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Post by gnarlycharlie on Jul 19, 2011 23:02:15 GMT -5
You know what, Guiri? You're right. I'm thinking about it and continuing to argue about this for the rest of today only benefits scum. It's come time where it's more pro-town to explain myself than to continue this. I was getting annoyed so I wasn't looking at the big picture and for that I'm sorry. This is what happened. I read Cody's post as others did, where he said "it seems all animals have their own character name" or something like that, as a clear indication that he was not vanilla town, he was either scum or a power. ( More about this in a minute, I know it's going to be questioned but the answer belongs a little bit below.( I was hesitant to vote him because he might be a town power, but was also suspicious of him due to his flip-flop on Trepa. The next day, when the reveals that each vanilla town had his or her own species name, I suspected him less on this count. And 2 or 3 other people had pointed this out already, so I thought it was anti-town to repeat it again. Anyone who noticed this is either scum or vanilla town. I am vanilla town but I didn't want to further reduce the pool for town power when several of you had already done so. Now, the part I'll be questioned on, I'm sure. When Janet claimed, which I believe was a genuine town action, I didn't notice her species was different than mine. I thought she'd posted the same thing as my PM so I thought all vanilla town had the same genus and species.So, there it is. Now, Ed will call me an idiot and say this wasn't a good reason. He may well be right. Maybe I'm an idiot and maybe it wasn't a good reason. When Surburban Plankton read my response as me being a power role, I thought perhaps it was a good thing, that scum might try to kill me at night and that would be better than them actually killing a power role. I find it highly curious that Ed never once commented on that idea though and kept insisting that the only explanation for my behavior was that I'm scum. The post I made saying that Meeko's revelation made me look bad but nevertheless, I'm not scum should be a strong indication I'm telling the truth here. If I were scum I would have objected to that post rather than admitting that it made me look guilty. i must agree that it's much ado over nothing. it feels like there's something more and this is the best you could come up with trying to cover up contradictory statements.
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Post by gnarlycharlie on Jul 19, 2011 23:09:41 GMT -5
I said I thought it went a long way to explaining her actions.. I have her pinned as SCUM for now... and with the information we have that SCUM didn't know each other until Night 1 and that they couldn't communicate until then... Perhaps Archangel actually suspected on Day 1 that colby11 was TOWN... was building a case against him to get him lynched... but when Night 1 came along and they discovered they were on the same team... She had to do some real quick back tracking but hasn't managed to do it with much success.. I'm still not sure about Silver Jan either... with this new information... perhaps she put out the info she was a Lemming in the hope that it would alert some fellow SCUM to her also being on their team. Outrun moodymitchyScum did already know each other and it looks as if you are trying to make a case against Archangel which isn't true. The mod seemed to have helped you a little bit there which you have used to your advantage. her interpretation of moodymitchy's post pings me. his post looks logical and i see nothing wrong with it. while i find this suspicious, at the moment, the case on Archangel is more compelling. Outrun Archangel
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Post by gnarlycharlie on Jul 19, 2011 23:11:25 GMT -5
Cap, you make it to D3 for once and you'll be gone for two more Days? call me crazy but i was actually looking forward to your contributions. Pinkies? Contributions? What are you smoking? i've heard he contributes starting D3. since he made it to D3, i wanted to see what his contributions were like.
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Post by special on Jul 19, 2011 23:26:37 GMT -5
Pinkies? Contributions? What are you smoking? i've heard he contributes starting D3. since he made it to D3, i wanted to see what his contributions were like. He claims to contribute starting on Day 3, but so far he hasn't backed up that claim. In fact, in one game, after skipping Day 2, this was his Day 3 contribution !%^*&$#^%&*$^%*)$#*($ MOD's... I swear I posted yesterday.... But clearly I did not... No excuses.... Got swamped with IRL stuff.. Like work and wee ones my little pony pricess tea party sleep over... Handling that many girls should give me a free and clear pass, at least for the night... I have done a re-read and my gut is telling me to go look at someone more carefully... But my poor brain isn't comprehending this even to make a case.... And I don't want to make a case without a review... and he was never heard from again. I'm just tired of it. It's almost as if he wants to spoil the game for everyone else by signing up and not playing. I'm especially irritated at our Vig for not killing him yet.
