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Post by Renata on Oct 1, 2010 8:56:22 GMT -5
Yes, the bhok'arala brought it up somewhere. Mass redirect isn't a road worth following, since Eleanor clearly had an action taken on her. This post assumes that Eleanor's jailing was caused by a Night action. How could it be otherwise? She wasn't jailed at dusk, and she was at dawn. That's night, even the mule can see that.
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Post by peekercpa on Oct 1, 2010 9:23:08 GMT -5
And the 'nested quotes' bug strikes again. The question that is still unanswered was this one. George, Imagine: Scenario A: Stay Puft targeted Batman. Scenario B: Stay Puft targeted Dexter and was redirected to Batman. Would the results you've been given by the moderators be identical in these 2 Scenarios? I'm not sure how to make it any clearer. Please answer with a simple yes or no before going on to discuss the issue further. I also invite the other masons to answer. Care to take another swing at it? i would believe that to be the case, so yes. and i think it was ror that made a pretty compelling case on why to take out buddy. unvote[/color] vote buddy c.and puffy this ain't personal. i argued pretty hard about keeping you around on Day 1 despite the inherant danger involved in your role. i figured we would find something out about the scum team. well we got kind of lucky, if we are to believe you we now know that scum have a redirector, right? and you didn't even accomplish a redirected kill because of some mechanism. now a compulsive vig just firing wildly into the crowd can potentially be damaging to town but also potentially helpful as more information is developed. however, you have to admit that a compulsive vig that can be manipulated by scum has got to have a pretty short shelf life.
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Post by Suburban Plankton on Oct 1, 2010 9:52:34 GMT -5
And the 'nested quotes' bug strikes again. The question that is still unanswered was this one. Care to take another swing at it? i would believe that to be the case, so yes. and i think it was ror that made a pretty compelling case on why to take out buddy. unvote[/color] vote buddy c.and puffy this ain't personal. i argued pretty hard about keeping you around on Day 1 despite the inherant danger involved in your role. i figured we would find something out about the scum team. well we got kind of lucky, if we are to believe you we now know that scum have a redirector, right? and you didn't even accomplish a redirected kill because of some mechanism. now a compulsive vig just firing wildly into the crowd can potentially be damaging to town but also potentially helpful as more information is developed. however, you have to admit that a compulsive vig that can be manipulated by scum has got to have a pretty short shelf life. [/quote] I've only had one cup of coffee so far this morning, so I want to make sure my eyes aren't playing tricks on em...you did just admit that it is perfectly plausible that the information you received from Mister Blockey saying that I targeted Batman was the product of a redirect, and did not in fact reflect my original intent? And please, please stop 'reassuring' me that there's 'nothing personal' going on. I'm not a child. I understand how this game is played. If I thought you were making a personal attack, or if I was hurt or offended by something you did, I would say something. Or I'd track you down by your your IP address and stick a horse's head in bed with you. And if I might make a request, of the Masons, or anyone else who has been keeping good records... Could someone post a list of all the people who have claimed they were, or were not, in the Batcave last night, and whether or not the Masons agree with their stories? Maybe if we have a 'complete' picture we might be able to build a reasonable hypotheses out of it as to what really happened last Night.
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Post by special on Oct 1, 2010 9:54:48 GMT -5
This post assumes that Eleanor's jailing was caused by a Night action. How could it be otherwise? She wasn't jailed at dusk, and she was at dawn. That's night, even the mule can see that. I wasn't aware that mules had keen eyesight. Just because you cannot see the Sun at Night doesn't mean it isn't there. Ways in which it could be otherwise: 1. It is the result of a mod-enforced punishment for some infraction. 2. It is a potential side effect of her using her power regardless of where it was directed. 3. It is a delayed reaction to a Day 2 power. 4. It is a continued reaction to a Day 2 power that may have included a Night 1 block. 5. It was caused by a player who was freed to act by an action similar to that suggested by Homicidal Maniac. (Technically, this is still a Night Action, but it gets at the core of the assumption that there could not have been a mass redirect.) 6. It was caused by an un-directable night Power (Again, like 5, it is stilla Night Action, but does not negate the possibility of a Mass redirect.) 7. It was an immediately resolved Day 3 power. 8. It is some other game mechanic which doesn't rely on a Night action. 9. It is a result of having voted for the 3rd party power stealer on Day 2.
