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Post by Mad The Swine on Oct 12, 2007 11:03:04 GMT -5
Their argument seemed staged. You know, I heard this in Asylum Lane, when our argument was not staged, and I've heard it a few times here, when it is not staged. I am curious - what seems staged to you? This is not a rhetorical question. What about our arguments against one another seem fake or preplanned? Because this meme has to die. This has been a circular argument since the first time I heard it, and it remains so toDay. You don't even have a real reason for suspecting me, other than that I am still playing the game and I argued with you. Not much to respond to here. If I were scum...I would lobby to kill you straight away. I would feel you are a threat.
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Post by Mad The Swine on Oct 12, 2007 11:10:49 GMT -5
* Though stupidity would still sound better, I'm replacing it with a word that more accurately implies how I use it and not potentially hurt anyone's feelings Gee....thanks
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Post by Blaster Master on Oct 12, 2007 11:13:29 GMT -5
1. DiomedesTo date, most of the arguments for suspecting Diomedes seem to be that his investigations haven't yet uncovered scum. Given that my very rough estimations suggest that he had a 22% chance of catching a killer last Night, and less than that on previous Nights, I think expecting him to have automatically found scum in that time is unfair. Heck, if he were scum, mightn't he have thrown one of his fellows to the wolves just to cement his place as a trusted Crew member? But toDay's report bothered me. Here's what Diomedessays: He "discovered a town power role." Now, unless I'm misunderstanding, Dio has claimed to be a watcher-type, not an investigator. He would not have gotten a PM that said " So and So is a pro-town Such and Such." He would have received a PM that a certain player did a certain thing, with no indication of alignment. Why, then, is Diomedes certain that the player in question is pro-town? After some consideration, it strikes me that if Dio is telling the truth, a bit of thought about the nature of his powers and the current situation strongly suggests that there's only one role-type he could have discovered. That player - the player who holds that role-type - now has the key to whether Dio is telling the truth. Because the subject of Dio's investigation not only knows what (s)he did last Night, but also who (s)he did it to. This isn't important now, because that person is still hidden. But it may come into play in the future, and I wanted to say something about it in case I'm dead when it comes up. What gets me about this, is that this is definitely a poor way to express his power. If I had such a role, and I encountered a pro-town role, I would have reported the individual, and simply said "I saw nothing" with the unlying implication being that, either you didn't see anything OR you saw something, but it was not in the best interest of the town to say what you saw. A good example of this would be MHaye's actions in MV, where he simply identified people as town, and when sachetorte's indentity came into question, he was able to verify. In this case, if you had watched a specific player, then he later is forced to claim, you would then be forced to verify or deny what part of his claim you could. Instead, you can simply claim you did or didn't watch whoever you want and, if you're scum, use it whenever it's convenient to gain credibility (but supporting a pro-town player) or save a fellow scum. Further, if you are town, this now effectively establishes that you did NOT see power role actions on the other Nights, which could potentially yield additional information for the scum. Particularly, since I imagine that most power roles have an action they'd choose to perform every Night. To a certain degree, I agree. Up until the weekend, I had largely a null tell on Idle. And while I did feel very confident about my vote for drain bead versus Cookies, I was not present for the ensuing claims and thus, having read through them with the knowledge of drain bead's alignment, I'm not sure I have a full understanding of the chaos that was the last part of the Day. But any large degree of certain in such chaos stinks of PIS, which is why my suspicion in Cat is strongly renewed, and also a good reason to give Idle some serious consideration.
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Post by Blaster Master on Oct 12, 2007 11:16:25 GMT -5
* Though stupidity would still sound better, I'm replacing it with a word that more accurately implies how I use it and not potentially hurt anyone's feelings Gee....thanks By sound, I mean it fits better in the phrasing. IOW, I filtered it specifically because I didn't want to imply that you were stupid, because that is definitely not my opinion of you. Instead, you were simply in error
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Post by storyteller0910 on Oct 12, 2007 11:17:24 GMT -5
I really need to grow up. I shouldn't find this funny at my age.
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Post by Mad The Swine on Oct 12, 2007 11:20:32 GMT -5
Spiff....list me the folks you voted for so far.
