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Post by gnarlycharlie on Mar 22, 2012 4:21:07 GMT -5
There are several posters, yourself included, that are the reason why I keep reading. TBH I didn't feel at all welcomed on D1 or D2. i hope you don't really feel unwelcome. i don't think anyone went after you or went out of their way to feel unwelcome. a number of players know who you are. all know that you are not a noob. i think they just expect a lot from you especially after De'endee. whoa! the link leads to a post of sinjin commenting on my post. that is quite misleading. should we check if your other links are accurate? -And if you found scum... well then, why not just point it out and then we lynch scum and then we're up another player vs. the scum and they're down possibly one more player with powers or abilities or something, who knows? -Sure, we waste a Day, but isn't a wasted day of no talk WORTH it if we kill Scum? It'd basically be forcing scum to play the Day over the next Day but down a man now. :Shrug: And it would go a long way to helping us confirm your credibility as pro-town [and less likely to be a Scum that keeps coming up with "Not Scum" results, ya know? So a two for one deal there. But that's just how I would play the role I guess. Your thinking is obviously quite different than mine. --- 9 personally, if i found scum, i would delay revealing until about 24 to 36 hours before EOD. that way there is time for changing of votes and there is additional info from votes and other posts.
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Post by scáthach on Mar 22, 2012 5:27:00 GMT -5
whoa! the link leads to a post of sinjin commenting on my post. that is quite misleading. should we check if your other links are accurate? How is it misleading? Your post says exactly what Lightfoot claims it does - and if anything gives more context via including sinjin's reply
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Post by gnarlycharlie on Mar 22, 2012 6:08:25 GMT -5
whoa! the link leads to a post of sinjin commenting on my post. that is quite misleading. should we check if your other links are accurate? How is it misleading? Your post says exactly what Lightfoot claims it does - and if anything gives more context via including sinjin's reply read it again. first of all, Lightfoot says *I* asked sinjin. the exact post she linked is a post by sinjin not me. second, that post was meant for all. it was a comment on the lack of discussion since Pleo was a runaway wagon at the time. not accurate at all.
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Post by scáthach on Mar 22, 2012 6:15:54 GMT -5
How is it misleading? Your post says exactly what Lightfoot claims it does - and if anything gives more context via including sinjin's reply read it again. first of all, Lightfoot says *I* asked sinjin. the exact post she linked is a post by sinjin not me. second, that post was meant for all. it was a comment on the lack of discussion since Pleo was a runaway wagon at the time. not accurate at all. Lightfoot linked a post from sinjin, in which you were quoted saying "Do we see each other again d2". Maybe you didn't mean it as a question for sinjin but you had quoted her so it's not an unreasonable assumption. I fail to see how it's misleading.
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Post by scáthach on Mar 22, 2012 6:17:31 GMT -5
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Meeko
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I raccoon it's time to play Mafia
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Post by Meeko on Mar 22, 2012 6:42:26 GMT -5
Going to place a vote in a second, but quick note here.
Cookies' karma is going up through the roof, something like 17 points in the past two days or something, right?
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Meeko
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I raccoon it's time to play Mafia
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Post by Meeko on Mar 22, 2012 6:45:29 GMT -5
You have someone in mind who isn't doing this? And what's to evaluate about the "unmutably Town" claims? Either the folks who made those claims are lying, or they're telling the truth, and either way, we'll find out soon enough. Seriously, you've been a Mason enough times that you should understand how this works. I was going to compare one of the claims to the other. I was thinking that one was a COPY of the other one.... that there could be a way to figuring out one truthful, and one fake..... thus I would use the fake one to make a vote.
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Meeko
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I raccoon it's time to play Mafia
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Post by Meeko on Mar 22, 2012 7:04:16 GMT -5
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Post by gnarlycharlie on Mar 22, 2012 7:12:54 GMT -5
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!!!!!!!!! i must be dumb scum. what scum tells his teammates during Day that he will see them the next Day? i guess you think i wouldn't participate in Night discussions like who to NK, who to use powers on, etc.
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Meeko
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I raccoon it's time to play Mafia
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Post by Meeko on Mar 22, 2012 7:28:58 GMT -5
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Post by Askthepizzaguy on Mar 22, 2012 8:46:15 GMT -5
i hope you don't really feel unwelcome. i don't think anyone went after you or went out of their way to feel unwelcome. a number of players know who you are. all know that you are not a noob. i think they just expect a lot from you especially after De'endee. After De'endee, I would think they'd expect a lot of extremely crappy play...
