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Post by Rysto on Mar 3, 2012 22:29:36 GMT -5
Firstly, no player will have executive oversight of what the action PM to Storyteller actually says. I don't see this as a particularly unique feature of a leashed Vig -- there's always the possibility of a fake role claim. At least when a Vig claim is faked the Town usually gets evidence pretty quickly that the supposed Vig is lying(namely, a lack of corpses). Now that is a significantly bigger problem, although after a couple of nights where the kill misfires I'd hope that the Vig would learn to back off. That, actually, is entirely the point. I want the scum voting as often as possible. I want them to be forced to put more opinions on the record, and have actual consequences of their vote. How many times have we seen a scum player vote for a townie while stating suspicion of the leading scum vote getter? It's a very common way to have one's cake and eat it too for scum: try to advance your win condition by getting another mislynch while getting pro-Town points for being suspicious of scum. Now, that's certainly not a infallible way to play -- keep avoiding actually putting your vote down for scum and you'll get noticed -- but scum can't even do that without risking their teammate if there's a Vig kill attached to a second vote. Only when the vote is taken individually. I'm sure that I don't need to tell you that a player's entire voting record, taken as a whole, is critical for determining whether they are Town or scum. And if we vote on the Vig target, there's twice as much data in the voting record. I absolutely believe that would be a massive advantage for Town. Let me put it this way: in the JSexton pointing system, discretionary Vigs are worth 2 points. One measly point more than a vanilla Town. Mandatory Vigs are only worth 1.5. Now, how many points would you give Town if every Day, they lynched two players instead of one? I hope that you agree that would be worth a lot more than a bonus point! Yes, it's a 100% townie decision. But an individual townie (and I certainly include myself in this) is an idiot. What percentage of Days do you suppose the typically townie goes into dusk with their vote on scum? I would suspect that a townie is having a stupendous game if they hit 50%. If a Vig is batting .500? Then they've neither helped nor hurt the town -- every killed townie costs half a mislynch while every killed scum gains a mislynch(of course, if they hit the last scum the game is over). As far as I can see, even if a Vig has an awesome record they just shorten the game without buying anything for Town, and a shorter game means less data, which is a big advantage for the scum. The point of leashing the Vig is not to improve their accuracy. The point is to ensure that the Town is trading deaths for every last drop of information that they can squeeze out of it. Maximizing information is the path to victory for Town. And in all this, I haven't even talked about a very important thing: roleclaims! A Vig can just as easily take down a mason as scum. By voting on the Vig kill, we give power roles a chance to claim rather than die without even knowing they were in danger. That, IMO, is another significant advantage of leashing the Vig.
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Post by Chronos on Mar 3, 2012 22:58:22 GMT -5
Except that in the early game, the deaths cost more, since there's less information guiding them, and the information gained is less, since everyone will be voting close to randomly. A vig shooting early isn't accomplishing much besides shortening the game, which you just finished saying is a bad thing.
Meanwhile, another thought: Storyteller's games usually have individual role names and PMs for everyone, including the vanillas. And Scum have probably been provided with safe claims, to protect them against a mass-claim. But they may have fewer safe claims than they have members, and some of those safe claims are probably more believable than others. Now, normally, Scum would wait to see who needed the fake claims the most before settling on who's going to claim what. But what if we all posted some random snippet of information from our role PMs right now? Something like, the first letters of the words in the first sentence of our role background. That way, the Scum would be stuck with their lies right now, and couldn't optimize them later. We might even force a Scum to make up a fake claim from scratch right now (if they don't have enough given to them), before they have a chance to think about it.
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Post by Chronos on Mar 3, 2012 23:04:26 GMT -5
Oh, and to put my mouth where my money is, the acrostic of my first sentence is "ehamyjbyctnyaaub".