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Santo Rugger
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Post by Santo Rugger on Oct 12, 2007 11:23:06 GMT -5
<snip>As it has already been pointed out, we were nowhere near deadline and other people had already promised to be the hammer. <snip> Like I said, I regretted the hammer on Day 2. Yesterday, the case against drain bead was just to compelling not to hammer. Several people said they were willing to hammer beforehand, and so did I, the night before. I especially noticed that story chimed in within ten minutes of the hammer being dropped, which leads me to believe he was composing a longish post before I posted. I can wait longer in the future and not be so excited in thinking we've found scum, like I have the past couple days. If you equate responding to accusations against me as being "so defensive", then I don't know what to say. I tend to respond to my accusers.
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Post by Santo Rugger on Oct 12, 2007 11:29:56 GMT -5
In both cases, it served to make some others look bad for not having final votes, it ends the conversation early, and it affords you this "Why would I do this if I were scum?" defense.<snip> Not having a final vote doesn't look nearly as bad in this set up as it does when the Day ends at a specified time. Just because I may have ended the conversation early, doesn't mean it has to be finished. I responded to your accusations yesterDay, concerning how your explanation for Roosh's "slip", and his explaination, simply don't match up! I've also brought it up today, in response to your vote for me, and you've failed to address it.
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Post by Blaster Master on Oct 12, 2007 11:31:15 GMT -5
If I were scum...I would lobby to kill you straight away. I would feel you are a threat. Well, you see, this is a tactic that was used to some effect in M2, Pirates, and Psycho... In M2, sturmhauke was left alive precisely because people were wondering why he was still alive. In pirates, I was specifically left alive as cover for Gadarene. Similarly, in Psycho, Storyteller was specifically left alive as cover for me. Now, not to say that I'm not still very suspicious of Storyteller, but it's entirely possible that scum have realized this tactic has largely worn out, or has obtained some level of unwarranted belief. IF Storyteller is town, they could be leaving us both alive hoping that the town would start to wonder why we're both alive, that obviously one of us is covering for the other, and get a free lynch. Or maybe they think that our little dispute earlier is a nice distraction. Or maybe we're both simply off-base, and they hope that our "skilled player" reputations will help us inadvertantly lead the town astray. Bottom line, any kind of reasoning like this is, at best a null tell, and at worst, leading us right down the path the scum want us to take. One very valid point that, I think, Queuing made in MV was... why do what the scum want us to do? I'd bet dollars to donuts that, if we're both town, that the scum have discussed killing us and have either decided on other targets for better reasons, or specifically decided against killing us for specific reasons. Just like I think reasoning on drain bead's claimed blocks is a bad idea, I think reasoning on ANY information deliberately afforded us by the scum is a bad idea. Further, Storyteller and I are FAR from the only ones in this game who carry any sort of weight for being a good player. Does say, Cookies, not get any credit for the excellent play at the end of MV? What about you for your play in Pirates? Thus, I would rather indict Storyteller based on his actions, motivations, votes, and associations rather than on trying to surmise why he's still alive.
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Post by Blaster Master on Oct 12, 2007 11:32:32 GMT -5
I really need to grow up. I shouldn't find this funny at my age. ;D My mind was in the same place as I typed it, but why not leave in a little juvenile pun, right?
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Post by Blaster Master on Oct 12, 2007 11:38:36 GMT -5
Spiff....list me the folks you voted for so far. Umm... FTR, you can find the vote tallies that HM has been so kind to maintain at psychopathgame.proboards106.com/index.cgi?board=firefly&action=display&thread=1190331784I don't really understand the context of this request, but I've voted in this order Roosh, Dotchan, CatInASuit, Dotchan Storyteller Storyteller, drainbead Pygmy Rugger ...I feel like I might have missed one, but I don't recall, and I don't see it on the chart, so... yeah...
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Post by Blaster Master on Oct 12, 2007 11:47:15 GMT -5
Not having a final vote doesn't look nearly as bad in this set up as it does when the Day ends at a specified time. Just because I may have ended the conversation early, doesn't mean it has to be finished. I responded to your accusations yesterDay, concerning how your explanation for Roosh's "slip", and his explaination, simply don't match up! I've also brought it up today, in response to your vote for me, and you've failed to address it. So why does my explanation have to match up with Roosh's? That was my interpretation of the post and, even after his correcting his wording, I still don't see how you got what you got out of it. The bottom line was that it was very clear that the context was about Hockey Monkey's discussions about bandwagons. Did I not adequately explain the reasoning behind my interpretation? Can you honestly not see how I reached the conclusion I did, and you simply disagree? Do you think I made up my interpretation as a defense of Roosh? I really don't see where this line of questioning leads us.
