Meeko
FGM
I raccoon it's time to play Mafia
Posts: 2,474
[ Exalt | Smite ]
Karma:
|
Post by Meeko on Sept 1, 2011 23:16:05 GMT -5
Storyteller has died.
Storyteller was a Lemmus trimucronatus, better known as a North American Brown Lemming.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Elmer and Alexis both entered the Lemming pit. Two Zookeepers, two remaining lemmings. It should be easy, right?
GnarlyCharly, a rabid Wrangel Island Lemming (Lemmus Portenkoi) foaming at the mouth, goes on a rampage and kills Archacngel, a Wrangel Island Lemming (Lemmus Portenkoi) , Elmer, and Alexis all in two seconds flat*,**.[/color]
* Yeah, Elmer and Alexis, remember them? (They weren't doing much anyway.) -- Yeah, I don't. [Sorry about the lack of color guys. But I'm getting ahead of myself.]
** What, you guys actually wanted to wait two more days to end this game? If I think it was trainwreck, I can only imagine what you guys thought of it.
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We need to address what happens when the Doctor in ANY mafia game lies his ass off. I don't think there was single claim made by Fubbs that was correct. I motion that Doctors should be mod-killed the moment they misrepresent their findings, in otherwise standard games.
What did you guys make of the Animal color, the Porcupine for the Vig, Lemmings for VT and what not? Suffice to say I had ideas for more complicated roles, and I might revisit them in another zoo game. ...... After a long sabbatical.
|
|
Meeko
FGM
I raccoon it's time to play Mafia
Posts: 2,474
[ Exalt | Smite ]
Karma:
|
Post by Meeko on Sept 1, 2011 23:17:09 GMT -5
Scratch that. make that Detectives.
The entire reporting of who was Town, and who wasn't was shot 8 ways to sunday.
|
|
|
Post by special on Sept 1, 2011 23:20:37 GMT -5
Storyteller has died.
Storyteller was a Lemmus trimucronatus, better known as a North American Brown Lemming.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Elmer and Alexis both entered the Lemming pit. Two Zookeepers, two remaining lemmings. It should be easy, right? GnarlyCharly, a rabid Wrangel Island Lemming (Lemmus Portenkoi) foaming at the mouth, goes on a rampage and kills Archacngel, a Wrangel Island Lemming (Lemmus Portenkoi) , Elmer, and Alexis all in two seconds flat*,**. [/color] * Yeah, Elmer and Alexis, remember them? (They weren't doing much anyway.) -- Yeah, I don't. [Sorry about the lack of color guys. But I'm getting ahead of myself.] ** What, you guys actually wanted to wait two more days to end this game? If I think it was trainwreck, I can only imagine what you guys thought of it. - --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We need to address what happens when the Doctor in ANY mafia game lies his ass off. I don't think there was single claim made by Fubbs that was correct. I motion that Doctors should be mod-killed the moment they misrepresent their findings, in otherwise standard games. What did you guys make of the Animal color, the Porcupine for the Vig, Lemmings for VT and what not? Suffice to say I had ideas for more complicated roles, and I might revisit them in another zoo game. ...... After a long sabbatical. [/quote] I thought the lie was either: 1. a mistake 2. an intentional ploy to see how the players reacted to the wrong information. I can certainly see it as a tactic to use. How would the Scum react to such wrong information. it might lead to something noticeable. I think correcting the mistake through mod action was certainly wrong. It turned what was potentially an attempt by the Cop to get even more information into the play that the moderator wanted the Cop to make.
|
|
Meeko
FGM
I raccoon it's time to play Mafia
Posts: 2,474
[ Exalt | Smite ]
Karma:
|
Post by Meeko on Sept 1, 2011 23:20:43 GMT -5
Do any of us, besides me, work in retail ?
I can't believe how not my own, my time is, or rather, isn't.
|
|
|
Post by special on Sept 1, 2011 23:21:16 GMT -5
It might have been better to prompt him through PM to recheck his results at most, if you felt it was needed.