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Post by peekercpa on Mar 3, 2012 23:10:26 GMT -5
I do like the idea of using the vig as essentially a second lynch, and it's something that has often worked on the board where I normally play mafia/werewolf,* where the vig routinely is able to resolve the second wagon following days where a townie is lynched, thus (1) saving the town the trouble; (2) maximizing the information the town has to work with the next day when evaluating the wagons; and (3) taking a shot at someone who is probably >rand to be scum. I also come down on the side of believing that even an optional vig should be taking shots most nights, resolving uncleared players and reducing our process of elimination pool. That being said, I agree that the vig should make those decisions for his- or herself. When doing so, however, I hope that they feel free to take the thoughts/input/reads of trusted players (if they have any) into account, on the theory that multiple heads are better than one. Along those lines, I'm going to approach this game (as I typically approach most games) from the following perspective: First, that clearing players with some measure of confidence, if you can do so (and always on a provisional and dynamic basis), is just as valuable as finding players that you think are likely to be scum. Second, that, statistically speaking, most people are town, so I tend to put aside the reflexive suspicion at the beginning, at least to some extent, and default to a "let's all work together to try and solve this" attitude in my interactions with others. That is, I like to figure things out by interacting with people and seeing how they respond, but I don't go into any given interaction assuming that the other person is probably scum...because, in fact, they probably aren't, and assuming that they are can often be less constructive to my way of figuring stuff out. Just so you know where I'm coming from. *Preemptively calling detente on all culture clash wars. and gad i promise i am not picking on you but i just got full up with this discussion at this point. near as i can tell some folks want to use the vig to be a kind of secondary lynch. i mean really. town is so fucking incompetent that the primary lynch is perhaps not good so let's trust our secondary instincts? oh well i probably screwed the pooch on the first one so take my second choice. really? fuck that. if you were wrong on the first one the odds are that you are going to be right on the second one is only increased because you fucked the first one up.
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Meeko
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Post by Meeko on Mar 3, 2012 23:48:41 GMT -5
Chronos, you are Pinging the HELL out of me, already.<font style="font-size: 12px;"> Storyteller said in the rules that this may or may not be a no-vanilla game, and that's all we know. Well, that, and we apparently also now know that you're not vanilla. Given that this game is likely to have a large number of power roles (some of them probably rather weak), that's not as bad as it'd usually be, but still, giving away information like that is not a good thing. It doesn't help us any to know that you're not vanilla, but it does help Scum. Who on earth are you talking to here? What do I make of your first line? <font style="font-size: 12px;">Oh, and there are several reasons it's not a good idea to have an actual vote on whom the vig should kill. First of all, what if the Town ends up voting for the Vig emself? Obviously, the Vig won't and shouldn't suicide, but then, the fact that that person wasn't Night-killed would be a big clue to the Scum as to who e is. Second, even assuming we have a Vig of some sort (probably a safe assumption), we don't know the details of how es power works. E might have extra information we don't, or e might get only one shot all game and wants to save it for the right situation, or e might only be able to target a limited set of people, or whatever, which might make our vote foolish or irrelevant. Third, it provides a way for Scum to get people killed with less accountability: As long as we don't know the details of what killers we have, the Vig vote will always carry less weight than the official lynch vote. Why are you adding more fuel to the fire here? Didn't you start up the entire conversation on Vigs to begin with? An unwarranted conversation commented on, or passed on a number of players. You are here again, ready to stoke the fire again, so we can yet again have a time waster. And E what E the E hell E with E your E E E 's ? ! <font style="font-size: 12px;">Oh, and to put my mouth where my money is, the acrostic of my first sentence is "ehamyjbyctnyaaub". REALLY ? You are going to toss in a HANDSHAKE of all things into this ? <font style="font-size: 12px;"> Except that in the early game, the deaths cost more, since there's less information guiding them, and the information gained is less, since everyone will be voting close to randomly. A vig shooting early isn't accomplishing much besides shortening the game, which you just finished saying is a bad thing. Meanwhile, another thought: Storyteller's games usually have individual role names and PMs for everyone, including the vanillas. And Scum have probably been provided with safe claims, to protect them against a mass-claim. But they may have fewer safe claims than they have members, and some of those safe claims are probably more believable than others. Now, normally, Scum would wait to see who needed the fake claims the most before settling on who's going to claim what. But what if we all posted some random snippet of information from our role PMs right now? Something like, the first letters of the words in the first sentence of our role background. That way, the Scum would be stuck with their lies right now, and couldn't optimize them later. We might even force a Scum to make up a fake claim from scratch right now (if they don't have enough given to them), before they have a chance to think about it. Yeah, apparently you really want to do this handshake thing. You want to waste time on handshaking after I thought our group of players have more or less moved on to games that are hand shake proof. To say nothing of the fact that you want to Dodge, and make others Dodge Rystos idea That at first glance seems to ring true. If scum has to lie in order to win, wouldn't Rysto's idea put those lies into a pressure cooker? But No, you want to dodge this, and send the game into the Handshaking game or a Claiming game.
