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Post by Captain Klutz on Feb 17, 2014 5:04:27 GMT -5
So will you answer my question, Klutz? If I am Scum, how did I know Texcat and Paranoia were 3rd Party? As I said before, I don't really have an answer for that. All I could think of is that scum had some knowledge of the third party group, but that seems very unlikely. If people don't want to lynch Pleonast toDay then my nest preference is storyteller. So: Unvote: PleonastVote: storyteller
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Post by storyteller0910 on Feb 17, 2014 10:27:50 GMT -5
OK - I'm back. Sorry, the weekends are always very busy for me.
I'd like to spend some time in the next two days looking back over past voting patterns with more knowledge than we had before.
But I'm also concerned about Chameleon and Paranoia. In game that's all about backstabbing, espionage, and sneakery, we've just decided to take it on faith that two claimed third parties, including one with a killing power, are non-malicious? Not sure that makes a lot of sense. I'd be inclined to investigate one of them.
Wasting an investigation on me, Klutz, is the least pro-Town thing I've seen you do so far. You are making a bet that the mod will include a mechanism by which a putative Godfather could have been uncovered by Town investigation instantly, on Day One - a swingy and unbalanced mechanic making the Godfather all but useless. From your collective perspective, I could still be the Godfather, but believing that the group investigation mechanic is going to reveal that is overly hopeful at best, an anti-Town risk at worst.
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Post by storyteller0910 on Feb 17, 2014 10:30:11 GMT -5
You know what? Now I'm thinking I'm wrong about Klutz, and have been for a while. "Hey, everybody! Let's waste an investigation on a player we've investigated twice AND gotten a pro-Town read on. Let's waste a LYNCH on that player, in spite of having no real reason to believe they are Scum other than sort of a vague hand-waving!
And - what a coincidence - let's lynch a player who has openly announced that the Scum can't Night kill him! That's not at all what Scum would do! Look over here, everybody!"
vote Captain Klutz
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Post by Pleonast on Feb 17, 2014 14:51:33 GMT -5
The remaining players are 1: Colby11 2: Paranoia 3: Meeko 4: Pleonast 5: Chameleon 6: Captain Klutz 8: Swammerdami 9: storyteller0910
I think, based on the last un-updated player list.
It's time for some new evaluations. This is going to be based on my memories of the game, so please correct any errors. I am going to minimize the number of assumptions I'm making. I want to make clear what we know, and what we don't know, but assume.
Paranoia and Chamelion claim to be third parties. The evidence in their favor is they claim to know texcat's results. As far as I know, they haven't revealed the mechanism for knowing those results. We also have no independent verifications of those results. If their claims are true, I'm not sure how much we can trust them. They may want mislynches at this point, which also brings the scum closer to winning. Unfortunately, many town need mislynches, too, so there may be enough support to mislynch anyway. The problem is if they are telling the truth, lynching them are mislynches, too.
It's possible that they are lying and are a win-stealing team who managed to get texcat's results via a power. In this case we need to lynch them. And probably before lynching the last scum, in case they'll win without us.
Klutz and swammerdami both claim to be town investigators. Neither have investigated anyone who is scum. That means the results are not yet confirmed. If they are both truthful (and town has two alignment investigators), then since we know scum had a role to interfere with alignment results, I think it's likely scum have another role to do the same. Godfather-type or something else. Which means I'm trusting their results, even if they are being truthful.
I think it's quite likely one of them is lying. I'm more suspicious of swammer, simply because of their late claim. They claim to have an identical description in their role to Klutz, and yet said nothing when Klutz initially claimed. It's very unusual for a game to have two alignment investigators, yet swammer didn't have a problem with the dual claim. This strikes me as suspiciously odd.
But I don't trust Klutz either. They're likely lying about their power or their results. A constant stream of "scum" results cannot be explained by their claimed power. My dilemma is I can't afford to lynch either one until we know for sure which one is actually town.
And last, there's Colby, Meeko and story. Given the likelyhood of a godfather-scum, I can't assume any of them are town. Meeko has an odd problem with being investigated. I can't understand why any town would think that way. But their play is otherwise pro-town, except for apparently not blocking anyone last Night. Why?
