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Post by Chameleon on Feb 4, 2009 18:50:14 GMT -5
Another town dead Sucks - although I guess that should be expected in a night kill since scum knows everyone's alignment. Which reminds me about the question brought up earlier - has anyone thought anymore about the possibility that there isn't a scum "side" in this game? (This, of course, is assuming that there are any Scum. So far that is not firmly established and must be treated as a likely, but not certain, hypothesis). I am glad I am not the only one who wondered about that. You are now officially on my town list story, way moreso than Pede. Congrats. If you are actually scum that was a crazy brilliant move. I wanted to quote this when I found it so I didn't forget, but was there any further discussion of this idea or any definitive indication of whether there actually is a scum side in this game? I will continue to read to look for evidence - but I honestly can't remember seeing any. How might the game be structured if there isn't scum - I can't quite wrap my head around this at the moment
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Post by roxis on Feb 4, 2009 18:56:28 GMT -5
blockey's initial post: That said for further metagame prevention here's a vanilla pm: Even if there isn't a scum side, there has to be some bad presence, doesn't there? The vanilla pm states that there are "threats to the town". If that doesn't mean scum, could the game possibly be structured with something like 11 vanilla and a serial killer? I can't think of any threat to the town that wouldn't be scum or a possible third party.
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Post by Chameleon on Feb 4, 2009 19:22:38 GMT -5
Even if there isn't a scum side, there has to be some bad presence, doesn't there? The vanilla pm states that there are "threats to the town". If that doesn't mean scum, could the game possibly be structured with something like 11 vanilla and a serial killer? I can't think of any threat to the town that wouldn't be scum or a possible third party. Blocky's initial post to start the game says: "There are beings [*note plural] here that wish the majority of you harm". Town are most definitely being killed - so I think we really really need to try and get a scum today so that we can confirm that this is the way the game is running. Because I haven't played a game here (or with Mr. B.) before I don't know how far off the beaten path themes can go - but I do remember reading that this would be a more "traditional" mafia game - indicating at least a group of town and group of scum. I wonder if we should be suspicious that this question has even been raised (ie: scum possibly suggesting there may not be scum to lead town away from looking for scummy-group-like tells)? I feel this is unlikely though. I'm very perplexed (and intrigued) at the moment - I don't want to be responsible for killing another town so I'm a little apprehensive today.
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Post by roxis on Feb 4, 2009 19:28:20 GMT -5
Well, that's what I mean. There would have to be scum or, at the very least, a third party. Hm. I suppose we shouldn't dwell on it, and just operate under the assumption that there is scum. Otherwise, I'd be clueless as to how to approach the game.
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Post by Chameleon on Feb 4, 2009 19:55:12 GMT -5
I think you might be right Roxis - that's kind of why I'm perplexed - which is not always a good thing
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Post by Captain Pinkies on Feb 4, 2009 20:03:42 GMT -5
I think we need to play this there is scum.. I mean who killed pede then? the house?
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Post by Høøpy Frøød on Feb 4, 2009 20:33:21 GMT -5
I think we need to play this there is scum.. I mean who killed pede then? the house? The thing about that is if you read the death color: "Most of the damage seems to have been done by claws and teeth, however there's a knife jutting out of the center of the body." ...It almost seems as if he was attacked twice.
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Post by Chameleon on Feb 4, 2009 20:40:13 GMT -5
I think we need to play this there is scum.. I mean who killed pede then? the house? The thing about that is if you read the death color: "Most of the damage seems to have been done by claws and teeth, however there's a knife jutting out of the center of the body." ...It almost seems as if he was attacked twice. Good point Hoopy F. Why would someone attack someone who's already dead? It could either be a group effort (and therefore just colour), or could 2 different parties have targetted him - not knowing they attacked the same player - like 2 different groups of scum for example?
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Post by Captain Pinkies on Feb 4, 2009 21:12:51 GMT -5
Could there be a protector or other role at play?
