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Post by Idle Thoughts on Mar 20, 2012 22:24:18 GMT -5
He also came back and said he's happy to leave his vote where it is and not unvote you. Yes, I did see that, too, but then why make another vote in the first place? Huh.
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Post by Chronos on Mar 21, 2012 1:09:31 GMT -5
OK, still not caught up (just got to start of Day 3), but it's getting late, and I've already accumulated a few things to say, so I'll post them now. First of all, sharp cheddar is best for grilled cheese sandwiches, and rosemary is really good on them. Second, Mahaloth is a nice addition to Town, but not gamebreaking, since he still spends a cycle dead before coming back: Scum will know when they're one kill away from their win condition, and can save him for that last kill. Though of course I'm glad to have a semi-confirmed Townie that Scum will hold off on killing, since it'll make analysis that much easier. Third, even if he was our only recruitment, I think we should, for the most part, trust that any further third parties will try to help us. Yes, they can win with Scum, but I think that most third party win conditions are likely to favor the game ending quickly, and I think that Town is more likely to win than Scum at this point, so it's in their own best interest to help us. If their existence isn't dangerous to us, and they're trying to help us, they're almost as good as Town even without a recruitment. Though of course there's still the possibility that an enemy might lie about being third party. It's also possible that a third party might be recruited by the Scum. I still think, however, that MHaye was most likely a recruit, not an original Scum, and that TexCat just got lucky. His purpose wasn't to be a check on Silver Jan's power, since (according to her, at least) the check on her power is that someone especially strong-willed can lie to her (I'm guessing this means Batman). And this could also account for the issue that arose Night 1 to cause Day to be delayed. If Scum only had one recruitment, they've used it up. Meeko, there are a few rare cases where it does make sense for Town to vote No Lynch, so it makes sense for us to have the option. "Not sure what's going on", however, is not one of those rare cases (they mostly come up in endgames with power roles alive, where a No Lynch won't change when LyLo will arrive). If "not sure what's going on" were a valid reason for No Lynch, then we'd never lynch, because the whole point of this game is that we're never sure what's going on. On to responses to posts: SBrOwn's WoW on pizzaguy makes a very impressive case. I was especially struck by his pre-game post where he describes his style and tells, which I hadn't noticed before. He really does (or did; he's shaped up since he started getting heat for it) seem to be playing exactly how he describes himself as playing as Scum, and not at all how he describes his Townie playstyle. I'll want to catch up to the rest of the Day before placing a vote, but it's probably going to be him. peeker, re your post that the roles seem to be interestingly-assigned, I do note that when Storyteller randomized the roles, he said it was going to be epic. When pizzaguy claimed, he said that if he were Scum, he'd do anything but what he did with respect to Lightfoot, since he could have just blocked her. But that assumes, of course, that he's telling the truth, which is putting Descartes before the horse. And it's also a big fat Scum Wouldn't Do That, and if he's as experienced as he says, he should know why that's a lousy argument. Later on, he says that we should recruit Drain Bead instead of killing her, to deny her information to Scum. But a Town Drain Bead wouldn't have been any use to us without sharing her information, and she has no way to do that without giving it to Scum also. And if she couldn't share her information with us, what would be the point of recruiting her instead of someone with a power that is useful to us? Total Ullz says that she can't see a "harmless" 3rd party having a killing power. But we already know we had one of those, since that's what Pleonast was.
And Meeko,
I do not yet know whether it will yield fruit, but I do not see how it has caused any harm, either.