But you've got to let the players play.
|
|
|
Post by special on Sept 1, 2011 23:22:52 GMT -5
My first career was retail. I truly enjoyed it, and still miss it sometimes, though I fear it has changed dramatically.
|
|
Meeko
FGM
I raccoon it's time to play Mafia
Posts: 2,474
[ Exalt | Smite ]
Karma:
|
Post by Meeko on Sept 1, 2011 23:23:12 GMT -5
It might have been better to prompt him through PM to recheck his results at most, if you felt it was needed. But you've got to let the players play. I'd love them to comment now, even more. I tried, and frankly, I'm not so sure about my future here. In any capacity. Completely underestimated how hard this would be.
|
|
|
Post by special on Sept 1, 2011 23:24:48 GMT -5
It might have been better to prompt him through PM to recheck his results at most, if you felt it was needed. But you've got to let the players play. I'd love them to comment now, even more. I tried, and frankly, I'm not so sure about my future here. In any capacity. Completely underestimated how hard this would be. What was difficult about it? Keeping up with it? Or watching it and having absolutely no control over your creation? For me, it's always a little bit of both, but it's also so interesting to see how the players take what you give them and run with it.
|
|
Meeko
FGM
I raccoon it's time to play Mafia
Posts: 2,474
[ Exalt | Smite ]
Karma:
|
Post by Meeko on Sept 1, 2011 23:26:18 GMT -5
It turned what was potentially an attempt by the Cop to get even more information into the play that the moderator wanted the Cop to make. So, Lynch all Liars, except if are lying, and you happen to be Power Town.
|
|
Meeko
FGM
I raccoon it's time to play Mafia
Posts: 2,474
[ Exalt | Smite ]
Karma:
|
Post by Meeko on Sept 1, 2011 23:31:38 GMT -5
I'd love them to comment now, even more. I tried, and frankly, I'm not so sure about my future here. In any capacity. Completely underestimated how hard this would be. What was difficult about it? Keeping up with it? Or watching it and having absolutely no control over your creation? For me, it's always a little bit of both, but it's also so interesting to see how the players take what you give them and run with it. The timing of it all. I totally thought and had plans to do more color stuff. But, as my schedule was not my own, it was all I could do to keep the game moving, period, skeleton wise, color be damned. There is no way to play any message-board game with a retail job. No control? This is a slippery slope, obviously I tried to correct what I felt was game breaking ""mistakes"", a Mod can do anything he wants, and it would still revert back to what the players will to happen. ... So Why Mod at all ? Again, it's slippery here. I mean, I thought Town had this one in the bag. -
|
|
|
Post by special on Sept 1, 2011 23:34:05 GMT -5
It turned what was potentially an attempt by the Cop to get even more information into the play that the moderator wanted the Cop to make. So, Lynch all Liars, except if are lying, and you happen to be Power Town. Unless they have a good reason. Fubble was pretty much confirmed Cop. If he'd come back later and said something like: 1. I lied, Player A was really Scum 2. I think Player B is also Scum because they reacted such and such way to the wrong information. Who wouldn't believe them? It was a dastardly trap, and I only regret that I'd never thought about it before as an outed Cop.
|
|
|
Post by special on Sept 1, 2011 23:36:11 GMT -5
What was difficult about it? Keeping up with it? Or watching it and having absolutely no control over your creation? For me, it's always a little bit of both, but it's also so interesting to see how the players take what you give them and run with it. The timing of it all. I totally thought and had plans to do more color stuff. But, as my schedule was not my own, it was all I could do to keep the game moving, period, skeleton wise, color be damned. There is no way to play any message-board game with a retail job. No control? This is a slippery slope, obviously I tried to correct what I felt was game breaking ""mistakes"", a Mod can do anything he wants, and it would still revert back to what the players will to happen. ... So Why Mod at all ? Again, it's slippery here. I mean, I thought Town had this one in the bag. - You moderate because someone has to know what's going on and give the results. The game can't be broken if it's not broken. The mod's job is to play it out fairly, not to correct for errors by the players. That's my opinion.
|
|
Meeko
FGM
I raccoon it's time to play Mafia
Posts: 2,474
[ Exalt | Smite ]
Karma:
|
Post by Meeko on Sept 1, 2011 23:37:05 GMT -5
Open questions / comments for the players :
What did you guys think about the diction of the claims? [[Try to handshake now, that the game is over]]
What do you guys think of the fact that I didn't have any Norway Lemmings?
And totally my bad on not giving anyone a Win-con. I own that one.
|
|
Meeko
FGM
I raccoon it's time to play Mafia
Posts: 2,474
[ Exalt | Smite ]
Karma:
|
Post by Meeko on Sept 1, 2011 23:38:06 GMT -5
The mod's job is to play it out fairly, not to correct for errors by the players. That's my opinion. How do you reconcile fairness without correction?
|
|
|
Post by special on Sept 1, 2011 23:42:03 GMT -5
The mod's job is to play it out fairly, not to correct for errors by the players. That's my opinion. How do you reconcile fairness without correction? What do you mean? What was unfair about what fubble did? If it was a mistake, well his team should pay for the mistake. If it was a gambit, his team should be allowed to benefit from it.