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Post by Chameleon on Feb 4, 2009 22:13:01 GMT -5
There's a chance there's a protector - but how are you associatng that with this situation? I'm not being purposefully obtuse - I think I'm just missing it.
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Post by Captain Pinkies on Feb 4, 2009 23:07:21 GMT -5
it just seems odd that one person was killed 2 different ways.. It just seems to me that some type of protector role or something that could explain it... (As likely as 2 scum groups).. thats all...
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Total Ullz
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Post by Total Ullz on Feb 5, 2009 5:19:28 GMT -5
Sorry to see you go Pede As for the "two" attacks - lots of possibilities: 1. Maybe scum and a SK/VIG targeted Pede 2. Maybe we got a bus driver 3. Maybe the "House" can kill - randomly? But I don't see why we shold play the game any diffently if we had no scum... because in that case we might have 2,3 or even more PFKs. So I'll keep looking for things pro-scum and anti-town - and vote accordingly.
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Post by BillMc on Feb 5, 2009 7:06:33 GMT -5
Hmm, I'm royally confused, I wrote a post a few hours ago but can't find it - guess I forgot to hit "Post" doh! I'll blame the meds.
"Most of the damage seems to have been done by claws and teeth, however there's a knife jutting out of the center of the body."
It's always a full moon with spooky houses - so given claws and teeth, do we have a werewolf? If so, would they even be aware of who they killed?
the knife starts to glow red, and then disappears in a puff of acrid smoke.
Should we read anything into the fact the supposed second murder weapon vanishes?
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Post by storyteller0910 on Feb 5, 2009 8:41:37 GMT -5
OK. Now the game starts for realsies, I guess. NAF, I still don't agree with what you're doing, and I agree with it less as more information emerges and people start talking about other things, but since I'm unlikely to convince you and you're unlikely to convince me, I'm going to drop that line of discussion for a little while.
Regarding the identity/identities of those who wish us harm: insofar as any non-Town player can be described as "Scum," we almost certainly have some "Scum" in the game somewhere. However, whether we have a Scum Team in the standard Mafia sense - a group of at least two players who know one another, collaborate on a kill choice, and talk outside of this thread - is very much open to question, and very much relevant.
total, you say this:
And of course, you're right; in the absence of a Scum collective we may have multiple third-party players. But the tells for which we should be looking would be fundamentally different in such a case. If there is a Scum collective, then we can look for connections among players, players trying to save or bus other players, and so on. The tells for a third-party player will be very different.
I'm not ready to speculate on the set-up yet, except to say that if there is more than one killer, and if we're talking Scum Kill + SK, then we are fucked six ways from Sunday if we don't get out acts together real quick.
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Post by storyteller0910 on Feb 5, 2009 8:42:43 GMT -5
it just seems odd that one person was killed 2 different ways.. It just seems to me that some type of protector role or something that could explain it... (As likely as 2 scum groups).. thats all... I don't understand your explanation. Would you elaborate further?
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Total Ullz
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Post by Total Ullz on Feb 5, 2009 10:31:21 GMT -5
total, you say this: And of course, you're right; in the absence of a Scum collective we may have multiple third-party players. But the tells for which we should be looking would be fundamentally different in such a case. If there is a Scum collective, then we can look for connections among players, players trying to save or bus other players, and so on. The tells for a third-party player will be very different. You are right - but before me get more info from NK or lynch - I'm not sure if I can spot "real" scum-team-playing. So for now pro-scum/anti-town is the best way for me to play. If anyone sees anything that might indicate we have scum working together to lynch/bus/wagon - I would very much look closer at that case. I just meant that for now... I havn't seen anything like that (maybe I'm looking in the wrong places...)
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Post by NAF1138 on Feb 5, 2009 11:17:21 GMT -5
OK. Now the game starts for realsies, I guess. NAF, I still don't agree with what you're doing, and I agree with it less as more information emerges and people start talking about other things, but since I'm unlikely to convince you and you're unlikely to convince me, I'm going to drop that line of discussion for a little while. Fair enough. Like I said, it's a mini so I am trying out some different ideas. That being said, I don't expect the Day to end with my vote on a lurker since I expect real information to come up at some point.
