Day One

[Almost Human]

Going along with the crowd. Using other people's reasons for voting. Not making waves. All good indicators though not concrete.

Sometimes the reasons already given are obvious and don't need anything extra to make a vote justifiable and sometimes you may not see a need to make waves or start pointing fingers.

However, over a period of time, if you're consistently staying under the radar in that way it is going to look scummy.

I think scum are starting to evolve though. In the Marvel game (I forget who said it but I think it was Hawk) it was suggested that we start playing more agressively because that's what town tend to do.

Also yes, fluff is a distraction though inevitable at the beginning of a game when everyone's settling in. It would be nice to keep the fluff at the end of the content though. Having said that, scum have been caught out with fluff before so I do think it's good to have there (and more fun)

And I don't see Peek's posts as fluff - they're more of a learning curve ;D

I'm not sure how I'd tell the difference between anti town and pro scum. Anti town is clear to me but I'll have to have a think about pro scum - I suppose a lot of it depends on the particular game set up. Like in this game we don't know any of the roles apart from our own and possibly moleshag's Koopa Troopa so would asking for a role claim in this situation be pro town, anti town, pro scum or just a null tell?

I'm not asking for a role claim btw I'm just using that as an example to find out how you'd view the question.

[KidVermicious]

Peek, I'll just say this, and then I'll shut up about it. I understand that you're here to enjoy yourself, and that your chosen posting style gives you enjoyment. Thats great. But in this case, your enjoyment is antithetical to good game play, and you need to understand that most of us are here to get our enjoyment in the form of good Mafia play. You have the right to swing your arms anywhere you want, but that right stops where my nose starts, you know?

I categorically reject that your cryptic acid-trips add anything to the game in terms of strategy. All they do is amuse a couple players, annoy the rest of us, and create more noise for scum to hide in. Because what you do is so anti-town, it automatically raises my suspicion level concerning you, because I don't understand why a Town player would consistently and purposefully lower the signal-to-noise ratio in a game. If you won't tone it down, I'm going to have no choice but to begin disregarding the content of your posts altogether, and start voting you purely to remove the distraction. If you want to be known around as the crazy guy in the corner chewing on his shoe, great. If you'd like your opinions in a given game to be taken seriously, you're going to have to knock it off. I don't know any better way to say it at this point, I'm sorry.

Seriously. You're an amusing guy, and I'd love to buy you a beer some time. I don't think you're stupid, by any measure, and I'd love to actually, you know, play Mafia with you. So please, pretty please, consider dialing back the Daytime peeker-ocity?

[KidVermicious]

Nov 25, 2008 14:23:14 GMT -5 Almost Human said:

I think scum are starting to evolve though. In the Marvel game (I forget who said it but I think it was Hawk) it was suggested that we start playing more agressively because that's what town tend to do.

Hyper-town is exactly what I was going for in the Marvel game (and it woulda worked, too, if not for that pesky NAF). Hyper-town can work, but it has its drawbacks... at some point, you're forced to do something seriously damaging to your team, or back off and be inconsistent. What Hawk suggested was playing controversially, draw just enough heat over the course of several Days that you evenutally get written off because "scum wouldn't do that".

I'm not sure how I'd tell the difference between anti town and pro scum.

In that anti-town and pro-scum are describing the results of actions, rather than the motivation for said actions, they're the same thing. If the result of a given action is detrimental to a Town win, it's anti-town and pro-scum. The trick is to determine the motivation behind said action. All Town will players will, at some point in a game, do something anti-town, mostly out of ignorance (Town don't have information). Scum know this, and rely on it to hide among our numbers. So just doing something anti-town isn't necessarily a scum tell, but doing TOO MANY anti-town things betrays a motivation, ie you're doing it on purpose.

[Total Ullz]

Nov 25, 2008 14:16:38 GMT -5 Santo Rugger said:

I don't understand why you're apologizing for it?

I do it all the time and never ever once thought it could be a problem. Then you brought it up - and I though: "hmmm, I do that sometimes" and then I read my own posts... and I don't just do it sometimes!
I seem to do it all the time!