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Post by Askthepizzaguy on Mar 22, 2012 8:48:30 GMT -5
For those that weren't there, De'endee was an example of trying too hard. I did like 500 posts or something and caught one scum out of four, and pointed everywhere else besides the remaining three for the entirety of the rest of the game while taking up pages and pages of space.
Playstyle after that game changed to reflect not taking myself as seriously in front of a group of strangers I underestimated.
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Post by texcat on Mar 22, 2012 10:07:38 GMT -5
My quick unofficial vote count makes it pizza 8 Idle, Rysto, sinjin, and gnarly 1 each
AND NOT VOTING: Pollux, scathach, Total, Suburban, Rysto, Gadarene, Cookies, Jan, Lightfoot, Hal, SisC
Pollux, I'd like to hear who you would vote for, if you were to vote.
Lightfoot, I think this is one reason why revealing results early in the day is better than late in the day. More than half of us aren't voting until the last minute anyway.
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Post by Sister Coyote on Mar 22, 2012 10:32:38 GMT -5
At the moment, I'm not voting because I'm not sold on the Pizza case. I want to go back and look a little harder at a couple of other players.
And I'm still working my way through Day One.
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Post by Chronos on Mar 22, 2012 10:55:12 GMT -5
From pizza's post 206: Wow. I had already suspected that pizza's usual crowd wasn't very good at playing Scum, based on things like him thinking LtL was an amazingly great Scum-hunting strategy. But I hadn't realized they were that incompetent. pizza, some advice, in case you keep playing around here: Around here, Scum don't necessarily always vote for or feud with Townies. They don't necessarily even feud with Townies any more than the Townies do, or feud with other Scum less. I have hard empirical evidence for this. Skilled Scum in a well-balanced game have a reasonable shot at winning just by acting exactly as they would if they were Town.
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Post by Nanook on Mar 22, 2012 11:14:26 GMT -5
Now we have to stop talking general strategy or Nanook might yell at us. I know it's a bit of a joke, but I wanted to comment on it anyways. I don't actually have a problem with general strategy discussion. I in fact quite enjoy theory talk. I do have a problem with someone who only talks general strategy though, especially if they talk about it in a way that basically implies everyone else is an idiot.
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Post by LightFoot on Mar 22, 2012 11:30:09 GMT -5
~~snipped~~ whoa! the link leads to a post of sinjin commenting on my post. that is quite misleading. should we check if your other links are accurate? smudgy there? The purpose of taking the time to put all the links in there is for them to be read. I was looking at sinjin so I linked to her post. It was her content I was reviewing. Already stated that you had quoted sinjin in the origional and it certainly appeared that was who you were asking. Seems sinjin felt the same, so she quoted/ snipped/ and added in response. Your response to that one bit seems reactionary?
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Post by scáthach on Mar 22, 2012 11:31:10 GMT -5
I'm going to Vote: Hal Briston He was around earlier toDay, but didn't mention anything game related except kerosene speculation, and he hasn't been back since. It looks like someone trying to lay low after being a target of suspicion yesterday. Yep, same here...kerosene is what I smelled as well (subtract 13 from each of the two numbers in P25u39 and then run it through ROT-13, and you get C12h26, the chemical formula of kerosene). So it would seem a very safe guess that you and I were each investigated/visited by the same person these past two nights. I did some searching the other day trying to see if there was someone who had some sort of tie to kerosene in Batman canon, and I came up with several possibilities and one strong possibility. However, I kept those notes on my work computer, so I won't have access to them until tomorrow. D'oh. He waited a day to come back with the actual speculation of what he thought the kerosene was. Surely the Batmobile is pretty memorable and wouldn't actually require going back to check notes? He also never mentions what the other possibilities he said he had come up with actually were. Could be that he was waiting for approval from the scum team to come up with a theory, and one that makes him seem more likely to be town. After all the Batmobile would have no reason to visit scum right? I'm aware that this is a one off, I could also be persuaded to move my vote to sinjin later. Purely on the speculation that her being roleblocked explains the lack of extra night kill and because I tend to think Pizza isn't scum. But I'd like to go back and review all the roleblocking and roleblock claims that were going on also. Is it normal that someone wouldn't get a notification that they were roleblocked if they took no action? I could also cheerfully vote Meeko because his reasoning all along has been incomprehensible to me. I genuinely don't understand how he could suggest all third-partys should claim (sure, then let scum pick whoever they want to recruit if they can), or that we shouldn't vote Pizza even if we think he's scummy just because he's contributing.