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Post by Chronos on Mar 21, 2012 2:30:37 GMT -5
All right, now I've caught up. And I haven't seen any reasons not to follow up my suspicions from yesterDay and in my previous post, so I will Vote askthepizzaguySuspicion of Lightfoot must be tempered by the fact that she's claimed an information-gaining power (and if she's telling the truth, an extremely valuable one), and so it's possible that she'll be proven a liar, or give us useful information. However, she's already claimed her role, so there's no reason at all for her to stay silent, if she's Town: Come toMorrow, if she doesn't immediately tell us what her investigation result was, I'm back to voting her. SBrOwn: Pro tip: Given what's attached to your face, I recommend you do not suck it up . Meanwhile, you're quickly becoming one of my favorite posters, with the methodical and nerdy way you're approaching figuring out your device. I'm presuming that SBrOwn's device came from the same source as Pollux's. It looks like whoever it is has a variety of devices, with different triggering conditions. I had a few ideas as to what SBrOwn's might be, but none of them seem consistent with the results of her experiments, so I'm stumped. I also wonder if it might have two triggers with different results, given the two tanks connected to the mask. I doubt that the devices are the work of Scum, since they really don't seem to be Do-Gooder style. If they're from a PFK, then it'd be doubly bad for them to go off, since that would probably advance the PFK's win condition, which would mean we'd lose. Alternately, given that Town is all villains, it could be one of us, which would explain why the target was not one of our semi-confirmed folks (PFKs should want confirmed dead). Rysto, I don't think you should have taken offense at TexCat saying that she wanted more information before voting. You seem to think that the only possible result of that information would have been another reason for her to vote her. It could be, though, that she was planning to vote you unless you turned out to have a Townish name. Storyteller has been known in the past to officially describe a role as "vanilla", but to still give it a minor or situational power, so it's not actually a given that Archangel was completely vanilla. It is still theoretically possible that peeker and Gadarene are both Scum and are lying together. However, that's a very low-percentage Scum play, so I consider it sufficiently unlikely that I can't see voting for either of them any time in the immediate future (unless, of course, one of them should happen to be killed and flip as Scum). And I know that Meeko has a tendency to jump at shadows, but this is seeming like rather much even for him.
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Post by Meeko on Mar 21, 2012 4:44:22 GMT -5
Suspicion of Lightfoot must be tempered by the fact that she's claimed an information-gaining power (and if she's telling the truth, an extremely valuable one), and so it's possible that she'll be proven a liar, or give us useful information. SNIPAnd I know that Meeko has a tendency to jump at shadows, but this is seeming like rather much even for him. Ah. Ok. This will be fun. Suspicion of AskThePizzaGuy must be tempered by the fact that he is sharing a wealth of information that helps town. The amount of information, given the amount of experience he claims to have is valuable, and we should not kill the goose that lays the golden egg here. I believe his experience gives us information. (and if he's telling the truth, extremely valuable information), and so it's possible that he'll be proven a liar, or give us useful information. At that time we can lynch him, then. That's about where I am with it. YMMV. IMHO. That's really where I am with it. Hopefully you can understand me now.
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Post by scáthach on Mar 21, 2012 5:53:06 GMT -5
I'm fine with voting for pizza, too..although he wasn't much on my radar before toDay (and before voting for me). I might have to admit I'm a little biased, though, due to his vote on me. Vote Askthepizzaguy I was the first to vote Pizza yesterday, but I'm not feeling it as much today and I think the bandwagon is surprising. There are several posters, yourself included, that are the reason why I keep reading. TBH I didn't feel at all welcomed on D1 or D2. ^This kind of stuff feels like genuine townie frustration. (Although it never fails to surprise me when people get upset over being voted in a game that is all about voting) Do we know if his role claim is verifiable? Given that he claims to have blocked sinjin, would sinjin have been aware of the fact? SBrOwn's WoW on pizzaguy makes a very impressive case. I was especially struck by his pre-game post where he describes his style and tells, which I hadn't noticed before. He really does (or did; he's shaped up since he started getting heat for it) seem to be playing exactly how he describes himself as playing as Scum, and not at all how he describes his Townie playstyle. I'll want to catch up to the rest of the Day before placing a vote, but it's probably going to be him. Unless I'm reading this wrong, surely he is playing how he said he would as town. Individualistic and whatnot? Suspicion of AskThePizzaGuy must be tempered by the fact that he is sharing a wealth of information that helps town. The amount of information, given the amount of experience he claims to have is valuable, and we should not kill the goose that lays the golden egg here. I believe his experience gives us information. (and if he's telling the truth, extremely valuable information), and so it's possible that he'll be proven a liar, or give us useful information. At that time we can lynch him, then. Could you point me to an example of some golden eggs here? What information are you talking about?
