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Post by NAF1138 on Mar 20, 2008 18:19:32 GMT -5
Dunno, personally I am hoping a doc will through a protect our way, but I hardly ever make it past Day 2 so I am not really expecting much. You made it all the way to the end of YSI, and if I'm reading the mood here correctly that's better than we can expect for Dio and Roosh. That actually made me laugh out loud. ;D Poor Roosh and Dio, they don't have ANY idea what they are in for.
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Post by Høøpy Frøød on Mar 20, 2008 18:20:04 GMT -5
AH! RIGHT! I remember now. (Thanks for the help, I couldn't handle scouring the thread for a single post right now.) The question wasn't relevant, because motivation assumes that you are doing something on purpose. Santo thought he caught you making a mistake. So you wouldn't have had a motivation other than to look townie and make an innocuous post. He thought you scewed up and exposed yourself as scum. So motive didn't really play into it. I still am glad you asked. ;D Gotcha. Thanks.
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Post by Høøpy Frøød on Mar 20, 2008 18:25:14 GMT -5
I read your post, NAF, and let me confirm that I'm grokking you correctly. I think you're saying that Sinjin was the first to go out on a limb and mention that her win condition didn't quite match exactly what Smurf had posted, after Rysto said that his matched exactly, and how that wouldn't be something that scum would do. Is that a correct assessment of your point? Yes. For now I think it is enough to give me pause. It would be a VERY risky thing for scum to do. I don't consider sinj cleared, but I am giving him a +1 for town points. (BTW, according to profile, Sinj is a she.) Gotcha. Since I'm going out soon, it'll be something I'll think about. I probably won't be back until Friday (I took this whole week off from work, so I should be back at the latest early afternoon, more likely sometime in the morning). The best Sinjin will get from me at this point without her stating a defense of her own is an FOS. I'm not removing my vote yet, but I'll mull over your point and combine that with whatever gets posted between now and when I come back.
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Post by Rysto on Mar 20, 2008 18:28:42 GMT -5
Something else on Kat: as mentioned, she hasn't posted much during the game(17 times total, if I've added correctly). But look at her reaction when Roosh asked whether he should start the game right away or wait until 1 AM in the Night Zero thread:
For someone who was so anxious to play, she hasn't been saying much.
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Post by sinjin on Mar 20, 2008 18:37:33 GMT -5
Is the way that the Hoopy Frood thing went down bothering anybody else? We all agree that name claims aren't very helpful, especially in light of the "Playing for Keeps" group. Then some Frood gets some heat. He name claims. And everybody pressuring him immediately backs off. The discussion just dies. This makes me a bit suspicious of those who were pressuring him in the first place. Is there any particular reason that they were so ready to believe the name claim meant that Frood was Town? The inconsistency bugs me, but I'm not sure if it's a case of townies not practicing what had been preached or if it was a case of perfect knowledge syndrome on the part of a scum. Sinjin wonders why Zuma claimed. The only one who really has me wondering about intentions is the only person who has one post in the above list. She voted with little justification, and then dropped out of the discussion. She didn't even find it odd when Zuma name claimed. She disappeared. She didn't even unvote me until page 2 of the second thread. Granted, I might have missed something, and if I did, I welcome it being pointed out, but until then: Vote SinjinUm read the above which you posted. I did find it odd that Zuma claimed, which I explained in a later post to ryjae. I've been having technical difficulties with my internet connections. I almost posted today in the SDMB thread which miraculousely I could post to, about not being able to post here. I had a similar problem on the SDMB a couple of days ago in which Fluid posted a "test" post for me. If you want I can quote that post. I will be back in the land of intrawebs tomorrow night. I have not been posting in my normal style, I like links and quotes, because my posts keep getting eaten. If you want I can delineate why your post did not make sense to me. Also, unless someone is in imminent danger of being voted off the island I don't remove my vote until I can think about it for a while. I don't believe in indescriminant voting and unvoting. Crosses fingers, and hits post without preview, for reasons already discussed.
