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Post by Pleonast on Mar 6, 2012 15:54:10 GMT -5
And ultimately your attitude (others are displaying it as well) is why there's no cost for me to claim early. Since I can't prove my alignment, I can be lynched by the "they can't prove it" argument at any time, no matter what I claim. Getting lynched Day One is no different than getting lynched Day Four, in terms of winning or not. You're kinda glossing over the part about how pretty much the only reason any Townie would be wanting to lynch you right now is because you claimed, what that claim included, and what may or may not have been excluded from said claim. Do you honestly think you'd be under this amount of lynch pressure if you hadn't claimed? Because that is what it sounds like you're saying, and it is a bit baffling. I'm arguing against the specific reasoning in Suburban's posts. They are using a criterion so strict that it's useless. Whether or not I'm lying or anyone believes me, anyone who doesn't have a self-confirming role can be lynched by their criterion. I think that's worth pointing out. As for your post here, I don't think it's townies driving my lynch. Town only gains from my lynch if I'm lying about my win condition. Scum gains from my lynch whether or not I'm lying.
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Mar 6, 2012 16:03:32 GMT -5
As for your post here, I don't think it's townies driving my lynch. Town only gains from my lynch if I'm lying about my win condition. Scum gains from my lynch whether or not I'm lying. You're over-simplifying here too. Taking your role at face value, town also prevents damage to the Town win condition that you/your role might inflict if we leave you alive, whether it is what you intend to do with your powers or not (i.e. redirection, bus driving, etc).
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Post by Hal Briston on Mar 6, 2012 16:22:26 GMT -5
I remember someone saying that their first sentence was something generic that could apply to anyone. In that case, just pick the second sentence, or the third one, or whatever: Something that does apply specifically to your role. I have no problem with that. Here: Ciaprifauacym. On a related point -- very nice claim. That effectively renders cover roles null (since scum have no idea which cover is compromised). On a not-as-nice note, hope the doc(s) and/or watcher(s) are willing to give you some attention tonight.
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Meeko
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Post by Meeko on Mar 6, 2012 16:24:12 GMT -5
Meanwhile, I have something else to add. Back when I was trying to get people to post an encoded piece of their PM? I do honestly think it's a good idea anyway, but I also have reason to believe that it would be even more effective this game. You see, I know what one of the cover roles is. In my role PM, Storyteller told me that if someone showed up claiming to be <redacted>, they're probably lying. Ok Chronos, now we have the opposite problem. Why couldn't you just have said the above back when you offered the accrostic?
So, we have a player that admits to being able to work with, or rather, can work better after roles are posted. We have a player that admits to having a power that can only work after players have been voted AND unvoted. It has been reported that roles similar to these were in the first Batman game.
This is where I am with this: I don't think that Hal is the victim of anything. I think [for lack of better words, and to preserve space] his "Big Shiny Red Button" post, in which he literally voted everyone (including himself) was for a power he has. I think his power is now active, much like Pleonast's is, simply becaue he was able to vote for everyone. I wonder if they didn't orchestrate the entire thing off board, in order to get BOTH roles charged. That being said, the entire plan could have been exactly as meets the eye. Or Pleonast could be lying his ass off, just to get Hal to his "charged" point. We can debate what Pleonast has changed to his role all day. [ ]
What we can't debate, is Hal's voting binge.
Does Hal's Vote Binge need to be on record?
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Post by texcat on Mar 6, 2012 16:48:59 GMT -5
Meanwhile, I have something else to add. Back when I was trying to get people to post an encoded piece of their PM? I do honestly think it's a good idea anyway, but I also have reason to believe that it would be even more effective this game. You see, I know what one of the cover roles is. In my role PM, Storyteller told me that if someone showed up claiming to be <redacted>, they're probably lying. If we can get most of the players to commit to their role PM before this Day is over, I'll say who the role is, and hopefully, we'll end up with one of the Scum being screwed (obviously it would be counterproductive for me to say who now, because if I did, the Scum would just not use that false claim). I remember someone saying that their first sentence was something generic that could apply to anyone. In that case, just pick the second sentence, or the third one, or whatever: Something that does apply specifically to your role. Really? Storyteller supplied fake roles and then told you about one of them? Why? I'm not sure this makes a lot of sense. Why bother supplying fake roles in the first place? Secondly, how will we uncover a scum this way? How will you be able to decode the anagrams and tell who is claiming the fake role? I'm not necessarily against this; I'd just like some reassurances that it's going to actually get us somewhere and that it's not some kind of nefarious scum scheme.
