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Day One
Dec 16, 2009 13:22:47 GMT -5
Post by peekercpa on Dec 16, 2009 13:22:47 GMT -5
sorry, what is your reason for voting here? Not understanding your explanation. basically like tom said. it sounded like he was fishing. i mean he doesn't want to know how his role worked. he is just "looking for information on recruiting." and since he is confident that he hasn't been recruited this is the only time he "can thus trust your answer". he then follows up in 156 with a pretty reasoned dissertation on recruiting but he is "mostly trying to confirm or deny that theory in asking Tom Scum that question." now i just don't know how tom can provide much more information without being kind of specific about his role. both of these observations are after tom has basically said that he has said all that he is going to say.
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Day One
Dec 16, 2009 13:26:41 GMT -5
Post by peekercpa on Dec 16, 2009 13:26:41 GMT -5
Peeker, what was your reasoning in commenting to Tom that you wished he hadn't talked about recruitment? Your posts on the topic don't seem to mesh with the only rationale that makes sense to me, so what were you thinking at that point? i don't think i said that about recruitment in general. i was referring (if i am thinking of the post you are referencing #31) to his elaboration of his powers. i understand that he is town but is sounded really magic baggy to me and i am unsure what it was meant to accomplish. i just didn't see the reason for that bit of information in the post where he was agreeing to being the designated hammer.
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Day One
Dec 16, 2009 14:59:42 GMT -5
Post by Sister Coyote on Dec 16, 2009 14:59:42 GMT -5
He may have figured that getting the information out there as a confirmed-by-mod Townie was a good idea, thinking that Town needs to know that there is some sort of recruitment mechanism.
I honestly don't know.
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Day One
Dec 16, 2009 15:03:32 GMT -5
Post by Natlaw on Dec 16, 2009 15:03:32 GMT -5
On the case against Hawk: Technically, it's possible that I've already been recruited by a Day power (that seems gastardly, but in a no-vanilla game, who knows what the balancing issues might be). And intentionally or not, you are in effect asking me to reveal more of my role's powers than I've already indicated. For reference this is what Tom disclosed: Also, I'll say there is very likely to be recruitment in this game, as I have a power that interacts with recruitment in a manner that I will not disclose at this time. And this is what Hawk asked: You never answered my question. Do you have reason to believe that you can't be trusted beyond Day 1? Which is basically asking: are you immune to recruitment or is can a recruited town be trusted to be still town (as Hawk later argued with recruit might give an additional win condition like the war/peace suggested). The first is important information to a recruiter since normally you would want to recruit some investigated (or mod revealed in this case), but if immune you don't want to waste a recruit attempt on him. The second is might be useful information in case there is some sort of additional win condition on recruitment, but I would say a scum (who in that case might not have the recruit power) would want to know more than town. But I do think Hawkeye's question is also valid for town to ask: can we trust declared town Tom Scud after Today with the scepter of recruitment around? Finding out who is town and who is scum is the goal of the game (for town). Although it is possible he got recruited after the Day opening post, I think it unlikely Tom is already recruited, so I'll trust his decision to not reveal more at the moment. But Hawk also accepted this as answer. And in that light I noticed the following: now i just don't know how tom can provide much more information without being kind of specific about his role. both of these observations are after tom has basically said that he has said all that he is going to say. He wasn't re-asking the question but defending why he asked it in the first place. peekercpa, you're twisting Hawk's post here in my opinion.
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Day One
Dec 16, 2009 15:23:32 GMT -5
Post by Natlaw on Dec 16, 2009 15:23:32 GMT -5
I'm not sure I like the subtle undermining of Mr. Stark so quickly out of the gate. What do you think of Inner Stickler's subtle undermining of Tom in the post quoted above? Why respond to Bill and not to IS? As long as we're asking for opinions, is this 1 also undermining of Tom by special ed (who voted for Pollux for undermining): 1 First line specifically but I'm trying not to snip too much when quotes as it'll bite me again Of course, if Tom is recruitable, he may want to keep his options open, eh? Or Tom might have some defense against recruitment and may be hoping to be a target Or any of a number of other reasons he might have to keep quiet.