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Post by diggitcamara on Mar 20, 2008 18:48:10 GMT -5
Something else on Kat: as mentioned, she hasn't posted much during the game(17 times total, if I've added correctly). But look at her reaction when Roosh asked whether he should start the game right away or wait until 1 AM in the Night Zero thread: For someone who was so anxious to play, she hasn't been saying much. Exactly. That was one of the points I was trying to make.
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Post by Hawkmod on Mar 20, 2008 18:49:39 GMT -5
I'm trying to post more, but it has been a long week, and I find the pace of this game thus far a bit overwhelming. I will say that I think we should be very careful about lynching individuals for bad logic. In my admittedly limited experience, I have found town members more likely to make bad arguments and omgus votes than scum. I also don't think pms will be terribly useful. My general feeling is there is a reason that the mods are letting us use them. I am thus suspicious of Cookies attitude to go after anyone who considers those candidates. I'm going to put her as #2 on my vote list.
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Post by ryjae on Mar 20, 2008 18:58:27 GMT -5
I cannot resist a post here I was trying to lay back on posting because well anything I said was taken as a bad thing. Heck nailed as a scum for reposting a link with more detail. I don't want to just throw a vote out, because that as well got me in trouble, but just reading here is not playing the game. I have nothing to hide so once again I'm going to start typing whats on my mind. First role PM's I can say without a doubt, no uncertain terms that you can be town and have a PM that doesn't match what has been posted already. The win condition is close to the same but other parts are a bit off in mine compared to some posted. Maybe it's because they took out crucial information to protect there abilities, but it's different for mine. My power/ability is rather unusual well not unusual but not the typical (from the current other game and reading through your old games) and needed some explaining so that may be why mine was a bit different. What does that mean? I don't know. I wasn't going to say anything for fear of being "different" but I feel its something that has to be out there. And I am willing to expand on it if it needs to be done to save my own ass. To be blunt, exposing it hurts town, but doesn't effect me quite the same way. On to lurkers, I picked on one already, sorry diggit But I did that not because the lack of posts but because his own first post in game encouraged going after lurkers. I do think heavy posters expose themselves more to innocent lynchings, and exposing tells. But lurkers only expose themselves to innocent lynchings, thus I believe doesn't make it fair to us trying to catch the tells. I know not everyone is home on disability but I don't think its to much to ask the people who don't post much to try a little harder to lay some ground down now. As someone that thought I could post with abandon because I had nothing to hide, this over analyzing of posts is scary to even the towniest of townfolks I believe. But since its the only way to come up with a vote on the first DaY well it has to be done. I don't like how sinjin voted on me, I'm not going to vote on her just because of that though. She apparently finds something I said worse than the others that wanted to know the same things. (regarding mole) I admitted my mistake to molefan right quick when it dawned on me what was going on. That's the only explanation I can give and it wasn't good enough. tdpatriot well that has been hashed and rehashed already. HawkeyeOp is actually the one that bothers me the most, like he wants a vote out there but not against someone that he thinks can fight back effectively. All I did to earn 2 outta 7 of his posts. For expanding on a link Hal posted. (Though I would've found them without Hal to be fair, since my PM did tell me I could possibly find more information on my character in wiki) Not scummy as much as mean to me for latching on to something I said trying to participate but not throwing enough out himself to share. (I know doesn't make much sense but it bothers me a bit) But to be fair I do not think he is scum. Just because of his one PFK post anyway I think.
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Post by Rysto on Mar 20, 2008 19:10:35 GMT -5
Ryjae, please don't stop posting because you've attracted a couple of votes. Lurking does not help us in the least.
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Post by Koldanar on Mar 20, 2008 19:11:31 GMT -5
Ok, since I'm here now, I thought I could at least make a list of those I find trustworthy (or at least, not worth voting for today). In no particular order :
The Dark Smurf. Revealed information first, verified against my own.
hockeymonkey. Another person who revealed valid (compared to my own pm) information.
hoopy frood. Displayed full role PM.
NAF. roleclaimed.
mole. Watched molegate. Roleclaimed.
