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Post by Deni on Sept 2, 2011 8:38:54 GMT -5
CIAS - I have to say good job on the JBG call as vig. I realize I was dead by this time but I didn't pick up that she was the vig either. I agree gnarly played an amazing game it was a learning experience to watch knowing full well he was scum.
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Post by CatInASuit on Sept 2, 2011 8:55:58 GMT -5
CIAS - I have to say good job on the JBG call as vig. I realize I was dead by this time but I didn't pick up that she was the vig either. I agree gnarly played an amazing game it was a learning experience to watch knowing full well he was scum. I didn't pick up on JBG being the vigilante either. I was being brutally honest in Day 5 about the Town/Scum situation, everything I said was true. Unless JBG was the Vig, and the scum would have to NK her, we could give up there and then. Everything else would have led to a Town win. However, she pretty much confirmed she was the Vig because she didn't claim. JBG: was there any reason you didn't claim Vanilla Townie. Because at that point, I would probably have thrown in the towel. This would have been one of those times, that a lying townie would be completely understandable.
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Post by Deni on Sept 2, 2011 9:50:32 GMT -5
Well it definitely worked, I will admit when she said no comment I thought... hmmm... maybe. I can't fish for information like you did (maybe some day), that was awesome. When you first on Day 5 started I assumed you already thought she was the vig and I was trying to see how you knew that. Knowing that you were clueless and desperate makes that even more impressive that was an extremely good play. Halfway through that day I was almost convinced you were non rabid, I probably would have blinked too.
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Post by JustBeingGinger on Sept 2, 2011 11:04:35 GMT -5
CIAS - I have to say good job on the JBG call as vig. I realize I was dead by this time but I didn't pick up that she was the vig either. I agree gnarly played an amazing game it was a learning experience to watch knowing full well he was scum. I didn't pick up on JBG being the vigilante either. I was being brutally honest in Day 5 about the Town/Scum situation, everything I said was true. Unless JBG was the Vig, and the scum would have to NK her, we could give up there and then. Everything else would have led to a Town win. However, she pretty much confirmed she was the Vig because she didn't claim. JBG: was there any reason you didn't claim Vanilla Townie. Because at that point, I would probably have thrown in the towel. This would have been one of those times, that a lying townie would be completely understandable. CONGRATS, GNARLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I thought about claiming vanilla, but the last time I faked claim it didn't turn out so well, and if I was caught in a lie then I would have to really claim or run the risk of being lynched. I am not sure I like being a vig, hard decisions when you go blind... Thanks, MEEKO! Good game!
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Post by Suburban Plankton on Sept 2, 2011 14:07:35 GMT -5
Well done gnarly!
You had me completely fooled. Well played.
The only real bit of constructive criticism I have is that fubbles' play probably should have been allowed to stand without Mod-intervention. I'm not sure if he was up to something, if he made an honest mistake, or if he was just screwing with us, but them's the breaks, whatever it was. Though I would like to know. If this sets a precedent for detectives deliberately giving false information, that could change things for future games.
The only other thing that might have been done differently was to shorten the length of the last couple of Days. Once it gets down to the later stages, it generally doesn't take too long for folks to figure out where their suspicions lie, so shorter Days would have made the game less 'dragged out' at the end.
All in all, a good game. It came almost right down to the wire, which is what you're looking for.
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Post by special on Sept 2, 2011 15:43:21 GMT -5
Well done gnarly! You had me completely fooled. Well played. The only real bit of constructive criticism I have is that fubbles' play probably should have been allowed to stand without Mod-intervention. I'm not sure if he was up to something, if he made an honest mistake, or if he was just screwing with us, but them's the breaks, whatever it was. Though I would like to know. If this sets a precedent for detectives deliberately giving false information, that could change things for future games. The only other thing that might have been done differently was to shorten the length of the last couple of Days. Once it gets down to the later stages, it generally doesn't take too long for folks to figure out where their suspicions lie, so shorter Days would have made the game less 'dragged out' at the end. All in all, a good game. It came almost right down to the wire, which is what you're looking for. I can see giving fake information early in a Day and then correcting myself later, in order to judge reactions. However, only when acting as a solid confirmed Cop.
