Day Two

[sinjin]

Just so there's no confusion about why I voted for Pleo earlier in the day I'm going to include all of the reasons I voted him originally and why I'm leaving my vote on him. I didn't post all this originally because I thought his circular logic was a total scum tell. But obviously others think not.

So from his first
post on his voting method from toDay:

I want to make a first cut on who to vote for. I think scum are less likely to vote for Colonists on a Day One vote then Colonists are. Colonists have no real information to go on and so vote essentially randomly.

Here he misinterprets how colonists vote. We don't vote randomly, we vote blindly. I didn't see anybody casting a vote for electrocution using a magic 8 ball on day one.

That's nine players, out of twenty-one remaining, about half. I'm inclined to toss off the top post-counts from Day One, since they tend to receive a lot of heat, especially on the first Day. From my list of nine, I'll remove Santo Rugger, Roosh, and Diomedes, who posted significantly more than the next highest on my list (24 vs 16).

He removes three folks from his list of those who voted for a non-confirmed colonist because they posted a lot and "they tend to receive a lot of heat." However Santo Rugger and Roosh didn't receive any heat at all on day one as I recall. Dio did get some for his crazy voting but not what I would call a lot. This is just a specious reason to remove folks from his goofy list. Not one of them had a vote on them at Day one's end.

Then later toDay even after he's been called on his logic fallacy he
posted this in response to mhaye:

Ok, that makes your objection more sensible. I withdraw my suspicion on that particular point. That leaves you at the same suspicion score as kassia and diggit. If my vote remains a singleton on you, I will likely move it to one of them before the end of the day.

But kassia and diggit both voted for Pleo on day one!!!!! So they shouldn't have been on his non-confirmed colonist voter hit list in the first place.

And finally what CaptainKlutz's posted rings true to me:

Now, imagine that Pleo is scum with the special ability to bomb one player. Then the natural town role to false claim is that of a one shot vigilante that uses a bomb. My concern is that, since it is certain to kill, this bomb would be particularly powerful in scum's hands. For example, a Doctor's protection will be ineffective. Or it could be used to kill a resurrected pro town replicant. Hmmm, this sounds a bit too powerful and unbalancing, so that's one argument against it, but it's something I am certainly going to keep in mind.

[storyteller0910]

PAGE SEVEN VOTE COUNT

Diomedes (7) - drainbead, atarus, Parzival, CometotheDarkSideWeHaveCookies, kassia, Tragic, episodeofblonde
Pleonast (5) - Santo Rugger, diggitcamara, sinjin, Roosh, zuma 2.0
Death by Irony (1) - Captain Klutz
kassia (1) - NAF1138
mhaye (1) - Pleonast

15 votes have been cast. The Day will end at 5:00PM EST today, or in approximately five and a half hours, unless someone makes it to 11 votes before then. I'll be away for a few hours, but back in plenty of time to end the Day.

[Death By Irony]

When I posted about Diomedes, I hadn't realized that he was active elsewhere. So clearly availability isn't the case, and his "I have a magic back, but I won't show you it yet" has gone from mildly irritating to suspiciously anti-town.

As far as Pleonast's power go, we don't know how the game's set up, but I wouldn't rule out that it's stoppable either by what NAF has claimed about the Replicant's resistance to kills or a doctor/roleblocker.

At this point, I don't see a point in voting for anybody other than one of the two vote leaders, and of the two, I think Diomedes is more suspicious, so vote Diomedes.

[Pleonast]

sinjin said:

I want to make a first cut on who to vote for. I think scum are less likely to vote for Colonists on a Day One vote then Colonists are. Colonists have no real information to go on and so vote essentially randomly.

Here he misinterprets how colonists vote. We don't vote randomly, we vote blindly. I didn't see anybody casting a vote for electrocution using a magic 8 ball on day one.