I didn't know it could be a problem before (but I'll keep it down in the furture)

[KidVermicious]

Nanook has one post in this thread, yesterday, where-in he discussed fluff, talked about anti-town/pro-scum, and disagreed with FxOD regarding random voting. This automatically raises him a nudge above baseline on my Suspicio-meter, but Nanook generally lurks... I don't think I've ever seen him in a game where his post count wasn't near the bottom.

mmouse has one post, where-in she says "It seems like each time I refresh, there's another page!", and then generally handwaves about the fluff content and asks neutral questions. That first statement is highly suspicious to me - it basically admits that she's been around, and watching. I'm having trouble passing this off as n00b behavior, she's helping mod the current Dope game.

DBI has two posts. One where she advises that she can't access from work, and another wherein the insolent heathen dares to defend molefan (I keed).

Blockster has two posts... one fluff, and one wherein he claims "out-of-townieness", gives the molefan debate a big "meh", and votes ed.

Mhaye has four posts. Two are fluff (sorry, man, your grudges speech is fluff at this point ), one is general stretegy, and in one he engages molefan regarding the roleclaim. One question, Mhaye...

So to the important question. Is there some significance to ...


mushrooms?

Whats this about?

Boozy has 1 fluff post since joining the game. He came in late, I'm willing to cut him some slack.

Vote mmouse9979[/color] for now.

[storyteller0910]

Nov 24, 2008 23:40:00 GMT -5 Santo Rugger said:

Nov 24, 2008 20:59:52 GMT -5 ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies said:

Do NOT get me started on the use of "investigator"....

Don't you mean detective? ;D

I wrote up a post at work describing what I thought of the whole story / SpEd debacle. It's quite different than what either of the participants had to say on the matter. I'm not going to rewrite it tonight, so I'll post it in the morning.

Nov 24, 2008 23:40:00 GMT -5 Santo Rugger said:

I wrote up a post at work describing what I thought of the whole story / SpEd debacle. It's quite different than what either of the participants had to say on the matter. I'm not going to rewrite it tonight, so I'll post it in the morning.

I'd be very interested to hear whatever point you were planning to make. If you don't have access to the full post, would you mind posting a synopsis?

[storyteller0910]

Nov 25, 2008 14:29:25 GMT -5 KidVermicious said:

I categorically reject that your cryptic acid-trips add anything to the game in terms of strategy. All they do is amuse a couple players, annoy the rest of us, and create more noise for scum to hide in.

Having watched peeker in the previous [Marvel] game, I'll say that if peeker is Town then I cordially disagree with the above. peeker, and other players who post in quirky or unusual ways, get people riled up. They get everyone talking, and acting, and they heighten emotions such that the possibility of Scum slips increases. They also create difficult dilemmas for the Scum regarding how to handle the player in question both by Day and by Night, and I'm in favor of dilemmas for the Scum. I know others have disagreed with this, but peeker himself, and the way you guys reacted to him, was a major contributor to the Scum loss in Marvel.

The problem, of course, comes around if peeker is Scum, because then his style makes it next to impossible to pin him down. For that reason his rope will likely be a short one, and deservedly so. But I reject the contention that the style has no benefit.

----------

Regarding the ongoing discussion of fluff: it's all fair enough, and reasonable. But something about it troubles me in a way I can't quite put into words. If I were Scum, and in the first third of the first Day the overwhelming Town consensus was: let's lynch a fluffer, I'd do two things: (1) agree heartily with the Town consensus; and (2) post little-to-no fluff. It's not really all that difficult to muster substantive contributions as Scum, especially in the early game.

So as a strategy, it's already been rendered unlikely to work. And it takes the focus off players who haven't been fluffing at all, which... well, I'll tell you what. If you're Scum, why not roll in with some elaborate fluff related theories - theories that sound pretty good - and post the crap out of them? If you can get folks to agree with your hypothesis, then you're golden, because all your fluff about fluff won't be regarded as fluff, ya know?

Could be paranoia, but NAF, Kid, I've got half an eye on the two of you.

[KidVermicious]

Nov 25, 2008 15:27:47 GMT -5 storyteller0910 said:

Having watched peeker in the previous [Marvel] game, I'll say that if peeker is Town then I cordially disagree with the above. peeker, and other players who post in quirky or unusual ways, get people riled up. They get everyone talking, and acting, and they heighten emotions such that the possibility of Scum slips increases. They also create difficult dilemmas for the Scum regarding how to handle the player in question both by Day and by Night, and I'm in favor of dilemmas for the Scum. I know others have disagreed with this, but peeker himself, and the way you guys reacted to him, was a major contributor to the Scum loss in Marvel.