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Mar 6, 2012 16:49:15 GMT -5
I'm willing to participate in the evolving Chronos proposal. I can't see how it can hurt anything at this point, aside from another primer that opens us gullible ones up for an attack or allows him to do something dastardly if enough people comply. I'm willing to take that chance.
tewacysieybtyoltptoaoyt
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Post by Hal Briston on Mar 6, 2012 16:59:00 GMT -5
How will you be able to decode the anagrams and tell who is claiming the fake role? He won't. The point is that if right now, you give an acronym (not anagram) of "xyxyxyxyxyxyx", then on Day Three you won't be able to say "Oh shit, I can't use (my real role/my cover role) because that one doesn't have 'xyxyxyxyxyxyx' in it!"
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Post by Inner Stickler on Mar 6, 2012 17:02:53 GMT -5
Really? Storyteller supplied fake roles and then told you about one of them? Why? I'm not sure this makes a lot of sense. Why bother supplying fake roles in the first place? Secondly, how will we uncover a scum this way? How will you be able to decode the anagrams and tell who is claiming the fake role? I believe what Chronos is saying is that Storyteller gave the scum some fake roles with the guarantee that no one truthfully has that role in the game. Say the fake roles are the Gotham City Mayor, Alfred, Catgirl and a traffic cone. Chronos is saying that his PM says, btw if anyone says they're a traffic cone, it's not true. Some mods in the past have given the scum one less cover role than the scum team totals in order to make it a little more difficult for them to false claim. This may just be a variant on that by making the scum team guess which role was leaked. ~~~ I still don't believe Hal's actions smack of scumminess but I need to think more on the subject. Here's the first letters of a sentence from my role pm. May it bring you much joy and happiness. YNCMATBAHWGBYT
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Post by peekercpa on Mar 6, 2012 17:07:11 GMT -5
here's an acronym.
hcbsbiwh
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Post by peekercpa on Mar 6, 2012 17:08:07 GMT -5
here's an acronym.
hcbsbiwhmoipfavoalarog
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Post by peekercpa on Mar 6, 2012 17:10:05 GMT -5
and one other
a2rp. wonder what it means that i am the first to have a number.
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Post by BillMc on Mar 6, 2012 17:10:53 GMT -5
I remember someone saying that their first sentence was something generic that could apply to anyone. In that case, just pick the second sentence, or the third one, or whatever: Something that does apply specifically to your role. I'm ok with this: itystorbpaf
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Meeko
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Post by Meeko on Mar 6, 2012 17:14:00 GMT -5
Is Chronos' desire for acronyms Chronos dirven or canon driven?
Could Chronos' role need acronyms for any reason?
It seems tailor suited for The Riddler to ask this.
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Post by Silver Jan on Mar 6, 2012 17:52:46 GMT -5
here's an acronym. hcbsbiwh I thought an acronym had to make a word with the letters? As in KISS "Kill and Strangle Suspects"? Everyone is just posting random letters, supposedly from their Pm, mine just said https://
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Post by Chronos on Mar 6, 2012 17:56:09 GMT -5
If you're worried about this, feel free to come up with your own variant. The first letter of each sentence in the whole PM, or ever tenth letter regardless of word boundaries, or whatever (but of course, say what variant you're using).