I was more suspicious of Colby in the past, but am less so now since we've had two Nights without kills. I don't know of it's the blockers or their protection power, but overall results feel more townie now. It would be nice to have a complete accounting of who protected who and who blocked who. We might be able to clear or convict someone based on that info. But given the good results we've had, I can understand if they want to keep things secret for now. I'm a little concerned that useful info might be lost to a scum kill.
story plays pro-town as always, but that gives no indication of their alignment. I'm not willing to lynch story until some more suspicious players have been lynched, or something incriminating pops up.
So, my current feeling is we need to lynch someone, but I don't have a strong opinion on who to lynch. I do think we should not lynch any of Klutz, swammer or story. I'm not opposed to lynching Meeko or Colby, but I don't think they're great candidates.
Which leaves me with the claimed third parties, Paranoia and Chameleon. They claim their own deaths help their victory condition. Let's put that to the test. vote Paranoia for being an unconfirmed third-party who claims their own death will help them. Plus I think there's already a vote on them. antivote storyteller for not being a good lynch candidate ToDay.
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Post by Chameleon on Feb 17, 2014 14:53:01 GMT -5
Hmmm, the Captain is my 2nd choice. Interesting. I'm not going to mention my first choice at the moment as everyone will just think I'm CRAAAZZZYYYYY. I'm totally up for a Captain lynch though - I just hope he's not actually Scum. I love how this game is so counter-intuitive Vote: Captain Klutz
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Post by Pleonast on Feb 17, 2014 14:59:31 GMT -5
And I'd rather not lynch Klutz, either. un-antivote storyteller antivote Klutz
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Post by Chameleon on Feb 17, 2014 15:02:02 GMT -5
Pleo, the "mechanism" by which we knew Texcat's results was that she told us on our own private message board. Nothing magical there.
We do not have any win condition other than enough people being dead. Which means that someone other that us will win if and when we do. Close to the beginning of the game we talked amongst ourselves about how our group was likely a balancing factor to the game, and it appears that's exactly what we are.
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Post by Captain Klutz on Feb 17, 2014 17:17:37 GMT -5
Chameleon and Paranoia have backed up each other as being third party. We can confirm both of them by just lynching one of them. Note that the mod has confirmed that third party is not a win stealing faction, so we don't need to lynch both of them.
For the final 4, I suggest the following:
Meeko Chameleon or Paranoia Colby Pleonast
Then lynch Pleonast for the win.
Yes, that means I'll be dead before the end.
I would prefer a storyteller lynch toDay. so my vote stays. I will move the investigation though:
Uninvestigate: storyteller Investigate: Captain Klutz
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Post by Captain Klutz on Feb 17, 2014 17:25:12 GMT -5
You know what? Now I'm thinking I'm wrong about Klutz, and have been for a while. "Hey, everybody! Let's waste an investigation on a player we've investigated twice AND gotten a pro-Town read on. Let's waste a LYNCH on that player, in spite of having no real reason to believe they are Scum other than sort of a vague hand-waving! And - what a coincidence - let's lynch a player who has openly announced that the Scum can't Night kill him! That's not at all what Scum would do! Look over here, everybody!" vote Captain Klutz(bleached) You know story, this really looks out of character for you. As for your claimed ability, I simply don't believe you. You have suggested that you have an unstoppable self protection, although you decided not to use it last Night. You have also objected to an investigation, on the basis that your ability is useless if it is known. Well, you have now stated your ability. Is it now useless? And what kind of role reveal would have been worse that what you have now said?
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Post by swammerdami on Feb 17, 2014 18:51:07 GMT -5
For the final 4, I suggest the following: MeekoChameleon or Paranoia ColbyPleonastThen lynch Pleonast for the win. If we deliberately come down to only two Townies, we risk that Scum has an unblockable Kill in reserve. Pleonast hasn't posted his Scum win condition, but won't he probably win as soon as there's a single Townie?