The problem, of course, comes around if peeker is Scum, because then his style makes it next to impossible to pin him down. For that reason his rope will likely be a short one, and deservedly so. But I reject the contention that the style has no benefit.

----------

Regarding the ongoing discussion of fluff: it's all fair enough, and reasonable. But something about it troubles me in a way I can't quite put into words. If I were Scum, and in the first third of the first Day the overwhelming Town consensus was: let's lynch a fluffer, I'd do two things: (1) agree heartily with the Town consensus; and (2) post little-to-no fluff. It's not really all that difficult to muster substantive contributions as Scum, especially in the early game.

So as a strategy, it's already been rendered unlikely to work. And it takes the focus off players who haven't been fluffing at all, which... well, I'll tell you what. If you're Scum, why not roll in with some elaborate fluff related theories - theories that sound pretty good - and post the crap out of them? If you can get folks to agree with your hypothesis, then you're golden, because all your fluff about fluff won't be regarded as fluff, ya know?

Could be paranoia, but NAF, Kid, I've got half an eye on the two of you.

I don't think I can agree with that. I can't speak for my teammates, but cornerstones of my crusade against Peek in that game were the claim (miller), and the way his claim evolved. If I ever invoked his posting style (I don't think I did, but I'm not going to go check), it was tangential to the main thrust of my case. I distinctly remember commentary on the scum board to the effect of "oh, well, he isn't getting lynched, but at least he's causing chaos". His posts were helping us, not hindering or exposing us.

And thats my main complaint, now that I'm on the other side of that coin... his posting style causes unnecessary controversy, and creates distractions. This is anti-town. I don't believe that peekerosity itself causes any dilemna for scum.

Regarding your second point, I've never been a very fluffy player. There's nothing wrong with a little banter, but I firmly believe that too much fluff, in general, is anti-town. This game started with a larger than normal amount, and since we've got a longer Day to work with, it seems a good time to address it to me. If we're still doing this Day Two or Three, we're going to be in trouble.

Of course scum aren't going to fluff as much, now that the points' been raised, but that's only half the battle. The fluff itself is anti-town - scum can fluff with the best of them, or, to your point, attack the fluff with the best of them. Thats a big bag of WIFOM, but either way, it's cover, and it needed to be addressed.

[KidVermicious]

Oh, and as long as we're talking meta-strategy, I firmly believe letting Peek live was anti-town. No fault of his own, but he was a claimed miller, and we (scum) weren't giving him any chance to confirm his towny status... he should have been lynched on general principles. Any miller that can't find another way to confirm his claimed alignment should be lynched, post haste. Town got that one right despite themselves... he was saved out of poor play, not good play.

I will always advocate for the lynch of a claimed miller.

[NAF1138]

Nov 25, 2008 15:27:47 GMT -5 storyteller0910 said:

Could be paranoia, but NAF, Kid, I've got half an eye on the two of you.

Good, I would trust you less if you weren't keeping half an eye on me.

I didn't mean to get into the whole treatise on game theory, that's why the one big disclaimer post was so long, so I could write it all up and then drop it. But I...have poor impulse control sometimes with that stuff.

Anywho, anyone else have anything to say about Mr. Special Ed? I thought that discussion was tre-interesting.

oh yeah,

unvote


Mmm, one other thing. We can all agree that scum aren't stupid right? So one of two things is blindingly obvious to scum right now, and we haven't talked about it yet.

FCoD is either scum or a power role, since he is clearly not vanilla. I have gone back and forth on if I wanted to bring this up or not, but I think it needs to be done or it becomes a sort of magic bag.

Cowman, you have anything to say for yourself?

[KidVermicious]

[Total Ullz]

Nov 25, 2008 16:11:32 GMT -5 NAF1138 said:

Mmm, one other thing. We can all agree that scum aren't stupid right? So one of two things is blindingly obvious to scum right now, and we haven't talked about it yet.

FCoD is either scum or a power role, since he is clearly not vanilla. I have gone back and forth on if I wanted to bring this up or not, but I think it needs to be done or it becomes a sort of magic bag.