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Post by Suburban Plankton on Mar 6, 2012 18:00:39 GMT -5
The rules post also leaves open the possibility that a PFK might win with one or more other PFKs/third parties. But since we don't know of any such other people other than Pleo, probably he himself doesn't know whether he can win with any of them. Meanwhile, I have something else to add. Back when I was trying to get people to post an encoded piece of their PM? I do honestly think it's a good idea anyway, but I also have reason to believe that it would be even more effective this game. You see, I know what one of the cover roles is. In my role PM, Storyteller told me that if someone showed up claiming to be <redacted>, they're probably lying. If we can get most of the players to commit to their role PM before this Day is over, I'll say who the role is, and hopefully, we'll end up with one of the Scum being screwed (obviously it would be counterproductive for me to say who now, because if I did, the Scum would just not use that false claim). I remember someone saying that their first sentence was something generic that could apply to anyone. In that case, just pick the second sentence, or the third one, or whatever: Something that does apply specifically to your role. Is there really a point to this? I mean, I understand the point you're making, but I just don't see what good it's going to do. For example, suppose Pleonast hadn't claimed yet, and he gave us 'aystlalalaeyhtsthjtcyb'. Then a few days from now he claims, and his claim includes the line "And you started to laugh, and laugh, and laugh, and eventually you had to shoot three henchmen just to catch your breath." Fantastic! It matches! So now we know he really is The Joker! So f-ing what? How is that supposed to help us? Is the Joker a 3rd-Party, or is he a PFK? I know, the goal is to 'lock the Scum into a cover story'. Someone tell me, how often does that actually work? Personally, I'd rather play the game and try to figure things out the 'old fashioned way', than to play Caped Cryptographer. But maybe that's just me.
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Post by special on Mar 6, 2012 18:01:53 GMT -5
Is Chronos' desire for acronyms Chronos dirven or canon driven? Could Chronos' role need acronyms for any reason? It seems tailor suited for The Riddler to ask this. Are you claiming the Riddler? Since, you know, you did ask, and it was tailored suited for the Riddle to ask...
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Post by Chronos on Mar 6, 2012 18:02:27 GMT -5
Oh, and to use Inner Stickler's traffic cone example: Suppose that the first sentence of the traffic cone fake PM is "You may not do much, but you're great at sitting in the middle of a street and keeping people from falling in manholes.". So one of the Scum picks that fake claim, and posts "ymndmbygasitmoasakpffim". Then, after everyone has posted their acrostics, I come back and say "The traffic cone is a fake claim". Now that scum is screwed: He can't use the traffic cone fake PM, because I'd have outed it, and he'll have a really hard time coming up with a new fake PM that sounds plausible and uses those letters.
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Mar 6, 2012 18:06:17 GMT -5
For the record, I chose a specific sentence from the middle of my role PM that is specific to my role.
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Post by Suburban Plankton on Mar 6, 2012 18:08:39 GMT -5
Oh, and to use Inner Stickler's traffic cone example: Suppose that the first sentence of the traffic cone fake PM is "You may not do much, but you're great at sitting in the middle of a street and keeping people from falling in manholes.". So one of the Scum picks that fake claim, and posts "ymndmbygasitmoasakpffim". Then, after everyone has posted their acrostics, I come back and say "The traffic cone is a fake claim". Now that scum is screwed: He can't use the traffic cone fake PM, because I'd have outed it, and he'll have a really hard time coming up with a new fake PM that sounds plausible and uses those letters. That's really great. So if your WinCon has something to do with "Find and destroy the Traffic Cone", then we've just helped you to win. There's no way that could possibly go wrong now, is there?
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Post by Mahaloth on Mar 6, 2012 18:13:22 GMT -5
I'm fine with this sentence acronym thingy(I know, I know, it isn't an acronym). Anyway, mine:
sgwdinavsaa
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Meeko
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Post by Meeko on Mar 6, 2012 18:15:50 GMT -5
Is Chronos' desire for acronyms Chronos dirven or canon driven? Could Chronos' role need acronyms for any reason? It seems tailor suited for The Riddler to ask this. Are you claiming the Riddler? Since, you know, you did ask, and it was tailored suited for the Riddle to ask... Are you claiming Gorton of Gloucester?
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Post by special on Mar 6, 2012 18:22:11 GMT -5
here's an acronym. hcbsbiwh I thought an acronym had to make a word with the letters? As in KISS "Kill and Strangle Suspects"? Everyone is just posting random letters, supposedly from their Pm, mine just said https:// It's nice if they make words, makes it easier to remember, but doesn't have to. Here is one iwdbeflt And another lhhfihraowgtboohiaehcehtc That was harder than it should be to make sure I got all the letters right. It would have been hopeless on my phone.
