Gir!
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EVIL Demon Goddess Mod
What? Kat is sweet and innocent!
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Post by Gir! on Jul 12, 2009 19:33:04 GMT -5
I don't get it. I've been in more than one game in which dead players subbed back in. I would have subbed back into PB if I hadn't been a Mason. Since AllWalker was vanilla, how did that unbalance the game? If he'd've been a power role, sure, but he was vanilla?
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Post by julie on Jul 12, 2009 19:37:20 GMT -5
Your guess is as good as mine. It was really hostile and completely out of left field. WE kept saying that he didn't know anything about mafia but absolutely knew that I was a horrible mod and had destroyed their chances. When CIAS said the same thing I had been saying, it just got more personal from there.
I don't think I'll ever understand it, but it definitely has cast a pall on the game for me.
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Post by allwalker on Jul 12, 2009 20:32:50 GMT -5
Wow! I'm sorry julie, i thought i was being helpful. Honest!
Do people REALLY think I am that good a player, that the simple act of being there will unbalance the game? That's how I'll interpret it, anyway.
Recycling players is a standard move in Mafia. Obviously it is not ideal, but if the alternative is modkilling everyone who dropped out, well, THAT would ruin the game.
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Post by julie on Jul 12, 2009 20:38:08 GMT -5
AllWalker, you strike fear into all scum players everywhere!
One guy QUIT rather than take on the task of playing you!
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Jul 12, 2009 21:18:46 GMT -5
I don't understand what their problem was...
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Post by special on Jul 12, 2009 21:20:27 GMT -5
wow, Julie you did the right thing.
They were unreasonable, though, the reason they probably didn't object t me is that they knew I'd be joining them.
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Merestil Haye
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[on:Slumming it in the Middle-Earth][of:In the halls of Manw
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Post by Merestil Haye on Jul 13, 2009 7:17:04 GMT -5
Now I've read the palaver, I'm willing to offer comment.
There are only two issues with a player who had been killed out subbing back in.
The first, which really is unavoidable, is that the sub doesn't know what the person he replaced was thinking, and if there had been a questionable decision, he can't explain it.
The second occurs only in games with no "card flip" - that is, the Mod doesn't reveal the role or alignment of the dead player. Letting a player back in is something that you can't do if the player has knowledge derived from his former role that is not known to all players. In a "no card flip" game, letting a player sub back in reveals, at the bare minimum, that the sub is not Mafia, of is Mafia but was Mafia in his old role as well. You can't sub a dead Doc in because they know who their old role protected, you can't sub a Mason in because they'll know who the living Masons are, you can't sub a Cop in because they'll know who they investigated and, if they live past Night 1, the results of their investigations.
Pretty much the only role I'd be comfortable allowing a sub in would be an ex-Vanilla Town. (I've subbed in once when my old role was Crazy Townie, but the revenge kill was openly a part of the death scene.)
Consequently, in a no-card-flip game, letting someone back in reveals that their former role was Vanilla Town.
I'm very disappointed in Winston; I thought he knew better, he's certainly played more than one game. I don't know What Exit? enough to judge why he thought that.
In any case, your decisions were fine.
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Post by The Real FCOD on Jul 13, 2009 8:11:43 GMT -5
Yeah...that's not cool. Subbing in a dead vanilla in a standard reveal game is perfectly acceptable. You did absolutely nothing wrong. I've never played with Winston or What Exit, but I have played with CatInASuit and I'm frankly surprised that he sided against you in this matter. Very disappointing.
But, like I said before, don't let one bad experience ruin Mafia for you. It's really an enjoyable hobby.
--FCOD
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Post by julie on Jul 13, 2009 8:50:57 GMT -5
I'm sorry I wasn't clear. CIAS definitely did NOT side against me. He suffered through a dozen or so PMs from WE and WS and tried to calm them down, to no avail.
He was great.
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Post by The Real FCOD on Jul 13, 2009 9:12:34 GMT -5
Ok, phew! Actually you did say that I just misread it.
And what a-holes... even if you don't like what the mod did, don't make it personal.
--FCOD
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Post by Hawkmod on Jul 13, 2009 10:11:50 GMT -5
I do like the irony that what ended up killing the scum were the subs who weren't previously in the game.
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Jul 13, 2009 10:35:55 GMT -5
If I were more inclined to be vindictive, I'd take some amount of ironic pleasure reading the scumboard to learn that there did indeed appear to be a hard on at play between Winston and I, but it was not me having one for him as he implied in game, and by the end it seemed like a full-on case of blue balls. But then he's not here so that would be uncouth to say. ;D
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Total Ullz
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You can take the girl out of mafia - but you can't take mafia out of the girl
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Post by Total Ullz on Jul 13, 2009 16:10:49 GMT -5
In my first game as a mod (on FB) I subbed a dead vanilla back in the game - and one player (scum and very dead) went berserk on me!!
It was only later - when I went to this board - I learned it was something others would do as well.
I think Julie did really well with this game - and as I've said - I'd love to re-play or copy-mod it!!
