag, we can't really assess that issue. Plus there could be a role out there who's job may be solely to go and find another role and kill it or that sort of an issue. Like the Freddy Vs. Jason minigame that was in Evil Dead Mafia. So there ARE tons of ways of making it work or not work, don't let your belief that a game MUST be fair and "fun" for YOUR style of play dictate what you think must or must not be in the game. Batman was a fun and enjoyable game for many, but there were a TON OF HOLES In that game- I had a mason that I basically fed information to at Night as a Mod, and I had another player who basically would win if he could screw over his SK partner, and one who could almost win if he just made the town give a full name claim at any point. That's an example of a terrible balanced game that you'd say wouldn't work and all, but it was fun and still managed to pull itself through the kinks. So don't just assume that EVERYTHING here's gotta work, we could have some ridiculously weird and odd role or mechanism in here, just well... because the Mod felt like being a Gastard.
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Natlaw
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Post by Natlaw on May 9, 2009 5:34:10 GMT -5
I have posted significantly less. In part because I've been throwing magic bags all over the place in the games I'm alive in on SDMB and Giraffe. Added to that the end of the School year crap and paperwork we have to do, and the fact that this site is blocked at work because our filter scans the pages and decides it's pornographic. (to be fair, that happened to the sign p thread of the Total/Tabby game on Giraffe too. In any case, you guys are also much better players than the ones in those games. I don't have as much to add or as much to get upset by. Ok, noted. Though I'm not sure why you posted about the National Archives of Romania. I did check what else you posted about so far: Night Zero - pointing out to Sister Coyote that scum can Day talk. Day One - throwing out possible vigilante types and scum roles - voting Pollux, because he argued against lynching Pleonast and because Pollux made a soft claim - finding the Groupie role useless and that them not knowing alignments nullifies their Pro-towniness So quick question: did your opinion of the groupies change after Almost Humans confirm? My thoughts: - not masons, so lynching one does not confirm the other - if both town and replacing a mason-group, it seems they needed to be toned down for balance reasons - if both scum, they scum probably knew Groupie where not town roles so they wouldn't get counter claimed. It seems very unlikely to me. I can see a scum mason group by design, but then why not claim to know alignment? So if one turns up scum, I would give some town points to the other. - if one scum and one town, then not knowing alignment makes more sense. If Pollux scum, it seems a sort of scum power role: claim and get a townie to confirm (except normal masons are normally not lynched unless counter claimed). If Almost Human scum, she confirmed to gain town credit. But then her vote for Sister Coyote makes no sense. On the Pleonast situation: vote PleonastI have no vote-if-not-voting-Pleonast yet, but see no reason to vote in Pleonast purple. As I understand him (if truthful), he intends to post his role PM one minute before Dusk, just in case it has some clue for town besides his death info from the mod.
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Post by Almost Human on May 9, 2009 6:56:26 GMT -5
I have to say that I'm getting flashbacks from the T2 game. Going from memory here. but from what I can remember, we knew there was a scum jester who could recruit on being lynched as long as there were a certain number of players still living.
We did a mass roleclaim early on in that game. Two people claimed the same role (NAF and someone else - I forget who). And we decided to lynch from the vanilla pool as we thought it most likely the jester was one of the two claiming a power role so didn't want to lynch there.
We voted the scummiest vanilla and lo and behold, he was the jester and recruited zeriel. In hindsight it was pretty obvious as he acted very very scummy.
Like in this game, people were saying we should get the votes over and done with. Like in this game a couple of players argued against it (in the last game it was story and santo IIRC) but we went ahead anyway.
I'm not suggesting that's the mechanism that's being used this game but I'm suspicious of Pleo for wanting to be lynched while providing nothing to support that other than a vague possibility of recruitment at some uncertain time.
He's said he has some invulnerability to night kills. He's said an investigation will give an uncertain result. He's said he thinks he might be recruitable but he's not sure. And yet he refuses to give his pm.
The only town reason I can think of for this is if he's somehow vulnerable during the Day so wants to wait till later on and when he's sure he'll be lynched.
