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Day One
Nov 24, 2008 8:31:49 GMT -5
Post by storyteller0910 on Nov 24, 2008 8:31:49 GMT -5
Something about this displeases me. I can almost see this as a set-up. So far, the only even mildly suspicious thing has been molefan/shaggy's claim. And this seems to be a basis for casting suspicion on anyone who, as we approach the end of Day 1, decides to vote based on this. Huh. That's funny, and interesting. So I'll offer the following challenge: I'll give you a cookie if you can show me, in either of the posts you quoted, any indication that I find or am attempting to suggest that a vote for molefan/shaggy on the basis of the reasoning so far presented is Scummy or worthy of suspicion. I don't, precisely because I've seen Townies - aided by enthusiastic Scum, of course - make this same mistake so many times. I do think that a last minute rush of votes for molefan, on the basis of no real reasoning at all, would be a very bad idea, which is not the same as thinking anyone who does it is scummy. That sort of simplistic approach - "anyone who disagrees with me strategically speaking is likely to be Scum" - is exactly what I'd argue against. But your mischaracterization of my position is duly noted. The point is, by the end of the Day, it shouldn't be the best thing we have. If we concentrate solely on molefan's role claim, it will be. We ought to move on (and, for the most part, we have, which is good). An important point, and one that piques my interest: why should things have changed now that shaggy is here? It seems to me that if someone thought molefan was suspicious before, and thought so genuinely rather than as a Scum trick, that the swap-in of shaggy shouldn't alter a sincere suspicion. If mole/shaggy is Town, I think "things will have changed now with shaggy here" primarily for the Scum, who recognize that without molefan's tendency toward impulsiveness, it'll be harder to get shaggy lynched. What say ye, Mr Special Ed? Why has anything changed wrt moleshag's alignment and any suspicion that might be directed toward him?
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Day One
Nov 24, 2008 9:00:46 GMT -5
Post by shaggy on Nov 24, 2008 9:00:46 GMT -5
I think the one sort of good thing from mole will be looking at peoples reaction and talk, so since i have the day off work I am going to go back and reread and I will in a bit post my thoughts on peoples reaction and therefore possibbly Scum....as I said I can not undo what has been done but if I can turn it around to help the town, then it will be worth it...as i said more to come in a bit....gone to reread
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Day One
Nov 24, 2008 9:02:28 GMT -5
Post by Zeriel on Nov 24, 2008 9:02:28 GMT -5
This isn't rhetorical; when someone starts pointing fingers and slinging votes for lurkers, I like to check that we both use the word the same way before arguing. Personally, I like letting people dig a nice deep hole when talking about lurkers -- this is an area we've (hell, I've) caught scum in more than once because it's easy to be inconsistent.
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Day One
Nov 24, 2008 9:03:20 GMT -5
Post by shaggy on Nov 24, 2008 9:03:20 GMT -5
oh and I have not played on this board before so please bare with me....trying to get a handle on how to get words in colour and do the appropriate quote thing and stufff.....sorry for any problems....
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Day One
Nov 24, 2008 9:07:30 GMT -5
Post by Zeriel on Nov 24, 2008 9:07:30 GMT -5
I've seen enough already to know that I'm suspicious of Mr. Special Ed (for smudging story based on a "misunderstanding" of story's clearly stated point) and, to a lesser extent, peekercpa (for the random sweary crap the other night). I'm in agreement that molefan/shaggy's frustration expressed in non-this-game venues makes his claim a null tell.
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Day One
Nov 24, 2008 9:10:24 GMT -5
Post by Høøpy Frøød on Nov 24, 2008 9:10:24 GMT -5
- And in "Gastard" I didn't make any role claim at all, at least not until I was practically already dead anyway, but I'd pretty much killed myself already by then.. Didn't you claim Leper in the Gastard game? Or am I thinking of somebody else? It was pedescribe who claimed leper.
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Day One
Nov 24, 2008 9:17:55 GMT -5
Post by Høøpy Frøød on Nov 24, 2008 9:17:55 GMT -5
So a quick run down of the day so far: molefan is 40 - a mere child (either that or my maths is crap) No, your math is right. But the math also works with any number 12 n + 4, where n is any positive integer. molefan is 28.
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Day One
Nov 24, 2008 9:23:00 GMT -5
Post by Høøpy Frøød on Nov 24, 2008 9:23:00 GMT -5
Then again, a no-lynch would also be okay with me if we really don't have a good target, and we stand to gain no information from lynching a person. I'd rather lynch a townie that gives us information about five other players than hope to randomly select a scum member by means of random.org. Sure, we might get lucky, but the odds just aren't that good. No lynch is bad. You don't want one in the vast majority of mafia setups. Vote analysis is a big part of the game, and "no lynches" reduce its usefulness dramatically. Random votes are only used to spur discussion and to give preliminary vote distributions (a la BlaM's pseudo-random scum vote idea). No one should ever have a random vote on someone at the end of the day.
