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Post by Dirx on Sept 27, 2010 22:20:48 GMT -5
Good grief you're all talkative during the day. Don't any of you have jobs? Vote: Buddy Christ I think it was Nordom that asked why I didn't block the claimed compulsive vig. It's a bit of 'splainin', but here goes: As can probably be guessed from posts I made Day 2 (and maybe Day 1?), I don't see vigs--compulsive or otherwise--as being too dangerous. Yes, the possibility for hitting town is sizeable, especially in the early Days, but every kill is useful information. As I mentioned on Day 2, I was hoping to see what dead bodies turned up that Morning, and who claimed responsibility for them. It would have been information Stay Puft had to account for, and, potentially, the first knot in his noose (or the first bar of chocolate on the graham cracker) if the kill seemed fishy for any reason. I continued this reasoning into Night 3, wanting to see what happened and who claimed responsibility for what. So that's why I specifically did not block Stay Puft. I also wanted to see what happened if I blocked an unclaimed player. Truth be told, I'm pretty terrible when I try to play the game based on who's acting suspicious. I'll pick a player, ask "What if they're scum? Let's look at their actions in that light." And then I get a metric assload of confirmation bias. But I am good at logic puzzles. Questioning motivation gets me nowhere fast, but piecing together what happened and what didn't, and if this is true then that should follow, and if not why not, etc... that's stuff I really enjoy, and have a pretty good handle on. So, by blocking a mostly-randomly-picked non-claimed player, and seeing what happens, I get another puzzle piece. At the moment, the piece I got last Night fits too many other pieces, but later on, it may prove to be important. It's kinda rambling, and it's come to my attention that I suck at explaining myself, apparently, but that's my reasoning for my choice of who to block last Night. Ok, now to read over this again now that I'm no longer trying to stuff my face with wantons. A few things have stuck out at me, but I can't immediately recall specifics.
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Post by Suburban Plankton on Sept 27, 2010 22:21:17 GMT -5
Waitwaitwait! I'm having a vision!!!!!! Watcher who can PM their results through the mod for a thousand dollars, Alex! bzzzzzztttttt. nope. How can you be so absolutely sure that somebody else does not have a certain power?
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Post by peekercpa on Sept 27, 2010 22:21:20 GMT -5
: looks to the monkey : Have we ever been masons together? Conspiracy or some such? Just give us a two person off board thread, and a power that no one would believe. By the time we are done, the two of us would have made good progress on the double EE dictionarEE. Yes. Dictionaree. Two e's you sEE find me the man with the yellow hat. get me a fruit smoothie and get ed's foot off of my side of the crypt and then we can talk.
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Post by special on Sept 27, 2010 22:21:54 GMT -5
::: looks at everyone taking issue with him ::: As I understood it, Zed was called a Liar based on his results. Three people, the Masons, [correct?] are saying he is a liar. Zed and Batman both point to Buddy being Scum. Does this then not mean that 2 are on one side of Buddy being Scum, and 3 are on the other? Why else would they all stick their neck out that far? --- Then again, it is all moot with the Claim. A Jester Jesus would be interesting. OK, first off, you said george, Corinth, and Raj said Buddy wasn't Scum. I'm not a mason, I'm a Vig, and we're all voting for Buddy. Batman said Buddy was Scum. The masons (george and corinth, not me) said Zedd and Stay lied. All Zed has said is that Batman is no threat to Town.
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Post by special on Sept 27, 2010 22:22:41 GMT -5
If he was blocked, wouldn't he have not visited Batman? Not necessarily. He could have been "seen" when he made the attempt. The attempt would fail if blocked. (I don't know what mechanism is set up for this game, but it's worked this way in others I've played so I can't discount the possibility.) Unlikely. Most blocks prevent visits. Protections work as you describe. But the masons have answered, and I am satisfied with their answer
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Meeko
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Post by Meeko on Sept 27, 2010 22:22:49 GMT -5
::: shakes his head no :::
It obviously couldn't have been Conspiracy for the masons. were we both wolves in that one?
Well at least that was an off board thread for the two of us. And Ed. Perhaps it wasn't so bad that Ed left on night 1 after all.