Next, those who, while I'm not sure are town or not, I still wouldn't vote for.
storyteller. Nothing has struck me as particularly scummy. Nothing has seemed particularly non-scummy. Push.
zuma. Roleclaimed an obscure person, NAF's logic holds for me as well. Haven't played with zuma yet, but have heard he's agressive, but something about how he's presented doesn't strike me right. Doesn't mean scummy; and not worth voting on for sure.
tdpatriots. Vehemently on ryjae's case. His dogged pursuit (...ok I exaggerate; but he's still somewhat after him) seems like a fairly strong opinion on day one.
Hal Briston. Instincts say not scum; I don't much like my instincts right now (see other sdmb game), but not voting without something to base it on.
There are just so many things going on here...quite a few people I dont' have a read on, and I need to try to at least read the day one 19 page monster over again; my notes only started in part 2.
At this point, I'd probably go for a vote on a lurker, to get them talking, or almost any other person I have yet to mention. I'm strictly in the must lynch today camp now, and any gain of information is (in my mind) a good thing right now. Hopefully Tomorrow will bring more to the plate.
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Post by Koldanar on Mar 20, 2008 19:12:54 GMT -5
ryjae, see my first time playing in the Ancient China game; don't take it personal and keep going. By all means, while you might be in the lead now (I think?), thats going to change come tomorrow, as votes fly and roles are claimed. Should be a good show.
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Post by tdpatriots12 on Mar 20, 2008 19:18:53 GMT -5
tdpatriots. Vehemently on ryjae's case. His dogged pursuit (...ok I exaggerate; but he's still somewhat after him) seems like a fairly strong opinion on day one. Fair criticism, but as long as we're being fair... I'd say most of my talk of ryjae has been in self-defense of actions having nothing to do with my opinions of his scummyness, but what led me to it. Anyway, I did say earlier I was gonna resume my earlier canvassing of posts to see if I could find a better answer.
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Post by Hawkmod on Mar 20, 2008 19:20:15 GMT -5
Now 3 of 9 Honestly, I remembered that link being posted, but had to go back to see who made it. I decided to vote for that post before I checked who actually made it. So don't take it personally. If you want to know what I'm like when I latch on to someone, ask Brewka ;D
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Post by storyteller0910 on Mar 20, 2008 19:45:10 GMT -5
Fuck.
So I've been thinking about it a lot. Early on, when discussing my mass name claim idea, a lot of folks (myself included) presented as one of the objections the idea that Batman at least, and potentially other scum as well, might have been presented with fake identities, the better to blunt any attempt at breaking the game. And I processed this idea, and took it as somewhat- to moderately-likely, and went on to other things.
And then, sometime later, there came the mad rush of folks discussing PMs, and using fragments of PMs as ways of confirming the towniness, or lack thereof, of various players. But in his post above, NAF said something in passing that simply hadn't occurred to me before. I had been thinking that if the scum were provided with cover identities, that they'd be given a cover name as part of their own PM. That's how it was handled in the Firefly game, if I remember it correctly.
But one way to prevent any PM funny business would have been for the mods to simply send the scum a complete pro-Town PM as cover - complete with alignment and pro-Town win condition and "definitely a Baddie" and whatever else. And if they've done that, we're completely wasting our time.
And the idea seems pretty compelling. And so - sorry, zuma, HM, Smurf, but back in the pool with all y'all, at least as far as I am concerned.
I have another thought, but I'm going to put it in a separate message.
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Post by storyteller0910 on Mar 20, 2008 19:54:36 GMT -5
On Lurking
Do you all remember the lead-up to this game, including the discussion that took place before the game even started? I remember a fair amount of chatter at that time, to the effect that we had to put more pressure on lurkers and quiet posters, because the games were starting to come down to lynching the chatty people and leaving the quiet people alone at the end? This was pretty extensively discussed.