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Oct 12, 2007 12:01:26 GMT -5
Further, Storyteller and I are FAR from the only ones in this game who carry any sort of weight for being a good player. Does say, Cookies, not get any credit for the excellent play at the end of MV? What about you for your play in Pirates? Thus, I would rather indict Storyteller based on his actions, motivations, votes, and associations rather than on trying to surmise why he's still alive. Um...thanks? Unless you're trying to kill me with kindness... There are a lot of skilled, experienced players in this game. I have found myself often wearing that particular filter ("yeah, but [insert name] is a good, experienced player. Would s/he really do that?") when trying to read between the lines, but I have been trying my best to avoid it. This first experience for most (all?) of us with a closed setup really levels the playing field in that respect, I think.
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Post by Santo Rugger on Oct 12, 2007 12:15:36 GMT -5
<snip> So why does my explanation have to match up with Roosh's? That was my interpretation of the post and, even after his correcting his wording, I still don't see how you got what you got out of it. The bottom line was that it was very clear that the context was about Hockey Monkey's discussions about bandwagons. Did I not adequately explain the reasoning behind my interpretation? Can you honestly not see how I reached the conclusion I did, and you simply disagree? Do you think I made up my interpretation as a defense of Roosh? I really don't see where this line of questioning leads us. Because Roosh is the one that said it. You interpreted the post differently than what he said, and differently than what he meant, and then used me calling him out on what he actually said in order to build a case against me, which you are still pursuing toDay. I really don't see how you reached the conclusion you did, since Roosh even came in afterwards to admit he made a mistake. How can you say you don't see where this line of questioning leads us, when you're the one that brought up the subject in the first place, yesterDay? I am thoroughly confused on your interpretation, and even more so on your intent. If we simply disagree, and the guy who said it said he understands why I called him out on it, how the heck can you use that against me?
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Post by CatInASuit on Oct 12, 2007 12:25:23 GMT -5
From Idle Thoughts Post Day 3.#212 ++++++++++++++++++++++++ Like Cookies, I do not believe Drain Bead's claim either. Why? Because it just stinks to me. And more and more I'm realizing that Ui made a lot of sense for all of his weird posting styles. I do believe Drain Bead is a roleblocker. I even believe there's a good possiblity that she's that character name. I do NOT believe that her/her character/that role is a pro-town role. And yes, from what I've read, I DO realize that her character IS a good person in the show apparently. Doesn't change the fact that I don't think she is in this game. ++++++++++++++++++++++++ W0W! What a guess. Idle Thoughts, you got the entire thing spot on. That's so amazing. How did you do it? Spaceman Spiff and StoryTeller. I mentioned that it looked staged in Day 3 and that neither had done much in the way of actual town analysis. Well storyteller responded, but I got nothing back from Spaceman Spiff. Would you care to respond? Role names: Strange I mentioned that back in Day 1, the scum can claim any name and it would not matter. Guess I was right on that one as well. Dotchan, my apologies for getting you lynched on Day 1, although we still have a few of the final pieces. BTW the scum would not be happy for mass roleclaims because they could not use it as an excuse later on. When using your name would be a way of escaping a lynch, which is what I did on Day 1. Deliberately. Do I look scummy to everyone, because I should do. I have been holding myself up as a straw man knowing I am Vanilla to see what I think of people's thoughts and claims. And you know what, it hasn't really worked at all. Personally, I am waiting to see what the scum try next.