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Day One
Dec 16, 2009 15:30:39 GMT -5
Post by Natlaw on Dec 16, 2009 15:30:39 GMT -5
To be clear, nphase was asking Pollux about this post by Inner Stickler (the first paragraph I assume). Which comes after Pollux's post so we can answers nphase question ourselves: IS hadn't posted it yet so of course it couldn't have been responded to in an earlier post!
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Day One
Dec 16, 2009 15:35:25 GMT -5
Post by Natlaw on Dec 16, 2009 15:35:25 GMT -5
Correction: special ed (me too) voted for Pollux for accusing BillMc to be undermining Tom Scud. So special ed quote is the contradiction I thought it was.
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Day One
Dec 16, 2009 16:15:02 GMT -5
Post by BillMc on Dec 16, 2009 16:15:02 GMT -5
Recruitment - any chance this could be a two way thing - not just a scum power? As in, a townie could pull someone off the scum team and make them town? Don't think so, as the now-townie player would have a slight advantage in knowing exactly who his former scum-teammates are. The game that just finished on FB had a lot of recruitment -- a primary mason group finding/recruiting a secondary mason group (mod confirmed); the scum (unbeknownst) recruiting one of the masons.....and that mason turning scum traitor - so the primary masons knew who the scum were.....all by the 100th post of the game on Day 1....and all but one scum dead by lunchtime on Day 2. All we can really say about recruitment in this game, if it does indeed exist, it will be "fair" -- and given Story's previous acerbic comments on recruitment, I will most likely not involve skulduggery in the recruitment. As Pollux mentioned, it's plausible that there are town characters/roles that are immune to recruitment.
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Day One
Dec 16, 2009 16:23:48 GMT -5
Post by Renata on Dec 16, 2009 16:23:48 GMT -5
Argh! If that wasn't bad enough on my part I noticed while digging up other things today that peeker ALSO made similar comments, so my question would have been somewhat misdirected in any case. I still have not gotten the hang of the multiquoting thingie on this site, and am constantly winding up with rearranged and dropped comments when I attempt summaries. Bah. I'll re-check tomorrow to clarify if I still think there's anything there worth questioning.
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Day One
Dec 16, 2009 16:43:30 GMT -5
Post by Renata on Dec 16, 2009 16:43:30 GMT -5
peeker, something’s weird about your whole approach to the topic of recruitment. For example, these two posts: <font style="font-size: 12px;">
Recruitment ... blergh. What are Storyteller's "particular prejudices"?
As far as I can remember, storyteller hates recruitment based on the idea that you can spend the entire game being pro-town and nailing scum to the wall, only to end up on the losing side because of recruitment.ding ding ding, i think we have a winner. exactly the same post i was going to make just a little more comprehensible. matter of fact i believe that story has expressed such disdain for recruitment as i understand it that if it exists in a game he will even refuse to play. so while i wouldn't put it past the bastard to have some sort of recruitment mechanism i seriously doubt it will be tag you are switch alignment. <font style="font-size: 12px;">
All we know for certain, is that Tom Scud is Iron Man, and he was Town at the first post. All we know beyond that is, if there is recruitment, it will be "fair" by whatever measure Story decides "fair" is.
I hate to speculate based on color. But from what I know of the Marvel: Civil War is Iron Man is the leader of one side, and Captain America is the leader of the other. I would think that Iron Man would be immune to being recruited to the other side since he's the leader. After all, he is Tony Stark. Drunken binging and public indecency, sure. Switching sides? Ehhhh.
