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Post by Pleonast on Oct 15, 2008 14:24:25 GMT -5
I've been working on new rules set. It's a completely open rules set, so there's no spoilers involved.
Please give feedback. I think balance is good, but more eyes is helpful. I'm particularly looking for ideas on magic items.
I'll spread the rules over the next several posts.
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Post by Pleonast on Oct 15, 2008 14:25:27 GMT -5
Introduction
Your band of plucky adventurers has finally slain the fearful dragon Smaugosaurus. Unfortunately, the Perfect Guildmaster Cecil was slain in the assault, and absent his wise leadership, the group plundered the loot in a free for fall. Only one magic item is left in the dragon's hoard: the dread Rod of Disintegration, too powerful for any character to attempt to filch. The party is now in a stand off in the treasure room.
But that is not all: when Cecil recruited this raid, he allowed some nefarious characters into it. He kept them on a tight leash, but now they are secretly eliminating their rivals. These Evil villains are apparently secretly cursing the Good heroes of the group. Another problem to vex the band!
Only stout thinking and a clear heart can bring this adventure to a happy end.
Win Conditions
Every character has two win conditions, Good or Evil, and Lawful or Chaotic. The game ends when any character meets both of their win conditions. Note that Lawful and Chaotic win conditions are not exclusive.
Good: You must eliminate the vile scum. All Evil characters must be dead for you to win. Evil: The goodie-two-shoes must be put in their proper place. There must be strictly more Evil characters than Good for you to win.
Lawful: Rules exist for a reason: to distribute loot in a reasonable manner. All magic items must be in the Hoard or in the possession of a Lawful character for you to win. You do not need to be alive to win. Chaotic: Forget the group, your own skin comes first. You must be alive to win. You don't care where the magic items are, although it's mightily convenient to have a few for your own protection.
Game Setup
The setup of the game is random. Before the game starts, each player is given a randomly determined character. The class is randomly chosen, each equally likely. Each character has two-thirds chance to be Lawful and one-third chance to be Chaotic. Each character has five-sixths chance to be Good and one-sixth chance to be Evil. Each character is given a random magic item, but no characters will have the same magic item. Every character's Class will be publicly revealed, but alignment and magic item are hidden.
There will be at least one Evil character, but not more than one-third of the total number of characters will be Evil. There will be more Lawful than Chaotic characters. Otherwise, there are no restrictions on alignment distribution. Each Class can be any alignment.
Evil characters will be given the location for their secret discussions. They will know the identities of the other Evil characters, but not each others' Lawful/Chaotic alignment.
Turns
The game is divided into Turns. Each Turn lasts seven days, ending each Wednesday at 12 noon, Pacific Time. During each Turn, all characters can talk in the game thread. Evil characters can also talk on the secret Evil board. There are absolutely no post restrictions, other than the SDMB rules.
All characters must vote for a character (possibly themself) to execute via the Rod of Disintegration. At the end of the Turn, if a character has a strict majority vote (more than one half of the number of living characters), that character is disintegrated. They will lose any action they had planned to take, their alignment will be revealed, and their magic items placed in the Hoard. Any character who fails to vote will forfeit one of their magic items to the Hoard, chosen at random. To vote, in the game thread, type like this vote Pleonast in bold and blue on a separate line. To remove a vote, type like this unvote Pleonast in bold and red on a separate line.
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Post by Pleonast on Oct 15, 2008 14:26:10 GMT -5
Abilities
Abilities have a low (1 in 6), even (1 in 2) or high (5 in 6) chance of success. Some powers affect the probability of other powers by reducing (high to even, even to low, low unchanged) or improving (low to even, even to high, high unchanged) the chance. Only the almighty Rod of Disintegration is not subject to a die roll.
Powers are also categorized as either physical, mental, or magical. This affects how they are resisted by other characters.
Powers are either secret (only you know what you did), covert (only you and the target know what you did) or overt (everyone will know what you did).
Each Turn, every character may take an action, chosen from the list below. Once you decide on your action, please PM the game moderator with the details of your choice. If you do not choose an action, it will be assumed you are watching the Hoard. All actions take place simultaneously at the end of the Turn, unless described otherwise. Results will be PM'd to characters at the beginning of the next Turn. Watch: (even/low, mental, secret) You watch a specific character or the Hoard. If you watch a character, you have an even chance to learn what they do that Turn. If you watch the Hoard, you have a low chance to notice anyone who attempts to steal an item from it. Steal: (even/low, physical, secret) You attempt to steal an item from the Hoard. If you try to steal a specific item, your chance of success is low. If you are content with a random item (excluding the Rod of Disintegration), your chance of success is even. Thefts are resolved last each Turn. If multiple characters successfully steal, the order of theft is randomly determined, but with specific items stolen before random items. Donate: (high, physical, covert/overt) You give as many of your magic items as you like to another character (a covert action), or to the Hoard (an overt action). Each item has a chance of failing the transfer. Use: (see item) You use one the magic items in your possession. Class: (see class) You use one of your class abilities.