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Post by Captain Klutz on Feb 17, 2014 22:52:36 GMT -5
If we deliberately come down to only two Townies, we risk that Scum has an unblockable Kill in reserve. Pleonast hasn't posted his Scum win condition, but won't he probably win as soon as there's a single Townie? The scum win condition typically relates to the number of non scum, rather than number of town. That is why lynching a harmless third party is actually a mislynch. It would be safer to eliminate both third parties, leaving (say) swammer, Meeko and Colby in the final 4.
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Post by Captain Klutz on Feb 17, 2014 22:54:22 GMT -5
Chameleon and Paranoia,
1. Who would you like to see in the final 4?
2. Do you think there is just 1 scum left, or 2?
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Post by Chameleon on Feb 17, 2014 23:36:53 GMT -5
Chameleon and Paranoia, 1. Who would you like to see in the final 4? 2. Do you think there is just 1 scum left, or 2? 1. Since I haven't decided who I think is the last Scum I don't know who I'd like to see in the final 4. It's tempting to say myself and Paranoia but that's not practical since that would only leave room for one Town and one Scum. I feel pretty good about Meeko being Town considering we had a Scum roleblocker and I'm a third party roleblocker - it only makes sense that there's a Town roleblocker as well. So one third party, Meeko, and someone else I think is definitely Town and whoever I think is Scum. I don't have an answer for the last 2 at the moment. 2. I think there's only one Scum left, but that there could be an independent 3rd party/PFK (although didn't Fruit say there were no win-stealers?).
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Post by Captain Klutz on Feb 18, 2014 2:10:30 GMT -5
1. Since I haven't decided who I think is the last Scum I don't know who I'd like to see in the final 4. It's tempting to say myself and Paranoia but that's not practical since that would only leave room for one Town and one Scum. I feel pretty good about Meeko being Town considering we had a Scum roleblocker and I'm a third party roleblocker - it only makes sense that there's a Town roleblocker as well. So one third party, Meeko, and someone else I think is definitely Town and whoever I think is Scum. I don't have an answer for the last 2 at the moment. 2. I think there's only one Scum left, but that there could be an independent 3rd party/PFK (although didn't Fruit say there were no win-stealers?). 1. We need to reach some sort of consensus on the final 4. I mean, it's difficult to work towards a common goal unless we can agree on what that goal is. It seems you still have some doubts about Colby, even though a role cop verified him, and one Night he was targeted by all 3 roleblockers (!). Can you expand on why you still think he is scum? 2. Fruit did not say that there were no win stealers, he said that third party is distinct from PFK. I think that if there is a PFK it is Pleonast. But this is unlikely, given swammerdami's investigation, Pleo may be someone who can switch from town to scum (which incidentally may be why he thought that his 3 friends might be a mix of town and scum).
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Post by Chameleon on Feb 18, 2014 3:52:38 GMT -5
I was thinking back to the rules:
Upon re-reading that I'm not sure what I originally thought it meant. Something along the lines that I don't think there will be a win stealer per se. If there's a PFK perhaps they win with another faction. Anyway, it wasn't quite what I remembered.
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Post by Chameleon on Feb 18, 2014 4:04:00 GMT -5
It seems you still have some doubts about Colby, even though a role cop verified him, and one Night he was targeted by all 3 roleblockers (!). Can you expand on why you still think he is scum? Where did I say recently that I still had doubts about Colby? He's been so quiet I almost forgot about him. Regardless, none of what you've said actually clears him 100%. Anyone could say they were roleblocked by any number of players (within reason) particularly if there was a roleblocker remaining in their faction. I'm not saying that I think he's Scum for certain, I just don't think we should consider him absolutely confirmed.
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Post by FruitAndGarbage on Feb 18, 2014 6:28:18 GMT -5
Mod, Is the Scum allowed to use its Night Kill against itself? To put Town out of its misery and "natter natter natter" the Townies without wincon achieved? If they wanted to, they would be allowed to. Doing so would in most situations be playing against their wincon, which is bad form; in the situation you described (prematurely ending the game to secure a loss for themselves but also guaranteeing losses for some remaining players) it would also just be spiteful. I wouldn't stop them from so doing, but everyone would know who did it after the game ended and might not be happy about it.
