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Post by Silver Jan on Mar 8, 2012 12:36:32 GMT -5
Third Party Players are players that are neither Town- nor Scum-aligned but are not a threat to the win condition of either side; the specifics of each win condition may vary, but third party players can win along with either Town or Scum.
PFK Players are players that are neither Town nor Scum and ARE a threat to the win condition of either side. A PFK player may or may not be able to win alongside some third party players, but if a PFK player wins, then all Town and Scum players do not.
I just thought I would get this out there again, mainly for me.
At the moment we have a benign 3rd Party and a Town aligned Vig. With so many players I think this is possible that there is at least one malignant 3rd party and possibly a PFK. Town is so ready to kill people that talk and lynching lurkers comes up further down the line. In the Conspiracy game the lurker was a bad guy!
At the moment I fear that we are trying to lynch people that could help Town.
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Post by peekercpa on Mar 8, 2012 12:38:48 GMT -5
lightfoot:
the way i parsed that is that in the topsy turvy world of arkham that which is cannonically good is not necessarily so. so the "would be saviors" (those that would by cannon be good) must be stopped since they are not.
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Post by SBrOwn on Mar 8, 2012 12:40:58 GMT -5
But iirc, he was in the last game as well (mhaye pointed out as a possible vote charger). And to be fair, we're at the Chemical Factory, not trapped in Arkham. I think we'll be in different locations for each day probably until we control the pest problem.
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Post by peekercpa on Mar 8, 2012 12:41:57 GMT -5
and if in fact survivors = town (don't know how you reached that conclusion but whatever). then an eyebrow would certainly be raised since i don't think stopping town would lead to a town aligned claim.
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Post by Hal Briston on Mar 8, 2012 12:44:13 GMT -5
Wouldn’t Town be the “ would be <saviors>”? this could well be a doctored PM or do you read it different? Different. Ra's Al Ghul would be dedicated to wiping out much of Gotham City, while the Scum would be the town's saviors. However, by "different", I'm also thinking "cover role".
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Post by Nanook on Mar 8, 2012 12:44:42 GMT -5
The quote doesn't say survivors, the quote says saviors. And savior and survivor are no where near synonyms. The quote fits perfectly well within the canon for Ras, who wants to destroy Gotham for being corrupt, and hates Batman for stopping Ras from destroying it.
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Post by LightFoot on Mar 8, 2012 12:45:44 GMT -5
and if in fact survivors = town (don't know how you reached that conclusion but whatever). then an eyebrow would certainly be raised since i don't think stopping town would lead to a town aligned claim. would-be saviors ( my typo of survivors ) of Gothum read as Town to me the good guys are trying to save the city, right?
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Post by peekercpa on Mar 8, 2012 12:47:11 GMT -5
Third Party Players are players that are neither Town- nor Scum-aligned but are not a threat to the win condition of either side; the specifics of each win condition may vary, but third party players can win along with either Town or Scum. <snipped> otay i'll play. mod question: by not being a "threat to the win condition of either side" is this intended to imply that they can do nothing that will harm either side? because obviously a third party that could kill, even if only once, is a threat since they could eliminate either town or scum which certainly is a threat to their wincons.
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Post by LightFoot on Mar 8, 2012 12:47:59 GMT -5
The quote doesn't say survivors, the quote says saviors. And savior and survivor are no where near synonyms. The quote fits perfectly well within the canon for Ras, who wants to destroy Gotham for being corrupt, and hates Batman for stopping Ras from destroying it. I NETA-ed my miss quote right below it. But destroying Gotham surely is not Town's goal?
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Post by Dirx on Mar 8, 2012 12:48:23 GMT -5
For the record, Texcat made two comments on the Vig discussion (within the first 2 or 3 pages, easy to find), both of which stated that the Vig should do whatever he felt was best, but input from other players was not useless and would in fact provide data points to Town later on. Doesn't have too obvious a bearing on the validity of her claim, but for those curious, that's how she weighed in.
I'm not sure of her claim, because it IS one that a SK or scum could make, and we wouldn't know any better. As Pleo said, we can only test her power, not her alignment at all. I need more time to think about it.
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Post by Nanook on Mar 8, 2012 12:51:02 GMT -5
I NETA-ed my miss quote right below it. But destroying Gotham surely is not Town's goal? Yes I would imagine it is? The whole point of this game is the traditional concepts of good and evil are flipped on their heads. The Town, normally considered the "good guys", are made up of the bad guys from the Batman universe. And the Scum, nominally the "bad guys", are made up of the heroes from Gotham. So yes, Town would want to destroy Gotham. Well, some of Town would. I'm sure all the various villains have their own motivations.
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Post by peekercpa on Mar 8, 2012 12:51:49 GMT -5
the good guys are trying to save the city, right? you are going to have to define "good guys". if you are referring to cannon then not necessarily so.
