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Post by Silver Jan on Mar 4, 2012 8:36:59 GMT -5
I see how it is. You post drunk and it's all candy and flowers. I post drunk and I get lynched for it. I really laughed out loud at this one If I post drunk I get lynched, if I post sober I get lynched because I am not playing the way I usually do lol. I think the Vig, if there is one, should do as he or she pleases and not have to feel any pressure from other players. I really don't like mass claims, to me it takes the fun out of the game. Everyone might just as well copy and paste their role in their first post and then all we'd have to is to compare them. That's just my opinion though. I also know that scum have been caught out that way. I don't think I have ever seen Ed swear like that, it gave me quite a shock
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Post by peekercpa on Mar 4, 2012 8:40:11 GMT -5
Or he's drunk. There's that, too. <snipped> this is where my money goes. also, did i miss something? is sbrown already dead?
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Meeko
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Post by Meeko on Mar 4, 2012 8:40:25 GMT -5
Then again, is posting drunk Pro-Town?
Talk about a "WIFOM" moment.
-------
Pollux Oil : While I did go for the meme, I was seriously asking if Ed is a Bomb type character. That is, one that can do something on those that voted for him.
A power that lets someone kill based on post count? Some people have all the luck.
But no, I think Ed is simply drunk. I think. I hope.
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Post by peekercpa on Mar 4, 2012 8:47:43 GMT -5
also, just a general observation. story is a devious shit as a player and even more so as an og. to think that remotely there is any possibility that handshakes or mass claims, at least for the time being, could somehow "break" the game is laughable.
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Meeko
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Post by Meeko on Mar 4, 2012 9:09:56 GMT -5
Snipped And SBrOwn, whether you trust me personally or not is your own business. I could be Town suggesting that because I think it's a good idea, or I could be Scum suggesting it because I think it looks like something a Townie might do. I am in fact Town, but I have no way of proving that, so I don't expect you to take my word for that. [/size] But then, even if I were Scum, it might still be a good idea-- Evaluate the idea on its own merits. Snipped [/quote] Bolded and ""embiggened"" [You guys don't know how hard it is for me to resist a "Holy X Batman!" comment here.] So, Chronos is already claiming alignment. A tough nut to crack, this. I still think that Chronos is making noise here, un-provoked comments and what not. He made the comment that he wouldn't use his vote analysis program [That IIRC, at one iteration, calculated Noise to signal] which in hindsight [and which Chronos offers self admittedly] is ITSELF is only noise --- but I don't think the replacement is that much better. Has there ever been a case where a player was so-over eager to prove townliness and they were telling the truth? [Wait a second... Ok, take Meeko out of that equation, and ask again.] Then again, Could the ditching of the vote analysis program be a zugzwang for the anti-town Chronos? Would he ditch it, to gain town cred, then conclude that he actually needed the noise that the program it, itself provided? If scum thought to stall game play .... what are they seeking to achieve? Is it in and of itself enough, or does town need to actively comment among the stalling topics?
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Post by guiri on Mar 4, 2012 9:26:47 GMT -5
I am personally of the opinion that the Town should vote each Day on the Vig target, just like they do for the lynch. Would you recommend this approach for any other Town power? I do like the idea of using the vig as essentially a second lynch, and it's something that has often worked on the board where I normally play mafia/werewolf,* where the vig routinely is able to resolve the second wagon following days where a townie is lynched, thus (1) saving the town the trouble; (2) maximizing the information the town has to work with the next day when evaluating the wagons; and (3) taking a shot at someone who is probably >rand to be scum. On this other board, do you usually have a single vote per player or multiple votes? With single votes, do you think a whole new vote would provide more information than simply picking off the second highest vote getter? Second, that, statistically speaking, most people are town, so I tend to put aside the reflexive suspicion at the beginning, at least to some extent, and default to a "let's all work together to try and solve this" attitude in my interactions with others. If this game's setup is anything like the original version of this game (12/13 Town vs 6 scum + 5/6 PFK), do you think this approach will work here? The Vig should honestly just use their power at their own discretion. Any sort of direction or recommendations from the rest of the group, regardless of alignment, are ultimately fruitless unless they're backed by things such as confirmed investigations, etc. Yeah, but just in case there's a Vig and in case the player is not experienced, there's no harm in suggesting strategies or targets. Oh, and to put my mouth where my money is, the acrostic of my first sentence is "ehamyjbyctnyaaub". Given the batman universe, aren't acrostics decipherable? Couldn't the sentence be used to identify your role?