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Post by Paranoia on Sept 2, 2011 19:26:22 GMT -5
That was a really fun game, my own early-game participation problems notwithstanding. A hearty well-played to the Scum. Once I got to three-handed, I knew we were going to lose. I kind of thought gnarlycharly had generated too little attention to be Town by a Day or two earlier, but I felt like I'd never be able to convince anyone of that... Actually you could have just eaten the lynch day eight, and the town would have been left with your dying suspicions, now that I think about it. I think people would have looked closer at charely if they had a confirmed townie going after him that last day.
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Post by gnarlycharlie on Sept 2, 2011 21:00:40 GMT -5
thanks everyone for your kind words. takes some of the sting off the debacle in Astral Rejection's game in the Dope.
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Post by Meeko on Sept 2, 2011 23:11:07 GMT -5
I was amazed at how much you guys needed the set up spelled out. I really didn't think that Mafia Games, especially those among us, varied that much.
Is there not some given set of assumptions in general for all mafia games, exceptions listed only ?
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Post by Meeko on Sept 2, 2011 23:12:34 GMT -5
Also, did anyone get the Dustin Diamond Joke the night we lost Pinkies? []
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Post by sturmhauke on Sept 2, 2011 23:35:23 GMT -5
I'm just an observer here, but I empatically don't think the moderator should step in to dictate how the players play. The way I see it, the mod's job is only to do the setup, manage the game clock, count lynch votes, resolve night actions, and pass out the initial results to the appropriate players. What the players then do with that information, and how they choose to present it to others, is entirely up to them - indeed, it's the core of the game. Mafia is essentially a game about manipulating information to your side's advantage. Often that means lying your ass off.
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Post by Inner Stickler on Sept 2, 2011 23:39:10 GMT -5
I was amazed at how much you guys needed the set up spelled out. I really didn't think that Mafia Games, especially those among us, varied that much. Is there not some given set of assumptions in general for all mafia games, exceptions listed only ? What do you mean? Are you talking closed vs open or Night Action resolution or what? This game was open except for the exact number of scum and Night Action resolution, I don't remember ever being an issue. But yeah, players often badger mods for clarification on things the mod feels are crystal clear already. Go read some of Pleo's comments in discussion threads. He tries to make the setup as ordered as possible with as little mod intervention as he can get away with. Sounds like that may be more your style? Good job scum. (I hate admitting when people best me. Well, no, I can admit that. I just hate losing.) If I were modding, I would have let fubbles' misinformation stand. It wasn't a fault in the setup, it wasn't a mod screwup. It was fubbles being odd and them's the breaks.
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Post by Meeko on Sept 3, 2011 12:01:34 GMT -5
But yeah, players often badger mods for clarification on things the mod feels are crystal clear already. Go read some of Pleo's comments in discussion threads. He tries to make the setup as ordered as possible with as little mod intervention as he can get away with. Sounds like that may be more your style? Good job scum. (I hate admitting when people best me. Well, no, I can admit that. I just hate losing.) If I were modding, I would have let fubbles' misinformation stand. It wasn't a fault in the setup, it wasn't a mod screwup. It was fubbles being odd and them's the breaks. In Order : Yes, I was thinking there should be some template file that you [Mod] fill in mad-lib style, and at the end you have a turn-key mafia game the ready. I used to be against using WYSIWYG HTML editors because I thought that they handcuffed creativity to using just the bells and whistles given. Then it dawned on me, that if you can get to the actual creation process faster, there is no disadvantage. That is to say, the routine parts of a Mafia game are a given, and they are a given to the point of being the same. The more time spent making your game truly different from the rest, the better. On Fubbs and the Mod-reveal of Deni. As an aside, "With great power, comes great responsibility" , It holds true for Spider-Man and it should hold true for Power Town. This is perhaps the best, succinct, way I can make my point. But, I expand below: A Mod can decide the starting mix [balance] for a game, if a game should have X scum, or X+1 or X-1 or even X+Y scum. This is by definition, and if the Mod can't have such control, he couldn't mod very much. That to say, I still believe a Power Town player can not be allowed to lie, and i would go so far as to say that a Mod-kill should be in effect if they do. If I can pick the number of scum, I think I should be able to institute such a