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Sept 27, 2010 22:25:42 GMT -5
I think my post is quite clear. I am primarily skeptical of the information, and secondarily skeptical of the masonry. Do you not agree that it is quite a powerful combination of Town powers? Powerful is a relative statement. Powerful compared to what? That's the rub isn't it? Personally, I still have no idea what a power-stealer is, or what mechanics were involved in the role to have any sense as to the degree of power that lurked under our dead PFK's mask. Maybe it was significant. Maybe it was wimpy. I know nothing of the apparent scum powers that hasn't been provided by an unconfirmed player ( Batman, who I'm inclined to believe, but still unconfirmed. What I do know is giving the town a masonry that knows who each other are, has an off-board place to communicate, and then throwing them even more perfect information through some Town mechanism is powerful. It exponentially increases the game-impact payload of both the Masons and whatever Town role is communicating with them. I would expect some significant powers to balance that, including a possible Scum/PFK role delivering the intel disguised as a helpful care package. Since I don't have much insight into what is on the other end(s) of the balancing equations, skepticism seems prudent.
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Post by special on Sept 27, 2010 22:28:09 GMT -5
::: shakes his head no ::: It obviously couldn't have been Conspiracy for the masons. were we both wolves in that one? Well at least that was an off board thread for the two of us. And Ed. Perhaps it wasn't so bad that Ed left on night 1 after all. As did you. I think the wolves in that game were you, me, bufftabby, cookies, and paul.
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Post by Suburban Plankton on Sept 27, 2010 22:36:24 GMT -5
I do have another question, though. One that I've asked several times but have yet to receive a response to.
Masons, all you've said so far about this information is "One of the masons got pm'd this morning that someone had left conclusive evidence on the ground of who exactly visited Batman last night. Zedd's not on that list but Stay Puft is." But what exactly does that mean? How was this information presented? I'm not asking you to quote the PM, but did it say something like this?:
Or was it more like this?:
If what actually happened is closer to the former, then I have no defense because the game is rigged.
If it is more like the latter, I'd urge you to reconsider whether or not the information is fully trustworthy. Remember, just because the Mods handed you a piece of information does not necessarily imply that they were the original source of the information.
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Post by Suburban Plankton on Sept 27, 2010 22:42:36 GMT -5
This isn't really a matter of self-preservation for me, as I assumed I'd get lynched sooner or later. As soon as the Town can't come up with a more inviting target, I was going to have to be killed just to make sure I'm not a SK.
And it's not really about being falsely accused. Sure, I hate it as much as the next guy when somebody accuses me of something I didn't do, but that's par for the course here. I wouldn't last two minutes if I let that get under my skin.
No, the thing that's bothering me here is that the Masons are leading the Town astray. They may not be doing it on purpose, but they are still leading the way. According to the case that is being presented, both Zedd and I are lying, and therefore Scum (or SK in my case). If I get lynched tonight for it, that's one mislynch. Tomorrow, Zedd gets lynched (because even when I turn up Town, I still might have targeted Batman, and we are both still presumed liars). That's a second mislynch. When he turns up Town, then people turn on the Masons for misleading them, and there's a third mislynch at least.
And before you ask, yes I'm assuming Zedd is Town. The 'evidence' given ties the two of us together, and I can't see Scum attaching one of their own to me, only to hope that I'm lynched first and that he then gains Town cred from my lynch. I also believe the Masons are on the level. I don't think they are trying to play us; I just think they have been given information that is not reliable.
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timmy
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Post by timmy on Sept 27, 2010 22:45:54 GMT -5
Question: How many votes must a player absorb before they can be lynched prior to toDay's deadline? Answer: Don't know. But here's one more to step it up.
vote Buddy Christ
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Post by Inner Stickler on Sept 27, 2010 23:20:48 GMT -5
The masons are not leading town anywhere right now. Drain Bead has confessed to being scum. What the masons have said is very interesting. However, I have no intentions of making any votes based on it until Tomorrow. If we're lucky one of the masons will be dead. But frankly this game has been odd enough that as far as I'm concerned, you're not confirmed until you're swinging and I've seen your death reveal.
If the info peek and skeez have is correct, that's great, but I'll be over in the corner with Cookies, wondering what the hell scum have to balance this.
