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Post by CatInASuit on Aug 1, 2013 3:46:47 GMT -5
Twinkle, Twinkle little star, we don't wonder what you are. We have seen right through that lie and right now its time to die... Today's choice was made: DizzyMrsLizzy aka Twinkle Twinkle Little Star (Knave of Hearts - Watcher)Congratulations to the town for rooting out the Knave of Hearts and his minions. Those left alive were: BillMc aka The Owl (Duke of York - Mason)Meeko aka Blind Mice #2 (Duke of York - Mason)Colby11 aka Little Bo Peep (Duke of York - Vigilante)Peace can now return to the Land of Childhood Tales ~~~~~~~ I'll open uip the boards for all to see. Scum Board here: catinasuitmafia.proboards.com/board/4/knaveofheartsSetup/Spoiler Boards here: catinasuit.proboards.com/board/3/nursery-crimesThank you all for playing - I hope you enjoyed it.
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Post by BillMc on Aug 1, 2013 4:22:42 GMT -5
Yay Town. Spoiler board doesn't appear to be open.
Gotta say I loved Pleo's false breadcrumbs of being the vig
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Post by dizzymrslizzy on Aug 1, 2013 8:46:25 GMT -5
Yeah and no one believed me that Pleo was trying to get us to kill him! BLAH!
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Meeko
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Post by Meeko on Aug 1, 2013 9:03:05 GMT -5
So what does a "right" counterclaim look like then?
Who the hell places a multi vote first thing? If you guys REALLY. Don't see the scum motivation there, you are beyond help.
About me flailing like a fish - we won didnt we? Oh, and Pleonast actually said something good about me? Wow.
But note the times I go lone wolf, how much better I am than when I simply follow. the Nonsense generator finds a truffle every now and then, and it's better than the average townie find.
My play is my play. Our group has advanced beyond branding it "Meeko" play. So you guys are used to it. I'm not changing it. That would be no fun for me. Heh heh heh.
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Meeko
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Post by Meeko on Aug 1, 2013 10:16:52 GMT -5
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Post by Pleonast on Aug 1, 2013 11:14:58 GMT -5
So what does a "right" counterclaim look like then? Who the hell places a multi vote first thing? If you guys REALLY. Don't see the scum motivation there, you are beyond help. About me flailing like a fish - we won didnt we? Oh, and Pleonast actually said something good about me? Wow. But note the times I go lone wolf, how much better I am than when I simply follow. the Nonsense generator finds a truffle every now and then, and it's better than the average townie find. My play is my play. Our group has advanced beyond branding it "Meeko" play. So you guys are used to it. I'm not changing it. That would be no fun for me. Heh heh heh. You are playing better, Meeko. But, in my opinion, there's two flaws to your play. 1) You get too hung up on the "right" way to play. See your comment above about multi-voting first thing. We're too diverse a group to be able to find scum by looking for different play styles. I can say this from long experience--we've had so many mislynches based on "I don't see how town could do that" that I know it's not productive. 2) You never seem to consider the hypothetical possibility that another player is town. Once you get in your head that someone is scum, everything they say (or don't say) simply confirms it for you. You need to be able to reassess that a player is not scum, before they get lynched. I greatly approve of players who take "lone wolf" approaches to the game. That's what I like to do. You simply need to allow other players to do the same, instead of simply jumping on them for a taking different angle.
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Meeko
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Post by Meeko on Aug 1, 2013 13:36:25 GMT -5
So what does a "right" counterclaim look like then? Who the hell places a multi vote first thing? If you guys REALLY. Don't see the scum motivation there, you are beyond help. About me flailing like a fish - we won didnt we? Oh, and Pleonast actually said something good about me? Wow. But note the times I go lone wolf, how much better I am than when I simply follow. the Nonsense generator finds a truffle every now and then, and it's better than the average townie find. My play is my play. Our group has advanced beyond branding it "Meeko" play. So you guys are used to it. I'm not changing it. That would be no fun for me. Heh heh heh. You are playing better, Meeko. But, in my opinion, there's two flaws to your play. 1) You get too hung up on the "right" way to play. See your comment above about multi-voting first thing. We're too diverse a group to be able to find scum by looking for different play styles. I can say this from long experience--we've had so many mislynches based on "I don't see how town could do that" that I know it's not productive. 2) You never seem to consider the hypothetical possibility that another player is town. Once you get in your head that someone is scum, everything they say (or don't say) simply confirms it for you. You need to be able to reassess that a player is not scum, before they get lynched. I greatly approve of players who take "lone wolf" approaches to the game. That's what I like to do. You simply need to allow other players to do the same, instead of simply jumping on them for a taking different angle. Would you say mine is a problem of abstraction?