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Post by scáthach on Mar 21, 2012 6:02:54 GMT -5
I'm happy to vote for Hal or Lightfoot again today (for the same reasons I voted for them yesterDay and Day One (well, Hal, Day One). Why didn't you? Were you waiting for support? And since it's been shown that this is NOT an "everyone is a power role of some sort" game: I'm Poison Ivy. I have a 50 percent chance of poisoning (and killing) anyone who tries to kill me at Night. I think it only works once, though, from how the PM sounds. So with this info, I take it scum specify who they want to have kill a person each Night (if that wasn't already known/talked about). Also, I will note that Idle has said before that he always claims immediately as town. Why wait a day? What does it "not being an everyone is a power role" game have to do with your claim? Surely that only makes it more anti-town to claim since you're revealing a town power? And since you're A-OK with claiming even when it's anti-town to do so, why even mention the weird not-quite-a-justification about all-power games?
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Post by Idle Thoughts on Mar 21, 2012 11:45:33 GMT -5
I'm happy to vote for Hal or Lightfoot again today (for the same reasons I voted for them yesterDay and Day One (well, Hal, Day One). Why didn't you? Were you waiting for support? I was waiting to see which of them, if either (or someone else) got more votes. In this case, Pizzaguy did (five votes after only two days)... So waiting and voting for him right off the bat beats having to change over to vote for him from Hal/Lightfoot. Wrong. I've always said (and I can find quotes for you if you'd like me to back it up) that I DO NOT claim on Day One either if I'm playing in a game with no vanilla, which I thought this was. Cite that shows I thought this was a no vanilla game: idlemafia.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=dds&thread=1885&page=1#88097Cites that show me saying I don't ever claim on Day Ones in games that have no vanilla: www.giraffeboards.com/showpost.php?p=739402&postcount=598 and www.giraffeboards.com/showpost.php?p=738779&postcount=425
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Post by Sister Coyote on Mar 21, 2012 11:54:24 GMT -5
Alternately, given that Town is all villains, it could be one of us, which would explain why the target was not one of our semi-confirmed folks (PFKs should want confirmed dead). I don't think it's entirely safe to assume that Town are all villains, because I think Story is smarter than that. YMMV. Storyteller has been known in the past to officially describe a role as "vanilla", but to still give it a minor or situational power, so it's not actually a given that Archangel was completely vanilla. Story said there might be situational or "triggerable" powers in the rules thread. Do we know if his role claim is verifiable? Given that he claims to have blocked sinjin, would sinjin have been aware of the fact? Sinjin says she did not take any actions last night and thus that Pizza's claimed action had no effect. I can see the case on Pizza -- but I can also see Pizza's case on sinjin. I need to...sigh. re-read everything again...
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Post by Sister Coyote on Mar 21, 2012 11:55:04 GMT -5
He also came back and said he's happy to leave his vote where it is and not unvote you. Yes, I did see that, too, but then why make another vote in the first place? Huh. Because he doesn't like to FOS? Or just got excited and forgot to unvote and changed his mind? Hell if I know.
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Post by Idle Thoughts on Mar 21, 2012 11:55:08 GMT -5
What does it "not being an everyone is a power role" game have to do with your claim? Surely that only makes it more anti-town to claim since you're revealing a town power? And since you're A-OK with claiming even when it's anti-town to do so, why even mention the weird not-quite-a-justification about all-power games? I don't really care if it's seen as anti-town. If I'm a power role in a game that I know vanilla exists, I'm going to claim. I've always believed it to be better to be fully open and honest from the start. It works out better for me, since I no longer GIVE A CARE to try to upkeep a power role and keep it hidden from scum. I'm finding these games too stressful to play in anymore...so the best thing for me to do is just claim from the beginning in most cases. In the case with everyone being a power role, however, it's not as stressful for me to carry the burden of having a power role...since scum will probably want EVERYONE dead equally...thus I have a chance to stay hidden longer. Bottom line, I just can't play power roles in vanilla games stress-free anymore. The having to hide it from town...the worrying about making a slip due to your power and having everyone else think you're scum because of it (rather than a power role), the having to claim when you're one vote away from being lynched and having your claim be out there ANYWAY..... ..no, It's much easier for me just to claim it out in the open whenever it's a vanilla game, from the START...which I would have done in THIS case had I known it was a game that had vanilla town. This is why I'm retiring, in case you were wondering. Because I fully admit it's an anti-town way to play. It's time to retire from playing when you're the way I am in games now.