|
|
Meeko
FGM
I raccoon it's time to play Mafia
Posts: 2,474
[ Exalt | Smite ]
Karma:
|
Post by Meeko on Sept 1, 2011 23:45:26 GMT -5
How do you reconcile fairness without correction? What do you mean? What was unfair about what fubble did? If it was a mistake, well his team should pay for the mistake. If it was a gambit, his team should be allowed to benefit from it. So the Mod sits back while a Confirmed Townie Conifrms a Scum as Town.
|
|
|
Post by special on Sept 1, 2011 23:48:41 GMT -5
What do you mean? What was unfair about what fubble did? If it was a mistake, well his team should pay for the mistake. If it was a gambit, his team should be allowed to benefit from it. So the Mod sits back while a Confirmed Townie Conifrms a Scum as Town. Yes. Like I said, if it was really bothering you, you could have PM'd the Cop and told him to recheck his results. But I still think it might have been a gambit. You could have checked to be sure. Not everyone is going to play the way you would. Some of us do wacky things from time to time. Do you think the Town would have believed fubble if he came back and said he was wrong? or that he'd intentionally lied? Of course they would have. And the game might have turned out differently.
|
|
Meeko
FGM
I raccoon it's time to play Mafia
Posts: 2,474
[ Exalt | Smite ]
Karma:
|
Post by Meeko on Sept 1, 2011 23:51:02 GMT -5
So the Mod sits back while a Confirmed Townie Conifrms a Scum as Town. Yes. Like I said, if it was really bothering you, you could have PM'd the Cop and told him to recheck his results. But I still think it might have been a gambit. You could have checked to be sure. Not everyone is going to play the way you would. Some of us do wacky things from time to time. Do you think the Town would have believed fubble if he came back and said he was wrong? or that he'd intentionally lied? Of course they would have. And the game might have turned out differently. And "Fair" just disappeared.
|
|
|
Post by special on Sept 1, 2011 23:51:05 GMT -5
What do you mean? What was unfair about what fubble did? If it was a mistake, well his team should pay for the mistake. If it was a gambit, his team should be allowed to benefit from it. So the Mod sits back while a Confirmed Townie Conifrms a Scum as Town. Would you have given Town fubble's results if he didn't provide any that day? Knowing full well he was going to die that Night? That would have been a huge error on his part as well? Would you have prevented a Town Vig from killing an investigated Town because it was the wrong move? And those examples are actual errors on a player's part. You took the intentional lie as a gambit out of play for the game to try to force the game into how you thought it should be played.
|
|
|
Post by special on Sept 1, 2011 23:52:46 GMT -5
Yes. Like I said, if it was really bothering you, you could have PM'd the Cop and told him to recheck his results. But I still think it might have been a gambit. You could have checked to be sure. Not everyone is going to play the way you would. Some of us do wacky things from time to time. Do you think the Town would have believed fubble if he came back and said he was wrong? or that he'd intentionally lied? Of course they would have. And the game might have turned out differently. And "Fair" just disappeared. No, of course, player error is 'fair" You don't cancel an interception just because the quarterback threw the ball to the wrong spot. You don't call a player safe because he tripped and fell and would have made it to the base if he hadn't.
|
|
|
Post by special on Sept 1, 2011 23:54:29 GMT -5
Though, I'll admit, you were in a tough spot. You thought the Scum were going to win all because of a mistake by one player.
But that's why I think you should have checked. You immediately assumed it was a mistake and didn't check.
You may well be right, but you could have corrected it privately with fubble. And that would have still allowed fubble to use the lie as a gambit approach.
|
|
Meeko
FGM
I raccoon it's time to play Mafia
Posts: 2,474
[ Exalt | Smite ]
Karma:
|
Post by Meeko on Sept 2, 2011 0:01:55 GMT -5
You took the intentional lie as a gambit out of play for the game to try to force the game into how you thought it should be played. Interesting way to spell "To keep the game fair".
|
|
Meeko
FGM
I raccoon it's time to play Mafia
Posts: 2,474
[ Exalt | Smite ]
Karma:
|
Post by Meeko on Sept 2, 2011 0:05:47 GMT -5
Though, I'll admit, you were in a tough spot. You thought the Scum were going to win all because of a mistake by one player. But that's why I think you should have checked. You immediately assumed it was a mistake and didn't check. You may well be right, but you could have corrected it privately with fubble. And that would have still allowed fubble to use the lie as a gambit approach. Right, and part of my original comment was on the fact that Power Town for better or for worse, should NOT be allowed this much play. If you are Power Town, and you do something completely Anti-Town, it should be stopped, full stop, as soon as possible. It's not fair to one of the sides playing. Amazingly, that side is TOWN. The "Ends Justify the Means" argument shouldn't hold here, because you should never get to the end.