Votes: Paranoia [2]: Swammerdami (5), Pleonast (33) Pleonast [1]: Captain Klutz (2), Meeko (17) Storyteller0910 [1]: Captain Klutz (30), Swammerdami (-33) Captain Klutz [1]: Storyteller0910 (32), Chameleon (34), Pleonast (-35)
Investigations: Captain Klutz [1]: Captain Klutz (37) Storyteller0910 [0]: Captain Klutz (22)
With these votes, Paranoia will be lynched and Captain Klutz will be investigated. Day ends at 10:00 PM tonight, in 18 hours.
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Post by Captain Klutz on Feb 18, 2014 6:40:43 GMT -5
Where did I say recently that I still had doubts about Colby? He's been so quiet I almost forgot about him. Regardless, none of what you've said actually clears him 100%. Anyone could say they were roleblocked by any number of players (within reason) particularly if there was a roleblocker remaining in their faction. I'm not saying that I think he's Scum for certain, I just don't think we should consider him absolutely confirmed. I'm not sure, but I just had the impression that Colby was the one you were thinking of in post #34 above, when you said "I'm not going to mention my first choice at the moment as everyone will just think I'm CRAAAZZZYYYYY." Anyway, if you are looking for 100% proof I think you are in the wong game. I would put him as second most confirmed after Meeko. Also, feel free to mention your first choice. Do you think anyone will think you are crazier than me?
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Post by Captain Klutz on Feb 18, 2014 8:21:19 GMT -5
One more final thought before going to bed.
We are in a bit of a quandry, because town want to lynch scum, but third party are trying to avoid lynching scum. So right now, third party are playing basically pro scum, not wanting to lynch anyone who may be scum.
I'm not (yet) ready to lynch someone who I think is town. So that does not leave many options if we want to satisfy both town and third party. In fact, the only safe lynch is a third party player, as that will not end the game, will bring third party closer to their win, and leaves town in the overall majority.
So Chameleon and paranoia, are you happy for one of you to be lynched toDay? If not, why not?
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Post by storyteller0910 on Feb 18, 2014 9:59:31 GMT -5
You know story, this really looks out of character for you. Oh, how I hate arguments like that. But I'll indulge it, since I'm becoming more convinced that you're Scum and am happy to let you indict yourself. Please elucidate. What is my "character" normally, and how is the post you quote out of it? I have not stated my ability. I have stated that I can create a certain outcome. Perhaps that is an unstoppable self-protection, and perhaps not. I decline to reveal the details because the details would obviate my ability to use my power effectively if the right circumstances arise. But your subtle fishing for additional information about my power is noted (and pointed out to all observing). You "don't believe me" because you need a mislynch, and have convinced yourself that you can force one in me - plus you now know that you cannot reliably eliminate me via Night kill. There is no evidence that I am lying, no evidence that I am Scum, and yet you persist in "believing" that I am because you think you can convince others. That's OK, actually - the game is more fun that way. Bring it on.
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Post by Pleonast on Feb 18, 2014 10:35:25 GMT -5
Pleo, the "mechanism" by which we knew Texcat's results was that she told us on our own private message board. Nothing magical there. We do not have any win condition other than enough people being dead. Which means that someone other that us will win if and when we do. Close to the beginning of the game we talked amongst ourselves about how our group was likely a balancing factor to the game, and it appears that's exactly what we are. I assumed that you have a secret board, but you didn't respond when I asked about it earlier. I tend to believe your claims, since a group of three non-hostile third-parties is more likely than two win-stealers faking a communication with a non-hostile third party. It's just we don't have any proof at this point. And since your own death furthers your own victory condition, it works out for us and you to confirm via lynch. You know what? Now I'm thinking I'm wrong about Klutz, and have been for a while. "Hey, everybody! Let's waste an investigation on a player we've investigated twice AND gotten a pro-Town read on. Let's waste a LYNCH on that player, in spite of having no real reason to believe they are Scum other than sort of a vague hand-waving! And - what a coincidence - let's lynch a player who has openly announced that the Scum can't Night kill him! That's not at all what Scum would do! Look over here, everybody!" vote Captain Klutz(bleached) You know story, this really looks out of character for you. As for your claimed ability, I simply don't believe you. You have suggested that you have an unstoppable self protection, although you decided not to use it last Night. You have also objected to an investigation, on the basis that your ability is useless if it is known. Well, you have now stated your ability. Is it now useless? And what kind of role reveal would have been worse that what you have now said? Meta-gaming is bad, okay? But unless you're implying storyteller is usually bad player, I'm not sure what your point is. You've been pushing your narrative of the game for a long while, without any evidence to support it. Your claimed power has produced no useful results. You claimed power and your claimed results are inconsistent. story is actually looking at the evidence instead of simply taking for granted unconfirmed claims. If only more mafia players did as much. For the final 4, I suggest the following: MeekoChameleon or Paranoia ColbyPleonastThen lynch Pleonast for the win. If we deliberately come down to only two Townies, we risk that Scum has an unblockable Kill in reserve. Pleonast hasn't posted his Scum win condition, but won't he probably win as soon as there's a single Townie? *snort* That's because I have a townie victory condition. Why don't you post your scum victory condition? It seems you still have some doubts about Colby, even though a role cop verified him, and one Night he was targeted by all 3 roleblockers (!). Can you expand on why you still think he is scum? I guess this explains why you think storyteller looks strange. Here you are simply accepting what Colby has claimed. Maybe they're telling the truth, but we don't know that for sure.