Cowman, you have anything to say for yourself?

I have been thinking SO hard to ask that question without asking it. I guess your way is better - just to ask...

Again we're back to pro-Town (asking) not really being anti-scum (asking)...

[Nanook]

Nov 25, 2008 15:09:27 GMT -5 KidVermicious said:

Nanook has one post in this thread, yesterday, where-in he discussed fluff, talked about anti-town/pro-scum, and disagreed with FxOD regarding random voting. This automatically raises him a nudge above baseline on my Suspicio-meter, but Nanook generally lurks... I don't think I've ever seen him in a game where his post count wasn't near the bottom.

This is true, I am almost always near the bottom. It's not so much lurking as it is posting only when I have something I feel needs to be said, and not posting fluff basically at all. You can probably count the number of Night posts I've made on one hand(not counting Conspiracy, which had Night strategy talk allowed). I generally try to make sure that all my posts are substantive and actually contribute to the game at hand. I'm probably the most anti-fluff person in any of our games. Look at the way I acted as Bounty Hunter in the Gastard game. The people I hit were mostly ones that were distracting the game from Mafia, posting fluff and playing with the toys that the mods left to cause chaos. Specific to this game, I haven't posted much since we started on a weekend, and those are bad times generally for me to post.

I picked up on it as well NAF, re: FCOD. I wasn't sure if I wanted to mention it due to fear of outting a power role, but since the cat's out of the bag now we might as well discuss it. It reminds me highly of the (sort of) slip I made in Conspiracy that outted me. I'd like to hear what he has to say about it.

About Ed, I'm still a little suspicious, but there's no reason to rush into anything since we have like a week before the deadline. His answer seems reasonable on it's face, but there's still something niggling there. I'm not sure I can articulate what though.

[KidVermicious]

Ok, I've reread him 3x now, and I can safely say I've got no idea WTF ya'll are talking about.

Post number?

[Almost Human]

Nov 25, 2008 16:11:32 GMT -5 NAF1138 said:

Nov 25, 2008 15:27:47 GMT -5 storyteller0910 said:

Could be paranoia, but NAF, Kid, I've got half an eye on the two of you.

Good, I would trust you less if you weren't keeping half an eye on me.

I didn't mean to get into the whole treatise on game theory, that's why the one big disclaimer post was so long, so I could write it all up and then drop it. But I...have poor impulse control sometimes with that stuff.

Anywho, anyone else have anything to say about Mr. Special Ed? I thought that discussion was tre-interesting.

oh yeah,

unvote


Mmm, one other thing. We can all agree that scum aren't stupid right? So one of two things is blindingly obvious to scum right now, and we haven't talked about it yet.

FCoD is either scum or a power role, since he is clearly not vanilla. I have gone back and forth on if I wanted to bring this up or not, but I think it needs to be done or it becomes a sort of magic bag.

Cowman, you have anything to say for yourself?

Re FCOD I thought of those two options as well so I guess most people have. But I also considered it might simply have been because he is a vanilla town but he has a different name. If I understand the SMB game correctly, there are more than one Koppa Troopa so I imagine most people who aren't vanilla and who believed molefan would assume all the vanilla town are Koopa Troopers. If that isn't the case then that could be another reason for FCOD to ask the question but without making it obvious he was vanilla too.

As for Mr Special. I've played with him a lot on the FB site and I'm the worst person to ask because I always think he's town, at least to start with. It's a habit I'm trying very hard to break!

[NAF1138]

Nov 25, 2008 16:32:01 GMT -5 KidVermicious said:

Ok, I've reread him 3x now, and I can safely say I've got no idea WTF ya'll are talking about.

Post number?

Really?

I would like to hold off saying why until we have more people respond actually.

[Idle Thoughts]

Vote count

Miteymouse - 2 votes (Totallost, Chucara)
Mr Special Ed - 1 vote (misterblockey)
mmouse - 1 vote (KidV)

[Santo Rugger]

Let's see if I can do this without fucking up the coding. Most bolding is mine, and that's what I'll be addressing.