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Post by Chronos on Mar 4, 2012 0:26:27 GMT -5
That was in response to Idle Thoughts saying that he thought there weren't any vanillas in this game. Him saying that is implicitly a claim that he himself is not vanilla. Yes, I did. Is there some reason why continuing a conversation one started would be scummy? I started that discussion because the Town needs something to get discussion started, and there's not much else to talk about at the beginning other than speculating on the setup and considering hypotheticals. The "e", meanwhile, is a Spivak pronoun. I use it in place of "he" or "she" if I don't know the gender of the person in question. It's not really a handshake-- That's an attempt to confirm the vanilla players, based on them having the same PM. That won't work here, since presumably, everyone has different PMs. And I certainly don't expect my idea to break the game wide open: You're right, game designers are good enough now that there isn't likely to be any trick that will break a game wide open. I do, however, think that it will help us a little, and won't hurt. If you think it will hurt, give reasons why it will, and we can debate those. And what do you mean by "dodge Rysto's idea"? I think that we shouldn't leash the Vig because I think that, on net, that hurts the Town more than it helps. Lots of other folks think that, too. In fact, even Rysto himself admitted when he proposed it that he knew the idea was controversial.
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Post by Chronos on Mar 4, 2012 0:27:03 GMT -5
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Post by special on Mar 4, 2012 0:56:10 GMT -5
In 1987, I played ghosts in the graveyard with the beastie boys.
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Post by special on Mar 4, 2012 0:57:11 GMT -5
No
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Post by special on Mar 4, 2012 0:57:32 GMT -5
Sleep
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Post by special on Mar 4, 2012 0:57:51 GMT -5
Til
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Post by special on Mar 4, 2012 0:58:12 GMT -5
Brooklyn
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Post by special on Mar 4, 2012 0:59:30 GMT -5
Vote me chronos. I edited.
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Post by SBrOwn on Mar 4, 2012 1:10:13 GMT -5
It's not really a handshake-- That's an attempt to confirm the vanilla players, based on them having the same PM. That won't work here, since presumably, everyone has different PMs. And I certainly don't expect my idea to break the game wide open: You're right, game designers are good enough now that there isn't likely to be any trick that will break a game wide open. I do, however, think that it will help us a little, and won't hurt. If you think it will hurt, give reasons why it will, and we can debate those. You said earlier that you believe the bad guys or "scum" may be provided with their own fake roles/claims. Now I've been looking thru the last game a lil' bit, and didn't they basically have their own fake Role PMs and all? So the claiming thing doesn't really seem to work out- unless you believe that the scum haven't already divided up those sorts of things already. That said- Story said "If you have access to outside boards, you may post to them on any subject at any time." So why can't they just post there, divy up the roles, and then post the sentences or such?
-When I first read your suggestion, I thought it was very odd/suspicious- as if we all provided clues to who we are, then it'd be easier for roles that needed to target specific people to have access to them. -But I did like your sentence letter thing, because I guess that didn't provide information/flavor about the roles/characters. But it's still weird, because again- are you assuming that the scum cannot make up roles so early? -That is my argument why it's not a great idea. Also, it can hurt, because what if scum DO have the roles planned out, or are planning them out- then it would behoove them to use this to their advantage- hence your offering of the initial information- I feel like you're trying to make me trust you more. Ya know?
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Post by SBrOwn on Mar 4, 2012 1:14:37 GMT -5
As for the Vig talk... I dunno my thoughts on this yet. It's all really confusing with the terms and double votes and all. Not sure how i feel about that yet. My initial thought is couldn't another player with a killing role try to "fake" being a vig by doing what the town says to gain credibility? Like serial killers or other PFK type roles? I mean, yeah- votes out there are nice, but if the Vig doesn't listen to the town, but an SK does... are we going to end up trusting an SK more "because they followed orders?" --I think each role should have to kinda explain their own actions and why they chose to do the things they did. That's my position on the whole thing right for now- it seems easier and less complicated.
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Post by Chronos on Mar 4, 2012 1:37:07 GMT -5
Vote me chronos. I edited. You know what? I will. Not just because of the editing, but because you seem to just want to make noise, without actually contributing to the game. I don't know why you want to get lynched, but since you do, I'll be happy to oblige. Vote special edAnd SBrOwn, whether you trust me personally or not is your own business. I could be Town suggesting that because I think it's a good idea, or I could be Scum suggesting it because I think it looks like something a Townie might do. I am in fact Town, but I have no way of proving that, so I don't expect you to take my word for that. But then, even if I were Scum, it might still be a good idea-- Evaluate the idea on its own merits. But the reason I think it might do some good is that there's the possibility that Scum might have fake PMs provided, but not enough of them: If there are, say, five Scum, they might have only been provided with four fake PMs. If we implement my plan, then one of the Scum might have to come up with a false claim that might not be safe, or try to contort a later claim to fit with the posted acrostic. And even if they have enough false claims, they still have to commit to who's using which one, which takes some flexibility away from them.