|
|
|
Post by Deni on Sept 2, 2011 0:38:42 GMT -5
Nicely done Gnarlie, you played an awesome game, well except for Night 8? I am not sure what the right decision would have been. If scum won under the circumstances that I wasn't voted out because I was confirmed town how annoying would that have been. Personally, I think it would have left a bad taste in everyone's mouth, although it would have been cool playing a confirmed townee I love the setup I thought it was awesome and I did notice there were no Norway lemmings and I wondered if there was a reason why they were missed. Although you may not have done as much color as you would have liked I loved the owl and porcupine and elephant additions. The only thing I thought was the days dragged on too long but what can you do it has to follow your schedule and when you can guarantee you will be on.
|
|
|
Post by gnarlycharlie on Sept 2, 2011 1:31:21 GMT -5
damn! i really thought winning was an impossible task especially with the no NK. i'm more relieved than ecstatic.
my thoughts:
1. i agree with Ed about letting the 'mistake' stand. i will say this whether i am town or scum. players are responsible for their posts. he also makes an interesting point that it could have been a gambit.
2. i felt scum should have been 5 not 4. that was tough. plus...
3. in an open game like this without any roles for scum, i would have not put a vig.
4. i think letting the scum NK go before the vig kill is okay IF it was announced beforehand. obviously as undermanned and underpowered scum, we'll take any advantage given us. FTR, it wasn't because we sent an order first. it was because the NK always goes before the vig kill in our setup.
Meeko, don't let this rough first time modding discourage you. you have interesting ideas and ways of thinking. i hope to play with you again as a player and a mod.
and spoilers please, the non-scum type. ;D
oh, i nearly forgot. why no NK that one Night? i both sent out an order and i also didn't. shortly after Night fell, i put in an order to NK moodymitchy. for some reason, it didn't post. it may have been a board glitch or my connection was cut while i was posting or didn't post but my son closed the browser. whatever the reason, no order was sent. i was furious with myself for not checking the board before EON. i should have made sure. if the order was sent, i believe scum would have won with Inner Stickler's lynching.
|
|
|
Post by CatInASuit on Sept 2, 2011 3:37:42 GMT -5
Woo hoo, congrats to my fellow scum.
Meeko, thanks for the game, it was most enjoyable. Don't let a couple of minor things ruin it for you.
The colour and roles were great. I really enjoyed playing a rabid lemming ;D
Thoughts on the game.
1. The odds were really stacked against the scum given the setup, but it would be churlish to complain now. I didn't even notice we didn't have a WinCon in our PMs until Day 5, when it looked as though we may have a small chance. We could have done with either add a Godfather or a 5th scum.
2. I have to ask gnarlycharlie. If I had been lynched on Day 5, would you have NK'd storyteller or Suburban Plankton instead of JBG?
3. I would be interested to know if fubbleskag was mistaken or trying a ploy? I'm on the "Let the players, play" side. If a player makes a mistake, I don't think it should be up to the mod to correct it. Would it have ruined the game? I think there would have been a lot of questions after to fubbleskag as to why it was wrong.
4. The NK difference did need to be mentioned up front at the start as an extra rule, because it was slightly different to the norm.
Apart from that, I'm looking forward to the next Meeko extravaganza.
|
|
|
Post by gnarlycharlie on Sept 2, 2011 5:01:14 GMT -5
CIAS, i might decided to NK SP. good call there.
JBG, never occurred to me that you were the vig. great job.
|
|
|
Post by CatInASuit on Sept 2, 2011 5:34:13 GMT -5
CIAS, i might decided to NK SP. good call there. JBG, never occurred to me that you were the vig. great job. Even after I spent the entirety of Day 5 saying the scum have to kill JBG I'll be honest, I thought I was going to get lynched until SilverJan blinked first and was trying to drop you a big enough hint on who to NK. Not so much a breadcrumb as the whole loaf.
|
|
|
Post by guiri on Sept 2, 2011 6:58:58 GMT -5
Well played scum, congrats!
|
|
|
Post by storyteller0910 on Sept 2, 2011 8:28:18 GMT -5
That was a really fun game, my own early-game participation problems notwithstanding. A hearty well-played to the Scum.
Once I got to three-handed, I knew we were going to lose. I kind of thought gnarlycharly had generated too little attention to be Town by a Day or two earlier, but I felt like I'd never be able to convince anyone of that. It was certainly clear that no one was going to lynch charly instead of me, come to it, and I just couldn't figure out a way to make a case. Very well played by charly, to put himself in a position that good.
|
|