Nov 23, 2008 19:15:58 GMT -5 storyteller0910 said:

Here's the thing:

From reading molefan's comments regarding the Skrull Planet game subsequent to the game I've come to understand that molefan has his own very specific ideas about what constitutes good pro-Town strategy in Mafia, and that his ideas are completely and totally antithetical to my own. He's also very clearly less than thrilled about what he perceives as poor play on the part of Towns. But his strategic views - while, again, I disagree with them - are not in and of themselves evidence of scumminess, and we're not going to get anywhere spending the whole Day discussing him in the way that we're discussing him.

I interpreted the first part to mean that story thought molefan claiming was a bad idea. I read the second part to mean that bad ideas are not necessaraly scummy. So far, so good.

Nov 23, 2008 19:45:14 GMT -5 storyteller0910 said:

Because I've played this game over and over and over and over and over and over and I have watched some variation on the current theme play out over and over and over and over and over and over and over. No one's voting for him yet, but here's how this will go: we'll putz around talking about his claim for two or three more real-life days. Nothing useful will emerge from the discussion, because ultimately a Day One vanilla claim - while I think it's unwise and reflective of a principally self-centered game-view - isn't really Scummy in any meaningful sense. Eventually, a few hardy souls will try to change the subject, and a few votes will be placed on someone. They'll role-claim, and the whole Town will back off. Then, toward the deadline, with no better obvious option, there will be a rush of votes for molefan, who will be lynched.

In this post, story is basically saying that lynching mole*is a bad idea (which he's already said isn't scummy). This part of the argument is pretty null, as any of the four combinations of their alignments could produce that result.
*specifically, lynching him for claiming Vanilla.

Nov 24, 2008 7:52:15 GMT -5 Special Ed said:

Something about this displeases me. I can almost see this as a set-up. So far, the only even mildly suspicious thing has been molefan/shaggy's claim. And this seems to be a basis for casting suspicion on anyone who, as we approach the end of Day 1, decides to vote based on this.

Turns out, SpEd was talking about story setting up an "I told you so." Which makes perfect sense if you assume story is scum. At the time, I thought he meant that story was defending moley, and that the situation was set up in advance (on the scum boards), hence it was already set up.

Nov 24, 2008 8:31:49 GMT -5 storyteller0910 said:

Huh. That's funny, and interesting. So I'll offer the following challenge: I'll give you a cookie if you can show me, in either of the posts you quoted, any indication that I find or am attempting to suggest that a vote for molefan/shaggy on the basis of the reasoning so far presented is Scummy or worthy of suspicion. I don't, precisely because I've seen Townies - aided by enthusiastic Scum, of course - make this same mistake so many times.

In this post, story gets a bit more defensive than I've seen him get in the past. He basically says that, if molefan is lynched, that scum will probably be on the bandwagon.

I do think that a last minute rush of votes for molefan, on the basis of no real reasoning at all, would be a very bad idea, which is not the same as thinking anyone who does it is scummy. That sort of simplistic approach - "anyone who disagrees with me strategically speaking is likely to be Scum" - is exactly what I'd argue against.

But then he throws in a caveat that that's not really what he meant, even though he just said scum would be fueling the fire.

This seemed more clear to me yesterday before I deleted the NotePad window where I had typed it out then (I usually have like 25 Windows open at work). Regardless, it seems like story is saying a whole bunch of things that aren't exactly contradictory, but that can be read several ways and end up quite confusing*. The part I don't understand is why SpEd is getting heat for interpreting it in a way different than the way story claims he meant it, when the other interpretation is quite valid.

[Santo Rugger]

Woops, forgot the:

*Maybe it's just because I'm tired as [insert favorite adjective here].

[Santo Rugger]

Nov 25, 2008 16:45:17 GMT -5 NAF1138 said:

Nov 25, 2008 16:32:01 GMT -5 KidVermicious said:

Ok, I've reread him 3x now, and I can safely say I've got no idea WTF ya'll are talking about.

Post number?

Really?

I would like to hold off saying why until we have more people respond actually.

It's pretty glaringly obvious, though, isn't it?

[NAF1138]

Nov 25, 2008 17:11:42 GMT -5 Santo Rugger said:

Nov 25, 2008 16:45:17 GMT -5 NAF1138 said:

Really?

I would like to hold off saying why until we have more people respond actually.

It's pretty glaringly obvious, though, isn't it?

Well to you and me, but apperantly not to everyone.