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Post by Suburban Plankton on Oct 1, 2010 9:58:58 GMT -5
This post assumes that Eleanor's jailing was caused by a Night action. How could it be otherwise? She wasn't jailed at dusk, and she was at dawn. That's night, even the mule can see that.<bolding mine> This statement is true, but we don't know that she was jailed immediately after Dusk. It could be that her imprisonment runs Dawn to Dusk, so that she was free to act last Night. It was also suggested early on Today that her imprisonment could be 'self imposed', as a consequence for a mass-protection action last Night. And of course, she might not actually be a Doc...I'm not exactly sure what implications that would have, given what we currently think we know. Hopefully, we will find out Tomorrow.
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Post by peekercpa on Oct 1, 2010 9:59:21 GMT -5
ror was there and he agrees homicidal was there and he agrees puffy was there and he disagrees gir was there and she disagrees galadriel was there and she disagrees zed says he was there and the masons disagree. batty had to have wandered in at some point the masons 1, 2 or 3 of us were there
everyone else as near as i can tell, to the extent that they have responded, has said that they weren't there and the masons agree.
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Post by peekercpa on Oct 1, 2010 10:03:37 GMT -5
i guess the problem i have with a mass redirect is that if columbo is to be believed then he would have been at the party as well, right?
i think i already made this point previously.
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Post by Suburban Plankton on Oct 1, 2010 10:25:33 GMT -5
I notice you didn't actually answer myquestion...again! But since you didn't tell me my interpretation was wrong, and you did post the list I asked for, so I'll take your silence as implied consent. And in the spirit of Township unvote Curious George vote Buddy ChristKum ba yah, my Lord...c'mon everybody sing! Now off to see if I can make any sense out of last Night.
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Post by special on Oct 1, 2010 10:26:36 GMT -5
i guess the problem i have with a mass redirect is that if columbo is to be believed then he would have been at the party as well, right? i think i already made this point previously. Of course, if Columbo is not trusted, then it still makes sense.
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Post by Renata on Oct 1, 2010 10:29:52 GMT -5
<font style="font-size: 12px;">i guess the problem i have with a mass redirect is that if columbo is to be believed then he would have been at the party as well, right? i think i already made this point previously. That too, although technically we can't be sure he actually did anything, unless Death of Rats is inclined to 'fess up to being preventing from taking an intended action. If there are any other players in the game who took actions last night and didn't wind up at Batman's house, that would be further evidence. Evidence, heehee. I'll keep using words like that, they'll be sure to think I know what I'm talking about! <font style="font-size: 12px;"> <font style="font-size: 12px;">
This post assumes that Eleanor's jailing was caused by a Night action.
How could it be otherwise? She wasn't jailed at dusk, and she was at dawn. That's night, even the mule can see that.I wasn't aware that mules had keen eyesight. Just because you cannot see the Sun at Night doesn't mean it isn't there. Ways in which it could be otherwise: 1. It is the result of a mod-enforced punishment for some infraction. 2. It is a potential side effect of her using her power regardless of where it was directed. 3. It is a delayed reaction to a Day 2 power. 4. It is a continued reaction to a Day 2 power that may have included a Night 1 block. 5. It was caused by a player who was freed to act by an action similar to that suggested by Homicidal Maniac. (Technically, this is still a Night Action, but it gets at the core of the assumption that there could not have been a mass redirect.) 6. It was caused by an un-directable night Power (Again, like 5, it is stilla Night Action, but does not negate the possibility of a Mass redirect.) 7. It was an immediately resolved Day 3 power. 8. It is some other game mechanic which doesn't rely on a Night action. 9. It is a result of having voted for the 3rd party power stealer on Day 2. I'll grant you some of those. However, mules can't see well, that's the whole point! Poor things can only see sideways.