Mind you, I can't see a scum reason for not posting a pm either - he should have got one written up by now. Unless he just wants to confuse us enough that we get fed up and vote for him for being a distraction. And that seems to be working.
So, yeah, I don't think I'll be voting for him toDay unless new evidence comes along.
Will post later with who I'd rather see on the block.
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Post by special on May 9, 2009 9:06:25 GMT -5
So quick question: did your opinion of the groupies change after Almost Humans confirm? No, my opinion of the groupies hasn't changed. I think it may just be a red herring thrown in by our mod. They know each other's roles. That's great. The only way that could come into play is if one of them fake claimed, the other could call them on it. - if both scum, they scum probably knew Groupie where not town roles so they wouldn't get counter claimed. It seems very unlikely to me. I can see a scum mason group by design, but then why not claim to know alignment? So if one turns up scum, I would give some town points to the other. If they are both Scum, then it makes sens to not claim to know alignment. This way, they don't have to press for the lynch of the other, and if the other turns up Scum, the survivor can say, "well, I didn't know his alignment"
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RoOsh
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Day Two
May 9, 2009 10:00:41 GMT -5
Post by RoOsh on May 9, 2009 10:00:41 GMT -5
Going from memory here. but from what I can remember, we knew there was a scum jester who could recruit on being lynched as long as there were a certain number of players still living. Could he recruit anyone or just the people voting for him? Because that's a pretty powerful role. Kudos to whoever thought that one up.
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Day Two
May 9, 2009 12:57:35 GMT -5
Post by The Real FCOD on May 9, 2009 12:57:35 GMT -5
Vote count:
Pleonast (3) - KidV, Roosh, Natlaw
--FCOD
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RoOsh
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Day Two
May 9, 2009 19:05:46 GMT -5
Post by RoOsh on May 9, 2009 19:05:46 GMT -5
Yeah... okay. Having the weekends be Night might have been a good idea....
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Day Two
May 9, 2009 22:18:44 GMT -5
Post by The Real FCOD on May 9, 2009 22:18:44 GMT -5
All right. If enough people want to, I will extend Day Two to end on Thursday, and then Night Two will end on Saturday. Then we'll have a Thursday day end and a Saturday night end for the rest of the game.
--FCOD
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Day Two
May 9, 2009 22:24:37 GMT -5
Post by KidVermicious on May 9, 2009 22:24:37 GMT -5
All right. If enough people want to, I will extend Day Two to end on Thursday, and then Night Two will end on Saturday. Then we'll have a Thursday day end and a Saturday night end for the rest of the game. --FCOD I'm in favor of this.
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Day Two
May 9, 2009 22:38:09 GMT -5
Post by special on May 9, 2009 22:38:09 GMT -5
All right. If enough people want to, I will extend Day Two to end on Thursday, and then Night Two will end on Saturday. Then we'll have a Thursday day end and a Saturday night end for the rest of the game. --FCOD I'm in favor of this. +1
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Gir!
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Day Two
May 9, 2009 22:43:14 GMT -5
Post by Gir! on May 9, 2009 22:43:14 GMT -5
Extended Day would be great!
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Day Two
May 10, 2009 0:27:46 GMT -5
Post by Inner Stickler on May 10, 2009 0:27:46 GMT -5
An extra helping of Day, please.
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RoOsh
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Day Two
May 10, 2009 3:38:31 GMT -5
Post by RoOsh on May 10, 2009 3:38:31 GMT -5
kool with me
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Merestil Haye
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Day Two
May 10, 2009 6:34:22 GMT -5
Post by Merestil Haye on May 10, 2009 6:34:22 GMT -5
It will cause me a little problem, but nothing I can't cope with. (The Ragnarok game's Dusk is less than 24 hours after the propsed end time.)
Second reading is in progress, but slow. I did take a few minutes to watch the blog again last night though.
More when I've finished Second Reading.
