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Post by sinjin on May 27, 2009 11:46:16 GMT -5
Pleo, a third party killer that wins with either side is stupid and overpowered. I'm sorry but I refuse to believe that any game mod would create a non neutral survivor role. It's bad design. How about a Dr. Horrible role that could be recruited by either side?
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Post by Pleonast on May 27, 2009 11:46:39 GMT -5
Pleo, a third party killer that wins with either side is stupid and overpowered. I'm sorry but I refuse to believe that any game mod would create a non neutral survivor role. It's bad design. You better talk to storyteller then, since he included that kind of role in his Evil Dead game.
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Post by NAF1138 on May 27, 2009 11:57:55 GMT -5
Pleo, a third party killer that wins with either side is stupid and overpowered. I'm sorry but I refuse to believe that any game mod would create a non neutral survivor role. It's bad design. You better talk to storyteller then, since he included that kind of role in his Evil Dead game. I have lots of problems with the way Evil Dead was put together and Story knows that. Frankly I am not sure what to make of you Pleo. You are a proven* anti town element that we are totally incapable of getting rid of. It worrys me. Still, if you don't trust in the mods to not create a broken game then there isn't any point in playing, so I am certain that given enough information we can figure you out. *or for the semantic nitpickers amongst us, not proven in the sense of the mod came down and told us, but proven in the sense of this bastard** has lied to us willingly and repeatedly and got us to waste two lynches on his ass. **Let us not forget that this is a game, and I have nothing but respect for Pleo outside of the game. In this game he is a bastard.
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Post by NAF1138 on May 27, 2009 11:58:28 GMT -5
Pleo, a third party killer that wins with either side is stupid and overpowered. I'm sorry but I refuse to believe that any game mod would create a non neutral survivor role. It's bad design. How about a Dr. Horrible role that could be recruited by either side? Why do you believe that Pleo is telling the truth about his role?
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Post by sinjin on May 27, 2009 12:14:49 GMT -5
How about a Dr. Horrible role that could be recruited by either side? Why do you believe that Pleo is telling the truth about his role? I don't know that Pleo is telling the truth or even that he is Dr. Horrible. I'm just blindly trying to find a logical fit for the events so far. Why were you so positive that a mass claim would win the game for town when you admitted to not paying close attention to what's gone on so far?
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Post by NAF1138 on May 27, 2009 12:24:14 GMT -5
Because looking at the claims and the remaining players, it looked like it was true. I was off by a Day it looks like, that's if there is a Day killer who can kill every Day, and I still don't know that that is true, but it's worst case scenario.
Things aren't making sense to me so I am trying to bang shit around until it does. It's not like we don't still have a fair bit of time toDay.
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RoOsh
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Post by RoOsh on May 27, 2009 12:33:22 GMT -5
So kid V- your magic bag. Requires a Mass Claim? Or nothing else to help it along other than that- because I doubt the mass claim is going to happen (nor do I think it's a good idea, ESPECIALLY with the DayKiller Dilemma still on the table).
But thanks for sharing you've got a bag. -_- Everyone LOVES those sorts of things.
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Post by RoOsh on May 27, 2009 12:36:32 GMT -5
How about a Dr. Horrible role that could be recruited by either side? Town wouldn't need to recruit him if he were a 3rd party Role with the new WC, he would win w/ the Town. The way I'd make the role (as I love sticking things w/ Canon), is I'd have him probably on one side- the real Dr. Horrible in the Show was not a bad guy or a killer- he only turned to a life of crime AFTER so if I were the Mod I'd try to incorporate that mechanism into the game somehow. Sort of a cupid role, but not where one player dies, but rather maybe an alignment switcheroo or something?
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Post by RoOsh on May 27, 2009 12:36:54 GMT -5
Gah. FCOD, you wanna fix the coding on that spoiler?
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Post by The Real FCOD on May 27, 2009 12:38:58 GMT -5
I don't think we have a spoiler tag on this board.
--FCOD
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Post by Pleonast on May 27, 2009 12:46:51 GMT -5
Pleo, a third party killer that wins with either side is stupid and overpowered. I'm sorry but I refuse to believe that any game mod would create a non neutral survivor role. It's bad design. You better talk to storyteller then, since he included that kind of role in his Evil Dead game. I have lots of problems with the way Evil Dead was put together and Story knows that. So you admit knowing that third-party killers that can win independently of both the Town and scum are possible. There is no reason you should have simply excluded the possibility. ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Our victory condition does need mean that a third-party will win with the Town. It means that no third-party will prevent us from winning. Whether or not the third party wins is a separate issue.