And you misinterpret what I said. "Essentially random" does not mean actually random.

sinjin said:

He removes three folks from his list of those who voted for a non-confirmed colonist because they posted a lot and "they tend to receive a lot of heat." However Santo Rugger and Roosh didn't receive any heat at all on day one as I recall. Dio did get some for his crazy voting but not what I would call a lot. This is just a specious reason to remove folks from his goofy list. Not one of them had a vote on them at Day one's end.

And again you misunderstand what I said. There's a reason I used the phrase "they tend to receive a lot of heat" rather than "they all receive a lot of heat".

sinjin said:

Then later toDay even after he's been called on his logic fallacy he
posted this in response to mhaye:

Ok, that makes your objection more sensible. I withdraw my suspicion on that particular point. That leaves you at the same suspicion score as kassia and diggit. If my vote remains a singleton on you, I will likely move it to one of them before the end of the day.

But kassia and diggit both voted for Pleo on day one!!!!! So they shouldn't have been on his non-confirmed colonist voter hit list in the first place.

There's no fallacy. I'm not a confirmed colonist.

sinjin said:

And finally what CaptainKlutz's posted rings true to me:

Now, imagine that Pleo is scum with the special ability to bomb one player. Then the natural town role to false claim is that of a one shot vigilante that uses a bomb. My concern is that, since it is certain to kill, this bomb would be particularly powerful in scum's hands. For example, a Doctor's protection will be ineffective. Or it could be used to kill a resurrected pro town replicant. Hmmm, this sounds a bit too powerful and unbalancing, so that's one argument against it, but it's something I am certainly going to keep in mind.

I can't do much about speculation about my role. I've given my role and it's not confirmable until I use my one-time power.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~

I'm not convinced electrocuting lurkers, Diomedes included, is such a great strategy. Electrocuting him without even hearing from him feels too much like a scummy bandwagon.

Since no one feels inclined to follow my lead on mhaye, I'm happy to switch my vote from
mhaye
to
kassia

On preview, Death, I'm fairly sure that my kill is not resistible. My role pm says the bomb is certain to destroy its target. And blocking me (once the bomb is planted; I don't know what happens if I'm blocked as I'm placing it) only serves to trigger it. For whatever reason, this game has a pro-Colony role with a one-time, slow but certain Night-kill power.

[episodeofblonde]

Thing is, Pleo, Dio was not a lurker Day One or Night One. He was weird then, and now he appears to be deliberately avoiding defending himself. This is so suspicious it's hard to ignore, and with the time we have left, the only real choices are him or you. You aren't a good lynch for toDay, as I'm sure you'll agree, even if the specifics of your role claim make folks uncomfortable (myself included). mhaye is def. being suspicious, though, and I've got my eye on him and would like to hear more from him.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

I don't consider Dio to be a "lurker", at least not the same variety of lurking as many other players are currently guilty of. I also don't like your spinning votes for him as being "votes for a lurker". I'm not voting for him only because he's been scarce here toDay, though it is part of my justification for my vote.

[Pleonast]

I agree, blonde, that Dio's behavior is strange. I just don't like electrocuting someone without hearing anything from them. What if he's a Colonist power role? Of course, if he is a power role, I'll be mightily pissed at him for screwing with us.

Cookies, whatever his past posting behavior, he's definitely a lurker this Day. And perhaps you've stated different reasons you're voting for him (I don't remember off the top of my head), but others have basically said "he promised to tell us something, but didn't show. let's fry him". I guess I want to see a better reason than that to electrocute him.

But if he's not willing to speak in his own defense, then he deserves what comes to him. At least when we know his role, he'll have left plenty to review from Day One and there's plenty of commentary about him toDay.

[NAF1138]

pleonast said:

I agree, blonde, that Dio's behavior is strange. I just don't like electrocuting someone without hearing anything from them. What if he's a Colonist power role? Of course, if he is a power role, I'll be mightily pissed at him for screwing with us.