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Post by guiri on Jul 20, 2011 0:37:36 GMT -5
Match pace with Archangel Outrun moodymitchy
Based on logic, Archangel's play makes no sense to me and, while her explanation looks like she's caught herself up in lies, it makes no sense either. My gut has been leaning Town on her. I made the case against Trepa based on logic and look where it got us.
Based on gut, moodymitchy is scum, this is supported by the facts in my case against him and, given his pursuit of Archangel, I don't believe they are on the same team.
I don't feel comfortable voting Archangel as long as I have such strong suspicions of moodymitchy.
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Post by moodymitchy on Jul 20, 2011 0:46:05 GMT -5
But if you are TOWN you like I won;t know which team anyone is on...
Could we get a vote count please ?
I have not pursued Archangel I have made my case and voted.. then left it at that. Unless someone else has added something more to the mix.
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Post by Deni on Jul 20, 2011 0:51:05 GMT -5
So I have read through everything and then reread Colby's postings but saw nothing linking him to anyone. I read through Texcat's 8 posts from D2 didn't notice anything that would have gotten her nightkilled. I have gone over Archangel's posts repeatedly and half the time I am convinced she is scum and the next page I think she is town. Suburban Plankton puzzled me with his post on D2#164 where he makes the case for Archangel being a power player... leaving me with the question, why would someone want to out a power player for the scum to night kill? Then I had wonder why wasn't Archangel nightkilled? Typical of me, more questions then answers. I guess the thing that concerns me the most is that Archangel seems like an easy target. Easy targets that haven't been scum confirmed by a cop make me nervous I suppose. Reading through a week's worth of posts is a little overwhelming ... I know what I will be dreaming about tonight. -lol-
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Post by Silver Jan on Jul 20, 2011 1:17:51 GMT -5
Outrun moodymitchyScum did already know each other and it looks as if you are trying to make a case against Archangel which isn't true. The mod seemed to have helped you a little bit there which you have used to your advantage. her interpretation of moodymitchy's post pings me. his post looks logical and i see nothing wrong with it. while i find this suspicious, at the moment, the case on Archangel is more compelling. Outrun Archangel What I meant to explain was that I think moodymitchy jumped on the Mods mistake to make his case more compelling, he wasn't to know that Meeko would make a correction, When Meeko did explain that scum knew who each other were, moodymitchy hasn't really re-evaluted his case so to me it looks as if it's based on something that isn't true. If Archangel knew that Colby was scum on D1, why would she have gone after him so early in the game, it wasn't as if he were the lynch leader so she could gain some town cred on D1. The case against Archangel really doesn't seem right to me even if she made a mountain out of a Lemming hill.
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Post by guiri on Jul 20, 2011 1:18:31 GMT -5
as i said, i was reluctant initially to vote for Colby since he might be a power role. i was still suspicious of him. i discarded the idea of voting for Suburban because in D1 i already believed he was less suspicious than Colby. nothing on D2 made me change my mind on that. I understand, I made the comment during the period of misunderstanding so there was a potential scum motivation for your delay and reluctance to vote Colby D2 given your D1 suspicions. I retract that comment as it no longer applies.
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Post by guiri on Jul 20, 2011 1:41:51 GMT -5
again, my apologies for not being here more often. i don't really see how it's suspect. I thought you were around, my mistake. As for why it would have been suspect, you say it yourself: it's entirely possible scum would have played along with the initial revelation and react to it accordingly as well as keep quiet about it. I can see why some scum would choose to sit back and enjoy the confusion while others would jump in and add to/play on the confusion. I don't see why a Townie would choose to sit back and not get involved.
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Meeko
FGM
I raccoon it's time to play Mafia
Posts: 2,474
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Post by Meeko on Jul 20, 2011 7:36:02 GMT -5
Vote Count
Archangel (6) : moodymitchy,specialEd, captain pinkies, archangel, inner stickler, gnarlycharlie Suburban Plankton (1) : JBGinger moodymitchy (2) : Silver Jan, guiri Special Ed (1) : Archangel
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Post by fubbleskag on Jul 20, 2011 7:52:31 GMT -5
Vote Count
Archangel (6) : moodymitchy,specialEd, captain pinkies, archangel, inner stickler, gnarlycharlie Suburban Plankton (1) : JBGinger moodymitchy (2) : Silver Jan, guiri Special Ed (1) : Archangel I admit I've not been reading as thoroughly as I'd like to, but did Archangel vote for herself and I missed it?