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Meeko
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Post by Meeko on Mar 4, 2012 2:11:01 GMT -5
@ Chronos : It just seems like you are trying anything and everything to, as you put it, make noise. A lot of noise, and no signal. I can't shake the notion that you are just trying to buy time with the short list of Day 1 topics, thrown in all together at once. To that end, even commenting on why a handshake is bad, is bad.
You say it's not really a handshake. I'm not sure what it is then. It's still a tail, even if you call it a leg.
Chronos : In short, I think you are making noise.
Which is a moot point given what Ed is doing.
Vote Spec. Ed
At least it's not random Wiki articles.
I would like an explanation Ed.
Vote Early, Vote Often.
Unless Ed has set us up the bomb, and all our mafia play are belong to him ?
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Mar 4, 2012 2:16:59 GMT -5
I don't find a handshake-like proposal suspicious in and of itself, but I do kinda think proposing it and then actually going through with it in virtually the same post with no discussion from anyone else is either suicidal or shit-stirring, both of which I do kinda find suspicious.
Vote Chronos[/color] for now. Combined with a pretty baseless vote for Ed it is enough for me.
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Post by special on Mar 4, 2012 2:27:42 GMT -5
@ Chronos : It just seems like you are trying anything and everything to, as you put it, make noise. A lot of noise, and no signal. I can't shake the notion that you are just trying to buy time with the short list of Day 1 topics, thrown in all together at once. To that end, even commenting on why a handshake is bad, is bad. You say it's not really a handshake. I'm not sure what it is then. It's still a tail, even if you call it a leg. Chronos : In short, I think you are making noise.
Which is a moot point given what Ed is doing. Vote Spec. Ed
At least it's not random Wiki articles. I would like an explanation Ed.
Vote Early, Vote Often. Unless Ed has set us up the bomb, and all our mafia play are belong to him ? I've got an explanation. Fuck you, motherfucker. Now, put some thought into something and you might get something better. Nice to see Chronos taking the easy path though. Scum wouldn't do that would they?
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Post by Pollux Oil on Mar 4, 2012 2:27:53 GMT -5
That was in response to Idle Thoughts saying that he thought there weren't any vanillas in this game. Him saying that is implicitly a claim that he himself is not vanilla. Or it could be Idle stirring the pot as scum/PFK, trying to out people as vanilla/not vanilla. Or he could be vanilla and acting not vanilla to try and get scum to target him. Or he could have just not paid attention to the rules. All things are possible. It's not really a handshake-- That's an attempt to confirm the vanilla players, based on them having the same PM. That won't work here, since presumably, everyone has different PMs. And I certainly don't expect my idea to break the game wide open: You're right, game designers are good enough now that there isn't likely to be any trick that will break a game wide open. I do, however, think that it will help us a little, and won't hurt. If you think it will hurt, give reasons why it will, and we can debate those. I don't think it helps us at all. As stated already by SBrown, anybody with other board access can talk whenever they want, too. That means by the time the idea is sussed out and people actually agree to do it, the scum will have had plenty of time to get their notes together. I'm also not sure why you preemptively decided to do your own thing before anybody else discussed it. You don't propose an idea for the masses and then immediately do it before feedback. "Hey guys, I think we should mass name claim. I'm X!" It doesn't work like that. Unless Ed has set us up the bomb, and all our mafia play are belong to him ? I don't think I've ever played with you before, and I can already tell this is going to be fun. Ed has a new playstyle, in which he doesn't give a crap about what he posts. 2-to-1 odds he responds to at least one post before the end of the Day with nothing more than a 'Bah!' And he'll refuse to give an explanation beyond that. It's not a scum tell anymore because he's done it every game for like the last two or three. And I believe he's been town every time. Or he's drunk. There's that, too.
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Post by special on Mar 4, 2012 2:28:56 GMT -5
PS, Chronos voted me because I said "til" twice and edited the second one to say "Brooklyn"
Solid pro-Town play from him, eh?
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Post by special on Mar 4, 2012 2:30:20 GMT -5
I'm very drunk.
But on the plus-Town side, I didn't take my car, and took a cab home. Surely Scum wouldn't do that.