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Post by Dirx on Mar 8, 2012 12:53:33 GMT -5
The quote doesn't say survivors, the quote says saviors. And savior and survivor are no where near synonyms. The quote fits perfectly well within the canon for Ras, who wants to destroy Gotham for being corrupt, and hates Batman for stopping Ras from destroying it. I NETA-ed my miss quote right below it. But destroying Gotham surely is not Town's goal? The villains won in the last game, and so, story-wise, they're running amuck in Gotham, living it up and turning it into a total hellhole of crime and suck. Now Batman is supposedly back to try and put an end to our dastardly reign. Batman and his dogooders are the scum*, while us villains are town. So, did you forget that Town is composed of a whole bunch of villains? Or are you not one? *Depending, of course. I kinda like the idea of Batman actually being self-aligned this time around, and there's always the possibilty of curveballs with roles that might not necessarily match up expected alignments.
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Post by Pollux Oil on Mar 8, 2012 12:56:11 GMT -5
Y'know, I would have expected an honest claim of Vigilante to have come with some discussion on how that person might use her powers, and how, if at all, she might coordinate with Town ( especially considering the topic that dominated discussion before Pleo's claim). I also would have expected such a claim to come early enough to give us time to discuss such. And no, ten hours isn't enough time for that discussion, if the principle person involved isn't going to be able to be a part of it-- She says that she won't be around for the end of Day, and that she's off to work as of the only post she made after that. We can strategize at Night in this game. There's still time for a discussion if we want to have one.
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Mar 8, 2012 12:58:22 GMT -5
I think I know why we always grate each other every game. Our basic game philosophies are different. Your focus is risk minimization. Mine is opportunity maximization. You're quoting a post where I am quite explicit at considering both risk and opportunity. I focus on both.
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Post by SBrOwn on Mar 8, 2012 12:59:18 GMT -5
But destroying Gotham surely is not Town's goal? Couldn't you just check your own PM to answer this question? But in the last game, the Villians of the Batman world were the "Town", while Batman and other "good guys" in Gotham, were actually the Scum/Mafia roles. The scum were given fake role PMs because in the event of a mass claim, basically all the "good guys" were Mafia, and all the Villians were an assortment of Town, PFK, or other. But there was also a role that would basically win if he convinced the town to mass claim (The Riddler) If Story stuck with the conventions of that game, then one would expect all Villians and "bay guys" of the DC/Batman universe to be Townies, 3rd Parties, PFKs, or Cover PMs. While anyone with a "Heroic/Good guy" role in the universe would be expected to be Scum. The rub was there are certain roles that could swing either way because they've been both baddies and townies (Catwoman, Azareal, TwoFace (well Harvey Dent), The Riddler- are all roles that have at one time or another been "good guys" in the Gotham universe but are also known as being Foes of Batman).
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Post by peekercpa on Mar 8, 2012 12:59:32 GMT -5
the good guys are trying to save the city, right? i think dirx pointed this out but i just have to chime in. huh? you've got you role and alignment and you are confused as to this?
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Post by Gadarene on Mar 8, 2012 12:59:51 GMT -5
Third Party Players are players that are neither Town- nor Scum-aligned but are not a threat to the win condition of either side; the specifics of each win condition may vary, but third party players can win along with either Town or Scum. PFK Players are players that are neither Town nor Scum and ARE a threat to the win condition of either side. A PFK player may or may not be able to win alongside some third party players, but if a PFK player wins, then all Town and Scum players do not. I just thought I would get this out there again, mainly for me. At the moment we have a benign 3rd Party and a Town aligned Vig. With so many players I think this is possible that there is at least one malignant 3rd party and possibly a PFK. Town is so ready to kill people that talk and lynching lurkers comes up further down the line. In the Conspiracy game the lurker was a bad guy! At the moment I fear that we are trying to lynch people that could help Town. Pleonast is not a benign third party.
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Post by Merestil Haye on Mar 8, 2012 13:01:05 GMT -5
Storyteller.
It might be aq good idea to lock this thread and start a Day One Part II thread.
If you remember, we lost nearly half Day 1 of the Firefly game because Proboards gets unstable with very large threads. While I think it unlikely that this thread will be afflicted, there is a risk as the thread grows, especially if we have lots of players reading as Dusk grows near.
(For those who don't know, around the time we reached 1400 posts in Firefly D1, the board blanked. When it came back, something like 600 posts had disappeared forever.)
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Post by special on Mar 8, 2012 13:04:04 GMT -5
and if in fact survivors = town (don't know how you reached that conclusion but whatever). then an eyebrow would certainly be raised since i don't think stopping town would lead to a town aligned claim. would-be saviors ( my typo of survivors ) of Gothum read as Town to me the good guys are trying to save the city, right? WTF Are you a good guy?