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Post by NAF1138 on May 27, 2009 12:50:28 GMT -5
I have lots of problems with the way Evil Dead was put together and Story knows that. So you admit knowing that third-party killers that can win independently of both the Town and scum are possible. There is no reason you should have simply excluded the possibility. ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Our victory condition does need mean that a third-party will win with the Town. It means that no third-party will prevent us from winning. Whether or not the third party wins is a separate issue. I don't know why I am having a semantic argument with you.
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Post by Pleonast on May 27, 2009 13:02:03 GMT -5
I don't know why I am having a semantic argument with you. Because you want us to exclude even the possibility of a third-party killer, when the setup allows for one and we have unexplained kills occurring. And because you are in the unknown pool and subject to lynching or Vig kill, you need to explain your thinking. What's your explanation for the Day kills? Is it a Vig? Does that mean we have two, or is story lying? Is it the scum kill? Then what's the explanation for the second Night kill on Night Three? Is it a second scum kill? We need an explanation for the Day kill, because it has been working against us and turns the numbers against us.
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Post by NAF1138 on May 27, 2009 13:40:13 GMT -5
I don't have an explination because it doesn't make sense. I am fairly sure I already said that. I don't have enough information but I am trying to piece together what seems logical based on the information available. I am not sure why making some reasonable assumptions is forbidden in this game these days. I am sorry I don't feel like couching everything I say in qualifiers.
I will say that I do not see the point of FCoD specifically updating the town win condition if he didn't want to try and disuade us from persuing the idea that there were multiple anti town factions. I am also having trouble seeing how a serial killer who is totally neutral works. It creates so much uncontrollable swing in the game it's silly.
But like I said, I have no good explination for the Day kills. So maybe nothing I am thinking of works and I need to get out of my own box.
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Natlaw
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Post by Natlaw on May 27, 2009 13:51:49 GMT -5
These scenarios all assume no confounding factors like blocked kills or blocked investigations or key players dying early. Or third party kills. Since the worst case scenarios are grim for the Town, I think it's better that we play cautiously at this point. If we can get another Scum in this next cycle, we'll be in much better shape and we can reevaluate the situation. I think I agree with the caution, because with the confounding factors (either IS or Story being killed very likely) at least three cycles are needed to have only scum left in the unknown (worst case that is nine town deaths, when only got seven spare) . Another factor is the recruitment-like-thing, which is another way besides a godfather a scum could get into the 'known' section. The way I'd make the role (as I love sticking things w/ Canon), is I'd have him probably on one side- the real Dr. Horrible in the Show was not a bad guy or a killer- he only turned to a life of crime AFTER so if I were the Mod I'd try to incorporate that mechanism into the game somehow. Sort of a cupid role, but not where one player dies, but rather maybe an alignment switcheroo or something? Penny would be revealed by the mass-claim, so then it's unlikely Hammer to hurt her like as in the sing-along blog. But Dr. Horrible now knows where to find his nemesis, for the now-assassination-is-just-the-only-way part (assuming Story truthful). But there is also the possibility of a doctor, so better no mass-claim Today I think.
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Post by BillMc on May 27, 2009 14:48:40 GMT -5
Sorry folks - I'm going to be away till late sunday evening
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Post by KidVermicious on May 27, 2009 18:09:40 GMT -5
*snip* Based on this analysis, I don't think a mass claim will help us that much at this point. Unless the claims can produce truly confirmed roles (any help on that, KidV?). Uh... no? JSexton Points, a method used to roughly balance games. Good for rough approximations, but easily confused by non-standard roles.
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Post by KidVermicious on May 27, 2009 18:18:54 GMT -5
So kid V- your magic bag. Requires a Mass Claim? Or nothing else to help it along other than that- because I doubt the mass claim is going to happen (nor do I think it's a good idea, ESPECIALLY with the DayKiller Dilemma still on the table). But thanks for sharing you've got a bag. -_- Everyone LOVES those sorts of things. There needs to be a rule - No Magic Bags. Because I've got no problem with breaking rules, as long as it's for a dang good reason. And (surprise surprise), I have a dang good reason for breaking the No Magic Bags rule, and I'm not particularly inclined to tell anybody what it is yet. But you already guessed that, didn't you? I agree that if the math isn't there, a mass claim is a bad idea. I trust those more mathematically inclined to sift through the minutia.