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Post by special on Mar 6, 2012 18:25:35 GMT -5
Are you claiming the Riddler? Since, you know, you did ask, and it was tailored suited for the Riddle to ask... Are you claiming Gorton of Gloucester?Wait, so you throw a huge breadcrumb, crouton, loaf, whatever out there. And you accuse me of fishing? When the name you are hinting at was a PFK in the original game.... After another player has claimed Serial Killer, with a name that was a PFK Serial Killer in the original game.... Srsly? On a related note: OH MY GOD I UNDERSTAND MEEKO!
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Post by Suburban Plankton on Mar 6, 2012 18:26:07 GMT -5
Which means you'd have to cause 5 deaths, many/most of which, statistically speaking, are likely to be townies. Didn't someone look at the numbers of the last game and find that only half the players were town? If you can come up with a way that you can prove your alignment, so that we can know Your Win =/= Our Loss, then maybe we can negotiate. Failing that, what do you expect the rest of us to do? Do you really think we're just going to 'take your word for it'? You just don't understand how to negotiate do you? No proof is necessary. No one has to trust anyone. We do this one Day at a time. Each Day the situation can be reevaluated. And the by way, your "prove your alignment" criterion is unrealistic. Very few players can do it. Can you prove your alignment? If not, why should anyone bother to negotiate with you? The answer is we don't need trust to negotiate. We evaluate each Day. And ultimately your attitude (others are displaying it as well) is why there's no cost for me to claim early. Since I can't prove my alignment, I can be lynched by the "they can't prove it" argument at any time, no matter what I claim. Getting lynched Day One is no different than getting lynched Day Four, in terms of winning or not. You have a point...I was perhaps too zealous in insisting on 'proof'. We've all played enough Mafia to know that proof comes only with death. We can certainly negotiate without ironclad proof, and indeed without trust. But what exactly are the terms? You want Town to offer you 'continued existence for the remainder of the game'. And in return you are offering to 'not kill too many of us'. And we just have to take your word for it that when you achieve your win condition, that we don't suffer immediate defeat. Oops...it looks like we do need trust. You have another point, as well, though. It's true that there is no cost for you to claim early. Because as a 3rd-Party/PFK, a claim at any point is pretty much a death sentence. You're too dangerous to let live. We made that mistake a while back (Dr Seuss Mafia) where we allowed a claimed Survivor to live long enough to steal the win because she was actually a Mad Bomber. I'm not going to make that mistake again. Sure, we could let you live a Day or Two, and then lynch you. And we could spend that time discussing whether a 3rd Party lynch is a good think because it's 'not Town' or a bad thing because it's 'not Scum', or whether the extra kills you're certain to cause are justified by the information we'll gather from them, or whether it's better to Lynch 3rd-parties or to Vig them...or we can just get it over with and get on with the business at hand.
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Post by Meeko on Mar 6, 2012 18:29:07 GMT -5
Oh, and to use Inner Stickler's traffic cone example: Suppose that the first sentence of the traffic cone fake PM is "You may not do much, but you're great at sitting in the middle of a street and keeping people from falling in manholes.". So one of the Scum picks that fake claim, and posts "ymndmbygasitmoasakpffim". Then, after everyone has posted their acrostics, I come back and say "The traffic cone is a fake claim". Now that scum is screwed: He can't use the traffic cone fake PM, because I'd have outed it, and he'll have a really hard time coming up with a new fake PM that sounds plausible and uses those letters. Bold is mine. So, I don't follow this. Why would scum go so far as to claim the traffic cone in the first place?Your plan assumes that other people do something, that at once would be their free choice to do, or not do. Further, it assumes they make the choice in their worst interest.