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Colby11
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Creator of Hell's Kitchen Mafia
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Post by Colby11 on Feb 18, 2014 14:13:10 GMT -5
Vote: Vote Paranoia
Just to see how the 3rd party aspect works out. Pleonast will wait until tomorrow, since I don't have the support to swing him.
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Post by Captain Klutz on Feb 18, 2014 19:36:06 GMT -5
Oh, how I hate arguments like that. But I'll indulge it, since I'm becoming more convinced that you're Scum and am happy to let you indict yourself. Please elucidate. What is my "character" normally, and how is the post you quote out of it? Your posts are normally very considered and calm. This post felt very aggressive, even with a touch of anger. It certainly felt very different to your normal posting style. I can only recall one other time that I felt this way about one of your posts. This was a game a fair while ago that I was not playing in, just reading along. It was the semi gastard game where the surprise was that all the townies were actually vanilla. You had made an early (apparent) slip, and were needing to defend it. At one point you suddenly rounded on sachertorte (I think) and managed to get him lynched. I was not spoiled in that game, so I didn't know who was scum. But I did feel at the time that there was something off, that you had, I don't know, "broken character". And eventually you were indeed unmasked as scum. Your post to me gave me that same feeling. A follow up question: do you think we should aim for a final 4, or just lynch who we think is scum?
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Post by Captain Klutz on Feb 18, 2014 19:40:19 GMT -5
I guess this explains why you think storyteller looks strange. Here you are simply accepting what Colby has claimed. Maybe they're telling the truth, but we don't know that for sure. No, I'm not "simply accepting" what Colby has claimed. 2 roleblockers later confirmed targeting him, and no-one else has reported being blocked. But it's not just that. There is also the fact that his ability was confirmed by gnarlycharlie, and my own invetigation (apparently) clears him.
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Post by Captain Klutz on Feb 18, 2014 19:42:32 GMT -5
Pleonast, storyteller, please respond to my question in post #23
I am particularly interested in your inputs as you are both game designers.
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Post by Chameleon on Feb 19, 2014 0:41:18 GMT -5
What kind of team mate would I be if I didn't give Paranoia the chance to save himself? Antivote: ParanoiaI could create a no-lynch but I just don't think that's productive right now
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Post by Captain Klutz on Feb 19, 2014 0:50:57 GMT -5
A third party lynch it is:
Unvote: storyteller
Vote: Paranoia
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Post by Captain Klutz on Feb 19, 2014 0:52:59 GMT -5
And storyteller, I simply do not believe you.
Uninvestigate: Captain Klutz
Investigate: storyteller
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Post by Chameleon on Feb 19, 2014 0:58:44 GMT -5
You didn't have to change your vote Captain ( Colby's vote for Paranoia wasn't in the last tally). But the whole this is rather sad in that Paranoia's death does nothing to gain information
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Post by Chameleon on Feb 19, 2014 0:59:40 GMT -5
this = thing - d'oh!
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