Cookies, whatever his past posting behavior, he's definitely a lurker this Day. And perhaps you've stated different reasons you're voting for him (I don't remember off the top of my head), but others have basically said "he promised to tell us something, but didn't show. let's fry him". I guess I want to see a better reason than that to electrocute him.

But if he's not willing to speak in his own defense, then he deserves what comes to him. At least when we know his role, he'll have left plenty to review from Day One and there's plenty of commentary about him toDay.

I will come out in favor of the Dio execution. It doesn't look like I need to change my vote, so I am going to keep it on kassia for record keeping purposes. I still think she is more suspicious. But Dio has been sketchy both toDay (with his absense) and yesterDay when he was participating.

[Pollux Oil]

I'm just going to say that my vote is for Diomedes because of things I found suspicious that he did on Day 1. I mentioned that once he let us know what was in the magic bag, I might change it, however since he never let us know what was in it he never gave me a reason to change my vote.

zeriel said:

Still suspicious of the lurkers previously mentioned. Also suspicious of Sinjin and Mhaye, but not enough to not vote for Diomedes when day end approaches--I'm leaving my vote off now because I don't want to leave the scum with the option of quick-lynching someone close to majority. I WILL place my vote on one of the four I mentioned if anyone not on that list gets pushed up close to them in votecount.

I also find this post highly suspicious.

[Parzival]

I feel like I'm about a day behind in this game. I haven't had time to look at everyone on my suspicious list fairly yet. A slight positive may be the night strategizing, so that if anything I can actually post my analysis when it's done, rather than waiting until tomorrow.

But with so little time left, I don't have a good reason to switch my vote off Diomedes. I actually intended it as a prod initially, but his lack of even any post makes it more and more suspicious. Enough that I'm okay leaving my vote on him (especially if the only alternative is Pleonast, who's at least contributing).

[storyteller0910]

PAGE SEVEN VOTE COUNT

Diomedes (8) - drainbead, atarus, Parzival, CometotheDarkSideWeHaveCookies, kassia, Tragic, episodeofblonde, DeathbyIrony
Pleonast (5) - Santo Rugger, diggitcamara, sinjin, Roosh, zuma 2.0
kassia (2) - NAF1138, Pleonast
Death by Irony (1) - Captain Klutz

16 votes have been cast. The Day will end at 5:00PM EST today, or in approximately three hours, unless someone makes it to 11 votes before then. I'll be away for a few hours, but back in plenty of time to end the Day.

[Drain Bead]

Pleonast sez:

There's no fallacy. I'm not a confirmed colonist.

You are a confirmed colonist to yourself, and more importantly in regard to your underlying theory of how people are voting, you would be a confirmed colonist to the scum, also. I suppose you could be a SK or survivor or something, but after your roleclaim the scum has probably chalked you up as a Colonist. So I really fail to see why it matters that none of the rest of us know for sure. The scum DO. So not ruling yourself out in a "scum vote for scum on Day One" theory (which I'm not even sure I agree with anyway) is ridiculous. I'm not even sure why you're defending this so much.

Right now it seems like Dio is going to get the chair, and I do think he has been acting suspiciously enough to deserve my vote. I think, however, that you're next, provided you don't get Vigged tonight.

[Merestil Haye]

It turns out that I'm going out this evening, so this post is going to be a bit more rushed than I'd like. I'll try and cover all the bases.

1. I'm still suspicious of Zeriel for the slip Yesterday, because it is a slip that non-Colonists are especially likely to make. I entered the Day most suspicous of Zeriel, and as I said, intended to be placing a vote for him.

Of the other players I had suspicion of, I'm not going to rehash the arguments except to say this. If a game is not fun, I stop playing it. And I don't think my reactions are that uncommon.

Now we come to my new suspicions. Two of them, both of which are based on posts made since my declaration of intent.

