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Post by Idle Thoughts on Nov 13, 2007 15:37:20 GMT -5
Idle Thoughts, I hope I haven't done anything to upset you in the two games that I've played. While I truly don't understand you, I think that is part of the fun. And I'm inclined to think that you don't understand me either. Anyway, if I've done anything to upset you, I assure you it was unintentional and I offer apologies. On a lighter note: There are two other males who my mind does this with simply because I thought they were females for so long. It's impossible, now, for my mind to wrap around anything otherwise. sach and atarus. sach is the worst, though. When I type pronouns, I ALWAYS make them "she" and "her" on the SDMB and then have to smack my head and go back and correct them. I'm sure there's been some that I've missed. I know there has, in fact, because sach has to say, sometimes "I'm a guy". But my mind just don't see that, hahaha. Does it help if I tell you I'm married to a man? It's okay. I just I just feel low because everyone's always telling me how much I messed up (or so it seems) in every game and never any "way to go! I want Idle on my team next time!" Like I see with other people. Or "wow, that was clever" instead of "wow, what is Idle thinking? " Oh yeah? Are you really? Haha.
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Post by NAF1138 on Nov 13, 2007 16:17:17 GMT -5
It's okay. I just I just feel low because everyone's always telling me how much I messed up (or so it seems) in every game and never any "way to go! I want Idle on my team next time!" Like I see with other people. Or "wow, that was clever" instead of "wow, what is Idle thinking? " I was very excited to have you on my team in M5. You are being selective in your memory Idle. I am a bit sad that you won't be playing for a while, I always think you add a perspective that is different and interesting to the game. Some of your plans this game were...bad, but mostly your stayed away from the bad plans, and the plans that you did implement lead directly to Roosh claiming and the town winning the game. You don't play the way people expect, and that gets frustrating, but after watching Firefly play out I think it is people's expectations that are getting in the way more then anything.
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Post by diggitcamara on Nov 13, 2007 17:49:10 GMT -5
And, concerning Idle's mafia-"persona", what I've noticed is that so far it's not changed very much at all. You don't seem very introspective, Idle, and are actually offended when someone dares to suggest that you've made a mistake. I don't see how. I think and feel I'm one of the people in the games that actually always tries to keep their mind open to ever y option. Well..... no. Look at your past games. Look at your posts. For instance, look at your arguments with (against?) sachertorte. My point is: At first your argument seemed reasonable. But it quickly turned into an "ego-first" fight. You just knew he wasn't maximizing his role for the town's benefit. And you knew you had proven your towniness, and he was just unreasonable. And that kept on going long after anyone and everyone was certain sacher was right and you were wrong. But that was based on seeing info I shouldn't have. Had I not seen that info, I would have never thought it. The info I saw, if you remember, was that either SCL or Rachm was scum. One or the other. I just happened to choose wrong. But it was knowing that, for certain, one or the other was scum that made it easier to stonewall in my beliefs. Because you were privy to hidden information you took very unkindly to anyone who questioned your ideas. But you weren't able to modify your conceptions even when there was overwhelming data to change your mind. (Look at your " SnakesCatLady persecution" again. You had decided one of your potential targets was the "right" one and attacked anyone who went against the "right" choice. However, your potential choices should have included Rachm. And you chose to ignore that option because you were certain you were right. You never questioned your first choice. You chose to question those who criticized that choice. Like many people have said in this thread: separate your persona from your self. And don't take your persona seriously. These games are supposed to be fun, after all. Well they're not fun for me anymore. Because people keep saying my ego gets in the way when I don't even have any ego to begin with (it was thrown onto the floor many, many years ago). I don't understand how you say it is. How so? Your actions bely your words. You put yourself front and center and need to be the "winning factor" of a game. Seriously. Look at your posts during the "first game". You actually got angry at anyone who dismissed your ideas. You kept speaking about your "experience" in these kinds of games. Look at the "pirate" game on these boards. When you were framed your first reaction was "ok by me, but tomorrow you'll see you were right" (which, without additional evidence, was actually the "correct" stance for a vanilla crewperson) but grew into a cacophonic defense which finally had to be resolved by someone else! Even your relatively understated role in Pleonast's "Conspiracy" provided many distractions. And again it came from your apparent idea that you had "one of the most important roles in the game" (paraphrased, from memory). Granted, many of us questioned sachertorte at first but we all soon revisited our arguments against him and came to the conclusion that he was doing things for a reason. And that there was evidence that proved us wrong. I don't know why you say you have no ego. But during these games you haven't displayed lack of ego. What I have seen is excess of ego. Or at least a lack of introspection (or, in other words, a rereading of posts to question whether a choice, an inferred idea was actually right). And you seriously need to separate your game persona from your actual ego. (I don't think I'm the best example for this behavior. Maybe Pygmy, because he has always had to play scum?) Though, if you're right that in real life you have no ego, maybe you have to bring your real life persona to bear during these games?