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Post by special on Oct 1, 2010 10:32:34 GMT -5
So, Masons, go through your list of people whose stories don't match up with you results.
Please indicate the perentage odds that you feel they are lying.
Are you still of the opinon that Zedd is 100% Scum as stated in reply 73
OK, in re-reading, it, you were only fairly convinced that he was 100% Scum. I'm not sure what that actually means, maybe you're 80% convinced he's 100& Scum, 10% convinced he's mostly Scum, 5% convinced he's minimally Scum, and 5% convinced he's 0% Scum.
Of course, I'm not actually expecting you to answer this question. I'm fairly convinved you'll answer 100% of a question I didn't ask. Of course, maybe you'll actually be redirected to another question.
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Post by special on Oct 1, 2010 10:33:59 GMT -5
I'll grant you some of those. However, mules can't see well, that's the whole point! Poor things can only see sideways. Then this game must seem rightside up to you! Here, help me plow the field so we can plant potatoes.
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Post by Renata on Oct 1, 2010 10:52:01 GMT -5
No, the game is upside down, definitely. I eagerly await what is next to fall out of the sky onto us like capemoth droppings. Or should it be out of the ground onto us like bhok'aral poop? Well, either way.
I don't eat potatoes.
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Post by special on Oct 1, 2010 10:56:33 GMT -5
No, the game is upside down, definitely. I eagerly await what is next to fall out of the sky onto us like capemoth droppings. Or should it be out of the ground onto us like bhok'aral poop? Well, either way. I don't eat potatoes. This post assumes that a mule that doesn't eat potatoes cannot plow a field. Ah, yes, double sideways could be upside down as well as rightside up. Three-dimensionally, it could also be ass upwards, I suppose.
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Post by peekercpa on Oct 1, 2010 11:04:39 GMT -5
So, Masons, go through your list of people whose stories don't match up with you results. Please indicate the perentage odds that you feel they are lying. Are you still of the opinon that Zedd is 100% Scum as stated in reply 73 OK, in re-reading, it, you were only fairly convinced that he was 100% Scum. I'm not sure what that actually means, maybe you're 80% convinced he's 100& Scum, 10% convinced he's mostly Scum, 5% convinced he's minimally Scum, and 5% convinced he's 0% Scum. Of course, I'm not actually expecting you to answer this question. I'm fairly convinved you'll answer 100% of a question I didn't ask. Of course, maybe you'll actually be redirected to another question. well there were 24 players going into last Night. with four false reads. that would mean that the success rate was 83.33 percent. now if we assume that puffy was in fact redirected then the success rate would increase to 87.50 percent. now if someone is lying then the success rate increases to 91.67 percent. consider a town investigator. if there is a miller and a gf in the game (and who frankly knows) then their success rate would be the same 91.67 percent. and regarding zed. could he have a power that is unwatchable? sure i guess. i mean i've seen chia bingo masters in my career as well. it's just that those types of unicorns are pretty unusual and i don't buy it at this point.
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Post by peekercpa on Oct 1, 2010 11:11:49 GMT -5
oh, and in the absence of concrete evidence to the contrary i would think they are all lying. however, of the four i would consider puffy on the bottom of the list because him being there makes sense if scum have a redirector.
and i would put zed on the top of the list because the cloud nonsense makes no sense to me.
the other two are dead in the middle. although i would be inclined to put gir higher than galadriel based on her response or whatever it was. seriously, cheese. i am not much into dairy, being a simian and all that, dontchaknow.