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Post by Chronos on Mar 21, 2012 12:05:42 GMT -5
Fair enough. I should have stuck in a "predominantly" or the like in there. It doesn't change my point that the bomber might plausibly be Town.
Incidentally, if the bomber and/or whoever's responsible for the kerosene are friendly (i.e., Town or Third Party), you might want to consider claiming (at least partially, to whatever extent you consider appropriate) now. If you're forced to claim under pressure, you're likely to draw a lot of suspicion. Feel free to omit whether you're Town or Third, if you're worried about the possibility of recruitment (though I personally don't think that's all that worth worrying about).
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Mar 21, 2012 12:09:57 GMT -5
The metagaming about Idle is becoming more of a distraction than anything else, imho. He's not confirmed in my eyes by any means, but I don't think there's enough of a case to lynch him yet. And the metagame crap is just that: null tell crap.
I feel somewhat the same about Pizzaguy, and with how fast his wagon loaded up I'm pretty sure there are some scum/pfk in there.
Sister Coyote, I know you have a lot to read, but I'm very interested in your thoughts on our Hal's priming and then critical lynch-vote for Pleo, our pile of soft claims and mini-masonries, conjecture about color and alignment and batmobiles, weak investigators and when they should claim or divulge results, and all of the other things that are still unknown and undecided. I'm considerably less interested in your metagaming reads on Idle or anyone else, but if that is what you want to talk about, I'm all ears.
The longer we go where either Rysto or Silver Jan does not provide the information about Rysto's name, the more I'm suspicious of both of them. Information, people. What use is it to you if you die with it, or if the powers at our disposal lynch/block/protect/investigate/watch/track/kill the wrong person because the right person didn't know your tidbit of information?
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Post by scáthach on Mar 21, 2012 12:11:45 GMT -5
I've always said (and I can find quotes for you if you'd like me to back it up) that I DO NOT claim on Day One either if I'm playing in a game with no vanilla, which I thought this was. Fair enough - this does seem consistent so. In the case with everyone being a power role, however, it's not as stressful for me to carry the burden of having a power role...since scum will probably want EVERYONE dead equally...thus I have a chance to stay hidden longer. Surely it wouldn't be stressful in this game since being killed by scum is exactly what you want for the possibility of a revenge kill on them? Anyway it's your role so play it how you play it I guess -fingers crossed that a break from Mafia for a while might let you come back after a sabbatical and start enjoying it again
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Post by Chronos on Mar 21, 2012 12:18:01 GMT -5
Oh, and pizzaguy's argument against sinjin, that her being blocked might have accounted for the "missing" kill last Night, is a valid argument. But it's also, in the current context, an extremely weak one, since there are a plethora of other possible explanations: Even assuming that pizza is telling the truth, it could be the result of some other protective power, or it could be that one of the killers has a choice between different abilities and used one of the others instead, or it could be that there's a killing power which only works under certain circumstances, or a limited number of times, or we could have had multiple killers targeting the same person. Meanwhile, I'd also like to see an explanation from pizza of why he chose sinjin to block, since the two reasons he gave for suspecting her (that she voted him and that there was one less kill when he blocked her) would neither one have been valid last Night. Surely you had a better lead for using your power than a blind guess? I also want to sort through the claims of roleblocking to try to make some sense of them, but that will probably have to wait until I'm back home this afternoon.
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Post by BillMc on Mar 21, 2012 12:23:25 GMT -5
Rather quiet compared to previous days Suspicion of AskThePizzaGuy must be tempered by the fact that he is sharing a wealth of information that helps town. The amount of information, given the amount of experience he claims to have is valuable, and we should not kill the goose that lays the golden egg here. I believe his experience gives us information. (and if he's telling the truth, extremely valuable information), and so it's possible that he'll be proven a liar, or give us useful information. At that time we can lynch him, then. That's about where I am with it. YMMV. IMHO. That's really where I am with it. Hopefully you can understand me now. Nope - don't understand you at all. So as long as he is posting good "How to play" tips, you think he should be ignored? ATPG makes very points about not relying on detectives and going with folks behaviour - something that I agree with. In my opinion, his behaviour is not what I would expect from him (maybe I should just cut/paste/replace one of his "this is not the play I expect from BillMc" monologues from other games). Maybe it is OOG reasons that he is playing differently, or maybe he has the missing batsuit hidden in a pizzabox.