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Post by Pleonast on Jul 14, 2009 9:51:19 GMT -5
First, players must respect the decisions of the moderator. If you volunteered to play their game, you need to trust them enough to maintain a balanced game. There's room for discussion after the game regarding balance and other decisions, but a player who has an unresolved win condition cannot impartially discuss a game.
That said, in-game complaints about a moderator are perfectly fine. Players ought to be able to smudge the moderator as much as the other players. It's fair because it can affect the other players' perception of the game. The moderator absolutely should not respond. (Note that this is why I as a moderator no longer answer "rules" questions in the game thread(s). Makes it too easy to manipulate perceptions of the rules.)
As for the specific complaint regarding the back-substitution of players, this is my order of preference for dealing with an AWOL player: 1. Do nothing. 2. Mod-kill. 3. Substitute in a new player. 4. Substitute in a dead vanilla player.
I don't like substitutions in general. It makes it much harder to analyze patterns. This hurts the Town and hardly affects the Scum. For the Scum to win, they simply have to play "Townie" and make enough "mistakes" that the Town mislynches too many. Townies have to distinguish players who are actually trying to find Scum, from those who are merely pretending. Muddying posting styles and vote records makes that much more difficult.
Substituting back in a previous player makes the situation worse for the Town. Now you have a player who already had in-game relationships. It's hard to separate their past role from the current role. Back-subbing also is worse for the Scum--they worked the game to remove that particular player; it's unfair to undo that effort. Remember Scum kill players as much for their playing as for the role they have.
I think mod-killing AWOL players is better than any type of substitution. The trouble with mod-killing (also a problem with substitution to a lesser extent) is what the trigger is and when to pull it. Wherever the trigger-line is placed, some players will walk the line. Then the moderator is forced into making a large game-affecting decision based on which side of a threshold the hair falls.
In my opinion, the best solution to absent players is simply to do nothing. Let the other players decide. The game of mafia is about eliminating players based on their actions. Or inactions. Let the players use the tools at their disposal to resolve in-game problems. That's the Mafia solution.
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Trepa Mayfield
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Post by Trepa Mayfield on Jul 21, 2009 23:08:46 GMT -5
I am...really disillusioned with Domebo. It's collapsing under it's own anarchist impulses, and the pull from various buddy type posters, and Excalibre in particular, plus the stings from the snarkers, combined with the inconsistent treatment between the people who came early and the people who came late, is really exposing why such weak moderating isn't conducive to a high-intellectual type board.
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Jul 21, 2009 23:19:05 GMT -5
Aside from mafia games, I haven't hung out there much. I seem to only have room in my life to really frequent one BB outside of gaming, and that has been Giraffe's lately. I am trying to stay engaged with the Dope, but it just seems to be slipping more and more. I blame Facebook somewhat. It doesn't quite scratch the same itch, but sucks out of the same pool of time.
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Post by julie on Jul 22, 2009 10:22:13 GMT -5
For me, Giraffe's has all of the things I detest about the Dope and none of the good stuff. Thankfully, Princess Bride is over so I can leave. Domebo was a little better but is now pointless. I've moved on to other boards for the most part.
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Post by NAF1138 on Jul 22, 2009 10:34:41 GMT -5
For me, Giraffe's has all of the things I detest about the Dope and none of the good stuff. Thankfully, Princess Bride is over so I can leave. Domebo was a little better but is now pointless. I've moved on to other boards for the most part. Out of curiosity, why is it now pointless? I am acutally in the process of trying to figure out how the hell everything went wrong with Domebo, so feedback is appreciated.
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Post by julie on Jul 22, 2009 10:53:48 GMT -5
Too much talk about the board and not enough traffic to make the board, for me. I can't stand the insular nature of the Dope, so Domebo ends up compounding that.
It sucks because I thought it had a lot of potential.
Giraffe's is all in jokes and insularity all the time. I guess lots of people like that, but I find it unpleasant.
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Post by PrecambrianMollusc on Jul 22, 2009 11:17:44 GMT -5
FWIW I think its problems lie in the way it was conceived. First we have a lot of people who were pissed off at the heavy handed mod dumbness/ed nonsense at the dope which drove people away. Whilst there was, I think, a reasonable argument for being upset at the dope staff, mixed in with that there was a number of people who would get pissed off at anything for the sake of being pissed off. This group was noisy but ignorable (up until ed fiasco) at the dope, but at domebo it seamed like it was non stop. The initial mod staff selection didn't help and I can't help but feel the constant vigilance for sock/snarkers/trolls directed too many mod actions that just added fuel to those who wanted to be upset at something. The lack of critical mass in key drawing forums probably isn't helping, over at the dope the GQ/GD and maybe Pit help keep a critical mass of people reading who may then gravitate over to other forums. Domebo really doesn't have a real pull forum right now (although I am sure the arse and boobs pic threads would draw me if I wasn't on a work computer). The chat probably also mayhave cut out a few posts in the jibber jabber forums, and post volume probably helps keep the juices flowing. So with a lack of draw, and the fires of the primary reason for people being their originally (pissed off at dope staff) slowly dying, I am not sure it will survive.
I am not a big poster so this may all be utter bollocks.