truth-clause by power town. I would consider a truth-clause to have the same weight in a game set-up as starting scum number. As free as I am to set up starting scum, I should be just as free to enforce a truth clause. The problem, in hindsight, is that I more or less considered that a Power Town player, would always [in general, and at each step] play in Town's best interest. That is, I didn't even think to question that a Power Town would presume to lie. But there are always exceptions. To the immediate game, Fubbs did have the pregnancy, and I think [and thought] that [and rightfuly so] took attention from Fubbs game. I did, in the moment, read his moves as being IRL distracted, and not any ploy ((Again, why on earth would a Power Town mislead townies?)) To that end, I felt I had to act. ..... Further I felt that Deni would coast to the endgame == guarantee a scum victory from that gamestate. The kicker of it all? Indeed, the other reported results were false. Not false in the sense that Fubbs got the alignments for all other non-deni players wrong, he got those right.... he just never investigated the people he said he did. So what does a Mod do, when effectively the Cop claims TWICE as many investigations as he actually has? I don't know. I have a feeling that allowing a Power Town to lie to fellow town comes from the same source that says Scum bussing is a good idea. Niether of them are. I would love to fully know, understand and GRASP how on earth these ideas are logical.
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Post by Meeko on Sept 3, 2011 13:10:57 GMT -5
Does anyone want passwords to the masonry and the scum board?
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Post by special on Sept 3, 2011 14:14:14 GMT -5
I cannot tell you how many times I've lied as Power Town. It's certain at least a dozen or so.
Why would you think that the moderator gets to handicap the Town by preventing that?
Especially in the case of a nearly 100% confirmed Town player?
So he made false claims. Did you not think that maybe he was trying to get people to react and then judge their guilt and/or innocence that way?
You may not lie as Town, but does that mean you should force everyone to follow your approach?
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Post by Deni on Sept 3, 2011 15:19:38 GMT -5
..... Further I felt that Deni would coast to the endgame == guarantee a scum victory from that gamestate. I love that scum won legitimately but I would have loved playing scum as a confirmed town because I think it would have been an opportunity for me to learn what I am doing wrong so that someday I will not be an obvious scum. The kicker of it all? Indeed, the other reported results were false. Not false in the sense that Fubbs got the alignments for all other non-deni players wrong, he got those right.... he just never investigated the people he said he did. That means that Archangel & Ginger were not confirmed town but you let that stand? Hmmmm, my thought here is that either all should have been rectified or all left. I don't know. I have a feeling that allowing a Power Town to lie to fellow town comes from the same source that says Scum bussing is a good idea. Niether of them are. I would love to fully know, understand and GRASP how on earth these ideas are logical. Scum bussing is a concept I have not understood myself. When Colby made his first scum tell I read it and thought, "Oh no people are going to figure out he is rabid". Gnarly, on the other hand, went after him and it was the correct response. That is what kept Gnarly in the game. Meeko, I would hope that you host another game. Hiccups and frustration aside you put together a good set up. First time for anything very rarely meets our expections but second and third time around is always more fun.
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Post by Meeko on Sept 3, 2011 22:50:55 GMT -5
I cannot tell you how many times I've lied as Power Town. It's certain at least a dozen or so. Why would you think that the moderator gets to handicap the Town by preventing that? Especially in the case of a nearly 100% confirmed Town player? So he made false claims. Did you not think that maybe he was trying to get people to react and then judge their guilt and/or innocence that way? You may not lie as Town, but does that mean you should force everyone to follow your approach? And this is the essential problem. Is Mafia not a Team game? Then why in the fuck does a player get to put themselves first, beyond the team? It is because Mafia is a Team game, and not a personal game, that a Mod can ..... no should step in once the game jumps tracks. But, your phrasing is so wrong to begin with. You set it up as a "Are you still beating your wife" type question. Why should a Mod prevent a train wreck? Simply ask the question, and you will have your answer. There is no ""handicap"" curing something. The only handicap I could see, is an allowance provided to someone [or someones] that otherwise, for any reason, would get it wrong. So yes, in that since, I handicapped you guys, by telling you that Someone you guys just confirmed as town, was in fact not. Or would you rather have played the game _knowing_ that deni is town?