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Post by Silver Jan on Mar 21, 2012 12:49:50 GMT -5
Her doing helps to further confirm her power. Honestly, though, this isn't helping at all, so here goes: Do not question my sanity. I am a model of sanity!----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Welcome to the game; you are Hugo Strange REAL NAME:: Hugo Strange ALIGNMENT: Town GENERIC: <redacted> WIN CONDITION: All Scum and malicious third-parties (if any) are neutralized. My acrostic was the italicized bit of colour at the beginning, which any amount of Googling will show was said by Huge Strange in the comics. Thanks Rysto, looking at your character you are are an evil dude, as am I. My investigation said he was Hugo Strange and I am prepared to think that he is Town.
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Mar 21, 2012 13:16:43 GMT -5
Crap. I see that I managed to miss that Rysto had already name-claimed. Rant retracted*. Though why Silver Jan is still willing to assume that anyone who is evil in the canon is going to be Town in the game continues to baffle me.
*Offer not valid Alaska, Hawaii, Puerto Rico, or the parallel universe in which Rysto hasn't name-claimed yet.
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Post by Sister Coyote on Mar 21, 2012 13:24:01 GMT -5
Sister Coyote, I know you have a lot to read, but I'm very interested in your thoughts on our Hal's priming and then critical lynch-vote for Pleo, our pile of soft claims and mini-masonries, conjecture about color and alignment and batmobiles, weak investigators and when they should claim or divulge results, and all of the other things that are still unknown and undecided. I'm considerably less interested in your metagaming reads on Idle or anyone else, but if that is what you want to talk about, I'm all ears. I don't know what to make of Hal's behavior as I still haven't finished reading Day One (I read Chronos' summary, which is not the same thing). I think soft-claims give me a headache and you already know I don't trust masons at the best of times. I've expressed my opinion about some of the potential alignments, expect if anything is in the color it's there to entertain Story, and although I find the idea of the Batmobile being an actual character fairly improbable I'm not willing to completely rule it out. As we have had two Nights and two people who smelled Kerosene, there's something going on, clearly. Possibly a mad bomber. Although what, then, to make of the devices and their various countdowns? I don't know. I wasn't aware I'd been bothering with Idle being Idle. He and I were interacting on the subject of pizzaguy, not on the subject of his claim. Though why Silver Jan is still willing to assume that anyone who is evil in the canon is going to be Town in the game continues to baffle me. Jan isn't the only one. Chronos said the same thing.
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Mar 21, 2012 13:41:34 GMT -5
Sister: That last part was just snark about metagaming in general and not any exchanges between you and Idle specifically.
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Post by Silver Jan on Mar 21, 2012 13:55:10 GMT -5
I am ready to believe that Rysto is a good guy, as are Peeks, Gadarene and LightFoot, I am not happy about Idle or Hal
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Post by Silver Jan on Mar 21, 2012 14:32:07 GMT -5
I am ready to believe that Rysto is a good guy, as are Peeks, Gadarene and LightFoot, I am not happy about Idle or HalWhen I wiki'd this game Hugo was a bad guy but so am I , I am not prepared to vote for Rysto now
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Post by Meeko on Mar 21, 2012 15:04:10 GMT -5
Do we know if his role claim is verifiable? Given that he claims to have blocked sinjin, would sinjin have been aware of the fact? Isn't this what I did on Day 2?
Pizza: Would you rather I had NOT confirmed that you blocked me on Night 1? As far as Golden Eggs go; 1.Pizza had the entire discussion on what exactly it means to be Third Party, from Pizza. Not that anyone actually read what Story himself said. [Texcat and Peeker I'm looking at you.] 2. Now we have Pizza stating that we need to look at multiple people each day. Why don't we do this?
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Post by Meeko on Mar 21, 2012 15:06:50 GMT -5
Today at Work, I was thinking that there were two posts that had verbiage to the effect of "Unmutably Town" one coming from Peeker and Gad, and a second post.
I can't find a second post..... I was going to evaluate both of them, based on the copy / paste that allegedly came from the Mod.
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Post by Chronos on Mar 21, 2012 15:55:24 GMT -5
You have someone in mind who isn't doing this?