Each Turn, the Evil characters decide among themselves which character (possibly one of themselves) to Curse (high, special, special). The cursed character will be informed of their fate at the beginning of the next Turn, but will not know who inflicted it upon them. The cursed character has a high chance of dying at the end of that Turn. They will be able to talk and vote as normal, but not take any actions at the end their final Turn. Even if they do not die, resisting the Curse will prevent any action.
The items currently in the Hoard will be publicly announced at the beginning of each Turn.
Classes
Each Class has a passive ability that is always in effect (even against beneficial effects), a regular class ability they may use as an action, and a special ability they may use once per game (which is a free action). Barbarian: You are crafty and strong. Your suspicion (low, physical) protects you from attack; physical abilities have no better than a low chance to affect you. Your regular ability is to stun (even, physical, covert) another character. A stunned character will choose a random target (possibly themself or the original target) for their action. Once per game, you may swiftly decapitate (high, physical, overt) another character, killing them before they can act that Turn. Bard: You are glib and salacious. Your outgoing (low, mental) behavior prevents attempts at discovering your alignment, giving no better than a low chance of success. You regular ability is to flirt (even, mental, covert) with another character, causing them to fail their action. Once per game, you may sing a bawdy ballad (even, mental, overt), giving all characters an even chance to fail their actions. Cleric: You are faithful and willful. Your sanctity (low, magical) gives the Evil Curse only a low chance of affecting you. Your regular ability is to divine (low, magical, secret) another character's alignment: Good or Evil. Once per game, you may cure (high, magical, covert) the Curse on a character (including yourself). Druid: You are wild and impassioned. Your spirit (low, magical) prevents any power from affecting your actions with more than a low chance of success. Your class action allows you to shelter (reduce, physical, covert) a character (possibly yourself) from physical abilities, reducing their chances of success. Once per game, you may summon a large wind (low, magical, overt) that has a low chance to move each magic item into the Hoard. Illusionist: You are dark and mysterious. Your shifty enchantments (low, magical) means magic targeting you has no better than a low chance to affect you. As a regular action, you may displace (reduce, magical, covert) a character (possibly yourself) so that any action targeting them has a reduced chance of success. Once per game, you may switch (high, magical, covert) the visage of two characters (possibly yourself), such that all actions targeting the one have a high likelihood to affect the other, and vice versa. Knight: You are well-trained and well-armed. Your armor (even, physical) protects you from physical abilities, giving each an even chance of reflecting back to the attacker. Because of your vast knowledge of protocol (even, mental, secret), by observing another character, you may determine if they are Lawful or Chaotic. Once per game, you may bash (high, physical, overt) another character with your shield, causing them to drop their items into the Hoard. Each item has a separate chance to drop. Mage: You are learned and loquacious. You are likely to know the number of charges (high, magical) on any item in your possession (a chance each Turn for each item). Your regular ability lets you detect (high, magical, secret) magic on another character and determine how many magic items they currently possess (before the effects of the Turn). Once per game, you may recharge (high, magical, secret) an item in your possession by rerolling its charge distribution. Monk: You are profound and subtle. You have mastered the Zen (low, physical) art of causing action without acting. Attempts to watch you perform a physical action are unlikely to succeed. Your regular ability is to focus your chi (improve, physical, secret). When your chi is focused, your next single action has an improved chance of success. Once per game, you may speed (reduce, physical, secret) yourself and take any three physical actions in a single Turn, but each action has a reduced chance of success. Ranger: You are perceptive and focused. You are unflappable (low, mental) and mental abilities have only a low chance of affecting you. As your regular class ability, if you choose to watch (even/low, mental, secret), you may watch two characters, or one character and the Hoard, or a character twice (giving two chances to notice), or the Hoard twice. Once per game, you may vigilantly (high, mental, secret) put all your attention on one character or item. You will have a high chance to see any action by the target and the actions targeting them. Thief: You are sneaky and guileful. Because of your covetous (low, special) nature, any attempt to affect items in possession or collect information about them is unlikely to succeed. As your class action, you may attempt to filch (even, physical, secret) an item from another character. You will gain a random item from them if you succeed. Once per game, you may choose to rob (even, physical, secret) all the items from another character, with a separate chance of success for each item they have.