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Post by Dirx on Sept 27, 2010 23:53:40 GMT -5
All right, it looks like we're making some progress. Somehow, I have a hard time believing that the Mods just forgot to send results back to our investigators before Dawn. The fact that the PMs were late I think means somethings...but I don't know what yet. Did you miss the part where Batman said the investigation PMs were dependent on Mister Blockey being online? Seems simple enough, and believable. [updating as I continue reading] Nevermind, I see Gir already pointed that out, back in post#81. So you are saying you think Stay Puft tried to kill a claimed cop last night? And that Zedd who claims to have investigated Batman did not? OK, well this is getting interesting. Should we still believe Batman's claim that he investigated Buddy Christ and got scum? I'm more inclined to put my faith in masons than an unconfirmed claim. Why would this cause you to question Batman's information? I can understand questioning it a little already, because he's not yet confirmed, and I can understand wanting to lynch the masons' target before the target of a less-confirmed player, but I don't see how this new information sheds any new doubt on Batman's claim. I do have another question, though. One that I've asked several times but have yet to receive a response to. You know what else has been asked several times, but has not yet been responded to? Who you targetted last Night. So, not as much as I thought stuck out at me. On my first read through--which was kinda quick--Elizabeth's and Dexter's reasonings for not currently voting for Buddy Christ seemed off. Now that I've read more carefully, I can understand their reasonings. But let's look at our lynching options: We basically have three potential targets right now. Buddy Christ (per Batman's claimed investigation), and Stay Puft and Zedd (per the masons' claimed information). Buddy Christ claims to be a scum corruptor, which matches Batman's information. His posts seems to imply that the target of his power is not necessarily a miller temporarily. And, being that he claimed his power was a one-shot, I would fully expect a one-shot power to be more powerful than turning a player into a miller for only a Night or 2. To Lynch, or Not to Lynch? PRO: Apparently investigated as scum. CLAIMED scum. While I won't discout the possibility, I can't for the life of me imagine why any non-scum player would claim scum when they know they're already facing a certain lynch. No town player would do it, that's for sure. This is pretty much guaranteed not to be a mislynch. CON: He claims to have used his power up. IF he's telling the truth, then he potentially doesn't pose as strong a threat to us anymore. PRO: He's a scummy scum, and therefore likely a lying scum. And if he's lying, investigator results will continue to get fucked with, whether the miller-ization is temporary or not. That's not kosher. Or, even worse, he's even lying about millers, and corrupts via recruitment. Leaving him alive in this case is even worse. BATMAN: When you posted the info about what a corruptor is, did you get it from a wiki, or do you know that's exactly what Buddy Christ is? Stay Puft is another possibility, as the masons claim to have evidence that he tried to kill Batman last Night. I don't feel this is mecessarily as damning as the evidence against Zedd, though. It's entirely possible for a scum to have a redirector. And if they have the kind that I hoped they didn't (I'll go find my Day 1 post about redirectors after this, for anyone interested), then they could have tried manipulating Stay Puft to kill the/a claimed cop. PRO: If Puffy really did intentionally target Batman last Night, he has no excuse. He's definitely playing against town, and is either scum or a serial killer. He needs to be put down. CON: But that's still a somewhat weighty "if", as explained above. And besides, we may be able to keep him from killing Tonight with a roleblocker (*ahem*). Though scum might try interfering with this by messing with me. There are a lot of variables to consider here, so I'm still thinking it over. Zedd doesn't seem to have much of an excuse for what the masons apparently found out. A redirector doesn't seem to work, as he claimed Batman was specifically mentioned in his result PM. So why isn't he on the Party At The Batcave guest list? The only thing I can think of right now is that, when he originally claimed his power, he said he "reads the clouds" or some such mystical hippy crap to get his information. So, it's possible he was able to investigate Batman without physically visiting him. But, that's a kindof a copout. I mean, when I deal with a watcher or tracker, I count any instance of targetting as "visting", regardless of the colour attached to the action. PRO: There's pretty decent evidence that he's lying. Lynch all liars, dontchaknow. And who knows what kind of scum he is? Someone (Corinthian?) suggested Godfather, which would make sense given Zedd's request to be investigated. CON: Well, if he's a godfather, then his power is kinda pointless right now anyway, since he's more or less likely been outed already. So leaving him alive for another Night may not be disastrous. PRO: Then again, he could have a different power entirely, and a much more dangerous one, at that. Leaving him alive may give him the time he needs to do something particularly nasty. Personally, I think going with the bird in the hand (Buddy Christ) is our best shot. It's practically guaranteed, and whatever happens Tonight will hopefully give us more information to evaluate the other two targets. Fuck I think I spent an hour on this. Probably more. Hope this is helpful to someone in some way.
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Post by BillMc on Sept 28, 2010 2:59:54 GMT -5
BATMAN: When you posted the info about what a corruptor is, did you get it from a wiki, or do you know that's exactly what Buddy Christ is? from my investigation
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Total Ullz
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Post by Total Ullz on Sept 28, 2010 5:13:58 GMT -5
Oh, my. That's unexpected.