And what's to evaluate about the "unmutably Town" claims? Either the folks who made those claims are lying, or they're telling the truth, and either way, we'll find out soon enough. Seriously, you've been a Mason enough times that you should understand how this works.
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Post by Nanook on Mar 21, 2012 16:37:29 GMT -5
I feel somewhat the same about Pizzaguy, and with how fast his wagon loaded up I'm pretty sure there are some scum/pfk in there. Don't take this personally, it's not meant to be, but I fucking hate comments like this. You see it in every freaking game. There are 8 votes on Pizza right now, and only 5 of them came in a bunch. peekercpa, Nanook, SBrown, gnarlycharly, BillMc , Idle, sinjin, Chronos How about, instead of telling us how sure you are that some of those voters are bad, bad people!, you actually spend a moment to look at them and decide who you think might be those bad bad people. It's the same thing I was ranting at pizza about. Stop telling and start doing.
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Mar 21, 2012 17:29:47 GMT -5
I feel somewhat the same about Pizzaguy, and with how fast his wagon loaded up I'm pretty sure there are some scum/pfk in there. Don't take this personally, it's not meant to be, but I fucking hate comments like this. You see it in every freaking game. There are 8 votes on Pizza right now, and only 5 of them came in a bunch. peekercpa, Nanook, SBrown, gnarlycharly, BillMc , Idle, sinjin, Chronos How about, instead of telling us how sure you are that some of those voters are bad, bad people!, you actually spend a moment to look at them and decide who you think might be those bad bad people. It's the same thing I was ranting at pizza about. Stop telling and start doing. You might want to work on generalizing your tone and the implications thereof if you don't want people to take things personally. It was just an observation, and was not intended to be my last words on the topic. It was also quite far from my only contribution to the game.
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Post by Mahaloth on Mar 21, 2012 17:54:34 GMT -5
I'm caught up.
I don't get why askthepizzaguy is getting so many votes. I believe the claim and I believe he blocked sinjin, which if I am understanding things, stopped an additional NK. If I'm wrong, correct me. I've been crazy busy this Day and may not have it understood properly.
Vote sinjin
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Post by Mahaloth on Mar 21, 2012 17:55:02 GMT -5
Oh, and it was weird that he mis-coded a vote and fell back on a previous vote, but I don't think that is scummy.
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Mar 21, 2012 17:56:04 GMT -5
Some thoughts on Chronos to welcome him back. Suspicion of Lightfoot must be tempered by... This is where I started laughing, I don't know about the rest of you. Here we agree somewhat agree at least, but I'm decidedly more dubious about an earlier statement about another of our still-not-confirmed pairs of people who have allegedly done things to eachother: Nanook and Mahaloth. It is more hunchy than anything else, but I rank Peeker and Gad a bit higher on my Continuum of Trustworthiness (tm). Basically the hunches play out like this: Peeker wanted to see me dead for being too diplomatic with LightFoot, but I can respect the power of paranoia and skepticism, even when it is wrong. Mahaloth jumping into the scum-aligned kerosene-powered batmobile with both feet on the other hand, is the opposite of what I consider healthy skepticism. I just can't tell yet if we just approach things differently or if he might have an angle for wanting to promote that idea over others. The sum of it all is as I've stated: in the category of guilt/innocence by association, I'm less skeptical of Peeker/Gad than I am of Nanook/Maha at this point. The truth of the matter is that we have a good bit of unconfirmed stuff on the table right now, and I'd prefer to sort some of it out before we add too much more, but I'm not counting on getting what I want in Mafia or in life.
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Mar 21, 2012 18:01:29 GMT -5
I'm caught up. I don't get why askthepizzaguy is getting so many votes. I believe the claim and I believe he blocked sinjin, which if I am understanding things, stopped an additional NK. If I'm wrong, correct me. I've been crazy busy this Day and may not have it understood properly. Vote sinjinI don't think there is enough information to conclude that Sinjin being blocked is the only thing that could explain a missing Night Kill. A killer could have chosen not to act, or targeted a protected player, or missed the deadline for actions even. It is circumstantial evidence, and I'm not ruling out the case against Sinjin completely, but this one data point isn't enough to seal the deal imho.
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