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Post by CatInASuit on Jul 20, 2011 10:08:05 GMT -5
FWIW I'm around again briefly, I'll try and catch up and post something tomorrow.
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Post by CatInASuit on Jul 20, 2011 10:30:52 GMT -5
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Post by moodymitchy on Jul 20, 2011 12:01:05 GMT -5
@ Silver Jan....
I had already stated my case against Archangel before we were led (by the Mod) to believe that they never knew each other Day 1...
All this did for me and as I tried to explain was give me an understanding of why Archangel was on the case of colby11 Day 1 but did a pretty big back track Day 2. Though we now know that SCUM did indeed know their team mates..
I still stand by my initial reasoning for voting her... which has not diminished and was possibly compounded a bit by her confusing explanation as to why she held back on saying anything .
We've still got time for me to change my vote should I choose to.. I'm hoping that fubbleskag might be able to come back and add some more...
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Post by guiri on Jul 20, 2011 15:28:48 GMT -5
Just checking in... and am curious about this... Lighfoot makes no mention of what SCUM might be but gnarlycharlie says that SCUM are vanilla ?? Veiled PIS accusation? Just catching up.... I'm intrigued at the term rabids having been used when I haven't seen it in my PM... That's not to say that someone doesn't have it in theirs. Completely on the fence, wait and see approach I'm not at all happy at the way I "feel" you have completely mis represented what I said in my post. OMGUS vote, over-reaction? If there were no Night 0 actions.... then how can Silver Jan possibly know what others have in their PM's ?? Logically that would make her scum OR a mason but she's denied being a mason but there's no accusation and no vote, probable knowledge that there was no Night 0 communication IF Trepa Mayfield is actually telling the truth, then all he might have done is provided SCUM with the perfect layout of what a Vanilla role PM might look like... which to me is ANTI TOWN as it now gives SCUM an easy cover PM to pass on when they fear they might be for the rope.. (or the tranquilliser gun or what ever other method we will be using to send these fine creatures off to the glue factory). Of course as has been mentioned... SCUM could have been provided with a cover PM at the start of the game... which I feel is more likely as it's been a while since I played in a game where a sample Vanilla PM wasn't posted somewhere for all to see Feigned outrage at Trepa's anti-Town play which... is probably not anti-Town at all I too am wondering why Guiri is trying to lead the elephant to look at colby11. Defense of fellow-scum, some sort of smudge? Also , I know colby11 has stated they'll not be around for the end of Day but that is just sometimes the way it goes.... I don't feel players should be given a free pass just because they aren't around.. But he proceeds to give him a free pass and makes no comment on the case against ColbyEven IF SCUM hadn't / haven't been given a sample Vanilla PM... it wouldn't have been too hard for them to have made one up. Apparently not VT I don't really buy the "it's a name I made up for SCUM" line of thought... And wait for 221 posts before agreeing with the case? I quite often give the MOD a nickname that I address them with but I don't do it for the warring factions... I don't think others would either... But it's been established that others do Special Ed I take it you've put Fubbleskag in blue because this is an almost open game and we've had no counterclaim as yet. Not sure, PIS accusation or random comment? cassidyscarlet didn't have a particularly high post count yesterDay so it shouldn't be too hard to go back over them and see if anything indicated that they had a power of whether they had ruffled someones feathers. The only feathers that were ruffled were CassidyScarlet's by Special Ed but no analysis, no accusation, just "can someone take a look?" I can though see why Lighfoot would point out the "a pox upon you " comment as looking like they might have had some kind of power. Because it's been established that there are witches in the game? Hmmmm interesting comment there ... fishing maybe Another smudge I asked the question because I could have come back and appeared over defensive about something that wasn't there. Overly concerned how his posts are viewed? I'm now curious as to why Silver Jan on Day one, hinted at some sort of role ... all hush hush like and then is seen to have to "claim" Vanilla.... Maybe she is the one using the "cover" PM. Another smudge, no vote If you've seen something regarding SCUM then surely it's best to share it. Skimming? She said it won't help find scum and would be anti-town to share. Fishing? If she is no longer suspicious of Colby11 then , I think it might help the rest of us understand why not if we were told why... Especially if it can help clear Colby of suspicion I've agreed with people ... I've disagreed with people... that has no bearing to which side they might be on because I don't know