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Post by diggitcamara on Nov 13, 2007 18:06:51 GMT -5
Idle Thoughts, I hope I haven't done anything to upset you in the two games that I've played. While I truly don't understand you, I think that is part of the fun. And I'm inclined to think that you don't understand me either. Anyway, if I've done anything to upset you, I assure you it was unintentional and I offer apologies. On a lighter note: Does it help if I tell you I'm married to a man? It's okay. I just I just feel low because everyone's always telling me how much I messed up (or so it seems) in every game and never any "way to go! I want Idle on my team next time!" Like I see with other people. Or "wow, that was clever" instead of "wow, what is Idle thinking? " Oh yeah? Are you really? Haha. And actually I think that's not quite right. I was annoyed at you during Gadarene's game for one game decision ( SnakeCatLady's lynching). Other than that, I think you played very well during that game. And what I have seen in other games makes me believe that you're a pretty good player (didn't you save someone during the Firefly game?) If I had to point out a flaw in your gameplay it's that you need to integrate yourself more to the team, instead of trying to impose your style. Or maybe just improve your skill at exchanging ideas.
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Post by Idle Thoughts on Nov 13, 2007 21:49:21 GMT -5
Thank you, NAF. Well..... no. Look at your past games. Look at your posts. For instance, look at your arguments with (against?) sachertorte. My point is: At first your argument seemed reasonable. But it quickly turned into an "ego-first" fight. You just knew he wasn't maximizing his role for the town's benefit. And you knew you had proven your towniness, and he was just unreasonable. Why do you think this? It's wrong. I never "knew" that I had proven my towniness. I actually figured that most would probably not believe me or be leery. And I still don't know what advantage there was to holding info back. I think things would have worked out a lot different had he just said "Look, Rysto is a Witch". Wrong about what? What game were you playing then? I said I suspected Rachm a LOT after I saw what I did. But my point remains the same. My actions and thoughts in that one all came from seeing the info I shouldn't. The cause had an effect. I don't see or remember how I dismissed anything. You make it sound like people were shouting at me to listen and I was posting "Nope. Can't have that." Don't you remember I was hard up on fluid in that game early on and turned out to be right? What about that? Isn't that worthy of a "well, you are pretty good at knowing who is scum fairly quickly"? Why not that instead of "You have an ego in these games"? Or heck, even both of them...just as long as "you're pretty good" is said, at least? That's all I want. It just seems that most are saying "you have these problems" other than "You did great with this". What else could I say? What, should I have just given up? Don't you remember I was hard up on NAF in that game early on and turned out to be right? What about that? What about a "wow, you were right on him all long." instead of a "you did nothing but whine and cry about people who didn't believe you"? Or even both, just so long as I get credit for the knowing he was scum? : / Well, sorry for that but it was just my opinion that a role that could raise the dead is importnat. I even asked Pleonast this "Wow, it sounds like this might be one of the most important roles in the game....I don't know if I'm up for it. I might screw it up" and he PMed me back and said "Yeah, it is...but I have faith in you". But really, it just seems like I screwed it up like I figured I would. And what of this game? I knew DB was scum wayyy on..and nobody believed that anyone (especially not me) could be so good as to know she was scum or even get the role right "Scum roleblocker". This after a game where I get called "jackass" and "obtuse" and "slow" (remember Day One?) and get voted on just because I don't understand a FREAKING RULE AND THEN BLAMED FOR IT ALL. Blamed because I derailed the whole game that first Day and everyone was mad at me and yadda yadda yadda and blah blah blah and what about a simple "wow, Idle, you knew DB was