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Post by BillMc on Feb 5, 2009 13:10:34 GMT -5
Still no clear thoughts on who is who, but just posting anyway to upset NAF's post counting count.
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Post by NAF1138 on Feb 5, 2009 13:45:46 GMT -5
No worries. That sort of post makes me ok with keeping my vote on you even though you no longer have the lowest post count. They whole lynch the lurker thing was really just until there were other reasons to vote for someone.
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Post by brokentree on Feb 5, 2009 14:45:15 GMT -5
I see - well I won't bore you with various medical reasons. But if volume of posts is a reason to vote, then why restrict it to the fewest number of posts - why not the most? Could be an equally scummy tactic of prolific posting....which by a quick count, would put you at the top of the list - well out of those still alive. But I'd rather restrict my voting to something a little more tangible than the number of posts. I think it goes back to the point that not posting much is an anti-town action. Volume of posts are not a good indication for scumminess in of themselves. I typically am among one of the more frequent posters in most games, and I've done that as both town and scum. Peekercpa (not playing in this mini-game) is much the same way. However, by not posting, you give people little to evaluate you by, which is a huge detriment to town going into the endgame. And it's been said that unless anti-town behavior is punished, people will keep doing it. So there's always an argument about lynching low-volume posters in pretty much every game. In my opinion, it's not a bad strategy to employ, but it is (usually) a "safe" play and shouldn't be used when something better is there. Now, safe plays can be employed by scum tactically, but are only a tell when taken in a larger context. NAF's putting heat on those who haven't posted a whole lot. He's being consistent. Also, he's been very forthright about his strategy. So really, the strategy right now is a null tell, and the boldness he's shown so far, particularly in his interchange with story is a slightly townie tell. You forgot to add IMO...unless you know something we don't unvote NAFvote happy frood
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Post by Høøpy Frøød on Feb 5, 2009 14:56:45 GMT -5
I think it goes back to the point that not posting much is an anti-town action. Volume of posts are not a good indication for scumminess in of themselves. I typically am among one of the more frequent posters in most games, and I've done that as both town and scum. Peekercpa (not playing in this mini-game) is much the same way. However, by not posting, you give people little to evaluate you by, which is a huge detriment to town going into the endgame. And it's been said that unless anti-town behavior is punished, people will keep doing it. So there's always an argument about lynching low-volume posters in pretty much every game. In my opinion, it's not a bad strategy to employ, but it is (usually) a "safe" play and shouldn't be used when something better is there. Now, safe plays can be employed by scum tactically, but are only a tell when taken in a larger context. NAF's putting heat on those who haven't posted a whole lot. He's being consistent. Also, he's been very forthright about his strategy. So really, the strategy right now is a null tell, and the boldness he's shown so far, particularly in his interchange with story is a slightly townie tell. You forgot to add IMO...unless you know something we don't [Red] unvote NAF[/color] [Blue] vote happy frood[/color][/quote] Who's "happy frood"? And since when has IMO been required posting in any analysis of tells. Tells, by definition, are your opinion of how someone is acting, and they don't define someone's alignment anyway, just their actions. I didn't say NAF was scum. (A fact.) I didn't say NAF was town. (A fact.) I said his actions are consistent with what he's said (which is a fact, and if you disagree, you should say so), and I read his boldness as being a slight townie tell (an opinion). And if you look at my posts in other games, you will see that I (and others) have mentioned tells in the past and rarely throw IMO into it, because it's understood. vote brokentreeFor using what is one of the logest stretches of logic I've seen in any mafia game to vote for someone.