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Post by special on Sept 3, 2011 22:59:18 GMT -5
never mind
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Post by Captain Klutz on Sept 4, 2011 3:43:05 GMT -5
That to say, I still believe a Power Town player can not be allowed to lie, and i would go so far as to say that a Mod-kill should be in effect if they do. JustBeingGinger was the vig, a town power role. People are saying that she should have claimed vanilla. If she had done that, would you have stepped in to say that she was lying?
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Post by Captain Klutz on Sept 4, 2011 3:44:16 GMT -5
Does anyone want passwords to the masonry and the scum board? It would be simpler to remove the password protection. Or even just post the passwords here.
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Meeko
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Post by Meeko on Sept 4, 2011 7:34:44 GMT -5
That to say, I still believe a Power Town player can not be allowed to lie, and i would go so far as to say that a Mod-kill should be in effect if they do. JustBeingGinger was the vig, a town power role. People are saying that she should have claimed vanilla. If she had done that, would you have stepped in to say that she was lying? At the time she would claim Vanilla, it was not already publicly known that they were a Power Role. Fubbs on the other hand, was lying AFTER it was already known that he was a town power role. IIRC, wasn't Fubbs on the chopping block at the time he cleared Deni? There would have been no time for him to pull off the rest of the gambit, if it was one.
Also, your question assumes that the act of claiming is not only the right thing to do in each and every game, but that is MUST occur in every game. Something that I think is a tad too meta. But I appreciate you being impossible and splitting hairs here. Really, because you know, having someone claim not what they are, and having someone else hand scum an immediate win, are exactly the same thing. The generalization I made earlier it perhaps too harsh. If you wanted me to say that, then there I just made your day. However, it doesn't change the bigger issue.Mafia games are set against Town. If a Power Town lies and in effect clears a scum as town, I feel that the Mod must step in, citing fairness. The game would be too unbalanced at that point. This was not a Gastard game, but if I let Deni coast with the cleared town claim, it would have become one.
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Meeko
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Post by Meeko on Sept 4, 2011 7:57:23 GMT -5
As I didn't play in that game, I'm not sure for certain what game it was. [Ragnorak or some such?]
In that game, two scum claimed to be masons. They confirmed each other, and IIRC, won the game based on that.
Should the Mod have stepped in on that one?
A Cop confirming a scum as a vanilla town, if not an identical case, would pretty darn close here.
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Post by Inner Stickler on Sept 4, 2011 11:09:14 GMT -5
No, it would not have been a gastard game. We would have been pretty upset with fubbles, but we would understand how it was not your fault. Buff and Ulla were perfectly correct in letting the Ragnarok fiasco stand. It was up to us as town to decide whether we trusted NAF and Mhaye and their mason claim. Which we blew on our own as town.
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Post by guiri on Sept 4, 2011 15:27:39 GMT -5
@ Meeko, which of Fubbles' results was extra? The one on JBG?
Did Captain Pinkies ever submit Night actions? Did he protect Fubbles at all?
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Post by sturmhauke on Sept 4, 2011 19:17:43 GMT -5
Why should a Mod prevent a train wreck? It is not the mod's job to prevent players from driving the train badly, only to make sure the tracks are laid correctly. Lying is part of the game.
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Meeko
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Post by Meeko on Sept 4, 2011 20:27:02 GMT -5
@ Meeko, which of Fubbles' results was extra? The one on JBG? Did Captain Pinkies ever submit Night actions? Did he protect Fubbles at all? I reported results to Fubbs on those he asked. What he in turn reported to the game, was not what what I told him. That is, he said that X was town, when I told him Y, Z and A were town. Yes, Captain Pinkies submitted night actions. IIRC, he protected Fubbs exclusively. --- It remains my opinion that at the time Fubbs said Deni was town, the tracks were no longer laid correctly; the train at that point was headed to Town CANT win land, not Town Wont win land. Hence, I stepped in.