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Post by Rysto on Mar 4, 2012 10:05:46 GMT -5
Then again, is posting drunk Pro-Town? You guys are intent on pushing all my buttons Day One, aren't you? The answer to this question depends on Ed's alignment. If Ed is Town, then his actions here certainly don't look townie. But if he's not Town, then he's piling up so much negative attention right now that in the end, he's hurting his team more than the noise is hurting town. However, I find it hard to believe that Ed would just do this for no reason. I honestly can't believe that he's picked up two votes so far when he's literally begging for them. If he continues like this I'd be more than happy to see the Vig step in, but I have a feeling that he's got some kind of power that activates by being voted for, so let's not fall for this gambit yet. If he's still carrying on in a couple of Days and we don't seem to have Vig, then it makes sense to talk about lynching him.
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Post by BillMc on Mar 4, 2012 10:21:41 GMT -5
<font style="font-size: 12px;"> <font style="font-size: 12px;"> Storyteller said in the rules that this may or may not be a no-vanilla game, and that's all we know. Well, that, and we apparently also now know that you're not vanilla. Given that this game is likely to have a large number of power roles (some of them probably rather weak), that's not as bad as it'd usually be, but still, giving away information like that is not a good thing. It doesn't help us any to know that you're not vanilla, but it does help Scum. Or he could be vanilla trying to hide in the power-crowd, or vanilla positioning for fake power claim, or trying to get folk to ignore him by possibly claiming vanilla. You've given Idle some heat for responding - but seem to have let Plankton off for asking the initial question. It could be read as Plankton asking of this was an all-power game or not. It's a null tell at best.
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Post by BillMc on Mar 4, 2012 10:22:12 GMT -5
You said earlier that you believe the bad guys or "scum" may be provided with their own fake roles/claims. Why purple text? Claiming 3rd party?
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Post by BillMc on Mar 4, 2012 10:23:19 GMT -5
Meanwhile, another thought: Storyteller's games usually have individual role names and PMs for everyone, including the vanillas. And Scum have probably been provided with safe claims, to protect them against a mass-claim. But they may have fewer safe claims than they have members, and some of those safe claims are probably more believable than others. Now, normally, Scum would wait to see who needed the fake claims the most before settling on who's going to claim what. But what if we all posted some random snippet of information from our role PMs right now? Something like, the first letters of the words in the first sentence of our role background. That way, the Scum would be stuck with their lies right now, and couldn't optimize them later. We might even force a Scum to make up a fake claim from scratch right now (if they don't have enough given to them), before they have a chance to think about it. Story has already said there are no posting restrictions, you can quote any PM you like. Given that, I think it would be poor form to expect anyone who needed a fake PM to have to write one in the same style as Story. So I really cant see any pro-town motivation for your proposal, nor why you unilaterally decided we should go forward with it.
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Post by Rysto on Mar 4, 2012 10:24:23 GMT -5
Would you recommend this approach for any other Town power? Absolutely not. There are a lot of reasons for that: first, the Vig as we play it is typically useless and can been actively harmful to town, unlike other roles. Second, the consequences of a Vig kill are immediate and very bad for scum, which means that they would think twice before bussing a teammate. Third, the results of a Vig kill are public knowledge(as is the alignment of the victim), which is critical information in making sense of the voting record. Fourth, if the targets of other powers is public knowledge, it can be quite easy for scum to work around the power: investigated townies can be killed, the doctor's protect target can be avoided, etc. Absent a scum doctor or bus driver, both of which are very rare roles, there's not a lot scum can to avoid a Vig kill. I can't speak to how it actually works on this other board, but IMO a second vote would be better. More votes means more data for town to work with. On the other hand, understanding the alignment of all the major lynch contenders makes analyzing the voting record much easier, but IMO that can't possibly overcome the informational advantages of having twice as much data in the vote record. I think that I'd have to see both systems in action to really decide, though. I'm quite confident that this setup is no where near the original. Arkham Knights was a blast, but let's face it, it really wasn't balanced. 1 mislynch in 10 Days is an incredibly high bar for Town to try to overcome.