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Post by Pleonast on Oct 15, 2008 14:26:36 GMT -5
Magic Items
The Hoard contained a large number of magic items, one for every character, plus a Rod of Disintegration. Possible magic items are listed below. Being Munchkins, all characters immediately recognize the identity of a magic item, but not the number of charges.
Rod of Disintegration: Blasts a character into oblivion, leaving behind a pile of their magic items and a heavily edited note describing their vital stats, including alignment. Never fails and unlimited charges. Amulet of Magic Resistance: While you possess this magic item, all magical effects have a reduced chance of affecting you. Each affected attempt uses one charge. Reduce, magical, secret, 1-6 charges. Amulet of Reflection: While you possess this magic item, all magical effects reflect back to their user half of the time. Each successful reflection uses one charge. Even, magical, covert, 1-3 charges. Axe of Hacking: Slays a character with a quick thwack in the back. Once used, the this item will remain in the victim, or next to them, and will be placed in the Hoard. High, physical, secret, unlimited charges. Bow of Cupid: By shooting a character with this, there is a high chance they will become enamored by the next character they target. Once enamored, any hostile action against their love will have a reduced chance of effectiveness, and any friendly or investigative action will have an improved chance. Special, mental, secret, 1-6 charges. Bracers of Defense: While you possess this magic item, all physical attacks have a reduced chance of success. Each affected attack uses one charge. Reduce, physical, secret, 1-6 charges. Cloak of Elvenkind: Any Turn you use this magic item, any attempt to watch or investigate you will have a reduced chance to succeed. Reduce, magical, secret, 1-6 charges. Gauntlets of Ogre Power: When you use this magic item, any physical action you attempt has an improved chance of success. Each action attempted uses a charge. Improve, physical, secret, 1-6 charges. Helm of Empathy: While you where this item, any attempt to determine your alignment will return the snooper's own alignment. Each successful distortion uses a charge. High, mental, secret, 1-6 charges. Helm of Telepathy: By targeting another character, you can determine their alignment. High, mental, secret, 1-3 charges. Helm of Will: While you possess this item, any mental power has a reduced chance of affecting you. Each attempt uses a charge. Reduce, mental, secret, 1-6 charges. Orb of Healing: By using this magic item, you can cure yourself of the Curse. High, magical, secret, 1-2 charges. Ring of Invisibility: Each time you use this magic item, all actions targeting you have only a low chance of affecting you. Anyone targeting you will know you became invisible. Low, all, covert, 1-3 charges. Ring of Limited Wishes: You may make a limited wish. Choose one of: a magic item of your choice (if another character already has it, it will be transferred to you), recharge a magic item you possess, protection from all actions this Turn, or the complete alignment of another character. High, magical, secret, 1-2 charges. Rod of Divination: When activated, you learn the identity of a random magic item in a character's possession. High, magical, secret, 1-6 charges. Rod of Nullification: Nullifies a magic item, rendering it useless and removes it from victory condition consideration. If a player is targeted, a random item in their possession is affected. Each attempt uses a charge. Even, magical, secret, 1-3 charges. Rod of Telekinesis: By targeting a character, you may lift one of their magic items (randomly determined) into your possession. High, magical, secret, 1-6 charges. Staff of Command: You may choose another character's target this Turn, but not their action. Even, magical, covert, 1-3 charges. Sword of Dancing: When activated, the sword leaps into the air by itself, attacking the target of your choice. It has an even chance of slaying that character. If it fails, it will stay active, but randomly choose another character to attack on the next Turn. Once it slays a target, it will deactivate. Each Turn it is active will use one charge. Even, physical, secret, 1-6 charges. Sword of Slashing: Slays a character with a large spray of blood. Even, physical, overt, unlimited charges. Wand of Holding: Zaps a character, preventing them from moving this Turn, but after they have had a chance to act. All attacks targeting them will have an improved chance of success. Improve, magical, secret, 1-3 charges. Wand of Shrinking: Zaps a character into a minuscule version of themself. They may not take any action on the next Turn. High, magical, secret, 1-6 charges. Wand of Weakening: By zapping a character with this magic item, you reduce their chance to resist any physical effects that Turn. Reduce, magical, secret, 1-6 charges.