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Post by Chronos on Mar 22, 2012 11:38:49 GMT -5
Ugh, what a time to get an error-bear. I'll try to reproduce the post I just lost, but this time I'm copying it elsewhere before I submit. I think I now have enough information to sort through the mess of role-blocking data we have. This Morning, Gadarene claimed to have been blocked. Presumably, this was done by a Scum role-blocker, since Gadarene is close to being confirmed Town, and so a Town roleblocker shouldn't have targeted him. Meanwhile, pizzaguy claims to have blocked sinjin, which she can neither confirm nor deny. Now, if pizzaguy is Scum, this claim would have run the risk that she would deny it, and so I don't think a scummy pizzaguy would have made that claim without some way of mitigating that risk. One way to do so would be if the Scum roleblocker ( pizza or otherwise) really had targeted sinjin, but that's inconsistent with Gadarene having been blocked. Another would be if they'd already investigated her and found her to have no powers, a possibility I admit I can't rule out. And the third way would be if sinjin is also Scum and going along with the deception. But given pizzaguy's apparent complete unfamiliarity with the concept of Scum throwing each other under the bus, I don't actually believe that a scummy pizza would have voted for a scummy sinjin. I think I'm actually falling afoul of Hanlon's Razor, here. Unvote askthepizzaguyAs to where I will put my vote: Regardless of pizza's alignment, I agree with him that Idle Thoughts' claim stinks. First of all, a power that can't be actively used or controlled at all, which can only trigger at most once in the whole course of the game, and which only has a random chance of doing anything even if it does trigger, is an awfully weak power. It is, in fact, the sort of thing which I would expect Storyteller to call "vanilla". Second, as claimed, the only thing it can do is kill, and so the "GENERIC" should read "Killing", not "Special". Third, there's a disconnect between the flavor and the power: The background suggests that Poison Ivy's power should come from the army of custom plants she's grown, not from her own personal biochemistry. And finally, it is, as pizzaguy pointed out, a very convenient power for a liar to claim to have, since it would keep him from getting Vigged, and explain why the Scum aren't trying to kill him. Vote Idle Thoughts
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Post by LightFoot on Mar 22, 2012 11:42:10 GMT -5
I don’t particularly care for the way many are just “ rolling out the dough “ ATPG has a bunch of votes with no competition for the lynch.
Granted I was mostly absent for 2 clock days this Day so I take some blame for not giving as much to the game as would be preferred
gnarlycharlie is pinging the hades out of me. Going back over his posts there isn’t much to chew on.
He had a one off vote Day 1
Day 2 he voted and unvoted [/b] ATPG [/B] (not clear entirely what garnered the vote and unvoted because of the role claim)
ToDay he’s not had much to say. Votes ATPG for no clear reason mentioned in that vote post.
The most he said about the game was when his name came up
Vote: gnarlycharlie
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Post by LightFoot on Mar 22, 2012 11:46:28 GMT -5
NETA I see some other posts made it through whilst I was wrestling with the bear.
Sometimes if I hit the back button once or twice my words are still in the reply screen
YMMV of course- but it's worth a try
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Post by Chronos on Mar 22, 2012 11:47:31 GMT -5
Oh, one other point about the role-blocking: We had two different people claim to have been blocked on Night 1. If they're both telling the truth, that suggests that there is a Town roleblocker in addition to a Scum one, and nobody's counterclaimed pizza. Now, granted, neither of those two people who claimed to have been blocked is someone I trust all that much, and it's possible that we have a Town blocker who just hasn't thought it worthwhile to counterclaim pizza, but still, it's more assumptions we have to make to be consistent with pizza being Scum.
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Post by Chronos on Mar 22, 2012 11:49:01 GMT -5
Yeah, I already tried that. Eh, I think I said basically the same things the second time around, anyway.
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Post by Sister Coyote on Mar 22, 2012 11:56:12 GMT -5
So this: I have been thinking about the Pleo situation, a lot, as most of us have. I am concerned about the proposed vig solution to the Pleo problem. If scum have a watcher, we've just outed our vig. Enough beating around the bush. I think we need to take out Pleo sooner rather than later. vote Pleonasttown could have a watcher too. could work both ways. it seems a Pleo lynch is happening. i doubt anyone is doing to say something stupid to paint a target on their back. do we see each other again on D2? is the post of Charlie's that is drawing a lot of heat. Oddly enough, it isn't the last line of that which bothers me. It's the second. Unfortunately, I can see either a Town Charlie meaning to post this to the Day thread or a Scum Charlie strategizing with his fellows in the entire post. Charlie's subsequent obsessive objection to lightfoot's link tends to make me lean more Scum misposting than Town. vote: gnarlycharlie
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Post by LightFoot on Mar 22, 2012 11:59:34 GMT -5
Could you clarify what in the world you're talking about, here? Why should we assume that peeker tried to send a message last Night, when he's already used his power? It was a one-shot. yaknow just a general observation. seems like a crap load of folks have a one timer power. and pollux you kind of hosed my power in that it is one a one timer as well. but we have someone who has claimed a two timer. don't know the significance but just thought i'd mention it. That’s not what I took away from that statement. I suppose that could have been what was intended. Revisiting it I don’t recall what Pollux did to peeker ? [sceptic] As a one shot it could be a very clever cover for a Scum. Is it a one shot power only if it works, or one and done even if a Town was not found? Pretty good shot finding a Town player first try. [/s]
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Post by Hal Briston on Mar 22, 2012 12:21:11 GMT -5
Hi all -- apologies for the non-participation much of toDay...I've been home from work for three days while The Littlest Briston fights off a sinus/UR infection. No fun for an adult, less so for a six-year-old.