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Blaster Master
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Post by Blaster Master on Oct 12, 2007 12:43:37 GMT -5
<snip> So why does my explanation have to match up with Roosh's? That was my interpretation of the post and, even after his correcting his wording, I still don't see how you got what you got out of it. The bottom line was that it was very clear that the context was about Hockey Monkey's discussions about bandwagons. Did I not adequately explain the reasoning behind my interpretation? Can you honestly not see how I reached the conclusion I did, and you simply disagree? Do you think I made up my interpretation as a defense of Roosh? I really don't see where this line of questioning leads us. Because Roosh is the one that said it. You interpreted the post differently than what he said, and differently than what he meant, and then used me calling him out on what he actually said in order to build a case against me, which you are still pursuing toDay. I really don't see how you reached the conclusion you did, since Roosh even came in afterwards to admit he made a mistake. How can you say you don't see where this line of questioning leads us, when you're the one that brought up the subject in the first place, yesterDay? I am thoroughly confused on your interpretation, and even more so on your intent. If we simply disagree, and the guy who said it said he understands why I called him out on it, how the heck can you use that against me? The point WAS that you were calling him out on a mistake. The fact that I misinterpretted it has no bearing on your actions. I laid out very specific reasons for why I thought scum had a compelling reason to maintain suspicion on Roosh. I feel like these reasons were given some sense of validation by lynching drain bead and discovering her alignment. Further, while my interpretation was wrong, you deliberately left out a sentence which gave the paragraph context and made Roosh look that much worse. Considering that I see a lot of scum motivation for those sorts of actions, and I can think of no pro-town motivation for removing context from a piece of evidence. Further, I think these types of "slips" are nitpicky at best, and more likely, a null tell. Besides, if we're going to turn this into a game of looking at eachother's slips... maybe we should just take a field trip to a burlesque house.
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Post by Blaster Master on Oct 12, 2007 12:55:45 GMT -5
From Idle Thoughts Post Day 3.#212 ++++++++++++++++++++++++ Like Cookies, I do not believe Drain Bead's claim either. Why? Because it just stinks to me. And more and more I'm realizing that Ui made a lot of sense for all of his weird posting styles. I do believe Drain Bead is a roleblocker. I even believe there's a good possiblity that she's that character name. I do NOT believe that her/her character/that role is a pro-town role. And yes, from what I've read, I DO realize that her character IS a good person in the show apparently. Doesn't change the fact that I don't think she is in this game. ++++++++++++++++++++++++ W0W! What a guess. Idle Thoughts, you got the entire thing spot on. That's so amazing. How did you do it? Interesting point. Now that you mention it, I do remember Idle "theorizing" that she was a scum blocker. Just because she claims pro-town blocker, doesn't mean she has a comparable role for the scum. This does stink of potentially trying to enourage the town that while, yes she is scum, maybe we should take a closer look at her blocks and use them to reason. Either way, we definitely need to hear from Idle. I don't remember you saying this, but I see no reason to believe you didn't. I probably didn't respond because I either felt it was already answered, or just plain missed it (I'm leaning toward the latter. Anyway, I'm not really sure what you want me to say besides... it's not. FWIW, I can assure that my side is genuine. I'm not really even sure how things look "staged", but it's probably a matter of tone and whatnot. Either way, I can respond to specific points, but for anything general like that, I'm content to just leave it to the reader to decide. I'm rather confused here. Are you claiming you've been TRYING to set yourself up as lynch bate? This sounds like post hoc justification.
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Post by NAF1138 on Oct 12, 2007 12:58:56 GMT -5
Well, this is probably going to come as a surprise. But sometimes surprising things happen in the world or firefly.
Dio was walking down the street to the ship, when suddenly a bolt of lightning struck the ground out of nowhere, frying him to a blackened crisp.
The coroner will need to take a little time to determine his identity.
We will let you know at Dawn if we were able to figure out what his role and alignment were.
As for now, you are all in such shock that you decided to go home for the rest of the day. By the time you had recovered it was already nightfall.
Dio has been modkilled. Further explinations will be given as we feel they are appropriate, i.e. you will know more at Dawn. Kat and I need to figure out how much to tell you.
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Post by storyteller0910 on Oct 12, 2007 12:58:57 GMT -5
From Idle Thoughts Post Day 3.#212 ++++++++++++++++++++++++ Like Cookies, I do not believe Drain Bead's claim either. Why? Because it just stinks to me. And more and more I'm realizing that Ui made a lot of sense for all of his weird posting styles. I do believe Drain Bead is a roleblocker. I even believe there's a good possiblity that she's that character name. I do NOT believe that her/her character/that role is a pro-town role. And yes, from what I've read, I DO realize that her character IS a good person in the show apparently. Doesn't change the fact that I don't think she is in this game. ++++++++++++++++++++++++ W0W! What a guess. Idle Thoughts, you got the entire thing spot on. That's so amazing. How did you do it? What makes it odd is that, as I said at the time, this was by far the least likely option from the perspective of someone without perfect knowledge. Why would drain, as a pro-scum blocker, fail to block the investigator repeatedly given the opportunity? Yet Idle seemed confident that this was the case, in spite of the unlikeliness of it.
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