what side anyone is on. "I'm Town, I'm Town" though I must say that colby11 with his "save ass" vote has raised my eyebrows a little. A little distancing before the inevitable she voted (possibly bussed) colby11 early enough in the Day for it to not look like it was "bussing" ... and at that point suburban plankton could have easily ended up dying but he didn't. Misrepresentation of the events Now yesterDay people were hinting that Archangel herself could have been hinting that she was some sort of power... why then is she NOT dead Ingenious, she must be scum because she's still alive My response stated that I believed I was still alive because I am garnering suspicion from quite a few people. Yourself being one and Sister Coyote is another one I feel is after me... It might be because you too are TOWN and know no different. "People are after me but I'm Town too!" Oh and if SCUM deduce that I might be a power role... then why not kill me... oh yeah that's right because I'm SCUM... sorry I was forgetting how simple this game was But, wasn't that your case against Archangel? You didn't want to mention (now lets see if I get this right) That colby11 had mentioned that he thought all vanilla were the same genus of Lemming on D1... you kept quite about it because a couple of other people had spotted that he'd made this assumption and that he was wrong... No, that's not it I'll get back to you on this one when I've had chance to go re read it in context... it's late here. And? I still think you are trying to spin a tale... and even if you are telling the truth.. you've just narrowed the pool down and I think at this stage of the game with SCUM only having 1 Night Kill... I'd take a mis lynch of a Vanilla rather than a power... but of course I'd prefer a SCUM which I still think you are... You'd be happy to lynch Archangel irrespective of her alignment @ guiri Do you only question the participating players... have you nothing to ask those that might well be reading along but not saying much because they can just go with the flow? Who is reading along? Name names. I don't have a monopoly on asking questions But if you are TOWN you like I won;t know which team anyone is on... I think you're scum, I don't think you and Archangel are cooperating scum I have not pursued Archangel I have made my case and voted.. First to pressure vote her D2 based on a misunderstanding? of her posts, first to pressure vote her D3 based on a misrepresentation of her play/posts, continued accusations due to a misunderstanding? or her explanation. If you think she's scum, why sit back and watch? And for Deni: I do understand that we need to communicate in order to find scum, it just seems like you are picking on me and moodymitchy a bit more because we are more vocal. Lightfoot, Deni, CIAS, Story, what are your thoughts? Am I completely off base here? Is Archangel a better lynch candidate and I'm just missing it?
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Post by Silver Jan on Jul 20, 2011 15:44:27 GMT -5
@ Deni, why aren't you communicating?? I have known you to have good insight but in this game you have nothing, why is that? I am beginning to wonder if you like Caps style of play so much that you decided to follow it?
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Post by special on Jul 20, 2011 15:57:06 GMT -5
quite compelling, guiri.
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Post by Suburban Plankton on Jul 20, 2011 15:58:19 GMT -5
Vote Count
Archangel (6) : moodymitchy,specialEd, captain pinkies, archangel, inner stickler, gnarlycharlie Suburban Plankton (1) : JBGinger moodymitchy (2) : Silver Jan, guiri Special Ed (1) : Archangel I admit I've not been reading as thoroughly as I'd like to, but did Archangel vote for herself and I missed it? That should be my name there voting for Archangel. I voted in Post 129. So the count is correct, but not the list of names.
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Post by Suburban Plankton on Jul 20, 2011 15:58:52 GMT -5
Apologies for my disappearance. I could give the whole sordid story, but I think I’d be better off spending my time actually participating. So, starting with a few random observations: 1. I do not understand the reasoning behind fubbleskag with-holding (the alignment portion of) the results of his investigations. Doing analysis of voting patterns and results is always easier and more effective with more information on the alignments of the players involved. Also, we have a Vigilante. Confirming Townies will help the Vig maximize his/her value. I can’t see any counterbalancing advantage to keeping the results secret. What am I missing here? 2. The Captain Pinkies thing is incredibly frustrating. I can’t believe he’s being nonparticipatory again. I hope he’s not a power role. 3. The case against Archangel is highly suspect to me. I’m reluctant to comment in detail until I’ve reviewed Days 1 and 2 in detail, but I simply don’t see the Scum motivation in her actions so far. Confusing, in some cases? Yes. But Scummy? How? So, step one, tomorrow morning, is going to be reviewing the Day 2 voting. Sorry again for vanishing… it’s been a hell of a month. Any luck this morning?