2. Santo Rugger.
He responded to D2.133 with post D2.137, that excised my declaration of intent to vote and then asked if I intended to actually vote. The clear intent of this is to imply that I meant not to vote. When I called him on this (two posts later), he responded with this post. It tries to put the blame on me for not actually voting at the time. Sorry, but I clearly expressed my intention to vote. You chopped that out and implied I did not intend to vote. That was not correct.

3. Roosh and Atarus.
I was very concerned when I read the opening section of D2.170, as it seems to be advocating that the colony as a whole somehow "coordinate" their electrocutions with the Vig's activity. That's something I tend to think is a scummy idea as it gives the scum faction(s) the chance to put suggestions into the mix. And we've seen how well it worked.

His post is a reaction to one of Atarus's. I'd read that and concluded that Atarus was floating ideas, but at least he accepts that the Vig (whoever that may be) is free to act as he sees fit.

One other thing from the post of Atarus's; I think we seem to have let go of the understanding that a lurker isn't a person who doesn't post much. A lurker is a person who actually does read the board, but doesn't post much. Someone who is not posting is far more likely to be not posting for rl reasons. As a case in point, Whatthefrak was not lurking in Firefly. He went AWOL. I happen to know (because I looked) that six hours before the end of Day 7, when only WTF and I had not voted, he had not logged into the board for seven real life days - sometime in the middle of the previous Night, in fact. That's pretty much when I decided I was hung and started writing the death scene.

Currently my choices for electrocuting are (a) Diomedes, (b) Pleonast or (c) someone else. Dio is ahead 8 votes to 5 for Pleo, 2 for Kassia and one for Death By Irony.

I have no reason to join the lead wagon, so I won't. I have nothing much against Pleo, Kassia or Death by Irony. So I'm looking at a vote to register that I really think this person is scummy for later. Which doesn't enthuse me either, but it's the best I've got.

It boils down to Zeriel or Governor Rugger. And right now, I need to take some time to distance myself from Governor Rugger's tactic and work out whether it's a deliberate smudge from a scum or to draw heat. I can best do that by not voting for him.

So vote Zeriel for the same basic reason as Yesterday.

[Boozahol Squid, P.I.]

Well, holy shit. Life catches up for you for a few days, and all of a sudden, you're moments from getting strung up.
I'll say, for one, that I haven't been avoiding this place intentionally... I just got caught up in work stuff, and the one time that I had time to really try to get a handle on this game I got pulled away from it before I could type up properly my suspicions. It takes a lot more to compose a post in a mafia game than it does to rattle off a response to a thread on the Dope.

As is, I don't have any good reason why you guys shouldn't lynch me just yet: no role claims are forth coming. My super-secret vote-cast was zeriel... but it wasn't having 'a magic'... I was really just foretelling an early day lynch vote based on some decent suspicions.

If you guys let me live after today, I promise I'll be good and not flake off like this again. If not, feel fine in that you're only killing a vanilla.

Oh, and I'll vote for the number two guy, even if I'm less convinced of his guilt than I was yesterday.

Vote: Pleo

[Santo Rugger]

No, mhaye, it was neither.

I'm a snipper. I snip almost every quote I make, when playing Mafia or just posting on the SDMB.

By your own admission, your above post was rushed because you didn't have much time. What if you had had a few less minutes available? Then you wouldn't have had time to log on, catch up, and compose a vote. If your intention is to vote for somebody, do it.

What I extremely dislike is holding on to a vote until the last 24 (or in your case THREE) hours left in the day. It makes it way too easy for scum to manipulate things, or seal a vote that may otherwise lose momentum. I don't think you have to go back very far to find a perfect example of this phenomenon.

[Parzival]

pygmyrugger said:

It depends. Contrary to what dotchan has mentioned several times in this Game, when I was scum in Firefly contemplating why the night deaths happened, it was not because I was trying to show how cleaver the scum were. It was because I was truly trying to figure out the game setup, just as everybody else was. In time, there is the possibility I may have slipped by knowing the killer of a certain player, and forgetting the rest of the town didn't. Wondering and speculating about who died and why, IMHO, is not scummy. Although, I must admit, I was a lot more concerned about it when I was scum.