I'm not sure I like the subtle undermining of Mr. Stark so quickly out of the gate.but we just don't know. and putting a heck of lot of anything on cannon i think is a really bad strategy. maybe even more so with story. because he's tricksy, don't yaknow. i think it was ped (god rest his soul) that mentioned upthread about our mods aversion to the typical recruitment mechanism. while our mod may be very coy about whether it may or may not exist the fact that he even mentioned it makes me go hmmm. also, with tom including it as part of his character makes it very likely that it exists in this game. in what form, i have no clue. but i think it myopic to believe otherwise. so i find your subtle support of tom in regards to bill's post to be potentially short sighted. This is well after Storyteller’s statement on recruiting in this game has been re-posted, so there should be zero doubt that it exists in the game, yet you’re still talking as if it’s not certain. Why? As for your original comment to Tom's statement, you say it was because of his “magic bag”. That at least makes more sense in the context of your other posts than what I previously thought you might be getting at. However, I fail to see why any member of Town should want to complain about magic bags, given Tom’s current status. Shouldn’t confirmed Town (and that’s inarguably what Tom is for today, unless you subscribe to the idea that Storyteller would have allowed Day One recruitment of his newly-minted Obvious Town just for funsies) get some latitude on that score? Why, then, was your initial reaction to think “I don’t like magic bags” as opposed to “thanks for the information” or even “eek, I hope you didn’t just give away too much there”? I find it mildly suspect in itself that this is the first place your mind went, though not enough for a vote. However, I think your vote for Hawkmod is. To list the reasons: -- I’ve never liked “X is fishing” as a reason for voting for someone; I think it’s unreliable as a Scum tell *and* common/easy for Scum to use against Town, which is a bad combination. -- It was a blatant “me too” at the time it was made, despite your later justifications. You’ve shown difficulty in the past (CIAS’s game) in coming up with well-reasoned votes when you are Scum. -- Hawkmod’s position on Tom is not actually very different from yours. Neither of you is satisfied with the lack of full role information, and both of you have (now) made that clear. The only difference is he’s been more open about it. He asked directly for more information; you did not, keeping yourself to only "that was unnecessary" until I asked you about it. If you’re questioning Tom’s motives and future reliability yourself, as you’ve since made clear you are, you can’t be suspicious of Hawkmod's mindset, per se, as Tom himself is. So despite the “me too”, for you it really is ONLY about the fishing. (Personally I think both of you are wrongheaded on this, whether you’re Scum, third party or not. Confirmed Town gets some perks in this game, or they should anyway (and this ought to apply to Tom for toDay), and one of those should be that they get the leeway to do half-reveals without magic bag complaints or fishing. So “bah” to you both if you are Town.) vote: peeker[/color]
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Day One
Dec 16, 2009 16:45:11 GMT -5
Post by Renata on Dec 16, 2009 16:45:11 GMT -5
Oh, for god's sake the size 2 fonts. I hate this site sometimes. Sorry, Idle.
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Day One
Dec 16, 2009 17:13:22 GMT -5
Post by peekercpa on Dec 16, 2009 17:13:22 GMT -5
This is well after Storyteller’s statement on recruiting in this game has been re-posted, so there should be zero doubt that it exists in the game, yet you’re still talking as if it’s not certain. Why? As for your original comment to Tom's statement, you say it was because of his “magic bag”. That at least makes more sense in the context of your other posts than what I previously thought you might be getting at. However, I fail to see why any member of Town should want to complain about magic bags, given Tom’s current status. Shouldn’t confirmed Town (and that’s inarguably what Tom is for today, unless you subscribe to the idea that Storyteller would have allowed Day One recruitment of his newly-minted Obvious Town just for funsies) get some latitude on that score? Why, then, was your initial reaction to think “I don’t like magic bags” as opposed to “thanks for the information” or even “eek, I hope you didn’t just give away too much there”? I find it mildly suspect