scum! That was pretty good" but no, instead it's "Even your ego came out in that game Idle" and what ego? I don't even have an ego and whatever ego I might have had was destroyed long ago so why don't you just all leave me alone? I'm sorry I ever made this topic and I'm tired of it now just like I'm of playing the game. All I want is just some recognition that I'm good and all and I hardly ever get it and am I stupid and pathetic to care? Yeah. Immature? Probably. But it's how I feel nevertheless. And this topic just isn't helping..all this topic is doing is making me feel more and more like people are saying "well, you DO have problems in the game". Well that's great. Everyone has problems. I just wish people would start patting my back and saying "aww, there there Idle. You're good and great and smart" and a pity party? Yeah, that's what this is. Because I think sometimes people need just that when they don't feel like they've gotten it for awhile.
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Death By Irony
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Post by Death By Irony on Nov 13, 2007 22:03:40 GMT -5
*patpats Idle*
You do have a better scumdar than most of us. But the way you go about convincing the rest of us makes us paranoid. (Because no townie can POSSIBLY be THAT sure - and then the WIFOM headache starts.)
And you get very defensive when people voice suspicion of you. Like I pointed out, the way you play always attracts attention, either through townies who find your aggressiveness scummy, or scum who want to bank on poking you until you explode in 72-point font.
In the Firefly game, I couldn't figure out why you felt me so very threatening. I never could buy your claim of your powers being split, and though I've sinced learned that townies do bluff and play gambits, I generally operate under the policy of Lynch (or at least Suspect) All Liars. And your prickly defensiveness, when I was the lone voice that said "hey, Idle's suspicious", made me feel like maybe I was onto something. I just made the wrong leap of "Idle is lying about that extra Doc thing, ergo he must be scum".
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Gir!
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Post by Gir! on Nov 13, 2007 22:10:12 GMT -5
It's okay. I just I just feel low because everyone's always telling me how much I messed up (or so it seems) in every game and never any "way to go! I want Idle on my team next time!" Like I see with other people. Or "wow, that was clever" instead of "wow, what is Idle thinking? " Are you kidding? You were my idol in M5.
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Post by Death By Irony on Nov 13, 2007 22:19:39 GMT -5
Also, to join in on the pity party: What the heck is it about me that you guys find so scummy? I was lynched twice (TWICE! *shakes fist*) in this game! I have since resigned myself that the Shiny Post Fiasco in the Psycopath game was my fault, but I remain utterly perplexed that so many people were convinced that I couldn't possibly be telling the truth or be pro-town. (Again, more gloating: TOLD YOU JUBAL EARLY WAS CREW! ;D)
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Post by Idle Thoughts on Nov 13, 2007 23:13:55 GMT -5
*patpats Idle* You do have a better scumdar than most of us. But the way you go about convincing the rest of us makes us paranoid. (Because no townie can POSSIBLY be THAT sure - and then the WIFOM headache starts.) I can understand that. Sorry. Which is why I think it's just best if I don't play for awhile. When? At first? Your PM clearly read differently than mine. And I wasn't the only one suspicious of you. Everyone was once you claimed that name. The second? Again, everyone thought Jubal was bad. Last? Well, casting doubt on what I say when it was clear I was still myself when I first said it, that's odd. But as I said in game...how is that suspicious? I pointed out to you that I had first made claims of another Doc when I was put back into the game and being confirmed. So why would you find me suspicious based on not believing that alone? It was clear I was still me. So yeah, I did find you suspicious for that. Who wouldn't? Here we have someone trying to cast doubt on someone else when it was confirmed they were Town when they first said what someone number 1 is doubting.