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Natlaw
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Day Two
May 10, 2009 10:13:03 GMT -5
Post by Natlaw on May 10, 2009 10:13:03 GMT -5
Extending the Day is fine with me. Would it happen again if a Day or Night is cut short or are those rules moot now?On reading, the (purple) vote count on Pleonast is: Voted (3): KidVermicious, Roosh, Natlaw Support lynch (2): sachertorte (can't vote), sinjin Don't lynch (3): Pollux, Storyteller, Almost Human Detectives: One has results the other doesn't, does that make sense given your ruleset. Note I'm not asking you to spell out your rule set just asking if you think it makes sense. You think you're on the same team because of how your power works. Is it possible to see it working even if the other guy is not of your alignment or is it right out impossible? Yes, it would work if we were different alignments but the likelihood of it happening would be much lower. The first question wasn't answered: -Was the no result on NAF1138 expected (do you have a failure rate) or does it indicate some sort of block or something funny about NAF? -How reliable in the investigation of sinjin (reason to believe you are paranoid or some such)? That is excluding the possibility of a Godfather or redirect (not sure if you get notified on a redirect or not).
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Day Two
May 10, 2009 11:38:57 GMT -5
Post by Pollux Oil on May 10, 2009 11:38:57 GMT -5
Well, even though it's tacky, I'm basically going to +1 everything that storyteller said. He explained what I think on the Pleonast matter better than I ever could. A few specific responses: I'm so confused by this. So we have a game where getting killed generally hurts your team, and you are suspicious of someone who is asking to get killed? What's the logic? Say killing Pleonast results in something bad happening to the Town, how is this to be avoided? If Pleonast is anti-Town and killing him creates an anti-Town effect, then what are we to do? We have to kill him at some point right? We already tried to give a night killer the opportunity and that didn't work out, so what do you propose? Why do you not want to kill Pleonast? And if we don't kill Pleonast, what do you think we should do with him. I don't get it. Basically, he definitely wants us to lynch him toDay. While if he's scum, having to lynch/kill him is unavoidable for town to win, why would we do exactly what scum wants us to do? He wants everybody to vote for him. What if he's a scum bomb that can choose to take somebody with him when he gets lynched? So if Inner Stickler/zlw vote for Pleonast and he dies, then he can kill a (supposed) investigator without having to worry about a doctor protection. I'm not going to make a full claim until my lynch is inevitable. The Town has nothing to gain by me revealing before then. Either lynch me or not, I claimed as early as possible to avoid too-long discussion about me. It's crap like this that makes me not want to lynch him. First of all, he hasn't claimed at all. We have a vague idea of what he is and what's going on with his role, but nothing concrete. He hasn't even give us his role name yet. And yet, he's decided he's not going to tell us anything. Even if everybody says "let's not kill him until we know exactly what he is" he's still just going to go "nope, if you're not going to lynch me I'm not telling you what I am." Even though he's telling us to go talk about other things, his continual air of mystery is going to continue to propogate discussion about him whether or not he chooses to respond. If his plan is to frustrate people into lynching him, it might just work. <snip>A Bomb that is not nightkillable? Again poor game design. A Bomb that wants to be lynched and is not nightkillable? 100% stupid.<snip> We only have his word he's not Nightkillable. Which, I mean, since I'm not particularly trusting of anything else he says I don't see why I would believe that. We (as a group) don't trust the mods. Fine, I have made peace with that. But even if you think that FCoD fucked with the game design like that, we still have to deal with Pleo in some way, and I can not believe that FCoD designed a game that could be won or lost on Day 1, or Day 2 or Day 3 for that matter. The SSB Mafia game kind of made me a bit more cynical about game set-ups. That game was almost academic for scum after Day 3 I believe. We have no idea what kind of weird roles have gone into this game. It might be too much paranoia, but I think it's better than not enough paranoia.
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Day Two
May 10, 2009 11:39:57 GMT -5
Post by Pollux Oil on May 10, 2009 11:39:57 GMT -5
Oh, and I'm cool with the extended Day.