in itself that this is the first place your mind went, though not enough for a vote. However, I think your vote for Hawkmod is. To list the reasons: -- I’ve never liked “X is fishing” as a reason for voting for someone; I think it’s unreliable as a Scum tell *and* common/easy for Scum to use against Town, which is a bad combination. -- It was a blatant “me too” at the time it was made, despite your later justifications. You’ve shown difficulty in the past (CIAS’s game) in coming up with well-reasoned votes when you are Scum. -- Hawkmod’s position on Tom is not actually very different from yours. Neither of you is satisfied with the lack of full role information, and both of you have (now) made that clear. The only difference is he’s been more open about it. He asked directly for more information; you did not, keeping yourself to only "that was unnecessary" until I asked you about it. If you’re questioning Tom’s motives and future reliability yourself, as you’ve since made clear you are, you can’t be suspicious of Hawkmod's mindset, per se, as Tom himself is. So despite the “me too”, for you it really is ONLY about the fishing. (Personally I think both of you are wrongheaded on this, whether you’re Scum, third party or not. Confirmed Town gets some perks in this game, or they should anyway (and this ought to apply to Tom for toDay), and one of those should be that they get the leeway to do half-reveals without magic bag complaints or fishing. So “bah” to you both if you are Town.) vote: peeker[/color] [/quote] i think i have been clear. if there is "recruitment" in this game(and i tend to believe so more than not) it will be not in the normal sense, in my opinion. the tag you are switch alignment would go against everything story has espoused. whether this means some Day mechanism or some Night mechanism i have no clue. but i think the "whose side will you choose" seems to indicate some sort of voluntary conversion. what i said about tom was that yes it sounded magic baggy but coming from confirmed town (for now) i was unclear what it was attempting to accomplish. i mean why say anything. read 31 again. uh, tom i am unsure that this was necessary at this point in time. My quote above. sure it's baggy but where in that post does it look like i am giving him grief about that. it's clear to me it was more a wtf than any type of gritch. ymmv and so far hawk is the best candidate in my mind. is he perfect no, but he is the best so far for me. and i don't think my position and hawks in regard to tom are remotely similar. i mean tom will share or he won't. and i was giving tom a "perk" because of his mod confirmed status. that's why i was much more puzzled by the why of his comment as opposed to its depth (breadth). i mean if i had any concern about tom i certainly would be a lot more confrontational with him than none.
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Day One
Dec 16, 2009 18:10:39 GMT -5
Post by special on Dec 16, 2009 18:10:39 GMT -5
Correction: special ed (me too) voted for Pollux for accusing BillMc to be undermining Tom Scud. So special ed quote is the contradiction I thought it was. Natlaw, can you clarify your post 184-186 for me? I know they involve me, and I just can't parse them to determine if a response is warranted.
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Day One
Dec 16, 2009 19:10:18 GMT -5
Post by Gir! on Dec 16, 2009 19:10:18 GMT -5
basically like tom said. it sounded like he was fishing. and so far hawk is the best candidate in my mind. is he perfect no, but he is the best so far for me. and i don't think my position and hawks in regard to tom are remotely similar. i mean tom will share or he won't. and i was giving tom a "perk" because of his mod confirmed status. that's why i was much more puzzled by the why of his comment as opposed to its depth (breadth). i mean if i had any concern about tom i certainly would be a lot more confrontational with him than none. Okay, that's all nice and tied together now. Which brings up my followup question: If you truly felt that Hawk was the best candidate, based on the alleged Fishing Incident, why did you not say so when you voted? You didn't even go so far as to say you were voting based on tom's reasoning, you said you were voting because: ok, i'll play. if tom is good enough for a hammer then what the hey, he's gotta be good enough for a get go, right? i mean seriously. vote hawk(vote bleached by me) Not because you thought tom had a case, but just because some of the players think a Confirmed Townie is/might be a good choice to place hammer votes.