Since I was on the other side of that in Firefly, I have to say this was exactly the sort of thing I was looking for. I tried to talk a bit about the deaths to maybe pull out someone who knew too much. On the downside, I also knew that I knew too much and risked exposing myself. At one point I practically was begging for info from wtf (this was so I could confirm/disprove his claim to myself). Idle even pointed out the similar situation he had as the Witchdoctor (though in that case it was an open set-up, it was a secret power).

One of the things about a closed set-up is that the power roles are more powerful - since they know what they can do, and the scum don't. The downside, in my opinion, is that they're also more likely to be suspicious because of this.

So I don't know if it's necessarily good or bad to talk up the deaths. Risky, maybe, for both sides, and I'm trying to curtail some of it, but I'm naturally curious as to the set-up.


That said —zeriel, your recent speculation about three scum-kills seems ill-founded and almost designed to call out a power role. My opinion is that the nature of the game practically demands a Vig role. Additionally, the speculation subtly sheds doubt on NAF's claim about replicant night-kill resistance^*. This in combination with some of your other actions is enough for me to take a closer look at you.



*Which I'm not sure I believe, but the implication from your post is still there.

[storyteller0910]

MODIFIED PAGE SEVEN VOTE COUNT

Diomedes (8) - drainbead, atarus, Parzival, CometotheDarkSideWeHaveCookies, kassia, Tragic, episodeofblonde, DeathbyIrony
Pleonast (6) - Santo Rugger, diggitcamara, sinjin, Roosh, zuma 2.0, Diomedes
kassia (2) - NAF1138, Pleonast
Death by Irony (1) - Captain Klutz
Zeriel (1) - mhaye

18 votes have been cast. The Day will end at 5:00PM EST, or in approximately two hours.

[Zeriel]

Quick reply to our governor while I read the rest: Oh crap, it IS Thursday. This "nailing down a new job and resigning from the old one" is messing with my mental calendar.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

Aaaaaaand we're again a few hours away from the end of the Day and two votes away from a tie that includes a vote from our Gov.

[Zeriel]

Full response:

I'm not voting today. I thought it was Wednesday, and I would have been voting for Diomedes anyway--although I will hang around the thread to see if there's any kind of last-minute push of Pleo over Dio.

I was throwing out a worst-case, since these mafia games have been getting more experimental about power roles, scum powers, and other such, and I took it to the logical extreme of "very few scum, but very powerful" just to see what it might look like--we already have NAF's claim that the scum in game are particularly powerful in some way. BTW, Parzival, I agree that the nature of Blade Runner suggests a combo cop/vig--but at the same time, the nature of Firefly demanded that Kaylee isn't a traitor and that River is death on two legs, and really, there are fluff arguements for and against a Blade Runner just happening to be here and available on a random colony out in the middle of wherever the hell New Canaan is.

Mhaye still annoys me because he's doing that thing he does where he's all mysterious and late to the voting party. He's played that way while being both alignments, so who knows.

In short, I'm in the same boat as much of the town--there's not a lot here to go on yet.

[Boozahol Squid, P.I.]

::plays harmonica::

[Santo Rugger]

cometothedarkside said:

Aaaaaaand we're again a few hours away from the end of the Day and two votes away from a tie that includes a vote from our Gov.

Aaaaaaaaaand again, it involves you too.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

Why are you being obtuse on this point? You're the only one who has any direct impact whatsoever in the case of a tie, not me or anyone else.

Circumstantially, we've been on the opposite sides of the pre-ties for two days, but where my vote is or isn't has absolutely no bearing at all on this topic.