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Day Two
May 10, 2009 12:06:10 GMT -5
Post by Inner Stickler on May 10, 2009 12:06:10 GMT -5
Natlaw, I have no reason to believe that the town result I got on sinjin is false. There was no indication in my PMs. I do not know why zlw got no result on NAF.
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Total Ullz
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Day Two
May 10, 2009 13:19:41 GMT -5
Post by Total Ullz on May 10, 2009 13:19:41 GMT -5
On reading, the (purple) vote count on Pleonast is: Voted (3): KidVermicious, Roosh, Natlaw Support lynch (2): sachertorte (can't vote), sinjin Don't lynch (3): Pollux, Storyteller, Almost Human
Put me on the "Don't lynch" toDay list. I want to make up my own mind - and for him to say he'll not answer anymore questions or post anymore information is so wrong IMO that I can't see the guy being truthful. I have no idea what kind of game he's playing - but it ain't pro-town mafia! A bit more time to this Day would be very nice
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RoOsh
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Day Two
May 10, 2009 13:52:44 GMT -5
Post by RoOsh on May 10, 2009 13:52:44 GMT -5
Natlaw, I have no reason to believe that the town result I got on sinjin is false. There was no indication in my PMs. I do not know why zlw got no result on NAF. Sticky... I hope you'd entertain the thoughts of a GODFATHER being in the game, so even with every town result you get, you may get the idea they're town, but that shouldn't clear them 100% either.
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RoOsh
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Day Two
May 10, 2009 14:00:30 GMT -5
Post by RoOsh on May 10, 2009 14:00:30 GMT -5
Basically, he definitely wants us to lynch him toDay. While if he's scum, having to lynch/kill him is unavoidable for town to win, why would we do exactly what scum wants us to do? He wants everybody to vote for him. What if he's a scum bomb that can choose to take somebody with him when he gets lynched? So if Inner Stickler/zlw vote for Pleonast and he dies, then he can kill a (supposed) investigator without having to worry about a doctor protection. This is my feeling on the matter actually, but I'm trying to see how to minimize the casualty. Basically he's not going to reveal info unless he gets close to lynching. If no one else votes for other people, we can lynch the guy with 2-3 votes- and so if his powers are limited to those who vote for him, then obviously we get the claimed power roles NOT voting for him. And just leave him with the votes he has until the bastard gives up more information. Because right now, he's grinding this town to a halt with this crap. Either we have to collectively ignore him the rest of the game (which I REALLY don't like), or we have to get him to reveal his information and then Die). And I still don't like the fact that he wants us as a Town to lynch him. I'd MUCH rather he have just (if he's playing so fucking selfish) just let himself get smited by the gods by shutting up for two days. And there we can then see his behavior- if he does start talking, then we know he's not just trying to kill himself but actually trying to stay alive- which again though would lead us to the dilemma of how to lynch him. Which is why I think the only safe idea I could think of is the minimalist lynch of him, and that way we have a group of people who are affected and that's that. Else, I'd say keep him alive and PRAY we have a Vig or SOMETHING else out there, cuz this selfish fucker is not probably not going to get night killed by the scum anytime soon and if he's scum... well, I'd rather kill him now and suffer rather than feel like an idiot about letting him live for a few weeks and basically taunt us from right under our noses. How else can we deal with Pleo? I don't want to do what he says, and pretty much feel he's NOT Town with this whole magic bag attitude, all justified by the sense that he wants the Town to win. I think it's bullshit, but how do we best deal with it? If we as a group decide to ignore him and just pray he magically goes away, then fine, but then I really don't look forwards to this shit happening every damn day.
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Day Two
May 10, 2009 14:21:16 GMT -5
Post by KidVermicious on May 10, 2009 14:21:16 GMT -5
This is going to sound horrible, but regardless of his alignment, he's killing us. Not him, I mean, so much as his claim and the controversy it's generated. I say again, he's telling the truth, in which case we trust him and lynch him per his request, or he's lying, in which case we lynch him anyway.