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Day One
Dec 16, 2009 21:32:02 GMT -5
Post by Pollux Oil on Dec 16, 2009 21:32:02 GMT -5
Post 70 of Pollux where he defended Tom Scuds character by suggesting he was unrecruitable. To suggest that based on comic book history is one thing, to suggest others were subtly undermining a (as of the moment) confirmed townie is a big old smudge. ...you do realize what you just said here, right? You just voted for me, for "smudging" somebody who was smudging a confirmed town? Let's take a look here. First post of the game, Story says: Tom Scud is Iron Man, and he is Town. BillMc says: All we know for certain, is that Tom Scud is Iron Man, and he was Town at the first post. All we know beyond that is, if there is recruitment, it will be "fair" by whatever measure Story decides "fair" is. How is this not at least a semi-smudge, exactly? Why is it that the guy in the tin foil hat who is screaming "The recruiters can be anywhere!!!" gets off scot-free by you, while the guy who points out "hey, this may not be a good train of thought to follow" is the one who is called out for smudging? Furthermore... OSo, let's get this party started. I can both vote for a low poster AND get someone into the vote lead at Threshhold-5! What. Seriously? I...I can't even respond to this. Makes no sense. Bad braining thought. What do you think of Inner Stickler's subtle undermining of Tom in the post quoted above? Why respond to Bill and not to IS? My chief objection to Bill's statement was he was implying that beyond the first post of the game, we can't trust that Tom Scud is town. I find that to be taking things a bit too far. Yes, I floated the idea that Iron Man is unrecruitable due to the fact that he's the leader of the pro-registration forces in the comics. I find this a likely possibility. But it's still possible he can be. However, thinking about what story thinks of recruiting, I personally don't believe he'd make a character that was announced as town to be recruitable. What I also find highly unlikely is that the scum can recruit mid-Day. I really don't like the idea of trying to undermine Tom from his very first post. I just don't think story would make recruitment like that.
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Day One
Dec 16, 2009 21:39:24 GMT -5
Post by special on Dec 16, 2009 21:39:24 GMT -5
I don't think we need to worry. After 5 1/2 days, we're already at 2 votes on one person. At this rate, Day 1 should only last a little more than 19 days.
I think now I understnad why mafiascum games always start with random or joke votes. Without them, nothing would ever happen
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Day One
Dec 16, 2009 22:15:24 GMT -5
Post by Hal Briston on Dec 16, 2009 22:15:24 GMT -5
What. Seriously? I...I can't even respond to this. Makes no sense. Bad braining thought. What's not to understand? "I can both vote for a low poster AND get someone into the vote lead at Threshhold-5!" = "No one has more than one vote on them, so my #2 vote means they're five votes away from a lynching".
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Day One
Dec 16, 2009 22:15:47 GMT -5
Post by peekercpa on Dec 16, 2009 22:15:47 GMT -5
basically like tom said. it sounded like he was fishing. Okay, that's all nice and tied together now. Which brings up my followup question: If you truly felt that Hawk was the best candidate, based on the alleged Fishing Incident, why did you not say so when you voted? You didn't even go so far as to say you were voting based on tom's reasoning, you said you were voting because: ok, i'll play. if tom is good enough for a hammer then what the hey, he's gotta be good enough for a get go, right? i mean seriously. vote hawk(vote bleached by me) Not because you thought tom had a case, but just because some of the players think a Confirmed Townie is/might be a good choice to place hammer votes. oh for goodness sakes. what in the world are you talking about. i voted the way i did because it makes sense, to me. what you are saying is categorically not true. tom is town for now i believe. i thought hawk was fishing inappropriately. i voted for him. yeh, you are right, apparently i am not clear enough and verbose enough for some of you. hey, if you want to disagree with me i am cool with that. i think it is misguided, but whatever. i put down a personally accountible timeframe for getting a vote down. is it perfect, maybe so maybe no. but at least i am willing to go on the record. shoot, maybe it is war/peace all over again.