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Post by Pleonast on Oct 15, 2008 14:27:14 GMT -5
Ok, that's it. Now to fix the mark up so it's more readable.
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Post by NAF1138 on Oct 15, 2008 14:41:39 GMT -5
Game SetupThe setup of the game is random. Before the game starts, each player is given a randomly determined character. The class is randomly chosen, each equally likely. Each character has two-thirds chance to be Lawful and one-third chance to be Chaotic. Each character has five-sixths chance to be Good and one-sixth chance to be Evil. Help me out with my math here, because I supect that this is going to be your games stumbling block. How many chaotic good characters are you expecting there will be? Give or take if everything roles predictably. There are a max of 23 players allowed in the game? 1/6 of them will be evil. I think that number is low even if you round up. Again, unless I am doing my math wrong. (Very possible) 1/5 sounds like a better number to me based on the no vanilla aspect of the game, particully since some of them will no doubt be chaotic evil, which could put a crimp into possible scum success. These are just my knee jerk thoughts.
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Post by Pleonast on Oct 15, 2008 15:27:11 GMT -5
No maximum number of players, assuming I sufficiently fill out the number of magic items. Practically, I would prefer in the range of 15-20 players.
Most likely distributions would be 15 = 8 LG + 4 CG + 2 LE + 1 CE 20 = 11 LG + 6 CG + 2 LE + 1 CE 25 = 14 LG + 7 CG + 3 LE + 1 CE 30 = 17 LG + 8 CG + 3 LE + 2 CE
That might seem low, but there are not any strong investigative powers to find scum or protective powers against the Evil kill. Plus, the CG players will not willingly be sacrificed, which gives the Evil players more space to hide in.
Also, the statistics indicate that while the numbers I gave above are the most likely, the distribution has a long tail into the higher numbers.
But, as usual, my rules are tricky to balance.
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Post by NAF1138 on Oct 15, 2008 15:47:42 GMT -5
No maximum number of players, assuming I sufficiently fill out the number of magic items. Practically, I would prefer in the range of 15-20 players. Most likely distributions would be 15 = 8 LG + 4 CG + 2 LE + 1 CE 20 = 11 LG + 6 CG + 2 LE + 1 CE 25 = 14 LG + 7 CG + 3 LE + 1 CE 30 = 17 LG + 8 CG + 3 LE + 2 CE That might seem low, but there are not any strong investigative powers to find scum or protective powers against the Evil kill. Plus, the CG players will not willingly be sacrificed, which gives the Evil players more space to hide in. Also, the statistics indicate that while the numbers I gave above are the most likely, the distribution has a long tail into the higher numbers. But, as usual, my rules are tricky to balance. I picked 23 because of the number of items you listed. Personally, the more I think about it, the more I think that smaller is better. I would consider placing an 18 player cap on the game. Just a thought. It will keep the balance a bit tighter. Either that or go the other extreme and say every magic item can be repeated only once and then make is a mamoth 40+ player game so that it will, again, statistically balance out. My problem with the number of chaotic good is that the more there are the less fun it will be to play because the harder it will be to survive to the end. It is easier to win as a survivor in situations where there are few other survivors. In a large game you are handing out an almost guaranteed loss to roughly 8 players on the towns side at the start of the game. I am not saying it can't work, I am just saying that it's something to think about.
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Post by KidVermicious on Oct 15, 2008 16:08:38 GMT -5
Are you ... are you in my head? I was just starting to build a Waterdeep/Forgotten Realms game, with transferable items and variable win conditions based on alignment.
This IS a restricted wavelength, you know...
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Post by Pleonast on Oct 15, 2008 16:27:22 GMT -5
NAF, you make a good point about the survivor roles and the difficulty of their victory condition. But the Lawful characters have an equally difficult condition. They can lynch perfectly and still lose due to failing to collect the magic items. Harsh, but balanced? Anyway, my preference is in the 15-20 player range, so I think it's not unreasonable on that account. I will keep thinking about. I may have to give in and make a simple simulation or two. KidV, sorry, you should've used a stronger encryption. I bet my clearance level is higher than yours anyway. Feel free to steal ideas from me. My philosophy is open source. If you want help on the rules or balancing, I'm happy to help. I don't do color, though.