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Post by sinjin on May 27, 2009 19:17:24 GMT -5
I get the feeling that this whole Day so far has been spent distracting us from scum hunting. I am suspicious of Paul for seeming PIS, Totallost for her weird voting yesterDay, NAF for his seemingly careless proposal that we mass claim today and KidV for his magic bag. Roosh has been demoted down my possible scum ladder for the time being.
Fuck it
Vote: Paul
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Post by storyteller0910 on May 28, 2009 7:38:24 GMT -5
Lemme re-read this Day so far, which has been pretty dead (not that I've helped much). More in a bit.
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Post by storyteller0910 on May 28, 2009 7:47:31 GMT -5
But I do agree with Kat that the way the WC has been changed- it does seem to rule out a NonELE SK role at least. But it doesn't rule out the possibility of a 3rd party killer. Just one that opposes the Town. Not even that. "You win if you are the last player alive" would be a win condition for an SK that would be perfectly consistent with our revised win condition as Town - an insanely difficult win condition to achieve, but consistent. I can probably invent ten others. All the revised win condition means is that we don't have to kill any third-parties in order to win - not that we can't lose to a third-party, and ceratinly not that there are such things. (There better be a third-party. If the Scum have two kills at their disposal, one of them a potentially unblockable Daykill, we might as well hoof ourselves to death right now).
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Post by The Real FCOD on May 28, 2009 7:49:16 GMT -5
Vote count:
NAF1138 (1) - Pleonast
--FCOD
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Post by storyteller0910 on May 28, 2009 8:00:15 GMT -5
Honestly I'm a little shocked that storyteller claimed the way he did. First of all, with an apparent Daykiller on the loose, and as far as we know no way to protect from the Daykill, story could be as good as dead by Dusk. And him claiming just to give a little more information? I think it's a horrible, horrible play. The only way I can see it being okay is if the Daykill has to be put in the Night before, but even so story's got a maximum of one more Night alive. Wait, you mean people are allowed to kill me in this game? I had never considered that as a possibility! Seriously, let them kill me. A compulsory Vig is not a good target for the Scum, because I basically balance as, at best, the same as a Vanilla Townie and at worst anti-Town. I have to kill. If I don't pick a target, one is selected for me at random. I am likely to vote for whoever my most suspected player is each Day, so come Night I will either: (1) target Pleo, in which case I really am vanilla; or (2) shoot blind. We see how well #2 worked out last Night. Let them kill me. If they kill me, they're not killing the hypothetical Doc or Inner Stickler (and by the way, let's just say what everyone knows deep down: if our Day killer has any more shots to fire, (s)he's probably going to kill Stickler toDay. Why take the risk of exposure?). I'll just say "I disagree." I had forgotten about sachertorte, but my feelings about the Daykiller stem mostly from the death of zlw. No pro-Town agent would kill a claimed investigator, whose role PM matched exactly to another claimed investigator. It would be self-defeating in the extreme.
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Post by storyteller0910 on May 28, 2009 8:03:31 GMT -5
There needs to be a rule - No Magic Bags. Because I've got no problem with breaking rules, as long as it's for a dang good reason. And (surprise surprise), I have a dang good reason for breaking the No Magic Bags rule, and I'm not particularly inclined to tell anybody what it is yet. But you already guessed that, didn't you?. So you're saying you have a good reason for telling us that you won't tell us something, but you won't tell us what the good reason for telling us that you won't tell us might be? That's... not at all helpful.
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Post by Nanook on May 28, 2009 8:31:19 GMT -5
People sure love their magic bags. I can't remember the last game we had without even a hint of one.
I notice everyone has decided that there's a full on DayKiller out there. I'm not exactly sure why this is. The only time anyone has died during the Day is when we tried to lynch Pleo. I know what you're going to say, that FCOD said they weren't related. But that isn't what he said. He said we didn't lynch them. That isn't the same thing. I could see it being a bomb ability attached to Pleo that triggers when we try and lynch him. Mind you, if we have yet another DK today, when there's really not much chance of us trying to lynch Pleo, that will be full on confirmation of a DKer.
When you combine the above uncertainly regarding DKs with the analysis Pleo did(which I don't see anything glaring mistakes in, and no one has tried to refute), I would say that the mass claim idea needs to be tabled at least one Day. If there's no Dk Today though, we should definately reconsider for Tomorrow.