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Day One
Dec 16, 2009 22:18:42 GMT -5
Post by storyteller0910 on Dec 16, 2009 22:18:42 GMT -5
VOTE COUNT (12.16) - 10:20 PM EST
hawkmod - 2 (tomscud - #149, peekercpa - #171) Pollux Oil - 2 (Precambrian Mollusc - #162, Special Ed - #169) sinjin - 1 (drainbead - #113) drainbead - 1 (hawkmod - #142) Precambrian Mollusc - 1 (Hal Briston - #176) Special Ed - 1 (texcat - #178)
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Day One
Dec 16, 2009 22:24:13 GMT -5
Post by tomscud on Dec 16, 2009 22:24:13 GMT -5
He may have figured that getting the information out there as a confirmed-by-mod Townie was a good idea, thinking that Town needs to know that there is some sort of recruitment mechanism. That was my idea, after checking that story's setup post didn't say definitively that there was. BTW, I've been away from home till late the last couple days so I've had even less time to look at this thread than I'd expected. I'll take another look before the weekend and see if anyone besides Hawk stands out for me -- unfortunately, I tend to kind of suck at making early cases.
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Day One
Dec 17, 2009 0:51:35 GMT -5
Post by PrecambrianMollusc on Dec 17, 2009 0:51:35 GMT -5
Post 70 of Pollux where he defended Tom Scuds character by suggesting he was unrecruitable. To suggest that based on comic book history is one thing, to suggest others were subtly undermining a (as of the moment) confirmed townie is a big old smudge. ...you do realize what you just said here, right? You just voted for me, for "smudging" somebody who was smudging a confirmed town? Let's take a look here. First post of the game, Story says: BillMc says: How is this not at least a semi-smudge, exactly? Why is it that the guy in the tin foil hat who is screaming "The recruiters can be anywhere!!!" gets off scot-free by you, while the guy who points out "hey, this may not be a good train of thought to follow" is the one who is called out for smudging? Furthermore... What. Seriously? I...I can't even respond to this. Makes no sense. Bad braining thought. What do you think of Inner Stickler's subtle undermining of Tom in the post quoted above? Why respond to Bill and not to IS? My chief objection to Bill's statement was he was implying that beyond the first post of the game, we can't trust that Tom Scud is town. I find that to be taking things a bit too far. Yes, I floated the idea that Iron Man is unrecruitable due to the fact that he's the leader of the pro-registration forces in the comics. I find this a likely possibility. But it's still possible he can be. However, thinking about what story thinks of recruiting, I personally don't believe he'd make a character that was announced as town to be recruitable. What I also find highly unlikely is that the scum can recruit mid-Day. I really don't like the idea of trying to undermine Tom from his very first post. I just don't think story would make recruitment like that. BillMc simply stated that all we know is that as of now TomScud is town, and that may not be true for the rest of the game. In any game with recruitment, this is a good thing to keep in mind. It is not a smudge of Tom, just a statement of a possibility. You countered that you think for several reasons TomScud is unrecruitable, great, I don't think you are scum because of that, different opinions on how the recruitment may work and who it may affect are good discussions. What you did go on to do was to state that you didn't like people undermining TomScud because they have a different opinion in how recruitment may work. In your last post you also said 'Why is it that the guy in the tin foil hat who is screaming "The recruiters can be anywhere' What's with the over the top miss-characterization - the discussion is on who is capable of being recruited, not who or how many the recruiters are. On the subject of Tom Scuds recruitablity - you said yopu reasons for not thinking Tom was recruitable was based on comic book lore. In the original sign up thread Story said that knowledge of comic books was not needed. Given that we have a mod confirmed town straight out the gate with possible recruitment I would suggest that being able to determine the recruitable status (or be aware of it) of the confirmed town is a fairly critical game issue. To have that resolved by specific knowledge of comic book lore seams contrary to Storys statment that no comic book knowledge is needed. I don't think you are scummy because you have different opinions on TomScud, I think you are scummy because you smudged people bacause they held a different opinion to you. Sure not a great case, but what ya gonna do on day one? NBC
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Day One
Dec 17, 2009 9:52:53 GMT -5
Post by Hal Briston on Dec 17, 2009 9:52:53 GMT -5
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Day One
Dec 17, 2009 9:58:34 GMT -5
Post by Natlaw on Dec 17, 2009 9:58:34 GMT -5
Storyteller: does this vote not count? I didn't check if the entire count was correct (in case of a Hijack situation), but am missing this one in the votecount. Natlaw, can you clarify your post 184-186 for me? I know they involve me, and I just can't parse them to determine if a response is warranted. 184 - nphase asking why Pollux picked BillMc to respond to instead of other undermining statements. So I included one of yours and noted you were also voting for the undermining thing. 185 - on rereading the posts involved, Pollux had posted directly after BillMc so couldn't have responded to later posts in the post nphase challenged him on. 186 - On reading your reason to vote ( PCM's actually, not the low poster / already has a vote reason), your undermining line actually matches your vote (in that you like BillMc kept the options open with regards to Tom Scum/recruitment, thus Pollux supposed smudge could apply to you as well). So doesn't really warrant a response, except perhaps from Pollux if he thinks you and IS (in the post pointed out by nphase) are also undermining Tom Scud as BillMc did.