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Total Ullz
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Post by Total Ullz on Oct 1, 2010 11:46:01 GMT -5
I'm still trying to come up with an explanation to how I ended up spending the Night with BatMc.
Like peeker I don't see if Scum has a re-director they'd use it on me. Why? No motivation - as far as I can see.
Same goes for a Town redirector. And as far as I can see for a non-Town+non-Scum-aligned redirector.
No sense at all.
Also I have to say - my alignment put aside - why would I lie about this? The Masons came out and asked for people present in the Bat cave to step forward. As I recall I was the first to do so - saying I'd rather all said "yeah" or "nay" and then I said "nay".
Could that be a gamble on my side? Sure, everything in mafia could be.
But looking at the odds - why would I do that? It's pretty plain for all to see that I didn't spend last Night alone in my own bed. I don't mind telling who's bed I tried to crawl into - if the information can provide us with more clues. However at this point I'm not sure if it can...
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Post by Suburban Plankton on Oct 1, 2010 11:56:27 GMT -5
Sorry monkey boy, but you really gave yourself away that time. Not into cheese? Definite scum tell. Cheese is one of God's greatest gifts to mankind! Even a marshmallow man knows that!
As far as the actual strategery goes...
The only thing I'm reasonably certain of is that there was no Mass Redirect. There are too many pieces that just don't fit. So that implies that there were three different redirects, or Gir, Galadriel and I all targeted Dexter, or at least one of the three of us is lying.
Although the first option there is certainly possible given the apparent non-vanilla nature of this game, I still find it highly unlikely to have occurred in the manner that would have been necessary to explain last Night. And I would think that if either Galadriel or Gir had targeted Dexter, they would have said so by now, because that would support the theory that there was in fact a redirection off of Dexter and onto Batman. Since neither has come forth with such a claim, we're back to one or more of us is lying.
The problem I have with that is, as I have said before, that I can't see why Scum would have lied about whether or not they visited Batman. If either Galadriel or Gir were scum and had targeted Batman with any power, then they would have truthfully answered the Masons' question that they were in fact there. There would be no danger of exposure in doing so, because there are obviously a large number of powers in this game, a number of which seem to be rather on the esoteric side. Scum does not want to 'stand out', and knowingly lying about last Night's actions is a sure-fire way to stand out of the crowd.
So now it's back to me. I maintain, as I always have, that I targeted Dexter last night. Since I was observed visiting Batman, I can only assume I was redirected. Which puts us right back to square one.
I feel like I've been dunked into a giant cup of hot chocolate, and Blockey and friends are just stirring, stirring, stirring away...
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Post by Sister Coyote on Oct 1, 2010 12:01:45 GMT -5
Given the number of folk who were reportedly present in the batcave, this would seem that this is the most logical explanation - except - if it were a mass redirect, I would have investigated myself - unless my investigations are intrinsically unblockable - or the mass redirect did not apply to investigations. SQUEEK! (Read Homicidal Maniac's post again -- his device made sure your action went through and was correctly targeted. So it's not something intrinsic to your investigation but a result of HM's action. Unless. of course, one or both of you is lying.) That too, although technically we can't be sure he actually did anything, unless Death of Rats is inclined to 'fess up to being preventing from taking an intended action. SQUEEK (I took no action last Night.) I don't mind telling who's bed I tried to crawl into - if the information can provide us with more clues. However at this point I'm not sure if it can... SQUEEK! (I think if it was Dexter's bed you tried to crawl into, that would tell us something. Otherwise, I'm inclined to agree that it won't tell us much.)