And now we're very near to the end of Day One, and I think it's late enough in the Day to say it: I don't think we should lynch anyone with fewer than 10-12 posts at the time I'm posting this message. Scum, coming into this game, were given advance warning that there would be extra attention given to quiet and less prolific posters. Is it really plausible that they would choose to lurk early in the game, and thus draw the promised attention? I kind of doubt it. Now of course, it's possible that they knew we would think like this, and lurked because we'd think they wouldn't lurk because we said we would put extra pressure on lurkers. But that way of thinking is turtles all the way down, in the end.
My hypothesis is that the majority of scum will be found outside of the least active posting tier. Discuss.
----
[oog] I had some very good news at work today, and along with dinner my wife was kind enough to provide me with a celebratory gift, which was dark red and drinkable. You have thus just seen my first two inebriated posts ever. I sincerely apologize for any incoherence, but I've been thinking about this stuff all afternoon and night and if I didn't get it typed out and posted, I'd have Mafia-related dreams (those are always unsettling). [/oog]
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Post by Rysto on Mar 20, 2008 19:56:14 GMT -5
Did storyteller just confess that he's a vampire?
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Post by ryjae on Mar 20, 2008 20:06:58 GMT -5
Well, naive maybe, but my thinking isn't so much that there are for sure scum hiding in the shadows. It's that we cannot get a feel on them, them being scum or not. I did vote for a lurker (removed already) but that wasn't for lurking as much as it was for his wanting to go after lurkers then well ya know, lurking himself. This is like a game of chess, and I hate chess. ;D
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Post by ryjae on Mar 20, 2008 20:08:16 GMT -5
Did storyteller just confess that he's a vampire? He didn't say "warm" or on the other hand, "cold and lumpy".
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Mar 20, 2008 20:15:50 GMT -5
All-inclusive-pre-fab claims for the scum strikes me as being so heavily pro-scum that I do not count it very high at all on the list of possible things to worry about. I mean...if the mods did that, without some seriously crazy pro-town balancing, the scum would not have to do anything to win (arguably easily) except show up every Day, not lurk too much, and act as townie as possible.
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Post by Gir! on Mar 20, 2008 20:39:43 GMT -5
I'd like to point out for the record that I'm not lurking. As always, I am unable to access the game board from work. Or, more accurately, I could probably access it, and then get fired for abusing the internet access at work, then have lots and lots of time to follow the game, but no money to pay for my internet connection, not to mention any other bills.
In regards to the pre-game posting, please notice that many of them, including the post Rysto quoted above, were made over the weekend, during which I have lots and lots of time to post, since I'm not working. Also notice, that I made the first game post in Day One at 12:08 am my time, soon after which I finally crashed for the night, both because I hit the wall and ran out of steam, and because I have to get up in 6:30 in the freaking morning to go to work. Since you day-access people have been generated a few hundred posts for me to read every day, plus I also have to make dinner, eat dinner and do various household chores, it's not unexpected for my posting rate to have gone down. Hell, I haven't even read all of today's posts yet.
As to the ryjae alignment situation, by the time I got back online after asking the question, Hoopy Frood had already made an almost identical comment about not knowing Baddie = Town, and it'd been discussed ad infinitum, including the following comments on the situation:
(both by storyteller)
Considering that the near-identical situation by Hoopy had been dismissed as a "trifling tell" with no objection from anyone else, I decided that pursuing it at that time wouldn't be an effective use of my time, and I'd revisit it later, even though ryjae never responded.
In addition, I've been in a delightfully horrid and awful mood since late afternoon on Monday, and I suggest you not ask me why, because I would abso-fucking-lutely tell you why, especially since I had a horrid day at work today on top of that mood, and have used up all my restraint on moronic customers and my mother (who is not moronic, but who I have had plans to have dinner with today for about 3 weeks and completely forgot about until this morning, so I did so, and acted like I was a pleasant human being for 2 hours, which was the limit of my capacity....and had 3 pieces of chocolate cake).
Much of which is totally and complete irrelevant to anything, but tough luck for you. I'll post something rational later.
(Wow. That was awfully therapeutic.)