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Day One
Dec 17, 2009 10:25:02 GMT -5
Post by storyteller0910 on Dec 17, 2009 10:25:02 GMT -5
Dammit!
VOTE COUNT (12.17) - 10:20 AM EST
hawkmod - 2 (tomscud - #149, peekercpa - #171) Pollux Oil - 2 (Precambrian Mollusc - #162, Special Ed - #169) sinjin - 1 (drainbead - #113) drainbead - 1 (hawkmod - #142) Precambrian Mollusc - 1 (Hal Briston - #176) Special Ed - 1 (texcat - #178) peekercpa - 1 (nphase - #189)
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Day One
Dec 17, 2009 10:38:03 GMT -5
Post by PrecambrianMollusc on Dec 17, 2009 10:38:03 GMT -5
sorry that should have been PCM, I am NBC on the dope, had just been posting there as well and had the sign off stuck in my head. I probably need to kick the signing off habit at some point as well. On a plane south for the next 24 hours, honestly can't think of any reason to change my vote for now.
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Day One
Dec 17, 2009 12:55:29 GMT -5
Post by BillMc on Dec 17, 2009 12:55:29 GMT -5
How is this not at least a semi-smudge, exactly? Why is it that the guy in the tin foil hat who is screaming "The recruiters can be anywhere!!!" gets off scot-free by you, while the guy who points out "hey, this may not be a good train of thought to follow" is the one who is called out for smudging? .... My chief objection to Bill's statement was he was implying that beyond the first post of the game, we can't trust that Tom Scud is town. I find that to be taking things a bit too far. Yes, I floated the idea that Iron Man is unrecruitable due to the fact that he's the leader of the pro-registration forces in the comics. I find this a likely possibility. But it's still possible he can be. However, thinking about what story thinks of recruiting, I personally don't believe he'd make a character that was announced as town to be recruitable. What I also find highly unlikely is that the scum can recruit mid-Day. I really don't like the idea of trying to undermine Tom from his very first post. I just don't think story would make recruitment like that. I'm not undermining anything. It's a simple statement of facts: - As of the first post we know Tom is Town - We know that there may be recruitment, and if there is, it will be "fair" by whatever measure Story considers fair. - We do not know what the mechanism for recruitment is, (if it exists) under what circumstances or when it could be used. - We do not know for certain whether anyone is immune to recruitment (if it exists) - We do not know whether Tom will remain town So calling a statement of facts a "smudge" is kinda clutching. On the other hand, you do seem to be fairly sure in your speculation that there is indeed recruitment, that it is not a day action and that Tom is non-recruitable --- based on your knowledge in the Marvel canon, and your metagamey interpretation of what Story would and wouldn't do.