Any game design that punishes bad play is flawed, and it's bad play to not lynch liars.
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Day Two
May 10, 2009 14:32:28 GMT -5
Post by Inner Stickler on May 10, 2009 14:32:28 GMT -5
Sticky... I hope you'd entertain the thoughts of a GODFATHER being in the game, so even with every town result you get, you may get the idea they're town, but that shouldn't clear them 100% either. I'm well aware of that. If Bad Horse doesn't scream Godfather, I don't know what does. The only sure response I'm looking for is scum.
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Day Two
May 10, 2009 18:13:45 GMT -5
Post by MiteyMouse on May 10, 2009 18:13:45 GMT -5
I want to make up my own mind - and for him to say he'll not answer anymore questions or post anymore information is so wrong IMO that I can't see the guy being truthful. I have no idea what kind of game he's playing - but it ain't pro-town mafia! I agree with this! It seems like we just keep rehashing the Pleo thing (I know, this isn't helping...hehehe) I'm going to go and reread and be back soon. I'm so sorry I've been MIA...I'm back now though!
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Day Two
May 10, 2009 19:23:04 GMT -5
Post by sachertorte on May 10, 2009 19:23:04 GMT -5
What if he's a scum bomb that can choose to take somebody with him when he gets lynched? And what if he is? What do you plan to do about it? Not lynch him... ever? If Pleonast is a scum bomb, he still needs to die. Well, there is also the fact that he's not dead. Lets say Pleonast is nightkillable. What now? He has already survived one night, a night where if Pleonast has a chance to die at Night a Vigilante (if we have one) took at shot at Pleonast. Do you feel that Pleonast will drop dead during the Night sometime? If so, I'm all for that, but I don't have reason to think that will happen. I strongly feel we should kill Pleonast and move on. If there is some penalty for killing scum, then well, I have differences in opinion on the wisdom of such a setup. And if there is a penalty for killing scum, then the penalty is unavoidable since we must kill all scum to win. The only valid reason I see for waiting on Pleonast is the possibility that 'the penalty' is on a timer. The problem with this is that we have no idea if there is a timer at all or how long that timer is. I might also buy into the idea that we might need to give the theoretical Vig an additional night to off Pleonast if he is merely 'resistant' rather than 'immune.' But there has to be some limit to this line of reasoning. For those that advocate NOT killing Pleonast. What the hell do you propose we DO with him? You've been saying don't lynch him, but what exactly is the long term plan? Get distracted by Pleonast every Day until the game ends? Wait until we think we are at lynch or lose and roll the dice? What exactly is the plan and reasoning? Do you want to lynch him later? Day Three? Four? Seven? Never lynch him? What? You can't just say, don't lynch him Today and not tell us what the longer term plan is. So far, all I see is "We shouldn't lynch Pleonast because that's what he wants us to do," and "We shouldn't lynch Pleonast because it might be a mistake."
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Day Two
May 10, 2009 19:22:31 GMT -5
Post by sinjin on May 10, 2009 19:22:31 GMT -5
The sum total of MM posts so far:
And your subsequent thoughts on this are???.....
Ok everyone has off days.
Waiting for thoughts......
And, your thoughts are.........
Oh dear a lot of people claimed. But I still don't have anything to say. I'm still not sure on Pleo, going to reread and get back to you eventually with an opinion.......
Again, I'm a-gonna re-read and get back to you with an opinion soon. When exactly?
Vote: Mitey Mouse for saying absolutely nothing over a period of almost two weeks.
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Day Two
May 10, 2009 19:35:52 GMT -5
Post by sinjin on May 10, 2009 19:35:52 GMT -5
FTR I agree with everything sachertorte said in the above post. I prefer to lynch Pleo today as I've said repeatedly. My vote for MM is my second choice right now. I think the whole keep Pleo alive because he wants to be lynched meme is dumb. "Oh, he might be scum with ulterior motives"; So what? lynch him. "Oh, he might be third party"; I don't care, lynch him. "Oh, he might really be town and he's got our best interests at heart": Bite me, lynch him. IMHO.