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Post by ryjae on Mar 20, 2008 20:48:52 GMT -5
Yeah I had everything screwed up in my head, not in my PM. Thats why if look I've been using "town" and "scum" because I was getting confused early on. I knew in my own mind I am a bad guy but in here its a good guy or well the town and the town is supposed to be the good guys in other games. Batman here is the bad guy well actually a good guy but not really he is scum and must be dewinged and made into a pie. That's all messed up but hopefully you understand what I mean. And I didn't even notice your post until here, sorry Kat.
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Post by Drain Bead on Mar 20, 2008 21:02:52 GMT -5
I am having a lot of trougle following this game, in part due to the craziness that has been the last 12 hours of the SDMG game. Damn near 30 pages and I still don't really feel like I have a good read on anyone. I thought the gest argument that had geen made is the one regarding Kat and her lurkiness. In a game with this much noise, I think it gehooves scum to try to keep quiet. Gut then Kat came gy and posted a perfectly good reason for why she doesn't post as much, and I'm gack to square one. Gollucks. Gullshit.
Not to mention I took a fall on glack ice on my deck this morning and came down hard on my left side, and now I am covered in gruises and feel like I was in a minor car accident. And I know I'll only feel worse tomorrow. I'm hoping that I can come up with a half-decent vote gy tomorrow at noonish. Now I know what the townies felt like on Day One of Firefly.
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Post by ryjae on Mar 20, 2008 21:08:40 GMT -5
Not to mention I took a fall on glack ice on my deck this morning and came down hard on my left side, and now I am covered in gruises and feel like I was in a minor car accident. And I know I'll only feel worse tomorrow. . *oog* Almost exactly why I'm home on disability. I went into my office building and slid on the icy slush right inside the door falling and boy did it hurt. Hurt myself bad enough they had to do surgery on my back. Silly thing is I'm happy enough to be getting paid while recovering they thought I would actually sue or something for my own dumb slip.
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Post by Rysto on Mar 20, 2008 21:27:52 GMT -5
That's fair, Kat. Now that I think about it, I do recall that you have mentioned your job restricting from posting in past games.
Everyone, we have 22.5 hours left before the deadline. Do we really want to do the whole last-minute Day 1 lynch thing again? I guess it's one way to cut down on the number of claims we force but I'm not sure that it's the best policy.
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Post by Santo Rugger on Mar 20, 2008 21:28:08 GMT -5
*huggs to Kat* Sorry, you're a gal, I'm not going to ask for permission first.
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Post by Santo Rugger on Mar 20, 2008 21:39:22 GMT -5
All-inclusive-pre-fab claims for the scum strikes me as being so heavily pro-scum that I do not count it very high at all on the list of possible things to worry about. I mean...if the mods did that, without some seriously crazy pro-town balancing, the scum would not have to do anything to win (arguably easily) except show up every Day, not lurk too much, and act as townie as possible. You're joking, right? Oh my goodness, cookies, please tell me this is sarcasm? For those not familiar with the firefly game, cookies and I were scum together, and she was given a pre-fab role claim! Granted, it wasn't all inclusive, but we did a pretty darn good job of making it up. We all know Roosh and Dio are (barely) smarter than to let half the town get confirmed via PM quoting*. First, they are allowing us to quote our role PMs. There are things mods do to avoid that handshake. This isn't the first time this has come up, and there are several ways to deal with this. Your second point, about doing something crazy pro-town to balance it? In case you don't remember, ALL THE BADDIES HAVE SOME TYPE OF POWER. Seems like some would consider that "crazy pro-town". A very serious FOS on Cookies. But you were joking... right?
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Post by RoOsh on Mar 20, 2008 21:51:28 GMT -5
We have until midnight tomorrow right mods? Nope! It's been already addressed, but I'll reiterate it! Remember players DUSK IS AT 9PM EST, Friday! You All have less than 23 Hours to get in your Votes, Thoughts, Ideas, Witty Banter, Questions, Queries, and most importantly again Votes!So keep that in mind! And Remember, who ever has the most votes will be the one lynched! Even if its only 2 votes, if its more than anyone else, it still counts! Even if its a Tie, Someone Dies! Take Care and Good Luck!