So we have a scum claiming scum. We have masons with new information. I'm very confused ATM - but not on the outcome of the Day.
Of course we need to lynch the scum investigated by the Cop. And the unvotes based on the mason-information surprises me. Especially since we have a vig (Dr. Raj) willing to kill one of Stay Puff or Zedd toNight.
By toMorrow we will know more and hopefully the masons will receive more informations for us to look at.
I do however think it might be a good idea for the roleblocker to block Stay Puff toNight. Just to be on the safe side. I understand playing with gut to get a puzzle and all. But someone with a NK that seems to have lied or mislead us in some way might not be the best thing to have running around at Night. Just my opinion.
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Post by Mahaloth on Sept 28, 2010 6:46:02 GMT -5
Zedd doesn't seem to have much of an excuse for what the masons apparently found out. A redirector doesn't seem to work, as he claimed Batman was specifically mentioned in his result PM. So why isn't he on the Party At The Batcave guest list? The only thing I can think of right now is that, when he originally claimed his power, he said he "reads the clouds" or some such mystical hippy crap to get his information. So, it's possible he was able to investigate Batman without physically visiting him. But, that's a kindof a copout. I mean, when I deal with a watcher or tracker, I count any instance of targetting as "visting", regardless of the colour attached to the action. Indeed, it says that I can read the clouds and that doing so is somewhat useful. I still don't get how in a regular game of mafia using my power would not count as visiting. I was not told that my power is in anyway "invisible" or anything, either. I hope the mods didn't just forget to include me on any list of people that targeted Batman. If so, I hope they fix the error. I am suspecting some kind of "trick" is being played on all of us. Still, I welcome trick and accept it as a "treat". Looks like I'm getting lynched toMorrow if I survive the Night.
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Post by BillMc on Sept 28, 2010 6:52:05 GMT -5
Having had the chance to catch up, seems I was rather popular last night - not surprising. Thanks to whoever had my back.
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Post by BillMc on Sept 28, 2010 6:58:35 GMT -5
So if Puft is telling the truth - there is a redirector out there who doesn't like me.
As for Zedd - he may be telling the truth, he may be lying. It really depends on whether asking a question of the mod on whether someone is a threat constitutes visiting a player.
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Post by Mahaloth on Sept 28, 2010 7:19:15 GMT -5
As for Zedd - he may be telling the truth, he may be lying. It really depends on whether asking a question of the mod on whether someone is a threat constitutes visiting a player. All I can hope for is that we have some kind of "truth detector" that can examine my claims and validate them. Otherwise, I'm screwed. I assume there is a reason that my visit did not get detected, but I have no idea what it could be.
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Total Ullz
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Post by Total Ullz on Sept 28, 2010 7:23:53 GMT -5
I'm having a hard time understanding the deal with Zedd. Mostly because of the way he claimed yesterDay: idlemafia.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=halloween&thread=1487&page=12#68777From my point of view I'm thinking that it seems rather ballsy for Scum to counterclaim like that. As I recall he wasn't himself under that much pressure. So why would he claim like this if he's Scum. Best case-scenario (pretending he's false claiming BillMc): We lynch BillMc that then flips Town. Next Day we lynch Zedd. A 1:1 seems silly - even if the one is our Investigator and Zedd powerless Scum. In JS-point that would be a 4 to 4.5 So I guess while unlikely it's not impossible. But then he comes back toDay and tells us BillMc is to be trusted. And once more I really fail to see the Scum-motivation behind this as well. Maybe I'm missing something.
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Total Ullz
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Post by Total Ullz on Sept 28, 2010 7:24:48 GMT -5
Good grief you're all talkative during the day. Don't any of you have jobs? Actually I don't. So if you're hiring - please let me know
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Post by Mahaloth on Sept 28, 2010 7:41:21 GMT -5
But then he comes back toDay and tells us BillMc is to be trusted. And once more I really fail to see the Scum-motivation behind this as well. Maybe I'm missing something. You aren't. I am as lost as everyone else as why people can confirm other targeting, but not mine. If I had been scum, I would not have counter-claimed, but rather quietyl used my power to help scum decide who to kill. I would obviously not have the "threat to town" option(it'd be minimally useful), but if I could learn powers, I could guide scum toward killing power roles. I would have never told everyone in the game I had the power. I only counterclaimed because I didn't believe both I and Batman can be Town investigators....which appears to be the case. Something is odd about this game....and it isn't just the costumes.