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Post by storyteller0910 on Mar 4, 2012 10:46:24 GMT -5
Story, is color just color or would careful reading possibly reveal information about the game? Would knowledge of the batman universe be helpful? I may sneak in tiny, tiny hints here and there to amuse myself, but nothing significant. Color is just color. Important game information will always be revealed in a clear and unambiguous fashion and clarified as necessary.
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Post by special on Mar 4, 2012 10:54:35 GMT -5
Then again, is posting drunk Pro-Town? You guys are intent on pushing all my buttons Day One, aren't you? The answer to this question depends on Ed's alignment. If Ed is Town, then his actions here certainly don't look townie. But if he's not Town, then he's piling up so much negative attention right now that in the end, he's hurting his team more than the noise is hurting town. However, I find it hard to believe that Ed would just do this for no reason. I honestly can't believe that he's picked up two votes so far when he's literally begging for them. If he continues like this I'd be more than happy to see the Vig step in, but I have a feeling that he's got some kind of power that activates by being voted for, so let's not fall for this gambit yet. If he's still carrying on in a couple of Days and we don't seem to have Vig, then it makes sense to talk about lynching him. I did have a role in a storyteller game where my power was activated by votes on me. But I don't this game. And I didn't have a secret reason for my posts. I was drunk and thought I was being funny. I'm not and don't anymore
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Meeko
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Post by Meeko on Mar 4, 2012 11:01:22 GMT -5
Then again, is posting drunk Pro-Town? You guys are intent on pushing all my buttons Day One, aren't you? The answer to this question depends on Ed's alignment. If Ed is Town, then his actions here certainly don't look townie. But if he's not Town, then he's piling up so much negative attention right now that in the end, he's hurting his team more than the noise is hurting town. However, I find it hard to believe that Ed would just do this for no reason. I honestly can't believe that he's picked up two votes so far when he's literally begging for them. If he continues like this I'd be more than happy to see the Vig step in, but I have a feeling that he's got some kind of power that activates by being voted for, so let's not fall for this gambit yet. If he's still carrying on in a couple of Days and we don't seem to have Vig, then it makes sense to talk about lynching him. Assume that Ed has a bomb type power. Can we trust a Pro-town Vig, if we have one, to take him out? If we can't, is voting for Ed then the safest course of action? [ ] Aren't we, to some extent stuck voting for a bomb, if the Vig won't comply to our wishes?
Let us assume Rysto and Ed are scum. Would Rysto feel the need to come in and try to remove heat off of Ed? How does that work if Ed is indeed a Bomb?
Again, I can't see past a screwed if you do, screwed if you don't situation on voting for Ed if he is a Bomb.
---
Assume that Ed is not a Bomb.
Rysto, would you vote on Ed in that case, based on his posts so far?
You have a valid point, that Ed is literally asking for votes. How is this different from a player Voting for himself? I tried that once*, and got heat. I don't see much difference.
*And it removed any lingering doubt I had contemplating if Mafia and Haggle were related to each other. The answer was a resounding NO.
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Meeko
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Post by Meeko on Mar 4, 2012 11:06:28 GMT -5
And I didn't have a secret reason for my posts. I was drunk and thought I was being funny. I'm not and don't anymore Not to come down as a parent here, Ed, but will you attempt to post drunk to this game again? It makes for a lot of noise. I don't find drunk posting to be pro-town.
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Post by peekercpa on Mar 4, 2012 11:22:20 GMT -5
And I didn't have a secret reason for my posts. I was drunk and thought I was being funny. I'm not and don't anymore Not to come down as a parent here, Ed, but will you attempt to post drunk to this game again? It makes for a lot of noise. I don't find drunk posting to be pro-town. fuck that. more shit has been spilled as a result of drunk posting than i can shake a stick at. drunk posting is oft times indicative of the true nature of one's inclinations than carefully posited sober posting.