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Post by Suburban Plankton on Jul 20, 2011 16:18:08 GMT -5
<snipped 31 quotes of moodymitchy's posts> guiri, is there anything moodymitchy has posted in this game that you didn't find suspicious?
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Post by moodymitchy on Jul 20, 2011 16:32:51 GMT -5
@ guiri... I'll try to tackle these one by one and make my responses as clear as you make the context of the posts... 1, I hadn't quite grasped from the rules that SCUM had no powers listed. gnarlycharlie had stated that due to it being an open set up... SCUM had not been given any powers... therefore all vanilla.. No PIS accusation whatsoever. 2, I don't have the term "rabids" in my PM.... I've not seen anyone else's PM so I can't speak for them. It's a statement of fact.. not a sit on the fence.. 3.I felt I was mis represented... I voted because that's how I play the game... I am still awaiting a response from Sister Coyote on some stuff I put to her that Day... BUT she hasn't been around. 4, Not even sure what you're trying to get at with this one. 5, So posting a Vanilla Town (as we now know to him to have been) when we have no knowledge if SCUM have had access to one or not... You see that as a pro TOWN thing to do ? 6, Or just a wondering if you were trying to get someone else looked at rather than yourself. 7, In that same post you'll see that I gave reasons for voting someone else... Oh it's also here that I mention I still have stuff unanswered from Sister Coyote8, So you think it's hard to make up a sample PM then... When there's what ? 5 of you to put your heads together and come up with something plausible. 9, I didn't believe that he'd give SCUM a name other than SCUM. 10, What I think others do whilst playing a game is obviously different to what others thnk. 11, Or just a straight out statement meaning exactly what it said... Mr Special Ed was/ is happy to believe fubbleskag so put their name in blue... I was asking if this was the case. 12, Yeah sometimes I'm lazy like that. 13, Pox is also like an illness... ie small pox and stuff like that. 14, I've already responded to this one. 15, And you obviously don;t care how your posts might look/ come across to others that read them. 16,So you consider me saying... "maybe she is the one using a cover PM" to be a smudge ? I see it as a comment. 17, Oh yes... asking someone to share information they say they have or stuff they think they've seen... that's obviously fishing. 18, Saying you have stuff and then refusing to share it... I believe that to be anti TOWN.. 19, It's true I'm TOWN I'm TOWN ;D 20, misunderstanding of what time Day ended... though if we look at the vote count she was 3rd vote.. and we all know what that means ha ha 21, Suburban Plankton mooted that he thought Archangel had hinted at being a power... Now if I were SCUM I'd have taken a shot at someone whom others may have thought had a power. 22, see number 19 23, Didn't you notice the little winky icon at the end of the post... it denotes sarcasm 24, Oh well she's obviously managed to confuse me as well as herself. 25, Spent too much time responding to you to have chance to go back and check 26, I'd rather not lynch a TOWN power... I'd prefer a SCUM member but if it is a mis lynch then it's better a vanilla than a power. 27, I say "might" be reading along NOT "are" reading along... Is this an attempt to mis represent me ? 28, IF you are TOWN... you won't know the alignment of anyone else playing the came... That's one of the easier concepts of the game. 29. First to vote her due to my (perhaps misguided) belief that she is SCUM 30, There are only so many ways I can say why I think she is SCUM. If other choose not to agree with my reasoning then that's up to them. Right I think that's all of them... I'm not bothering to preview this so there might be some mistakes. I accept that you believe me to be SCUM... that's your prerogative. But I'm wondering why you are now asking others if they think you might have it wrong.
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Post by moodymitchy on Jul 20, 2011 16:35:43 GMT -5
<snipped 31 quotes of moodymitchy's posts> guiri, is there anything moodymitchy has posted in this game that you didn't find suspicious? Damn I knew there'd be one I'd miss
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Post by LightFoot on Jul 20, 2011 16:41:54 GMT -5
Going back to Day 2 Because the day is almost over, and I have to say myself from being lynched Outrun Suburban Plankton (bleached) Don't want to do this, but I have no choice in the matter This smells like a poorly written apology to a Scum brother. (Why would Scum apologize for voting Town?) JustBeingGinger called SP on it early today This post got buried just before the “ did Scum know each other” fiasco idlemafia.com/index.cgi?action=gotopost&board=afaf&thread=1664&post=80624Then everyone got distracted…………… So if Scum treats you like fellow Scum you Must be Town? (Scum wouldn’t do that would they?) This seems to have slipped under the rug. I would like a better look at it. After his near lynch yesterday no-one is making a case against him today? To add to my earlier suspicions I ask……………. If he was the bandwagon to save Colby then he’s likely not Scum ( one vanilla for another theorie) BUT If he is Town why isn’t Scum continuing to harangue him ( good target, almost got lynched yesterday) If I'm missing something please enlighten me?