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Post by KidVermicious on Oct 15, 2008 18:02:36 GMT -5
KidV, sorry, you should've used a stronger encryption. I bet my clearance level is higher than yours anyway. Feel free to steal ideas from me. My philosophy is open source. If you want help on the rules or balancing, I'm happy to help. I don't do color, though. I'm no good at crunching numbers, so I can't help your there - my worry is at more of a meta level. It looks like you've basically got a no-vanilla game going. No-vanilla is very hard to balance, because you've got a lot of gain with all those powers - one good player in the right role can tip your balance real easy. On top of that, you've got a purely random element going with the die roles. I'd be worried that your hypothetical good player in the right role could get hot on the dice, and throw your balance completely out of whack. I'm interested to see how it plays out, though, any idea when you're going to run it?
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Trepa Mayfield
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Post by Trepa Mayfield on Oct 15, 2008 19:43:01 GMT -5
What, no love for neutral? Also, the word 'screw' should be in the chaotic win condition. Other than that...uh...how many items are in the hoard in the begenning of the game? 0? 1? More? Is that public?
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Post by storyteller0910 on Oct 15, 2008 22:03:15 GMT -5
What a really awesome game idea, and who ever knew there was someone else out there who played Munchkin?
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Post by Høøpy Frøød on Oct 15, 2008 22:07:49 GMT -5
What a really awesome game idea, and who ever knew there was someone else out there who played Munchkin? I was kind of hoping he'd include the Kneepads of Allure.
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Post by Boozahol Squid, P.I. on Oct 16, 2008 1:50:23 GMT -5
Chicken on your head?
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Post by Høøpy Frøød on Oct 16, 2008 6:25:40 GMT -5
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Post by Hawkmod on Oct 16, 2008 9:40:24 GMT -5
Can I have a laser maser raser banana fana fo faser? Balancing a Munchkin Mafia game just seems wrong. It is pretty clear in the design of the actual game that balancing wasn't a big priority.
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Post by Høøpy Frøød on Oct 16, 2008 9:50:18 GMT -5
Can I have a laser maser raser banana fana fo faser? Balancing a Munchkin Mafia game just seems wrong. It is pretty clear in the design of the actual game that balancing wasn't a big priority. Heathen! You're bringing Star Munchkin into this! Don't make me get out "Soh Soo Mee"!
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Post by Pleonast on Oct 16, 2008 10:48:51 GMT -5
I'm not sure when to run. The holidays are a bad period in general, and I'll be in limited internet areas for a lot of the time. So, I'm thinking in mid Jaunary or there-abouts. I thought four alignments were enough. People already complain when I have that many factions. The initial setup is only the Rod of Disintegration (which is unstealable) is the Hoard. Each character gets one magic item, different from everyone else. Dead characters put all their items in the Hoard. I've actually never played Munchkin, although I'm a big fan of Steve Jackson Games. This is more a reference to back-stabbing, power-hungry dungeon crawlers in general. I welcome ideas for more magic items. They should follow the general pattern of the ones already there. In terms of balance, although this a no vanilla-game, in some sense its very vanilla--no reliable protective or investigative powers against the scum. All character powers and magic items are more for (a hopefully fun) distraction and to advance the Lawful/Chaotic win conditions. And I fully accept die rolls can put things out of wack. That should be clear up front. I've put everything on a die roll including the scum kill, but excepting the lynch, so I hope it all evens out.
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Post by Trepa Mayfield on Oct 16, 2008 22:33:38 GMT -5
I've been thinking about it, and I realise what's been bugging me about it:
People should be allowed to choose their roles in a roleplaying game.
At the beginning of the game, each player should PM their choice of alignmnet and class. Class should be given by default (since any screwing with the game balance will be on their own sholders), but alignment could perhaps be given out as much as possible? Perhaps some would say 'either way', and you could then supply the low-numbered one? But all aspects the roles should NOT be assigned randomly.
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Post by KidVermicious on Oct 17, 2008 11:28:13 GMT -5
Thats hard to do and maintain anything like balance. How about putting the players in a random list and letting them pick their roles from the list of those available, in order?
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Trepa Mayfield
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Post by Trepa Mayfield on Oct 17, 2008 12:51:11 GMT -5
As long as the random list wasn't public.
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Post by KidVermicious on Oct 17, 2008 13:17:44 GMT -5
Right.
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Post by Pleonast on Oct 17, 2008 16:27:35 GMT -5
Remember that classes are public.* Only alignment and magic item is hidden.
I could let players choose their class and then randomly assign their alignment and magic item. Classes are fairly equivalent in power, especially since its not hidden.
*Oops, I see on review that the clause classes are public seems to have been removed in this edit. Does that change any comments?
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