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Mar 20, 2008 21:57:35 GMT -5
A key point to my post was, indeed the phrase "all-inclusive". There was plenty more wiggle room for phrasing in the PMs of the Firefly game than in this one, based on what we've seen (allegedly) divulged by some and (allegedly) confirmed by others so far. And it was that wiggle room that made our fake claims even remotely possible. Not only that, but my contributions to the fake content was a blazing bitch to write.
So, unless pretty much every pro-town player was given an investigative power, so as to see who the night-killers are who kill each night, my opinion remains that the Mods would not provide the scum (i.e. any anti-town faction) with all-inclusive claims. Why? Because, as I said before, having such valuable commodities would require little if any risk-taking by Day by the scum. They could just put on a safe, town-seeming show by day, and kill by night. Even throwing blocking powers at them would just prolong the cycles of play-it-safe Days and Kill-what-you-can-catch nights. Ergo, all-inclusive fake claims just don't seem likely, imho.
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Post by Rysto on Mar 20, 2008 22:04:23 GMT -5
I'm not sure if storyteller was suggesting an all-inclusive pre-fab role claim. His point was that the scum could have been given access to a complete pro-Town Role PM -- it wouldn't even necessarily have to be filled in with a role name or anything. Just something like:
"This is what a pro-Town Role PM looks like: Name: <name> Alignment: Baddie (Town) Role: <role type> <role description>
You are <name>, and most definitely a baddie. <description>
Your Goal: All the Scummy Do-Gooders must be defeated, and all those maliciously playing for keeps must be defeated as well."
(The proceeding was typed from memory so don't bother analysing it for consistency with real pro-Town PMs)
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Post by Gir! on Mar 20, 2008 22:59:48 GMT -5
I've already responded to the lurking accusation, but here's some more: Not only that, but she has pretty much been "poking" people. Here she simply asks a question about "possible alignments". No follow-up I can see. Well, there's the fact that ryjae replied (not directly to that comment, but it addressed the question) and said "To be honest Rysto I didn't pay as much attention to my PM as I should have. I got my character name alignment read through the wiki paragraph I was given and went to wiki to read more about my character." and (this may have been in reply to my question, or just an OMG I screwed up comment) "And to show ya just how confused I was and am, baddies refers to us, it shouldn't. I just re-read my whole role PM again. I somehow applied baddies to scum and scum to scum. I hereby withdraw any credibility I was trying to get." I took both of those posts together to mean that he misread a reference to Baddies somewhere in his PM. Since my PM distinctly said Baddie (Town), that led directly to the question you quoted below, to find out if that meant his alignment said something different (such as "Do Gooder (Scum)" or "Playing for Keeps (something)" or "Serial Killer" or "The Muffin Man"). IOW: it was followed up on, and you quoted the followup! Already addressed. Funny thing, this quote was the followup you say you never saw. The entirety of my "active" participation in "stoking the fire" against drainbead was "Um, I think there's a typo in there, drainbead. (Let's pick them nits.)" I expected no more than an "Oops, typo" type response (because if she were faking it, why wouldn't she just C&P someone else's objective?) but had a pipedream that if she were scum, she'd try to overexplain it. I've never heard of The Ventriloquist or Scarface, so it would never have dawned on me that there was any game-related meaning behind it. (Yes, I never visited the wiki list of villians, til right now. Even there, it says nothing about the B/G thing.) Hell, the G is right next to and above the B, and probably an easy typo to make. My "active" encouragement of the discussion of the slight differences in objectives is one line in one post "Well, and "Playing for Keeps" is capitalized." This post, jumping in on the "definitely a Baddie" discussion was essentially a "screw it, if everyone else is going to babble on about the wording, I'll stop bucking the trend." (I had one other post that I can recall about Role PM differences, comparing the already posted nameclaims to Rysto's general format post.) So, two posts total in relation to the whole "nitpick the role PMs" discussion. Was this all a deliberate mischaracterization?
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