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Post by NAF1138 on Jul 22, 2009 11:19:41 GMT -5
I suppose that's what happens when you have a board who's reason for being is a protest of another message board. It's too bad because I also think Domebo has potential, but as we keep losing posters that potential keeps slipping away. I think my long diatribe about what I think is wrong with how the modderation of the board works and the changes that were implemented because of that have (at least so far) helped a bit. But I suppose we'll see.
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Post by julie on Jul 22, 2009 11:30:01 GMT -5
I'm pulling for ya, NAF. It's worth saving if people have the smarts to figure out how. I sure don't.
I think I've seen now that my blaming some of my game's issues on domebo isn't fair to domebo. After the latest one on Giraffe where the scum just up and quit, I think it shows that funky stuff can happen anywhere.
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Total Ullz
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Post by Total Ullz on Jul 24, 2009 15:58:35 GMT -5
I'm pulling for ya, NAF. It's worth saving if people have the smarts to figure out how. I sure don't. I think I've seen now that my blaming some of my game's issues on domebo isn't fair to domebo. After the latest one on Giraffe where the scum just up and quit, I think it shows that funky stuff can happen anywhere. You should have seen some of the former facebook-mafia-games - and you would think Domebo and Giraffe was heaven for mafia-games!!! I'm not on Domebo very much and I think it's just that I got sucked in to Giraffe and being on 4 or 5 boards is too much. I can't leave FB and this board - and after Giraffe (when I have the time) I do read a bit on Domebo - but I fail to write much. Not a fault of the board - but of me
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Post by shaggy on Aug 1, 2009 9:33:03 GMT -5
Hey Julie i would not worry to much, every board has it's bad players. And I think everyone has atleast one bad MOD experience unfortunetly your like me and Mitey....it is your first. But it is ok, cause I am sure the next will be much better. I 2nd what Mitey said about our first...it was good till the 3rd day, then it kinda exploded on it's self. But it is ok, cause I really enjoyed MODing it, and I loved doing the colour for the game. So I hope in the future I will get the chance to do that again.
Also do remember it is where you play that has a big impact too. I have never played on that site but I find myself find that I am playing more here and now starting to move onto giraffe. FB was great for introducing me to the game but the more I play the more I am having alot more fun else where now. Don't get me wrong I like FB and certainly will still keep up playing there but I am just saying I think you just need to move around and find the site(s) that is a best fits for you.
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Post by sinjin on Aug 1, 2009 22:31:59 GMT -5
After the latest one on Giraffe where the scum just up and quit, I think it shows that funky stuff can happen anywhere. Hey, I resemble that. We didn't "just up and quit" we up and lost. When town decided to lynch Archangel based on the meta-gaming of the sub order and Archangel voted for herself the game was over. Did you really want to go thru real days and days of me tap-dancing for the entertainment of the on-lookers? No, I didn't think so.
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Post by shaggy on Aug 1, 2009 23:02:54 GMT -5
After the latest one on Giraffe where the scum just up and quit, I think it shows that funky stuff can happen anywhere. Hey, I resemble that. We didn't "just up and quit" we up and lost. When town decided to lynch Archangel based on the meta-gaming of the sub order and Archangel voted for herself the game was over. Did you really want to go thru real days and days of me tap-dancing for the entertainment of the on-lookers? No, I didn't think so. I kinda did say it there but will more so now Sinjin, to me that was a hallow vitory for the town...you played so good, that my "case" was more grasping at straws then anything and you deserved to win not loose especially loose the way you did. Or atleast that is my peanut gallery opinion here.
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Post by sinjin on Aug 2, 2009 8:39:49 GMT -5
I kinda did say it there but will more so now Sinjin, to me that was a hallow vitory for the town... Bah, this is not true either, town played a good game. Ed coming up with the vanilla handshake, MentalGuy was brilliant, even IS's coming up with the meta-game winning reasoning for taking out Archangel was great play.........
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Post by julie on Aug 2, 2009 10:22:54 GMT -5
Hey, I resemble that. We didn't "just up and quit" we up and lost. When town decided to lynch Archangel based on the meta-gaming of the sub order and Archangel voted for herself the game was over. Did you really want to go thru real days and days of me tap-dancing for the entertainment of the on-lookers? No, I didn't think so. I think your scum fellows up and quit on YOU long before that. From my perspective, you got abandoned. That's what I was talking about.
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Post by shaggy on Aug 2, 2009 11:28:53 GMT -5
I kinda did say it there but will more so now Sinjin, to me that was a hallow vitory for the town... Bah, this is not true either, town played a good game. Ed coming up with the vanilla handshake, MentalGuy was brilliant, even IS's coming up with the meta-game winning reasoning for taking out Archangel was great play......... Well yes town played a great game, there is no denying that. I am just trying to say, I feel bad that to me it almost seems like what Julie just said.
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Post by sinjin on Aug 2, 2009 11:50:28 GMT -5
Sorry, I just really, really hate to give up and so when I saw Julies comment.... Bottom line, IMHO town totally deserved to win that game and it shouldn't be a hollow victory. Save the bunny!
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