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Post by Idle Thoughts on Nov 13, 2007 23:16:33 GMT -5
It's okay. I just I just feel low because everyone's always telling me how much I messed up (or so it seems) in every game and never any "way to go! I want Idle on my team next time!" Like I see with other people. Or "wow, that was clever" instead of "wow, what is Idle thinking? " Are you kidding? You were my idol in M5. But then it all turned sour and now I'm remembered as: The scum who was in the good but blew it/threw it all away with the mason claim. It's no longer "the scum who was the most wily and clever", it's "the scum who made a foolish play" as I've seen it pointed out more than a few times. I didn't even want to do that plan. I was against it. I even said that I wouldn't and refused. But then I figured I had already messed and screwed up enough in MIII and MIV and figured I'd go along with the rest of my team. To be united with them and support their idea since I seemed to be the only one that didn't like it/didn't think it would work. So I did it. So now even the "You were great scum" is taken away and marred a bit by the stupid mason claim.
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Post by RoOsh on Nov 13, 2007 23:17:44 GMT -5
Yeah. Dotchan, You just seem Scummy. It's the little things, until it gets to where every little detail is covered in WIFOM. Like when you post your little things at the bottom saying you're not scum. Or currently, this may or may not be a scum tell. I know cat did it too, but with you... I always feel like you're scum secretly laughing at the town. So it's best if you died, and i Know for SURE what your actions are. Because I tend to see them as "man... either she's being evasive for a reason, or she's just scum that's laughing her ass off at us townies. Only one thing to do there :Cocks shotgun: Time to get some answers" Yeah. I lynched you day 1 to find out whether or not you were scum, and if random names were included. there was no way I could trust your word, and my playing style, though pro-town, can come off ruthless- I will gladly lynch an innocent townie early on in the game if it means more information for me, and the less likely-hood of hitting a power role. So when you claimed no power role, that just kinda sealed the deal. You became information, AND a safe lynch. It's something i realized is different from others (such as Dnooman who takes lynches more seriously, and didn't like my shrugs, which is what i tend to do if we kill an innocent townie). It's why when I made my claim, i realized I believe in "lynch all Liars". So if I got caught, I'd GLADLY walk to the lynching station, so my goal was NOT to get caught. Basically I was hoping for (before I found out I was the cop), the scum to waste a nightkill on me trying to find it out. Because 1. If they killed me, then at least they didn't kill a power role. and 2. if they didn't kill me then I was pretty much an unkillable night role that wouldnt get recruited either. T'was nice later on. But the realization that I was the backup cop was a "holy shit!" moment for me, as I realized I could NOT just simply claim cop and have you all believe me. I needed proof. So i've learned from that a little bit. But yeah. Dotchan, I always feel like you're mocking the Town as an Evil Scummy person pretending to make mistakes. That's my personal bias against you. I'll try to control it.... But still.
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Post by CatInASuit on Nov 14, 2007 1:08:17 GMT -5
Idle Thoughts, I just read your plan for getting rid of scum that you were sure existed ie. me. I'm not sure what you were thinking, but that had a real possilbility of losing the game for the town. If you had done it and Cookies had not slipped up, I have no doubt that the scum would be cheering. Effectively you would have handed 4 townies (2 day lynches, me + you, and 2 night kills ) to the chopping block without the scum having to do much at all. If you ever feel the urge to do something like this again. Think real hard. Gee, I didn't wind up doing it, did I? Guess I would up "thinking real hard". But thanks for chastising me over it anyway even though I came to the right conclusion myself already and didn't wind up doing it. Idle Thoughts when I made the comment about you working out a way to take Wash. I was joking. Consider me slightly shocked that you would actually come up with a scheme to try and take out an unconfirmed role. I must have really convinced you I was scum somehow, even more than the other scum. I am very glad you did decide to think long and hard and not go through with it. As pointed out the consequences would have been painful. Don't consider it chastisement, that would have come if you had decided to try and pull it off. Consider it a friendly note, that nothing, and I do mean nothing, is for sure in Mafia unless Mod-confirmed. Out of curiousity, what convinced you beyond nearly all doubt I was a scum?