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Post by special on Mar 4, 2012 11:24:15 GMT -5
And I didn't have a secret reason for my posts. I was drunk and thought I was being funny. I'm not and don't anymore Not to come down as a parent here, Ed, but will you attempt to post drunk to this game again? It makes for a lot of noise. I don't find drunk posting to be pro-town. I very well might. But if you truly thought I was Scum, you'd want me to post drunk. See it got me votes, and I'm probably more likely to slip. Look at Inner, he posted drunk as Scum and got lynched for it. But, now that I'm sober, let me see if I understand the reasons for your vote: 1. You are suspicious of Chronos for "making noise" 2. You and Chronos think I am just making noise in the thread because I posted lyrics to a Beastie Boys song while at a bar, and then poked at Chronos and his very silly publicly stated intent to policy vote. 3. Somewhere in the deep, dark recesses of your colon, you dug out the idea that I might be a Scum bomb, hoping to get lynched on Day 1 so I could explode. 4. This idea fascinated you and you talked yourself into valuing it greatly. I assume this is because I asked for a vote. Something you took as me trying to get myself lynched. 5. My continued rambling after you and Chronos voted for me has only solidified for you of my Scummy explosiveness, which you intend to discuss at length. 6. Because this idea has become fully developed for you, you must hold on to the conclusion that I am literally trying to be voted. (I must concede this point is technically true, I did literally tell Chronos to vote for me.) Perhaps at this point, you should take a poll and see how many people actually believe that I was wanted to get lynched, and how many people think I was poking at Chronos in my own loveable style. OK, maybe leave out the loveable part. *Edited to fix a type in the bolded word* and to annoy others. Maybe mostly to annoy others. Oh so dastardly noisy!
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Post by peekercpa on Mar 4, 2012 11:25:04 GMT -5
neta: especially when you get one-eyed drunk. then you periodically get the random intended for secret forum but posted in main thread observation. those are always yucks and chucks.
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Post by Chronos on Mar 4, 2012 11:32:48 GMT -5
However, I find it hard to believe that Ed would just do this for no reason. I honestly can't believe that he's picked up two votes so far when he's literally begging for them. If he continues like this I'd be more than happy to see the Vig step in, but I have a feeling that he's got some kind of power that activates by being voted for, so let's not fall for this gambit yet. If he's still carrying on in a couple of Days and we don't seem to have Vig, then it makes sense to talk about lynching him. Yeah, I considered that possibility. But the way I see it, voting for him is still the right move, as long as we don't all pile on: If he's Scum or PFK with a power like that, well, we're going to have to deal with him eventually, might as well be now. If he's a Townie or a benign third party who intends to help Town, then voting for him is helping a friend out. And sure, we might have a Vig who can take care of him for us, but it's kind of a cop-out to avoid voting for someone who's acting scummy just to leave the problem to a vig we may or may not have who may or may not even be able to kill him. And yes, I did see his explanation that he was just drunk. For seven hours straight, though? He was posting garbage in his first posts of the game, too. And even now that he's sobered up, he still isn't actually contributing. As for my posting my acrostic before the idea had been discussed: This isn't like a mass role-claim, or even a name-claim, where there can be both benefits and drawbacks, and so it makes sense to weigh both. There really aren't any drawbacks to this, and so it would have just been wishy-washy for me to suggest it and not do it. And yes, as I have acknowledged before, Scum probably do have false PMs provided by Storyteller. They still might not have enough of them, and they'd still have to commit earlier than they might like to who has which one.
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Post by special on Mar 4, 2012 11:53:56 GMT -5
So voting for me is the right thing as long as lots of people don't?
Because if I'm anti-town vote-powered then I need to be dealt with, and if I'm pro-town vote-powered then I need to be powered up.
That seems confusing
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Post by Inner Stickler on Mar 4, 2012 11:57:16 GMT -5
Believe me, this is Ed's new playstyle. It's annoying but he doesn't seem inclined to change.
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Post by special on Mar 4, 2012 11:58:27 GMT -5
NETA
I'm sorry my posting isn't what you'd like. But you've played enough with me, do you truly think I'm Scum because of it? Or is it just not what you want and you're going to punish me with votes until I conform?
I think the later tends to be your style as you appear to like patterns and "solving the game." I'm different. I like to have fun and hopefully win too.