I have quite a bit of catching up to do, but I'll get something together by dusk.
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Post by Silver Jan on Mar 22, 2012 12:32:17 GMT -5
I have to agree that gnarly's post does look as if he is talking to fellow scum and his posts since then just look as if he is covering up a mistake. His reply to Meeko looks a bit OTT and it's pinging the hell out of me. Up until I read that reply I wasn't quite sure who to vote for but the
really made me think hmm, gnarly is scum again.
Vote gnarlycharlie
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Post by Suburban Plankton on Mar 22, 2012 12:41:58 GMT -5
I've finally gotten the chance to get back to the game. I've reviewed everything up through Night 2, and am about to start in on Day 3. I hope to have some useful commentary and a vote before EoD, which is in a little more than 3 hours, correct?
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Post by Chronos on Mar 22, 2012 12:47:35 GMT -5
[/s][/quote]Eh, even as a one-shot, it's decently powerful-- Being able to do that repeatedly would make him better than a cop. As for finding Town on his first try, well, we have numbers on our side. Even if Town isn't a strict majority (possible, I suppose, with how many 3rd parties we have), there still have to be a large proportion of Townies. And if he had "failed", that would in some sense be even luckier, since then he'd have someone he knew wasn't a Townie, which is very valuable information.
And I'm not convinced that that post of gnarly's was a slip, but I can certainly see the case, and would really like to hear him defending himself.
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Post by Pollux Oil on Mar 22, 2012 13:01:26 GMT -5
Sorry everyone, got a little busy the last two days. Time to get my vote on! Let's read through what I missed real quick. This isn't scum hunting, it's confirmation bias. I hate to tell you, because all that enthusiasm would probably be better served doing some thinking. This is interesting. Pizzaguy mentions confirmation bias as the reason people are voting for him...and yet he performs confirmation bias on both Idle Thoughts and sinjin. "They must be scum because they're voting for me and I voted for one and blocked the other." It's another do-as-I-say, not-as-I-do moment. For the rest of the game, do me a favor, and remind yourselves to poke several persons a round, reason or not. Because it's the town thing to do. Failwagons are wagons with little or shitty reasoning, on a townie, the main focus of a round, in such a way that it dominates all discussion. That's why they fail. Lynching a townie in and of itself is not the end of the world, townies are foot soldiers who are ready to die. The fail is when you learn nothing because you've pressured no one else, considered no other possibilities, and asked no questions. This bugs me, because while pizzaguy has been the main wagon today, I'm not entirely sure we've had a lack of pressure on anyone else. The thing about pizzaguy, well, pressuring us to pressure people is that pressuring results in role claims. We've already had a lot of claiming...why do we want more? I'm pretty sure there's been plenty of pressure on other people that aren't pizzaguy as well...people like Meeko, Lightfoot, Rysto...I just don't see how that because the main wagon got a lot of votes, we aren't playing the game and questioning other people. Can someone with better Mafia Math skills help me out here? Have we effectively wiped out our lead from Night 1, given the mislynches we have had of late? Are you always normally this hysterical? We've killed two scum. In a game this size, I'd probably say six or seven scum at most. Town always has the number advantage...we've lost 3 town to 2 scum to 3 third-parties. That's not terrible, not great, but not terrible. This isn't Conspiracy where lynching a town has detrimental effects. Also, we haven't technically mislynched. We haven't lynched scum, but we haven't lynched town yet either. This really seems like you're trying to create hysteria when there is none to be had yet. I highly doubt we're anywhere close to lynch or lose on Day 3, especially after the deaths of two scum. Again, I'm of the mentality that Scum have special powers too, just like the Townies do. They may have multiple actions, multiple abilities, etc- just like in the last Arkham game. So for scum, it would behoove them to be allowed to live another day- it basically gives them a chance to maybe use a secret power or a one time ability, and that's not something I care to expose us to, ya know? I pretty much agree with everything SBrOwn said regarding Meeko's idea of leaving askthepizzaguy alive for more information. /deadly device fistbump Also, I will note that Idle has said before that he always claims immediately as town. Why wait a day? Yeah, this is what's bugging me about Idle's claim. Why did he wait until Day 3? I know