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Day Two
May 10, 2009 21:48:41 GMT -5
Post by Pollux Oil on May 10, 2009 21:48:41 GMT -5
And what if he is? What do you plan to do about it? Not lynch him... ever? If Pleonast is a scum bomb, he still needs to die. I know that, but what better way to get his pick of who to off than telling everybody he NEEDS to die? If everybody votes him, he can kill whoever he wants. Well, there is also the fact that he's not dead. Lets say Pleonast is nightkillable. What now? He has already survived one night, a night where if Pleonast has a chance to die at Night a Vigilante (if we have one) took at shot at Pleonast. Do you feel that Pleonast will drop dead during the Night sometime? If so, I'm all for that, but I don't have reason to think that will happen. Because he survived one Night? Really? That's just one data point. Maybe the scum had a one-shot Night protect and used it on him. It's elaborate but possible. For those that advocate NOT killing Pleonast. What the hell do you propose we DO with him? You've been saying don't lynch him, but what exactly is the long term plan? Get distracted by Pleonast every Day until the game ends? Wait until we think we are at lynch or lose and roll the dice? What exactly is the plan and reasoning? Do you want to lynch him later? Day Three? Four? Seven? Never lynch him? What? You can't just say, don't lynch him Today and not tell us what the longer term plan is. I believe I outlined what I thought on Day One, but I'll do it again. If we are to believe Pleonast, he's Town right now. If he gets recruited, he'll start acting different according to him. Therefore, we lynch him when he starts acting different. At the very least, we don't lynch him toDay because that's what he wants. If you want to lynch him tomorrow, fine, I'll stop griping. I mean, I know Pleonast is a good player. But let's take a look: If we had followed his advice on Day One, we would have lynched me (Town, but you all don't know that for sure yet) vs. Sister Coyote, who turned up scum. Now, everybody didn't follow Pleonast for the lynch yesterDay. Why should we follow him simply on his word toDay? Furthermore, another gripe I'd like to bring up. Pleonast says he doesn't want to reveal his role PM because it'll give away exactly what the scum need to do to recruit him. Because of the way he's worded that, why the hell is he worried about recruitment in the first place? Clearly it's not just "we point our finger at Pleonast and recruit him." There's some sort of chain of events that need to happen to activate him. So far, all I see is "We shouldn't lynch Pleonast because that's what he wants us to do," and "We shouldn't lynch Pleonast because it might be a mistake." And as far as I'm concerned, I see the major argument for lynching Pleonast toDay as "I'm tired of this shit, let's just get this over with since we don't have another choice." But, whatever. I'm going to go ahead and agree that at this point, the Pleonast discussion is becoming a distraction. My opinion on the matter is clear, and if I haven't persuaded any of the die-hard Pleonast-lynchers to switch positions at this point, I'm just going to be butting my head against a brick wall. And I assume some of you feel the same way about me. With the extended Day, I'm going to take tomorrow and look back at the events of Day One and see what I can find. I'm not going to be voting Pleonast toDay, as should be clear.
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RoOsh
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Day Two
May 10, 2009 22:01:35 GMT -5
Post by RoOsh on May 10, 2009 22:01:35 GMT -5
I know that, but what better way to get his pick of who to off than telling everybody he NEEDS to die? If everybody votes him, he can kill whoever he wants. What about my idea where Only 1-2 people vote for him and everyone else abstains? That way we minimize the contact with the selfish bastard.
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Day Two
May 10, 2009 22:59:43 GMT -5
Post by special on May 10, 2009 22:59:43 GMT -5
I know that, but what better way to get his pick of who to off than telling everybody he NEEDS to die? If everybody votes him, he can kill whoever he wants. What about my idea where Only 1-2 people vote for him and everyone else abstains? That way we minimize the contact with the selfish bastard. We used that theory in SSB, I believe, and ended up outing a couple of Vanilla-ish Town players who volunteered. Not sure how we can do that without exposing ourselves similarly.
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