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Post by special on Mar 6, 2012 18:30:51 GMT -5
Didn't someone look at the numbers of the last game and find that only half the players were town? You just don't understand how to negotiate do you? No proof is necessary. No one has to trust anyone. We do this one Day at a time. Each Day the situation can be reevaluated. And the by way, your "prove your alignment" criterion is unrealistic. Very few players can do it. Can you prove your alignment? If not, why should anyone bother to negotiate with you? The answer is we don't need trust to negotiate. We evaluate each Day. And ultimately your attitude (others are displaying it as well) is why there's no cost for me to claim early. Since I can't prove my alignment, I can be lynched by the "they can't prove it" argument at any time, no matter what I claim. Getting lynched Day One is no different than getting lynched Day Four, in terms of winning or not. You have a point...I was perhaps too zealous in insisting on 'proof'. We've all played enough Mafia to know that proof comes only with death. We can certainly negotiate without ironclad proof, and indeed without trust. But what exactly are the terms? You want Town to offer you 'continued existence for the remainder of the game'. And in return you are offering to 'not kill too many of us'. And we just have to take your word for it that when you achieve your win condition, that we don't suffer immediate defeat. Oops...it looks like we do need trust. You have another point, as well, though. It's true that there is no cost for you to claim early. Because as a 3rd-Party/PFK, a claim at any point is pretty much a death sentence. You're too dangerous to let live. We made that mistake a while back (Dr Seuss Mafia) where we allowed a claimed Survivor to live long enough to steal the win because she was actually a Mad Bomber. I'm not going to make that mistake again. Sure, we could let you live a Day or Two, and then lynch you. And we could spend that time discussing whether a 3rd Party lynch is a good think because it's 'not Town' or a bad thing because it's 'not Scum', or whether the extra kills you're certain to cause are justified by the information we'll gather from them, or whether it's better to Lynch 3rd-parties or to Vig them...or we can just get it over with and get on with the business at hand. Oh, please, Pleonast is arguing the use of the language. Yes, no one can prove their alignment. However, for everyone aside from Pleo, I can make the following statement: That player may be Town aligned. For Pleonast, I cannot make that statement. Who do you suspect the most of being Anti-Town? Anyone more than Pleonast? So yes, Pleonast has proven himself to be Not Town, so it does fall to him to demonstrate that we can reasonably assume that he falls in the likely small minority of those player who are not Anti-Town. it's a pity he has that higher burden of proof falling on him, but it's his fault.
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Post by Meeko on Mar 6, 2012 18:32:21 GMT -5
NETA :
So one of the Scum picks that fake claim, and posts "ymndmbygasitmoasakpffim". Then, after everyone has posted their acrostics, I come back and say "The traffic cone is a fake claim". Now that scum is screwed:
This is the section I intended [and thought that I did] bold from Chronos' .
Again, I don't understand how Chronos would ..... know .... that scum would do this.
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Post by Meeko on Mar 6, 2012 18:41:17 GMT -5
Are you claiming Gorton of Gloucester? Wait, so you throw a huge breadcrumb, crouton, loaf, whatever out there. And you accuse me of fishing? I threw out a breadcrumb?
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Post by special on Mar 6, 2012 18:43:04 GMT -5
NETA : So one of the Scum picks that fake claim, and posts "ymndmbygasitmoasakpffim". Then, after everyone has posted their acrostics, I come back and say "The traffic cone is a fake claim". Now that scum is screwed:
This is the section I intended [and thought that I did] bold from Chronos' . Again, I don't understand how Chronos would ..... know .... that scum would do this. I think the implication is this: 1. Storyteller has provided Scum (and probably PFK) with cover roles. 2. Chronos knows that one of the cover roles that storyteller has provided is not a role in the game. 3. If the Scum use an acronym from the role that Chronos knows isn't present, they will be hard-pressed to come up with a new sentence to cover for whatever new role they want to claim. Maybe you're confused by the Traffic Cone. Ignore the Traffic Cone. Imagine Chronos knows that "Catwoman" is not in the game. Now, imagine the Scum have to put forth sentences. Now, they don't want to use their own name, since it is too goody-goody. So they pick Catwoman. And the first sentsence of the role storyteller provided is "You like to wear really tight clothes and meow a lot" So the Scum posts "yltwrtcamal" And when they need to make a new claim, like Mr Freeze or something, they have to make a sentence that fits those letters and appears to be in storyteller's style. Not an easy task.
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