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Day One
Nov 24, 2008 9:25:44 GMT -5
Post by The Real FCOD on Nov 24, 2008 9:25:44 GMT -5
Boy, do I hate Day One.
Unless someone does something really "out there", it's probably going to come down to random.org for my vote.
Just puttin' it out there.
Sorry to see you go moley.
--FCOD
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Day One
Nov 24, 2008 9:26:22 GMT -5
Post by Høøpy Frøød on Nov 24, 2008 9:26:22 GMT -5
Because I've played this game over and over and over and over and over and over and I have watched some variation on the current theme play out over and over and over and over and over and over and over. No one's voting for him yet, but here's how this will go: we'll putz around talking about his claim for two or three more real-life days. Nothing useful will emerge from the discussion, because ultimately a Day One vanilla claim - while I think it's unwise and reflective of a principally self-centered game-view - isn't really Scummy in any meaningful sense. Eventually, a few hardy souls will try to change the subject, and a few votes will be placed on someone. They'll role-claim, and the whole Town will back off. Then, toward the deadline, with no better obvious option, there will be a rush of votes for molefan, who will be lynched. And frankly, I'm sick of that pattern. And honestly, peeker? Characterizing what I'm saying as "sticking up for" molefan tells me you're not really reading my actual posts for comprehension. molefan may be Scum, or he may be Town. I don't know and, for the purposes of this discussion, I don't care. What I care about is the quality of the arguments against him, which is poor, and would be poor regardless of his alignment. oops, I quoted the wrong post from story. I'd been re-reading and went to the right page, but the wrong post. This is the one I meant to refer to. Sorry FTR, I agree with story on this. And I don't think it's any scum gambit on his part to provide defense for moley/shaggy.
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Day One
Nov 24, 2008 9:28:23 GMT -5
Post by Høøpy Frøød on Nov 24, 2008 9:28:23 GMT -5
Boy, do I hate Day One. Unless someone does something really "out there", it's probably going to come down to random.org for my vote. Just puttin' it out there.--FCOD Understand that will make you look extremely suspicious because random.org votes are pretty much anti-town at the end of the Day. It's voting without any sort of culpability or explanation. It's worse than voting no lynch, IMO.
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Santo Rugger
Mome Rath
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Day One
Nov 24, 2008 9:50:21 GMT -5
Post by Santo Rugger on Nov 24, 2008 9:50:21 GMT -5
Wow, Hoopy, way to steal my thunder. But seriously, your last series of posts, specifically 156-160, are ones I would have made had I gotten to work on time this morning.
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Day One
Nov 24, 2008 10:07:46 GMT -5
Post by Almost Human on Nov 24, 2008 10:07:46 GMT -5
So a quick run down of the day so far: molefan is 40 - a mere child (either that or my maths is crap) No, your math is right. But the math also works with any number 12 n + 4, where n is any positive integer. molefan is 28. I should have known - maths sucks. Going to have another read. I was peeved with but not suspicious of moley so I'll see if anything else jumps out.
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Day One
Nov 24, 2008 10:29:49 GMT -5
Post by shaggy on Nov 24, 2008 10:29:49 GMT -5
ok after rereading here are my thoughts on everybody: PEEK: at first a little suportive of MOLE, then became sarcastic to people. Verry aggressive towards people, maybe the way that person plays but does seem a little to aggressive, like that person is overcompensating for being SCUM....maybe not but it is a thought. TOTAL LOST: suspected MOLE from the beggening, but so would I had I been someone else in this game. so I can not really find fault to much, TOTAL went on to want to possibly vote PEEK for being rude, well since my last paragraph sums up my opinion, I must agree and therefor at this point have TOTAL be as town for now. FCOD: was missreading and apear to be skimming....which is a SCUM thing, so not alot to go on but does raise my Scumdar..... MR. SPECIAL ED: I have as town but the part of this smells like a set up, does not sit well with me.....a set up by whom the MOD? yeah i could see that, NOT!!!!.....Bad move on MOLE's part, not to be hard or mean on him but I can not really say no, but a set up....I just don't see it.... KID: Am I missing something cause you said something along the lines of the only fib maybe that I am town....are you talking about a past game here, cause other wise to me it screams you just came right out and said your SCUM? ? The rest: I think is eigther Town, for understanding it was a bad move but still ok or I have not much to go on yet. Sorry i know this maybe long, and if I need to go back and actually make quotes I will....but this is my thoughts so far....