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Post by special on Sept 4, 2011 21:17:13 GMT -5
@ Meeko, which of Fubbles' results was extra? The one on JBG? Did Captain Pinkies ever submit Night actions? Did he protect Fubbles at all? I reported results to Fubbs on those he asked. What he in turn reported to the game, was not what what I told him. That is, he said that X was town, when I told him Y, Z and A were town. Yes, Captain Pinkies submitted night actions. IIRC, he protected Fubbs exclusively. --- It remains my opinion that at the time Fubbs said Deni was town, the tracks were no longer laid correctly; the train at that point was headed to Town CANT win land, not Town Wont win land. Hence, I stepped in. I still think you should have asked him. Just because you couldn't understand his thinking doesn't mean that he didn't have some thinking going on. I'm not sure you'll understand. But by lying, he might have gotten certain reactions out of people. He might have even gotten the Scum to think he wasn't really the investigator. It seems like you had a way you wanted the game to play out and you forced the game you wanted it to go. It reminds me of a game I played on Facebook. We had lynched 1 out of the 3 Scum, and I vig killed a second one immediately. We also had masons confirmed and an confirmed investigation result. We had the game well in hand. The mods then decided to give the Scum a recruiting power lest the game end after Day 2. It sucked. In any case, I still maintain that you should have clarified with fubble privately instead of jumping in to 'correct' him. I also don't beleive you should have taken you kill orders in the order ecieved when you gave no indication that that was the rule. Your PM to Ginger said [qute]Each night you can shoot one of your many quils. If you are successful, you will kill you target. [/quote] It didn't say, if you get your kill in before you are killed your will kill your target. it seemed an arbitrary rule you decided on in the moment. You might not have liked it, but changing the rules as the game goes on is what a bastard game is.
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Post by sturmhauke on Sept 5, 2011 2:18:41 GMT -5
It remains my opinion that at the time Fubbs said Deni was town, the tracks were no longer laid correctly; the train at that point was headed to Town CANT win land, not Town Wont win land. Hence, I stepped in. In other words, you decided to try to force a certain game outcome once the game was in progress. The moderator MUST remain impartial and let the players screw up, else what's the point? I know if I was in this game I'd be pretty pissed off at this decision, regardless of which side I was on. I'll say it again: Mafia is a game of deception. If you remove the possibility of deception, you've fundamentally altered the game. Here's an example from the game I'm running on GB currently. Summary: Murder In Hurrdurrburg is a no-reveal game; live players only have a small piece of the picture. Askthepizzaguy had made one role claim earlier in the game; in the linked post, he makes a different role claim and explains his reasoning. I won't discuss the truth here since the game is ongoing, but if you want to PM me for more info I'll fill you in. Anyway, the point is that pizzaguy had a specific strategy in mind with all this. I have not stepped in with the true story, nor will I. I'm not playing the game, I won't take sides.
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Post by CatInASuit on Sept 5, 2011 3:11:28 GMT -5
Meeko - who did Fubbs investigate each Night? Meeko, Special Ed or even FCoD: As admins, Can I suggest unhiding the mason and scum boards and then removing the passwords for them, so everyone can see how way off the mark we all were
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Meeko
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Post by Meeko on Sept 5, 2011 8:54:10 GMT -5
Meeko - who did Fubbs investigate each Night? Meeko, Special Ed or even FCoD: As admins, Can I suggest unhiding the mason and scum boards and then removing the passwords for them, so everyone can see how way off the mark we all were I went looking to do this, didn't know where to find it, and I don't want to mess up a board that's not mine. Fubbs investigated each night. I would REALLY like Fubbs to comment on the entire situation, I _did_ ask him what was going on, and I was ..... he knew I was upset with him.
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