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Post by Høøpy Frøød on Feb 5, 2009 14:57:21 GMT -5
NETA: logest = longest
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Post by Captain Pinkies on Feb 5, 2009 15:03:53 GMT -5
it just seems odd that one person was killed 2 different ways.. It just seems to me that some type of protector role or something that could explain it... (As likely as 2 scum groups).. thats all... I don't understand your explanation. Would you elaborate further? I can try.... perhaps I am reading too much into the killing color, but it seems likely they were killed twice... In other games I have played there have been 'protector' role (like body guard) in it.. So perhaps someone was being protected or that ped was just targeted by 2 different killers... I guess I am reading more into it than is there...
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Post by roxis on Feb 5, 2009 15:11:23 GMT -5
You forgot to add IMO...unless you know something we don't unvote NAFvote happy frood... what? This is just horrible reasoning. And I'm not going to put IMO, because it's not an opinion. In a paper, you write "I think", because it's assumed that if you're writing it, it's your opinion. Should I vote you for misspelling Hoopy's name? Or perhaps for using a poor internet abbreviation? No, I think I'll vote you for using poor logic to justify two votes in a row. Vote brokentree
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Post by brokentree on Feb 5, 2009 15:11:34 GMT -5
You forgot to add IMO...unless you know something we don't [Red] unvote NAF[/color] [Blue] vote happy frood[/color][/quote] Who's "happy frood"? And since when has IMO been required posting in any analysis of tells. Tells, by definition, are your opinion of how someone is acting, and they don't define someone's alignment anyway, just their actions. I didn't say NAF was scum. (A fact.) I didn't say NAF was town. (A fact.) I said his actions are consistent with what he's said (which is a fact, and if you disagree, you should say so), and I read his boldness as being a slight townie tell (an opinion). And if you look at my posts in other games, you will see that I (and others) have mentioned tells in the past and rarely throw IMO into it, because it's understood. vote brokentreeFor using what is one of the logest stretches of logic I've seen in any mafia game to vote for someone.[/quote] Just looking for reaction..obviously my vote doesn't count because there is no Happy...what ...NAF can vote for reaction and I can't?
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Post by NAF1138 on Feb 5, 2009 15:39:41 GMT -5
Just looking for reaction..obviously my vote doesn't count because there is no Happy...what ...NAF can vote for reaction and I can't? You can totally vote for reaction if you want. Who said you couldn't? Your vote sucked, and I don't buy your explination per se, but out of curiosity what did you learn from this exchange? Also, and I almost hate to bring this up right now because it feels kinda dicky after you have been getting heat, but I kinda prefer my handle to be all caps.Ok so, now that that's out of the way, back to looking for interesting behaviors!
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Post by Høøpy Frøød on Feb 5, 2009 16:21:12 GMT -5
I don't understand your explanation. Would you elaborate further? I can try.... perhaps I am reading too much into the killing color, but it seems likely they were killed twice... In other games I have played there have been 'protector' role (like body guard) in it.. So perhaps someone was being protected or that ped was just targeted by 2 different killers... I guess I am reading more into it than is there... What doesn't make sense is why the existence of a protector would result in what can be intepreted as two separate attacks that both went through?
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Post by Høøpy Frøød on Feb 5, 2009 16:24:29 GMT -5
obviously my vote doesn't count because there is no Happy So? I don't believe for one minute your typo was an intentional gambit. Really, if you wanted to do something like that, you could have just FOS'ed. Besides, you say you were voting for reaction, so you clearly meant for your vote to count. The fact that it might not count (though, it might because it's obvious who you were intending to vote for) is irrelevant as far as your actions are concerned.
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Post by Chameleon on Feb 5, 2009 16:31:03 GMT -5
Just looking for reaction..obviously my vote doesn't count because there is no Happy...what ...NAF can vote for reaction and I can't? Yes, I can understand trying to vote for a reaction - however I do question whether or not you mispelled Hoopy's name on purpose so it wouldn't be counted. That's a pretty convenient way out of the current accusations about your vote. That said it does seem a little too definitive of a mistake to not have been on purpose.
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Post by NAF1138 on Feb 5, 2009 17:20:54 GMT -5
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