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Post by peekercpa on Mar 8, 2012 13:04:43 GMT -5
Pleonast is not a benign third party. woot woot. i am so geeked that i am off today. looks like this puppy could pick up a little steam over the next couple of hours.
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Post by LightFoot on Mar 8, 2012 13:06:16 GMT -5
Blanket comment to all ( no need to quote everyone)
I did not play the first game/ or read it
I entered into this game with an open mind
By “ good guys” I mean Town
And I also think it is narrow thinking to ass/u/me that a character’s name will be any indication of their alignment.
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Post by Pleonast on Mar 8, 2012 13:07:28 GMT -5
I've submitted my action order: ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ I will use my Day-kill power. If I am set to be lynched, I will target Mr Special Ed. If someone else is set to be lynched, I will target whoever has the most votes that isn't me or the lynchee. If there's a tie, I'll use the official tie-breaking rule. ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ If it isn't obvious, it was me who requested a contingent order. This makes it easier for players who can't be online right at Dusk. So we have a player of unknown alignment who claims to be able to kill someone of their own choice every Night. And we have a player of unknown alignment who claims to have a grabbag of powers that can kill indirectly. Which is a more direct threat to town? nope. we have a player with a claimed town alignment that has a discretionary ability to act in town's best interest and we have a player of claimed not town alignment with an ability that will be used in town's interest as long as we do what they say. You say "nope", but nothing you posted refutes what I said. ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ I'm not sure why players are trying to parse "goodguy" or "badguy" from texcat's claim. The moderator has stated that color does not effect the game. And the moderator is smart enough not to design an obvious alignment into role names--it would be too easy to break the game by doing a mass name claim. Pleonast is not a benign third party. Are you claiming a Day investigation power?
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Post by Suburban Plankton on Mar 8, 2012 13:08:42 GMT -5
And you'll note that I can't kill players directly, except for the one-shot power I'm using ToDay (and giving Town the option to choose the target). All of my other powers are reactive or depend on someone else to choose the target. <snip> Note that I only have one power to directly kill. Umm...no. As has been previously noted, you have already received the required 25% of possible votes Today, so you can charge yourself with 'Paranoia' to gain a Day Kill Today. You can use this power Today, leaving you free to use the 'Killing Joke' Tomorrow Of course, I guess it's possible that you need to use this ability at the beginning of the Day (or possibly the Night before), but that's not clear from the text. I wouldn't want to bet on your being unable to use it Today, though. Also, there's There is nothing in the description for 'The Mask' that indicates you cannot cast it on yourself, giving you both Nighttime Immunity and a reciprocal Kill. True, you can't direct this kill yourself, but that's OK, because you really don't care who dies as long as it isn't you.
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Post by special on Mar 8, 2012 13:10:59 GMT -5
Vigilantes role blockers and many many others may also cause damage to town. Even town voting for other town is damaging. Protecting a scum the big targeted hurts town.
Think only of he win conditions:
Town may win alone or with 3rd parties
Scum may win alone or with 3rd parties
3rd parties may win with anyone
PFK may win alone or with other PFKs or 3rd party.
Powers have nothing I do with alignment.
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Post by Dirx on Mar 8, 2012 13:14:40 GMT -5
If someone else is set to be lynched, I will target whoever has the most votes that isn't me or the lynchee. If there's a tie, I'll use the official tie-breaking rule.You know, if you'd said something along those lines earlier when I asked, I would have gone a bit easier on you. Your complete dismissal of the subject was what I saw as a complete lack of desire to cooperate beyond an unacceptably minimum effort.
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Post by Hal Briston on Mar 8, 2012 13:14:54 GMT -5
But destroying Gotham surely is not Town's goal? Couldn't you just check your own PM to answer this question? Likely, no. My wincon is "WIN CONDITION: All Scum and PFK (if any) are neutralized", and nowhere in my role PM does the word "Gotham" nor anything about destroying the town appear. So then...does your PM mention destroying Gotham, or are you just guessing as to what a town PM contains?
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Post by special on Mar 8, 2012 13:16:17 GMT -5
I'm trying not to weigh my personal survival into what I do. But that's difficult as I know I am town and can help town win.
Bit if we decide Pleo should die, it's not that awful. However, of we have a Day protector, It might be worth it to try to save me. it will keep me around and it should help delay pleo reaching his win condition.
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Post by Gadarene on Mar 8, 2012 13:20:11 GMT -5
Are you claiming a Day investigation power? No, I'm claiming that by your own admission you have to kill at least one townie to win, and that you will (IMHO) inevitably kill more. As I've explained already.
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Post by SBrOwn on Mar 8, 2012 13:21:16 GMT -5
So then...does your PM mention destroying Gotham, or are you just guessing as to what a town PM contains? I'm referring to the Flavor of the PM, not the win condition. My flavor indicates which way the Town should be, and it def. doesn't have Batman on that side.
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