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Post by special on Mar 4, 2012 2:37:04 GMT -5
PS, I fully expect Meeko to flip out because I called him a motherfucker.
Honestly, I don't know if he's ever had sex with a woman, let alone a woman who already has children. But, I do so enjoy seeing him flip out, even if we are on the same team.
Love ya, Meeko, now go get me a beer. Thanks.
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Post by Nanook on Mar 4, 2012 3:19:02 GMT -5
There's a third possibility you missed Pollux. While I seriously doubt that Story lifted things entirely from the last version of this game, I fully expect that he reused individual elements.
In the last game, there was a PFK the Joker. (I know Pollux knows this, but others don't.) He was a Day kill SK with a restriction on who he could kill and was played by Santo Rugger. His restriction was that he could only target people with less posts in any given day than he himself had. IIRC, the original concept was that this would act as a corrective measure on low volume posters. Santo was going to have none of that though, and had a huge post count all the Days he was alive. And he would do things like Ed is, using multiple posts for things that could have just as easily been in one. Fluffing some. Commenting on everything.
Do I think Ed is the Joker, PFK Day SK? No. But I wouldn't be surprised if he had a power restriction based on post count either.
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Post by Inner Stickler on Mar 4, 2012 3:29:37 GMT -5
I see how it is. You post drunk and it's all candy and flowers. I post drunk and I get lynched for it.
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Mar 4, 2012 3:44:09 GMT -5
...a power restriction based on post count... ...would be a posting restriction by my reckoning, of which Story has said there are none.
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Post by Dirx on Mar 4, 2012 4:09:23 GMT -5
I would encourage people to make recommendations to the vig, but would leave the vig free to do whatever the hell he felt like. Recommendations to the vig are just additional data points that might be helpful at some point to the town. I wholeheaertedly agree with this. I'm not a fan of telling the Vig exactly what to do any more than I am of doing that for any other role. It works in certain situations, but never as a blanket procedure. But yes, please feel free to chime in on who you think ought to be vigged--it's more evidence that everyone can use. I do like the idea of using the vig as essentially a second lynch, and it's something that has often worked on the board where I normally play mafia/werewolf,* where the vig routinely is able to resolve the second wagon following days where a townie is lynched, thus (1) saving the town the trouble; (2) maximizing the information the town has to work with the next day when evaluating the wagons; and (3) taking a shot at someone who is probably >rand to be scum. I also come down on the side of believing that even an optional vig should be taking shots most nights, resolving uncleared players and reducing our process of elimination pool. I also think is a good idea (but, obviously, should not be the sole criteria for the Vig's selection). It definitely worked out for me in the Mafia in Wonderland game, though I didn't last long enough to try it a second time... Actually, sometimes multiple heads aren't better. Even if someone is town-aligned, they could be playing completely stupid and/or be completely off-base as to who is scum and who isn't. The Vig should honestly just use their power at their own discretion. Any sort of direction or recommendations from the rest of the group, regardless of alignment, are ultimately fruitless unless they're backed by things such as confirmed investigations, etc.(underlining mine) I strongly disagree. How, exactly, is having players voice an opinion on who should be killed a fruitless thing? It may not help the Vig directly too much, but it sure as hell helps the town as a whole, for both vigging and lynching considerations. ...would be a posting restriction by my reckoning, of which Story has said there are none. Eh, I'd probably split hairs and say that no, it's not technically a posting restriction. Power restriction based on posts is still a power restriction, since that's what it limits. It's not a posting restriction unless you want to treat it that way. You don't have change your posting style, after all--you can always just choose an easier target.
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Mar 4, 2012 4:27:46 GMT -5
I beg to differ and don't think there are any hairs to be split. For some players, needing to either increase or decrease their posting volume (which is where this falls solidly in the 'posting restriction' bucket in my book) in order to use their powers on their most desired targets can have a major influence on their play and how the other players interpret their actions.
And I take Story as being a man of his word that there are no such restrictions in the game. You can worry about it and assume that it is there if you want to, I have no real reason to hold such opinions against you or anyone else, at least not yet.
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Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Mar 4, 2012 4:29:45 GMT -5
NETA phrasing nit pick re-write:
You can worry about it and allow that it could be there if you want to, I have no real reason to hold such opinions against you or anyone else, at least not yet.
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Meeko
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Post by Meeko on Mar 4, 2012 8:26:05 GMT -5
I did actually consider that as an option. However, I still think you need some more coffee yet.
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