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Post by Total Ullz on Oct 1, 2010 12:05:46 GMT -5
SQUEEK! (I think if it was Dexter's bed you tried to crawl into, that would tell us something. Otherwise, I'm inclined to agree that it won't tell us much.) This is the second time we agree in this game. It's starting to freak me out a bit
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Post by Suburban Plankton on Oct 1, 2010 12:05:47 GMT -5
I don't mind telling who's bed I tried to crawl into - if the information can provide us with more clues. However at this point I'm not sure if it can... I don't see how it can hurt.... I guess that if you lie about it, that could further confuse the issue, but I think that we're so thoroughly confused already that there's not much chance of actually making it worse... Can anyone think of a plausible explanation why the Masons would have seen one of us 'visit' Batman, when in fact we did not intend to, that does not involve redirection? Meeko suggested an 'impersonator'. Could there perhaps some sort of 'trick with mirrors' ability that makes an action seem to have targeted one person (Batman), when it actually targeted someone else (Dexter)? Of course, if that were true then we need to explain why Dexter is still alive...and even if there is another explanation, we still need to multiply it by three...
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Post by Drain Bead on Oct 1, 2010 12:09:32 GMT -5
Can this Day end already so I can get spoilers?
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Post by Natlaw on Oct 1, 2010 12:14:31 GMT -5
@Lt Columbo Does the power description in anyway indicate it can not be redirected or that you just look at the clouds and lightning strikes your target to block it? Did you actually got a message you blocked Death of Rats or is it possible you just blocked Batman without knowing it?
That leaves only the jail power known to be not redirected (it could be immune or a perhaps passive power triggered by Eleanor herself if attacked). Because if there was a mass redirect to Batman then the likelyhood that the visitors are scum with active powers is much more likely (the killer for one). So if it was town who did redirect it might be worth to claim depending on Lt Columbo's answer.
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Post by Total Ullz on Oct 1, 2010 12:15:08 GMT -5
Can this Day end already so I can get spoilers? HA! You forgot to sign this
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Post by Sister Coyote on Oct 1, 2010 12:16:58 GMT -5
That leaves only the jail power known to be not redirected SQUEEK! (Batman's investigation of Buddy went through without redirection. HM's boosting of Batman's power was not (apparently) redirected, therefore, it is unlikely we had a mass redirect last night.)
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Natlaw
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Post by Natlaw on Oct 1, 2010 12:19:17 GMT -5
Never mind the second question to Columbo as he wasn't seen by the masons so he wasn't there unless he let the clouds block for him (or lies of course but why would scum claim role blocker and then not block to prove it?).
@buddy: won't you be back in three days anyway?
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Post by Natlaw on Oct 1, 2010 12:21:41 GMT -5
SQUEEK! (Batman's investigation of Buddy went through without redirection. HM's boosting of Batman's power was not (apparently) redirected, therefore, it is unlikely we had a mass redirect last night.) No, if there was a mass redirect Maniac would have been redirected to Batman as well regardless who he targeted (which could have been a scum buddy killer for all we know).
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Post by Suburban Plankton on Oct 1, 2010 12:22:56 GMT -5
You know, it would kinda be fitting for Buddy to be a Scotsman...
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Post by Dirx on Oct 1, 2010 12:30:20 GMT -5
There's nothing in my role PM, colour or otherwise, that suggests my action is unblockable, unredirectable, not specifically targetted. In fact, the colour suggests the exact opposite, using wording along the lines of "heading off the target to prevent their action." I would assume I am just as susceptible to interference as other normal powers.
I also received no confirmation that my block was successful, nor confirmation that it was indeed Death of Rats that I ended up blocking. But that doesn't surprise me, since, if I were a moderator, I wouldn't have said anything either.
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Post by Renata on Oct 1, 2010 12:41:47 GMT -5
That one's easy, Marshmallow Man. Allow me to explain. I won't lead you astray, much.
Odds are decent that sooner or later everyone who was seen at Batman's party will be called on to account for their actions. If any of them is mafia and thinks they can make a plausible claim out of a visit to Batman last night, then of course they'll admit to having been there. If on the other hand, they don't have such a good claim, then it could be that their best option is to suggest redirection and hope the whole thing winds up to too confusing to unravel.
Rather like what I just said, heehee.
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