[storyteller0910]

Nov 25, 2008 17:58:40 GMT -5 NAF1138 said:

Nov 25, 2008 17:11:42 GMT -5 Santo Rugger said:

It's pretty glaringly obvious, though, isn't it?

Well to you and me, but apperantly not to everyone.

I think most of us get it by now. The thing that worries me is how much the discussion that is about to ensue will reveal about the vanilla/nonvanilla status of the participants. But so be it.

The key question is: FCoD is either a nonvanilla Townie or Scum. What of it? Do we really want to push this? To force a role claim? I take the position that we don't. I think if FCoD is Town, he's on notice that the Scum now know that he has a power, and he'll have to use his own judgment regarding how to proceed. If he's not, well, we've got a firm eye on him, and the game is long; he won't be able to survive forever.

Thoughts?

[NAF1138]

Nov 25, 2008 18:48:57 GMT -5 storyteller0910 said:

I think if FCoD is Town, he's on notice that the Scum now know that he has a power, and he'll have to use his own judgment regarding how to proceed. If he's not, well, we've got a firm eye on him, and the game is long; he won't be able to survive forever.

I am more than ok with that acutally. But I didn't want it to be the elephant in the room that only our doc didn' pick up on. I clearly wasn't the only one to notice, just the only one to say something. And I want FCoD to know that we noticed. Otherwise the whole thing gets magic baggy in a bad way.

[Nanook]

Nov 25, 2008 18:48:57 GMT -5 storyteller0910 said:

The key question is: FCoD is either a nonvanilla Townie or Scum. What of it? Do we really want to push this? To force a role claim? I take the position that we don't. I think if FCoD is Town, he's on notice that the Scum now know that he has a power, and he'll have to use his own judgment regarding how to proceed. If he's not, well, we've got a firm eye on him, and the game is long; he won't be able to survive forever.

Thoughts?

It's a fair thought. If we press it, he's almost certainly going to claim SOMETHING, legitimately or not. A Day 1 claim is generally respected, so we'll all back off. The thing is though, it might be worth it anyways, for the information it generates. That depends on what role(assuming he's town) he is. Some questioning, back and forth, followed by a Mason claim? The information might be more valuable than the outting. A doctor or detective claim? Probably not worth the cost. The question becomes, how do we decide which has the better EV?

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

My thought is that story has summed up my views pretty much exactly.

[peekercpa]

Ok. Can someone just give me a page number (or range)? I honestly don't have a clue what you all are talking about. I am going to go back and see what I see but a little help here would be appreciated.

[NAF1138]

Nov 25, 2008 19:17:30 GMT -5 peekercpa said:

Ok. Can someone just give me a page number (or range)? I honestly don't have a clue what you all are talking about. I am going to go back and see what I see but a little help here would be appreciated.

Handy tool for everyone. If you go to the member list you can pull up every member's profile and then search for just posts from that player.

Take a look at FCoD's first post from toDay. It was probably easy to miss mixed in there with all the other early day junk.

[ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]

If I end up roasting for this, so be it. I don't really see a downside to pointing it out.

Nov 22, 2008 12:48:20 GMT -5 The Real FCOD said:

Umm...where does it mention Koopa Troopa in the Vanilla Town PM that Idle posted?

You have no powers to speak of.

You are aligned with the Town.

You win when all the people who are aligned with Scum are dead.

Care to explain?

--FCOD

There is a short list of reasons why FlyingFooOfDoom would make such a post.

[NAF1138]

Nov 25, 2008 19:26:34 GMT -5 ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies said:

If I end up roasting for this, so be it. I don't really see a downside to pointing it out.

Nov 22, 2008 12:48:20 GMT -5 The Real FCOD said:

Umm...where does it mention Koopa Troopa in the Vanilla Town PM that Idle posted?



Care to explain?

--FCOD

There is a short list of reasons why FlyingFooOfDoom would make such a post.

Nah. I kinda wanted to see if FCoD knew why it was obvious, but I suppose it was so obvious that subterfuge wasn't really necessary as much as it is annoying.

On the other hand, people really should know about being able to read just a single players posts by going to their profile. It's a handy feature of these boards.

[Zeriel]

I can't tell if you guys are grasping at a straw or have a serious case of the clevers, with regard to FCOD.