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Post by guiri on Jul 20, 2011 16:48:15 GMT -5
I accept that you believe me to be SCUM... that's your prerogative. But I'm wondering why you are now asking others if they think you might have it wrong. I'm trying to understand why my case is getting almost no traction. The players who have yet to vote toDay are surely weighing up the alternative cases before voting so they may have some insight.
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Post by moodymitchy on Jul 20, 2011 16:52:15 GMT -5
Or they simply might think I'm not SCUM..
Or they could mostly be SCUM and not really care whether it's me or Archangel that goes just so long as it's not one of them.
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Post by special on Jul 20, 2011 16:58:21 GMT -5
Going back to Day 2 Because the day is almost over, and I have to say myself from being lynched Outrun Suburban Plankton (bleached) Don't want to do this, but I have no choice in the matter This smells like a poorly written apology to a Scum brother. (Why would Scum apologize for voting Town?) JustBeingGinger called SP on it early today This post got buried just before the “ did Scum know each other” fiasco idlemafia.com/index.cgi?action=gotopost&board=afaf&thread=1664&post=80624Then everyone got distracted…………… So if Scum treats you like fellow Scum you Must be Town? (Scum wouldn’t do that would they?) This seems to have slipped under the rug. I would like a better look at it. After his near lynch yesterday no-one is making a case against him today? To add to my earlier suspicions I ask……………. If he was the bandwagon to save Colby then he’s likely not Scum ( one vanilla for another theorie) BUT If he is Town why isn’t Scum continuing to harangue him ( good target, almost got lynched yesterday) If I'm missing something please enlighten me? Yes, he could have been apologizing in case he successfully got Suburban lynched. When Suburban flipped Town, he could say, "Well, I didn't want to lynch him, but it was him or me and I knew I was Town." So it really gives us no information about Suburban. Suburban could be Town or Scum.
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Post by Suburban Plankton on Jul 20, 2011 17:01:21 GMT -5
Going back to Day 2 Because the day is almost over, and I have to say myself from being lynched Outrun Suburban Plankton (bleached) Don't want to do this, but I have no choice in the matter This smells like a poorly written apology to a Scum brother. (Why would Scum apologize for voting Town?) JustBeingGinger called SP on it early today This post got buried just before the “ did Scum know each other” fiasco idlemafia.com/index.cgi?action=gotopost&board=afaf&thread=1664&post=80624Then everyone got distracted…………… So if Scum treats you like fellow Scum you Must be Town? (Scum wouldn’t do that would they?) This seems to have slipped under the rug. I would like a better look at it. After his near lynch yesterday no-one is making a case against him today? To add to my earlier suspicions I ask……………. If he was the bandwagon to save Colby then he’s likely not Scum ( one vanilla for another theorie) BUT If he is Town why isn’t Scum continuing to harangue him ( good target, almost got lynched yesterday) If I'm missing something please enlighten me? Well, CatInaSuit voted for me because of a misunderstanding (which he acknowledged earlier today), and colby only voted out of self-preservation, so the only 'good' votes against me were from you and Silver Jan. I'm guessing that nobody else thought your case was particularly compelling. So why aren't you voting for me Today?
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Post by Suburban Plankton on Jul 20, 2011 17:02:54 GMT -5
Or they could mostly be SCUM and not really care whether it's me or Archangel that goes just so long as it's not one of them. reading this, one would almost get the impression that you believe Archangel to be Town.
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Post by JustBeingGinger on Jul 20, 2011 17:05:09 GMT -5
I do have to say the one thing that pings me the most about Moodymitch is the fact that he has posted more than once in a post that he has no knowledge of the alignments of others. Yes, say it once but I have read it a couple of times.
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