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Day One
Nov 24, 2008 10:40:22 GMT -5
Post by The Real FCOD on Nov 24, 2008 10:40:22 GMT -5
Hoopy, unless someone does something suspicious, we're all basically voting randomly (except the scum, of course). The town has no information, so I reject your assertion that random voting on Day One is anti-town. It's not pro-town either, but I don't see a way that any Day One vote can be pro-town. If you can explain a strategy that the Town should follow for Day One voting, I'm perfectly willing to hear one. I have yet to hear a good one in seven games, so I'm all ears. Shaggy, where was I misreading? Did you say that because I missed Idle's post about character names from the sign-up thread? If so, then you caught me! I didn't read every post in the sign-up thread! LOL As far as peeker goes, he's not really being aggressive... let's just say you'll adjust to him eventually, if such a thing is possible. --FCOD
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Total Ullz
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Day One
Nov 24, 2008 10:43:02 GMT -5
Post by Total Ullz on Nov 24, 2008 10:43:02 GMT -5
TOTAL LOST: suspected MOLE from the beggening, but so would I had I been someone else in this game. so I can not really find fault to much, TOTAL went on to want to possibly vote PEEK for being rude, well since my last paragraph sums up my opinion, I must agree and therefor at this point have TOTAL be as town for now. No - I think you got it all wrong. 1. I didn't "suspect" MOLE - I just called his play anti-town. I didn't know if he/you are Town or Scum. But I don't see the claim as anyway to make me think he/you more Town then scum. 2. I never ever say I would vote Peek - What I did say was this (to MOLE): Uh-huh. Because not claiming at all or partial claiming have worked out SOOO well in the past. First thing: "mmouse" and "mitey mouse" -are they actually the same person? Second thing: I've barely heard from people like Santo and Hockeyguy as yet. Others as well. You guys are usually pretty talkative. Any ideas about this game? I've put the few I have on the table. Right now I'm so ready to vote for you for being just too rude! Just to make thing clear
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Day One
Nov 24, 2008 10:50:21 GMT -5
Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Nov 24, 2008 10:50:21 GMT -5
I wouldn't be worried about post length. We have some...prolific folks around here.
Mr. Special Ed's suspicions of a setup seem contrived to me, but Day 1 debates are largely contrived by default, on both sides. I see what I consider null tells all over the place this early in the game. i will probably end up voting for the "least null", whatever that means.
Within a post or two, the conflicting perspectives on random votes between Hoopy and FlyingFooOfDoom (I'm just going to start calling you that, if you don't mind...) gave me a chuckle.
At least half of the game would be flagged by any reasonable definition of "lurking" at this point, and much of the suspicions being vocalized are toward the people who are actually posting.
I definitely feel Storyteller's pain of the seasoned veteran. Many of us have been here and heard this all before. There is no real formula for success on Day 1 or in the early game, and that is part of what keeps the game fun, imho.
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Day One
Nov 24, 2008 11:00:18 GMT -5
Post by The Real FCOD on Nov 24, 2008 11:00:18 GMT -5
Within a post or two, the conflicting perspectives on random votes between Hoopy and FlyingFooOfDoom (I'm just going to start calling you that, if you don't mind...) gave me a chuckle. LOL, I know. Flying[Anything]OfDoom will catch my attention, but if you don't want to type all that FCOD is fine. Allow me to summarize every Day One: "I'm using random.org" "Random voting is a scum tell!" "No it isn't!" "Yes it is!" "Fucking shit you're whiny bitches. Let's get some beer and drink 'til we can't think. Woot the fucking woot. Or something." "I'm voting for X because he smells like tofu." "I'm voting for Top Dog!" "Scum love tofu!! FOS FOS FOS!!!!" "Oh crap you guys there's 10 minutes left and there are only 3 votes!" [Town lynches X, the Doctor] --FCOD
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Day One
Nov 24, 2008 11:05:28 GMT -5
Post by Høøpy Frøød on Nov 24, 2008 11:05:28 GMT -5
ok after rereading here are my thoughts on everybody: PEEK: at first a little suportive of MOLE, then became sarcastic to people. Verry aggressive towards people, maybe the way that person plays but does seem a little to aggressive, like that person is overcompensating for being SCUM....maybe not but it is a thought. Well, peekercpa might be overcompensating for something, but I don't think it's the status of his scummitude. What you are seeing is peek's style. I've played scum with him once, and town with him once. I've also been a spoiled observor in a few other games he's played. He's always like this. It kind of grows on you the same way athelete's foot does and can be just as irritating. But peeker's ramblings and forcefulness are a null tell for him.