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Post by CatInASuit on Nov 14, 2007 1:17:26 GMT -5
Are you kidding? You were my idol in M5. But then it all turned sour and now I'm remembered as: The scum who was in the good but blew it/threw it all away with the mason claim. It's no longer "the scum who was the most wily and clever", it's "the scum who made a foolish play" as I've seen it pointed out more than a few times. I didn't even want to do that plan. I was against it. I even said that I wouldn't and refused. But then I figured I had already messed and humped up enough in MIII and MIV and figured I'd go along with the rest of my team. To be united with them and support their idea since I seemed to be the only one that didn't like it/didn't think it would work. So I did it. So now even the "You were great scum" is taken away and marred a bit by the stupid mason claim. Umm, Idle Thoughts, were you playing in the same game I was reading. You were the best of the scum and had the town on the verge of lynching a claimed and verified Monk. I don't see how that can be described as bad play. Cross posting in the game didn't help the scum much either, but I don't think you can be blamed for that. ;D ::eyes other well known scum with saintly grin::
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Post by sachertorte on Nov 14, 2007 10:01:58 GMT -5
And I still don't know what advantage there was to holding info back. I think things would have worked out a lot different had he just said "Look, Rysto is a Witch". I debated it. I really did. By mid-Day Day Three, I was convinced Idle Thoughts was Town and I really wanted him to talk with Rysto so we could get Witch information without revealing who the Witches were. I decided against publicly announcing that Rysto was a Witch because I wasn't sure Idle Thoughts trusted me enough to act on that information and more importantly I was terrified about letting scum know that Rysto was a Witch. The sucky part was I couldn't tell anyone that was my reason. I never thought Idle Thoughts was a bad player. In fact, I'd have to say that the teeny tiny bit of me that still didn't want to believe Idle was Town was due to the fact that Idle Thoughts was still alive. Part of my Day One "I'm not telling about recruitment" reasoning was I expected Idle Thoughts, Blaster Master, Kat, or MHaye to be bigger targets for scum. Looking back, I think I understand Idle Thoughts's frustration. His role was really cool and potentially very helpful to the Town. The problem was he needed information from me that I wasn't giving him. That would frustrate the F out of me too. Unfortunately, at the time it is difficult to distinguish genuine frustration from scummy intransigence.
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Post by Zeriel on Nov 14, 2007 11:04:17 GMT -5
As for Idle, I gotta say I've appreciated his play in both games I've been in so far--granted, in Sekham it was the kind of appreciation that was the result of me screaming at the monitor during Monkgate (you bastards, that almost ALMOST worked).
I think an earlier response was right--these games tend to bring out the suspicious, angry paranoid in all of us, so there's always going to be the chance of lost tempers and hurt feelings--I recall in Sekham as well I made several posts trying to get the tension ratcheted down to a reasonable level, with varying degrees of success.
Your little trick play with the backup doctor thing in Firefly was equally awesome once we knew about it--for a lot of reasons, that kind of thing will get more admiration than a good scumdar because we're so used to looking askance at people with good scumdar due to the perfect-information thing.
Either way, I do understand the frustration, especially when my own scumdar seems to get ignored. In a way, I have a similarly irritating-to-other-townies pattern to you--at least it seems like I'm generally up for a lynch for precious little reason other than pushing hard on people I suspect as scum.
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Post by Zeriel on Nov 14, 2007 11:12:57 GMT -5
As a totally random aside, it was your and NAF's play in Sekham that really, REALLY make me want to be a scum at some point. I saw through NAF but no one else did and he forced me into a claim, and you yourself were totally not on my scumdar until Monkgate happened and the screaming started.