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Post by special on Mar 4, 2012 12:00:35 GMT -5
Believe me, this is Ed's new playstyle. It's annoying but he doesn't seem inclined to change. *sniff* I'm annoying? *sniff*
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Post by Chronos on Mar 4, 2012 12:02:17 GMT -5
This isn't a playstyle. It's a lack-of-play style. He's lurking, just with a high post volume.
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Post by Nanook on Mar 4, 2012 12:06:32 GMT -5
I believe it was an earlier Story game where there were in fact restrictions on the false claims given to scum. The Marvel game I think? It was something like one fully fleshed out claim and a couple of definitely don't exist in the game already names. I think that's less likely to be the case this time around, but it's not out of the question. Still, posting acrostics or cyphers or codes or any other crap like that is not what I consider to be a part of this game.
Cookies, I disagree with you. A posting restriction is something like what Drain (fake)claimed in the last game. Do this or else. A power restriction is par for the course in a game of this nature. And really? "I'm not going to vote you for bringing this up...for now!" A little over the top reaction don't you think?
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Post by special on Mar 4, 2012 12:07:27 GMT -5
This isn't a playstyle. It's a lack-of-play style. He's lurking, just with a high post volume. No, I'm engaging in discussion. You are the one who wants to play by applying strict policy votes and pattern analysis of role PMs while seemingly avoiding discussion of motivation. So your vote is an early Day 1 lurker vote now?
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Post by gnarlycharlie on Mar 4, 2012 12:17:43 GMT -5
i see the fireworks have already started. my thoughts on some of the topics:
1. Vig kills
i believe the Vig should target whomever s/he thinks is best to kill. other players can suggest and perhaps that's a good thing because it's another data point when their suggested player is killed whether by the vig, by lynch or by NK, and flips a certain way.
as for the idea of Gadarene that the vig should target the second highest votegetter, that method works well on his board and can be an option for the vig to consider. a drawback of this method is if the vig consistently uses this method, it is subject to manipulation.
personally, i think the vig should kill absentee and lurking players and let town find scum among the active players. but if s/he really thinks a certain player is scummy, screw all these options and go for it.
2. Chronos' proposal
i don't find anything wrong with the idea. i don't see it as amass claim or handshaking. if all scum have cover roles then no loss there but if they have limited ones, they are forced to 'use' them and make additional ones which may cause a slip or inconsistency to occur. the real drawback is that everyone or perhaps majority have to go along. otherwise it's useless.
3. Special Ed's posts
i've played with him several times including after his playstyle change. it seems something he does regularly both as Town and scum. i think it's a null tell.
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Post by peekercpa on Mar 4, 2012 12:19:51 GMT -5
Yeah, I considered that possibility. But the way I see it, voting for him is still the right move, as long as we don't all pile on: If he's Scum or PFK with a power like that, well, we're going to have to deal with him eventually, might as well be now. If he's a Townie or a benign third party who intends to help Town, then voting for him is helping a friend out. And sure, we might have a Vig who can take care of him for us, but it's kind of a cop-out to avoid voting for someone who's acting scummy just to leave the problem to a vig we may or may not have who may or may not even be able to kill him. egad. and i think ed addressed this but .... so we should vote him as long as it's not a "pile on". we've got to deal with eventually but just not in a majority situation? right? but it's scummy not to vote him? right? jeebuz, that's convoluted even for me. vote chronos. p.s. this is in no way meant to endorse anything ed may or may not be trying to accomplish 'cause it just looks like a hammered townie wailing away at the keyboard.
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Post by Silver Jan on Mar 4, 2012 12:32:06 GMT -5
I was rather confused by Chronos' post too. We need to deal with Ed sooner rather than later but don't all vote for him. If you have a vote on Ed you obviously think he's scummy so why don't you want people to vote for him?
At the moment I don't find Ed particularly scummy, that could change but right now I think he is just playing in his new style.
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Post by Dirx on Mar 4, 2012 12:36:24 GMT -5
Yeah, someone who hasn't played in longish time chiming in on Ed's posts here: It's not a new posting style, and it's certainly not a lack of tactic or whatever. It's fundamentally very similar to peeker's, in that it stirs up shit, and then he picks out details in the aftermath. It works for him. Whether he's town or scum or whatever remains to be seen, and his style is a null-tell, as gnarlycharlie says.
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