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Total Ullz
Administrator
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Day One
Nov 24, 2008 11:09:23 GMT -5
Post by Total Ullz on Nov 24, 2008 11:09:23 GMT -5
Within a post or two, the conflicting perspectives on random votes between Hoopy and FlyingFooOfDoom (I'm just going to start calling you that, if you don't mind...) gave me a chuckle. LOL, I know. Flying[Anything]OfDoom will catch my attention, but if you don't want to type all that FCOD is fine. Allow me to summarize every Day One: "I'm using random.org" "Random voting is a scum tell!" "No it isn't!" "Yes it is!" "Fucking shit you're whiny bitches. Let's get some beer and drink 'til we can't think. Woot the fucking woot. Or something." "I'm voting for X because he smells like tofu." "I'm voting for Top Dog!" "Scum love tofu!! FOS FOS FOS!!!!" "Oh crap you guys there's 10 minutes left and there are only 3 votes!" [Town lynches X, the Doctor] --FCOD I played in that game too - but just didn't remember you in it I might go back to my random-vote-a-lurker-theory. It will be a random vote placed semi-early on a lurker giving this person a chance to come out and make some decents posts.
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Day One
Nov 24, 2008 11:11:01 GMT -5
Post by Høøpy Frøød on Nov 24, 2008 11:11:01 GMT -5
Hoopy, unless someone does something suspicious, we're all basically voting randomly (except the scum, of course). The town has no information, so I reject your assertion that random voting on Day One is anti-town. It's not pro-town either, but I don't see a way that any Day One vote can be pro-town. If you can explain a strategy that the Town should follow for Day One voting, I'm perfectly willing to hear one. I have yet to hear a good one in seven games, so I'm all ears. Yeah, but if you just vote random at the end of the Day, it means nothing. It creates noise in the vote pattern. At least "no lynch" or a non-vote doesn't create noise. I'm saying that if you don't want to vote, don't vote. At least you have a reason for your actions. Random votes remove all responsibility for the end result of that Day's lynch and are very anti-town. A no lynch, while usually anti-town, can at least have strategic reasoning behind it, even if that reason is nothing more than "I didn't think anyone deserved a vote".
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Day One
Nov 24, 2008 11:13:12 GMT -5
Post by Høøpy Frøød on Nov 24, 2008 11:13:12 GMT -5
NETA: Alternately, if you must vote random at the end of the Day, at least take random from a pool (like totallost's lynch the random lurker thing). It sets in stone the reason for your voting.
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Day One
Nov 24, 2008 11:15:38 GMT -5
Post by The Real FCOD on Nov 24, 2008 11:15:38 GMT -5
Yeah, but if you just vote random at the end of the Day, it means nothing. It creates noise in the vote pattern. At least "no lynch" or a non-vote doesn't create noise. I'm saying that if you don't want to vote, don't vote. At least you have a reason for your actions. Random votes remove all responsibility for the end result of that Day's lynch and are very anti-town. A no lynch, while usually anti-town, can at least have strategic reasoning behind it, even if that reason is nothing more than "I didn't think anyone deserved a vote". It doesn't mean nothing, because you still have a vote on record. Having no vote on record means nothing. Even if you use random.org to choose a target, you'll still have to answer for it later in the game when people are asking you why you voted for the only Doctor. To me, not voting is one of the most anti-town actions one can take. My point is, whether you use random.org or gut suspicions it's basically the same on Day One. Personally, I don't think I've ever needed to use random.org because someone has always pinged me before the end of the Day, but should nobody ping me, I will be voting randomly. And I my vote happens to be for someone extremely pro-Town, I'll have to take responsibility for it later. --FCOD
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Day One
Nov 24, 2008 11:16:51 GMT -5
Post by shaggy on Nov 24, 2008 11:16:51 GMT -5
woops so sorry you are right.....that was to MOLE not to PEEK....sorry read my 5 post it notes wrong....as for the supect vs anti-town...If I was in your shoes I would be saying the same thing....claiming right out of the blue is a choice that is anti-town and looks bad, and I can not take back the claim he did, all I can do is try and move forward with what is in the town's best interest. but sorry for the mess up. trying to catch up and keep things straight.....
FCOD it was not over IDLES post it was MOLE had posted his PM that he got and in it it said that he was vanilla town, but you then went on to post that you did not read anywhere in there it said that he was town just his name......so you missed that in MOLE'S origanal post of his PM.....but you are right that it could be a mistake....it was just something that jumped out at me.....