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Day One
Dec 17, 2009 13:55:49 GMT -5
Post by Sister Coyote on Dec 17, 2009 13:55:49 GMT -5
On the other hand, you do seem to be fairly sure in your speculation that there is indeed recruitment, that it is not a day action and that Tom is non-recruitable --- based on your knowledge in the Marvel canon, and your metagamey interpretation of what Story would and wouldn't do. Why shouldn't there be certainty about recruitment? After all, Tom said: Also, I'll say there is very likely to be recruitment in this game, as I have a power that interacts with recruitment in a manner that I will not disclose at this time. And someone else observed that story isn't fond of recruitment but that the possibility of a recruitment mechanism is in the rules? Now, admittedly, I wouldn't be willing to assume tom is unrecruitable, nor would I be willing to base much on what little I know about canon, but I think at this point either one of two things is true: 1) Story gave tom scud a power that will never be used because there is no recruitment and he's messing with our heads, or 2) There is some sort of recruitment in the game. Now, whether that's third-party recruitment, Scum recruitment, or something I haven't thought of yet remains to be seen. Regardless, I think option 2 is much more likely than option 1, don't you? DOn't see much point in speculating on whys and wherefores of how recruitment could/would work. Based on colour I think it is likely we will have to deal with recruitment, that's all I mean to convey. I'm not sure what extra content you would expect. On Day one, I think this discussion is a distraction. Okay. I do not like this. I do not like anything that smacks of "Oh, we shouldn't discuss this." Town needs to discuss everything, because the more discussion there is, the more information Town has to assess what the Hell is going on, and who can or can't be trusted. Stifling discussion is not in Town's best interest, and I think is Scummy play. Vote: vote luvbwfc As far as recruitment, for the moment I think any recruitment roles out there focus on doing what they're supposed to do. Everyone else can probably put it in the back of their minds for now. We don't need to work ourselves into a tizzy over a potentiality. That said, this bothers me, IS. Maybe you meant something different than the way I'm parsing this, so could you clarify your thinking? (And, another "oh, this isn't important to discuss now.")
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Day One
Dec 17, 2009 14:16:52 GMT -5
Post by Inner Stickler on Dec 17, 2009 14:16:52 GMT -5
I dunno. I mean, since presumably no one has been recruited yet, we have no info about how it works. I mean, any protown powers involved with recruiting may have some info but obviously it's not worth it for them to claim on Day one. And of course any scum recruiters can't be trusted. Not that we'd know who is scum and who is town. We can discuss it, sure. I'm just not sure of the worth of said discussion.
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Day One
Dec 17, 2009 15:21:39 GMT -5
Post by Drain Bead on Dec 17, 2009 15:21:39 GMT -5
Eh, we may not be sure of what the discussion is worth now, but it may turn out to mean something later.
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Day One
Dec 17, 2009 15:47:37 GMT -5
Post by Hawkmod on Dec 17, 2009 15:47:37 GMT -5
There are always complaints that "X" is not worth discussing on Day 1. It begs the questions, what exactly does one think we should be talking about. Are we going to learn anything by discussing recruitment? Perhaps, not. However, we certainly aren't going to learn anything by twiddling virtual thumbs. Any discussion is a chance for scum to slip up. Speculating also gives the opportunity for people who know information to reveal it in a way that doesn't confirm their knowledge.
As for giving Tom Scud the benefit of the doubt, I do that by not voting to lynch him. Further, I trust that he is capable of figuring out what questions he should or should not answer, and don't believe asking him anything will cause him to reveal something he didn't intend to.
There are generally two types of information in Mafia games. There is alignment, which the town cares greatly about and the scum generally already know. Then there are abilities in which the town is apathetic towards, but the scum consider very important. I will always want to know as much information as possible in order to figure out a person's alignment. At times these two goals intercede. Knowing someone is a doctor, gives me information about alignment, but also the scum about power. It is up to each individual to figure out which scale any reveal of information would tilt towards.
I do not not know which way the scales tilt for Tom. It is possible that Story used a confirmed townie to provide information to the town. It is possible that the scum already know if Tom is recruitable, so the information could only help town. And it certainly possible that Tom believes that not revealing whether he is recruitable (power knowledge) outweighs any alignment knowledge gain for town. I make my case as to why the information is important for town, and leave it to him to make a final decision with the additional facts he has. If you are going to lynch me for trying to get information on how this game works, then you are going to lynch me every game I ever play.
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