[Santo Rugger]

cometothedarkside said:

Why are you being obtuse on this point? You're the only one who has any direct impact whatsoever in the case of a tie, not me or anyone else.

Circumstantially, we've been on the opposite sides of the pre-ties for two days, but where my vote is or isn't has absolutely no bearing at all on this topic.

I'm not being obtuse at all. I thought I've made it very clear that it rubs me the wrong way that you think I shouldn't get a vote. Part of your justification (which is another word for reason, btw) for your argument is the mish-mash of reasons under which I was elected. I'm pretty sure the next Guv election will have more concrete reasons (justifications, if you will) than the one that took place on the first day of the game. When that's the case, your argument may hold some water. Right now, it doesn't, and I refuse to relinquish my right to vote, and therefore participate, just because you think I shouldn't be able to.

[storyteller0910]

Ten minutes. No change since the count. Tick tock.

[Boozahol Squid, P.I.]

Tick tock, tick tock... Hook's afraid of a big, damn clock...

But I'm not.


unvote: pleo
vote: me

Good luck, fair town.

[storyteller0910]

...and that'll do 'er. Voting is now closed. Please feel free to continue your conversation while I work up the Dusk post.

[Boozahol Squid, P.I.]

Sorry everyone.

[RoOsh]

mhaye said:

3. Roosh and Atarus.
I was very concerned when I read the opening section of D2.170, as it seems to be advocating that the colony as a whole somehow "coordinate" their electrocutions with the Vig's activity. That's something I tend to think is a scummy idea as it gives the scum faction(s) the chance to put suggestions into the mix. And we've seen how well it worked.

His post is a reaction to one of Atarus's. I'd read that and concluded that Atarus was floating ideas, but at least he accepts that the Vig (whoever that may be) is free to act as he sees fit.

I felt no need to reiterate what Atarus said there because it (to me at least) is so blindingly obvious that it bears not repeating: That is: The Vig (and Every OTHER ProTown Power Role) Should do whatever the hell they WANT to do. The idea that I or Atarus or anyone else should hold so much sway as to persuade A Power role to do something "because I think so" is a scary thought. I was just voicing my approval of the idea, because I dislike the Vig and I dislike the idea of lurking players. That plan combined the two and quickly reduced two problems into one lesser problem.
Of course, I completely understand if the Vig feels the idea is stupid and figures they're not gonna listen. That's fine. But I still wanted my opinion out there, and I felt no need to preface it with another "The vig should do whatever he wants obviously" because I felt it wasn't needed.

And I don't really believe I'm advocated that WE as a Town coordinate electrocutions with the Vig. I am stating that we as a colony keep doing what we're doing. Hunting for scum, and examining the posts of players, however, if you have Scum out there that are deliberately NOT posting, how can you find them? I liked the suggestion that perhaps the threat of a Vig or other such role eliminating these "lurking" posters will encourage them to start posting more often. This will then force them to contribute, and if they are scum, then we can at least have some POSTS to look at as well. That's what I liked about the idea. That hopefully after 1-2 days of that (or maybe even just the voiced THREAT of such an idea), we'll suddenly have an increase in posters, and there won't be ANY need for the Vig to go after low post counters, because everyone will be contributing.

So I voiced my opinion, because I wanted to add credence to the idea, and I like the threat of the idea being out there. But again, in no way am I advocating that the Vig listen to these ideas, or implement them. But I will take the stance that I myself am Pro-such ideas.

~~~~~~~~~~
Also, to whoever stated the 3 killing scum idea.
That's just really over the top. The only way I could see that is if the scum didn't know each other, and there was a chance of them hitting each other. But then that would simply be 3 SK type of roles.
A scum group getting 3 night kills is just horribly unbalanced, unless there was a probability factor (that perhaps each scum had a 33% chance to kill or such), but still... playing in such a game would just be terribly unfun I'd think, and I doubt Storyteller's a dick.
Because that's not Bastard Modding, that's just being a Dick.