he was sickish, so that might be his excuse considering he barely checked in all of Day One and never even voted. But he was around for some of Day Two, I would have expected his off-the-wall claim then...why the long delay? Bottom line, I just can't play power roles in vanilla games stress-free anymore. The having to hide it from town...the worrying about making a slip due to your power and having everyone else think you're scum because of it (rather than a power role), the having to claim when you're one vote away from being lynched and having your claim be out there ANYWAY..... ..no, It's much easier for me just to claim it out in the open whenever it's a vanilla game, from the START...which I would have done in THIS case had I known it was a game that had vanilla town. Hmmmmm. Putting this on the backburner for now. I'm on the side of believing Idle at the moment...but his trickery in previous games still makes my ears burn with a teensy bit of suspicion. But that's basing my analysis on previous games and not this particular one, so I'll let it slide for now. When I wiki'd this game Hugo was a bad guy but so am I , I am not prepared to vote for Rysto now We have no reason to suspect he's a good guy or a bad guy based on his name! Just because wikipedia says so doesn't mean storyteller says so! In his X-Men game, Storm and Professor X were scum! Did I say this already?! I might have said this already! More exclamation points!!!!!!!!!!! Sigh!!!! Pollux, I'd like to hear who you would vote for, if you were to vote. I will vote, and soon. This device does not scare me! I think I now have enough information to sort through the mess of role-blocking data we have. This Morning, Gadarene claimed to have been blocked. Presumably, this was done by a Scum role-blocker, since Gadarene is close to being confirmed Town, and so a Town roleblocker shouldn't have targeted him. Meanwhile, pizzaguy claims to have blocked sinjin, which she can neither confirm nor deny. Now, if pizzaguy is Scum, this claim would have run the risk that she would deny it, and so I don't think a scummy pizzaguy would have made that claim without some way of mitigating that risk. One way to do so would be if the Scum roleblocker ( pizza or otherwise) really had targeted sinjin, but that's inconsistent with Gadarene having been blocked. Another would be if they'd already investigated her and found her to have no powers, a possibility I admit I can't rule out. And the third way would be if sinjin is also Scum and going along with the deception. But given pizzaguy's apparent complete unfamiliarity with the concept of Scum throwing each other under the bus, I don't actually believe that a scummy pizza would have voted for a scummy sinjin. I think I'm actually falling afoul of Hanlon's Razor, here. This is a good point, and the only reason I'm not immediately plunking down a vote on pizzaguy. My only thought is...what if pizzaguy's lying? What if he was the one that blocked Lightfoot? What if Meeko's his scum buddy and when he claimed, he just threw out Meeko's name and Meeko was like "uh, sure, yeah, you blocked me! wink wink nudge nudge say no more" That's overly convoluted, though, and I like to ascribe to Occam's Razor while scum-hunting. It's still a possibility, but...the way the pizza wagon took off plus the thoughts about blocking. Hm, gonna do some voting analysis here real quick before I vote. Oh, one other point about the role-blocking: We had two different people claim to have been blocked on Night 1. If they're both telling the truth, that suggests that there is a Town roleblocker in addition to a Scum one, and nobody's counterclaimed pizza. Now, granted, neither of those two people who claimed to have been blocked is someone I trust all that much, and it's possible that we have a Town blocker who just hasn't thought it worthwhile to counterclaim pizza, but still, it's more assumptions we have to make to be consistent with pizza being Scum. There were three pro-town roleblockers in the first Arkham. If pizza is a town roleblocker, there is no reason to assume the other roleblockers are not town just because he was one. However, as you stated before, since Gadarene was leaning heavily on the pro-town spectrum, it makes more sense for a scum to have blocked her...him? Revisiting it I don’t recall what Pollux did to peeker ? I outed his power as a one-shot. When he explained his power, I theorized (I think it was in the Night One thread) that unless the power was a one-shot, it would be a very overpowered role since he'd basically be able to investigate who is and isn't town each Day by shooting off a message. He'd basically be a self-confirming Detective which is super, super overpowered. And by theorizing that I basically let the cat out of the bag and revealed his power was a one-shot before he did. ---- Okay! That was a lot to catch up on. Time to do some analysis.
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