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Post by Drain Bead on Sept 28, 2010 7:46:26 GMT -5
As your friendly neighborhood Scum, I'm guessing we have two Scum teams, but that doesn't explain the second no-kill Night very well.
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Post by Drain Bead on Sept 28, 2010 7:47:20 GMT -5
Oh, also.
Vote: Puffy
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Post by Mahaloth on Sept 28, 2010 7:48:26 GMT -5
As your friendly neighborhood Scum, I'm guessing we have two Scum teams, but that doesn't explain the second no-kill Night very well. So, do you like being scum or dislike it?
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timmy
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Post by timmy on Sept 28, 2010 8:01:17 GMT -5
As your friendly neighborhood Scum, I'm guessing we have two Scum teams, but that doesn't explain the second no-kill Night very well. Are you trying to be helpful? Or just messing with Town's investigations? Ehhh.
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Post by peekercpa on Sept 28, 2010 8:19:30 GMT -5
Powerful is a relative statement. Powerful compared to what? That's the rub isn't it? Personally, I still have no idea what a power-stealer is, or what mechanics were involved in the role to have any sense as to the degree of power that lurked under our dead PFK's mask. Maybe it was significant. Maybe it was wimpy. I know nothing of the apparent scum powers that hasn't been provided by an unconfirmed player ( Batman, who I'm inclined to believe, but still unconfirmed. What I do know is giving the town a masonry that knows who each other are, has an off-board place to communicate, and then throwing them even more perfect information through some Town mechanism is powerful. It exponentially increases the game-impact payload of both the Masons and whatever Town role is communicating with them. I would expect some significant powers to balance that, including a possible Scum/PFK role delivering the intel disguised as a helpful care package. Since I don't have much insight into what is on the other end(s) of the balancing equations, skepticism seems prudent. and i hear what you are saying, honestly. but to give someone in a group a power and then let the information provided by that power be provided by someone on an opposing team (or anyone else, for that matter) is definitely gastardly. think about it cookies. if you were given the role of detective by the mod. you get a pm from the mod that says your investigation was xxxx but that was composed by a player on another team would that not be the definition of gastardly. matter of fact, i don't think that would be a fun game at all.
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Post by peekercpa on Sept 28, 2010 8:26:27 GMT -5
The masons are not leading town anywhere right now. Drain Bead has confessed to being scum. What the masons have said is very interesting. However, I have no intentions of making any votes based on it until Tomorrow. If we're lucky one of the masons will be dead. But frankly this game has been odd enough that as far as I'm concerned, you're not confirmed until you're swinging and I've seen your death reveal. If the info peek and skeez have is correct, that's great, but I'll be over in the corner with Cookies, wondering what the hell scum have to balance this. <bolding and emphasis mine> i don't like that, one bit. ;D but this is a legitimate concern. one of the reasons we even considered coming forth with this information currently is because of what could be on the other side.
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Post by Inner Stickler on Sept 28, 2010 8:26:53 GMT -5
But in this instance, it appears that 3 members of the scum team have been revealed in one night through no fault of their own. I've nothing against detectives who can investigate each night but this is a lot for one Day/Night cycle and frankly I don't think that's very fun either. Perhaps this is just an unfortunate confluence of game mechanics. Or maybe there is more here than immediately meets the eye.
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timmy
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Post by timmy on Sept 28, 2010 8:37:32 GMT -5
I still don't get how in a regular game of mafia using my power would not count as visiting. I was not told that my power is in anyway "invisible" or anything, either. I hope the mods didn't just forget to include me on any list of people that targeted Batman. If so, I hope they fix the error. If they don't respond, are we to assume that lynching you will be their fault? Buddy Christ's pronouncement was cryptic, I'll give you that. Don't know if he's done anything or just blowing smoke up Town's crack. First inclination is to disbelieve anything confirmed Scum have to say. On the other hand, Buddy may have used power on you. Make you appear Scummy, or Miller-like. Could be that you are telling the truth, that you really are Town. Or could be you are Scum and Buddy did this to protect you. If Town investigates and reveals you as Scum, you can blame Buddy and we all turn our attention elsewhere. Interesting gambit. Been wondering why you counterclaimed Cop role when yours is more like a Watcher, of the telepathic sort. Makes no sense. Town would not counterclaim Cop, unless Batman lied. Two Cops in game? Doesn't seem balanced for Scum. Evidence points to Batman telling the truth, his target has confessed. Perhaps you are Scum and sought to get Batman lynched once he claimed Cop. Easy to eliminate Town power by sowing seeds of doubt among Town, but worth trading Cop for Scum?
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