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Post by Mahaloth on Aug 1, 2013 14:11:08 GMT -5
Cool. Good for us. Yay!
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Post by Pleonast on Aug 1, 2013 14:16:50 GMT -5
Would you say mine is a problem of abstraction? I'm not sure what you mean by that. Maybe something like "asymmetric generalization"? You are suspicious of players who use atypical tactics, while you yourself use atypical tactics. That is, Meeko would be very suspicious of another Meeko-like player. By the way, I don't think that I'm an especially good at mafia. I do the tactics well (like figuring out the relative strength of the positions, and making good moves or feints), but I'm terrible at evaluating alignment from intuition. Which is why I take a very by-the-numbers approach and am willing to take risks for commensurate rewards. Because I understand exactly what the terms are and so I try to force my opponents to miscalculate. But figuring out who's scum simply by the tone of their posts: I get nothing (not that I don't try ). Other players are very good at that. The bottom line is everyone approaches the game from a different angle. As long as you allow for that and explain your angle, you'll be doing as well as any of us.
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Aug 1, 2013 15:02:40 GMT -5
Good game, everybody. I think the balance and set up was spot on, at least for how our particular batch of unique snow flakes chose to play their hands. I'd be curious to see how it would be played by a different field of players.
One minor thing that you might consider changing, is waiting until the last vote count to display boosted votes. I think most people would consider a scum vote-booster to be an unlikely role. Making it a confirmable power during the Day cycle vs at Dusk seems too heavy-handed towards Town.
Meeko, have you seen World War Z yet? I think you just need to employ something like to the '10th Man' principle as explained by the Mossad agent in Jerusalem. In a nut shell, the 10th Man's duty is to make contingency preparations for the possibility that any consensus arrived at by the other 9 is wrong. Not trying to suggest that you have multiple personality disorder, but come to think of it that is pretty much how I happen to play the game, by letting the warring interpretations duke it out inside my head.
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Post by texcat on Aug 1, 2013 15:27:12 GMT -5
Yeah and no one believed me that Pleo was trying to get us to kill him! BLAH! Hmmm. I was the one lobbying for killing Jaade instead of Pleo, but I think that was based more on the fact that killing the doc was more important than killing the vig. Although, I saw on the spoiler boards that Jaade self-protected that night, so it probably would have turned out worse for us. You did a great job, MrsLizzy, surviving until the very end, but there was no way with 3 masons and a vig left. And well done, Town!
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Post by gnarlycharlie on Aug 2, 2013 0:22:55 GMT -5
nice one, Town! thanks for the game, CIAS!
good try, Lizzy.
still don't understand why people believed Pizza more. my analysis of his PM and posts were one of my best EVER. *shrugs*
Oh, i was right about Pizza being at odds with a scum mate. that made me very happy.
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Post by guiri on Aug 2, 2013 13:53:58 GMT -5
Yay! Go Town, well played!
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Meeko
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Post by Meeko on Aug 3, 2013 10:11:51 GMT -5
Per my mason claim, did I play that right? Both in terms of waiting until I did, and making sure to add that I was indeed the final / last mason?
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Post by texcat on Aug 3, 2013 20:12:23 GMT -5
Bah humbug!
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Post by Mahaloth on Aug 4, 2013 7:30:39 GMT -5
Per my mason claim, did I play that right? Both in terms of waiting until I did, and making sure to add that I was indeed the final / last mason? Yeah, I think all of us revealed at the right time this game. We actually did quite well as masons.
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Meeko
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Post by Meeko on Aug 4, 2013 14:58:13 GMT -5
Per my mason claim, did I play that right? Both in terms of waiting until I did, and making sure to add that I was indeed the final / last mason? Yeah, I think all of us revealed at the right time this game. We actually did quite well as masons. Even Moreso, given we had no off board.
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Colby11
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Post by Colby11 on Aug 4, 2013 23:53:21 GMT -5
Masons- great job
Me- wish I would have seen Pizza's wool before EOD on Day 2.
I was suspicious more of Cookies role, which is why they died Night 4. My list was plank, cookies, and dizzy.
Killing me, a plausible idea on the last day if I had killed a mason. Glad you guys didn't do that.