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Day One
Nov 24, 2008 11:20:08 GMT -5
Post by shaggy on Nov 24, 2008 11:20:08 GMT -5
you all maybe right, about PEEK, after all I have never played with most of you here....so I can only go on what I am seeing....since I do not know how each of you play normally....
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Day One
Nov 24, 2008 11:24:45 GMT -5
Post by The Real FCOD on Nov 24, 2008 11:24:45 GMT -5
FCOD it was not over IDLES post it was MOLE had posted his PM that he got and in it it said that he was vanilla town, but you then went on to post that you did not read anywhere in there it said that he was town just his name......so you missed that in MOLE'S origanal post of his PM.....but you are right that it could be a mistake....it was just something that jumped out at me..... Ok, that's fair, but can you point out where Molefan posted his PM? You're accusing me of skimming and misreading, but you're talking about things that just didn't happen. Molefan claimed that he got a vanilla PM, but he didn't post it. I was confused because I wasn't aware that each player had a unique name. So while I did miss Idle's post about each player having a unique name, I did not misread or skim anything in the game thread (yet ). --FCOD
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Santo Rugger
Mome Rath
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Day One
Nov 24, 2008 11:27:17 GMT -5
Post by Santo Rugger on Nov 24, 2008 11:27:17 GMT -5
Bahh! One more small request, please shaggy? Can we please use one period at a time? Sorry.
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Chucara
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Day One
Nov 24, 2008 11:28:38 GMT -5
Post by Chucara on Nov 24, 2008 11:28:38 GMT -5
Has anyone considered the possibility that molefan/shaggy was/is a town power role and is claiming vanilla early to avoid being targetted by scum? That is a pro-town move in my opinion.. However, it does have some drawbacks - namely that he could be caught in the lie by a town investigator and lynched. *shrug* I don't know. I think molefan is sincerely annoyed by being lynched early last game. (As am I now that I read the spoiler board.. that could've been an interesting role later in the game)
In either case, I don't think shaggy should reclaim anything in response to this post.
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Day One
Nov 24, 2008 11:34:58 GMT -5
Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Nov 24, 2008 11:34:58 GMT -5
Que "lynch all liars" discussion...
I consider lying a component of a complete Mafia toolkit, whether playing town or scum. Yes, it is risky, but so is everything else in this game. It is, I think, a subjective decision we all get to make individually. It can be done well, and it can be done badly.
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Day One
Nov 24, 2008 11:38:04 GMT -5
Post by Almost Human on Nov 24, 2008 11:38:04 GMT -5
ok after rereading here are my thoughts on everybody: PEEK: at first a little suportive of MOLE, then became sarcastic to people. Verry aggressive towards people, maybe the way that person plays but does seem a little to aggressive, like that person is overcompensating for being SCUM....maybe not but it is a thought. TOTAL LOST: suspected MOLE from the beggening, but so would I had I been someone else in this game. so I can not really find fault to much, TOTAL went on to want to possibly vote PEEK for being rude, well since my last paragraph sums up my opinion, I must agree and therefor at this point have TOTAL be as town for now. FCOD: was missreading and apear to be skimming....which is a SCUM thing, so not alot to go on but does raise my Scumdar..... MR. SPECIAL ED: I have as town but the part of this smells like a set up, does not sit well with me.....a set up by whom the MOD? yeah i could see that, NOT!!!!.....Bad move on MOLE's part, not to be hard or mean on him but I can not really say no, but a set up....I just don't see it.... KID: Am I missing something cause you said something along the lines of the only fib maybe that I am town....are you talking about a past game here, cause other wise to me it screams you just came right out and said your SCUM? ? The rest: I think is eigther Town, for understanding it was a bad move but still ok or I have not much to go on yet. Sorry i know this maybe long, and if I need to go back and actually make quotes I will....but this is my thoughts so far.... First off sorry to be a grammar nazi but that was really difficult to read and assimilate. Any chance of some paragraphs or something please? Your case against Peek's been covered so I'll leave that. You accused FCOD of skimming yet you misunderstood who TL was threatening to vote for. I know you're catching up but it was pretty clear what she meant. MR ED as far as I can tell was hinting that Story was setting something up not the mods. Which I disagree with by the way. KID V was scum in the LAST game - dunno what he is in this one. Weirdly, I didn't get a scum vibe from moley but I'm not so sure about you so I went back for a reread. I didn't think his claim itself was a scum tell but looking back he did say that he didn't think any other vanilla town should claim. It's been picked up on already by a couple of others but it's worth noting I think. I don't think it's enough of a backtrack to warrant a vote yet but it may be significant.
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