On that note, what about the possibility of running with the plan to a small extent? By that I mean, the basic gist of the plan is mass claim, then systematically lynch, investigate and vig anyone who claims vanilla and/or non-confirmable power role. Right now, one of the ones that falls into the uncofirmed pool is NAF. Does it therefore make sense to lynch NAF, which fulfills the dual purpose of moving ahead with his plan while simultaneously confirming or denying his intentions in suggesting said plan. If he comes up scum/3rd Party, then we'll know that the plan has some gaping hole we were overlooking, and if he comes up Town, we'll know that the plan is solid from a theory standpoint and can then decide if the specifics work.
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Post by Pleonast on May 28, 2009 10:42:41 GMT -5
Vote count: NAF1138 (1) - Pleonast With a little more than a day left in the Day, I'm the only one who has voted?
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Post by The Real FCOD on May 28, 2009 10:43:33 GMT -5
ToDay is extended to Saturday because I figured people wouldn't be on much Sat, Sun, and Mon due to Memorial Day.
--FCOD
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Post by Total Ullz on May 28, 2009 10:51:57 GMT -5
I get the feeling that this whole Day so far has been spent distracting us from scum hunting. I am suspicious of Paul for seeming PIS, Totallost for her weird voting yesterDay, NAF for his seemingly careless proposal that we mass claim today and KidV for his magic bag. Roosh has been demoted down my possible scum ladder for the time being. Fuck it Vote: Paul [/color][/quote] I'm going to quote with color for the sake of the mod "my weird" voting was for Story at first - then for you later. What do you find weird? My vote for Story? My vote for you? We have been told this is not a gastard game, so I can't think both of you are alpha scum. So I must have voted for at least one town. That's not weird - that just what happens. As for my vote for Story... it wasn't very strong or solid. That's why I unvoted. Not weird - just a vote and then after thinking things through an unvote. My vote on you? I still think the way you went after zlw was scummy like hell. And I don't seem to be the only one finding it strange that a Town player would want to see zlw dead: I'll just say "I disagree." I had forgotten about sachertorte, but my feelings about the Daykiller stem mostly from the death of zlw. No pro-Town agent would kill a claimed investigator, whose role PM matched exactly to another claimed investigator. It would be self-defeating in the extreme.
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Post by Total Ullz on May 28, 2009 10:53:32 GMT -5
Vote count: NAF1138 (1) - Pleonast With a little more than a day left in the Day, I'm the only one who has voted? Oh, Sinjin's vote really didn't count... My bad
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Post by Natlaw on May 28, 2009 14:06:30 GMT -5
The Day started with paul being sure that a doctor protected successfully the first two Nights. Yes, I attribute the lack of deaths on Night 1 and 2 to some excellent work by our doc. So that accounts for one kill... but not having a second kill at all until last Night? I was not expecting that. I was hoping there would be no kill at all... so seeing two took me by complete surprise... But if the doctor blocked, wouldn't the Dusk kill be a second kill? paul said he missed FCOD's message it wasn't the lynch. He has acknowledged it now and he didn't post Night Two, so I guess he could have missed it. Then Storyteller was revealed as investigated as town and claimed Captain Hammer. He double targeted Pleonast and killed special ed. Retargeting Pleo makes sense to avoid the compulsory requirement, advocating the second lynch of him not so much. But if scum either he is Godfather or IS is scum as well - the first is possible, but second not so much. But a scum claiming Captain Hammer seems unlikely because I don't see Hammer as ELE member (they would never invite such a wuss ), plus a real vigilante would take him out. A vigilante is suggested by the extra kill (could be another killer, but with the new win condition SK unlikely). And then NAF1138 jumped out with his town has won, mass claim makes even easier plan. It reminds me of his play in Evil Dead when he was a investigator and had big plans to build a masonry of confirmed town and thus win. We ended up lynching his next investigation target due to miscommunication . His sure-fire way to win plan here is to lynch/kill/investigate unknown which must contains all scum. His brushing over a possible godfather and the recruitment-like-thing seems a bit convenient. And scum benefit for the mass claim as well. Both paul and NAF also voted Day One for Inner Stickler when Sister Coyote was a candidate for the lynch. vote NAF1138Reducing the unknown pool isn't bad, but the mass claim isn't really needed for that. NAF glossed way too much over the downsides.
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