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Aug 5, 2013 2:11:47 GMT -5
Masons- great job Me- wish I would have seen Pizza's wool before EOD on Day 2. I was suspicious more of Cookies role, which is why they died Night 4. My list was plank, cookies, and dizzy. Killing me, a plausible idea on the last day if I had killed a mason. Glad you guys didn't do that. And the fact that my power as claimed was confirmed didn't make you any less inclined to kill me?
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Post by Pleonast on Aug 5, 2013 10:00:47 GMT -5
I was suspicious more of Cookies role, which is why they died Night 4. My list was plank, cookies, and dizzy. Did you consider not killing on Night Four? And the fact that my power as claimed was confirmed didn't make you any less inclined to kill me? If they were intent on killing someone, the only choices were dizzy and you. Both of you had demonstrated your power, but neither could prove alignment. Of course, your overall voting record was very pro-town, and dizzy's was not, so that should've been a big factor.
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Colby11
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Post by Colby11 on Aug 5, 2013 12:40:21 GMT -5
Masons- great job Me- wish I would have seen Pizza's wool before EOD on Day 2. I was suspicious more of Cookies role, which is why they died Night 4. My list was plank, cookies, and dizzy. Killing me, a plausible idea on the last day if I had killed a mason. Glad you guys didn't do that. And the fact that my power as claimed was confirmed didn't make you any less inclined to kill me? I could have seen your power as either town or scum, so i didn't want to chance it. In hindsight, I should have taken out Dizzy before you, but at least we won
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Aug 5, 2013 14:31:20 GMT -5
Perhaps I am channeling my inner Meeko here, but I find it hard to think of a scenario where
A) If I were Town
and
B) All other things being equal
and
C) If the Scum were able to manipulate even a single extra vote by boosting someone
and
D) they won that lynch by that vote
...that would seem very likely to leave me feeling shitty and cheated as a Townie.
It seems too volatile for Scum to be able to wield something like that, along with all of their insights.
Ergo, I think it is unlikely as a scum role. In a Gastard game perhaps. But not a straight up game as this one was.
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Post by Høøpy Frøød on Aug 5, 2013 19:39:18 GMT -5
Yeah, vote charging is an extremely powerful scum power.
As I realized in Malazan halfway through the game. (Where for those who aren't familiar with the game, everyone was playing for himself, but could officially ally with up to three other people if he wanted and could unofficially ally with anyone.)
Fortunately, the vote-charging never came into play. One of the vote chargers died early, and the other one (guiri, IIRC) won the game without really using his power.
But I remember the moment where I realized that the remaining vote charger could have actually won the game single-handedly if he started burning his votes. We gave both of them way too much power. They could have formed a team of just the two of them and pretty much destroyed everyone. Town vote-chargers are actually balanced. Scum vote-chargers are overpowered. And the PFK vote charger with a fixed number of charges can be an interesting mechanic, but if you allow it to ally with other characters you are opening up a can of worms.
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Meeko
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Post by Meeko on Aug 5, 2013 20:32:46 GMT -5
Perhaps I am channeling my inner Meeko here, but I find it hard to think of a scenario where A) If I were Town and B) All other things being equal and C) If the Scum were able to manipulate even a single extra vote by boosting someone and D) they won that lynch by that vote ...that would seem very likely to leave me feeling shitty and cheated as a Townie. It seems too volatile for Scum to be able to wield something like that, along with all of their insights. Ergo, I think it is unlikely as a scum role. In a Gastard game perhaps. But not a straight up game as this one was. Thanks?
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Post by Pleonast on Aug 6, 2013 9:28:59 GMT -5
Perhaps I am channeling my inner Meeko here, but I find it hard to think of a scenario where A) If I were Town and B) All other things being equal and C) If the Scum were able to manipulate even a single extra vote by boosting someone and D) they won that lynch by that vote ...that would seem very likely to leave me feeling shitty and cheated as a Townie. It seems too volatile for Scum to be able to wield something like that, along with all of their insights. Ergo, I think it is unlikely as a scum role. In a Gastard game perhaps. But not a straight up game as this one was. You're letting your perfect information show. The other players didn't know exactly what your power was. If it was as claimed, then yes it's very likely to be a town role. Especially because towards the end of the game, the distribution of powers was mostly known and it didn't seem to be balanced with scum having your claimed power. But you could've been lying about the specifics of your power. Maybe you were scum and there was a restriction on your vote charging power. Like it was one-shot, or it could only target town, or it needed to be activated somehow. Remember, it was only Day Four that you managed to show your power worked. It's quite possible your earlier failures were because you were a scum lying rather that a townie with bad luck.
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