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Post by Idle Thoughts on Nov 14, 2007 12:54:06 GMT -5
I am very glad you did decide to think long and hard and not go through with it. As pointed out the consequences would have been painful. Don't consider it chastisement, that would have come if you had decided to try and pull it off. Consider it a friendly note, that nothing, and I do mean nothing, is for sure in Mafia unless Mod-confirmed. Out of curiousity, what convinced you beyond nearly all doubt I was a scum? Sorry, then. Just felt backed into a corner a bit, I guess. : / Just the way you were acting. All the reasons I had said in that one post. Just seemed like you were the most shady. Yeah...*looks down* *looks up a bit again*...guess I did have them questioning themselves for a bit, huh? I feel a lot better now. Thanks for reminding me of that. I agree, sach..it is hard to tell the difference sometimes. Just for the record, I don't think you were bad or it was a mistake that you didn't say it....it was just your personal thing. It wasn't so much that I was frustrated. I actually just found you more suspicious for not saying, rather then knew you weren't and was frustrated for it. And by the time I started believing you really were the Coroner...there would have been no time for frustration because we were already getting scum coming out of the waxwork. ;D Another thing I saw mentioned in the diary topic on here in this game was people saying that "only scum would know I was lying" if I said I could see who attacked someone I was protecting, and thus, there would be no paranoia around them. However, I think this is even better...I even said so in that entry. That "the only people who would know I was lying was scum" because what can they do? Say "oh, I know you're lying. And how do I know this? Because I'm scum." I think this is an even better position to put them in. Where they know you're lying but since ONLY SCUM would know it was a lie, they can't say anything. It's like taunting them. And zeriel, thank you for your thoughts on it and feedback. I'm glad I could inspire you so but I'm sorry I gave your vocal chords a run for their money.
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Post by diggitcamara on Nov 14, 2007 14:00:59 GMT -5
(snip) And this topic just isn't helping..all this topic is doing is making me feel more and more like people are saying "well, you DO have problems in the game". Well that's great. Everyone has problems. I just wish people would start patting my back and saying "aww, there there Idle. You're good and great and smart" and a pity party? Yeah, that's what this is. Because I think sometimes people need just that when they don't feel like they've gotten it for awhile. Sorry, I got carried away. I'm a very analytical person and when I saw this topic I thought what you wanted was to receive outside perceptions of the way you play so you could get better. I kind of missed the point on that one, didn't I? For the record, I think you are at the very least a very entertaining player. I think you are a good player, usually one that stands out. And you have made more than your share of good to excellent moves during the games we have played together. Not the least of which was helping us find us this board, which definitely has raised the level of play. And, when you feel you made a bad play? Remember: all of us have had at least one boneheaded play. (I offed storyteller during one game, and confused my role to an incredible degree during the Conspiracy game). I'm usually against clichéed phrases but, in my experience this one is true: When you fall down from a horse, the best way to overcome that experience is to get on a horse again.
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Merestil Haye
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Post by Merestil Haye on Nov 14, 2007 14:05:27 GMT -5
I personally think you're quite a good player. I had to work in Sekham to find arguments against your false claim. It could have worked; if you'd had a couple of breaks go your way you might well have pulled it off.
I was horribly frustrated with your defence in Pirates because the whole point of the game is for scum to lie, and typing "I'm a good guy" in huge fonts does not make the claim inherently more credible. What does is corroborative evidence. Evidence which I knew where to look for but couldn't point out, being dead. And knowing how to find out the answer and having to watch everyone run around in circles was among the more frustrating experiences in Mafia games. (Not the most, don't worry. That was my biggest ever booboo.)
I'm not surprised that people accused you of scumhood because you called Drainbead exactly right after her claim. I've worked with people for whom very high accuracy rates in estimating costs of building maintenance projects meant an investigation for evidence of corruption would be launched - and heaven help you if you were found to have used the same contractor for all the estimates you got spot on. That would wind up in a criminal investigation.
Even though accuracy in estimating was one of the measures of job performance and poor estimating could, if you failed to improve, get you fired.
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