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Day 1
Mar 18, 2008 5:47:10 GMT -5
Post by Holy Moley! on Mar 18, 2008 5:47:10 GMT -5
Oh, one other thing. The point's been made that the introduction specifies "superheroes AND supervillains" (my caps, obviously) against them. Well, fine. But if Catwoman is a wolf, we wouldn't know about it, and all the wolves have to do is not target her anyway. So I can't see this changes anything much.
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Day 1
Mar 18, 2008 6:40:01 GMT -5
Post by Captain Klutz on Mar 18, 2008 6:40:01 GMT -5
One idea I want to bring up / ask about...since we are on a strict start time schedule for Days / Nights, is it ever really worth it to hammer someone? Lets say sure, we have a candidate that is the run-away favorite of all voters; do we allow discussion to continue so we have a few days in which to strategize, or do we off the proposed-scum and let the night begin? I would tend to think more discussion would get us some more information about behaviors at least. Thoughts? I agree with this, there's no need to end Days early. I should be able to check in every (real life) day, but I don't want to have an unexpected absence and then find that the Day has ended early. Especially when all that does is give more time to the scum.
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Day 1
Mar 18, 2008 6:54:02 GMT -5
Post by Captain Klutz on Mar 18, 2008 6:54:02 GMT -5
I'm all for subjectively dragging lurkers and low content posters over the coals as much as possible, so long as we all try as much as possible to supplement the dragging with at least some analysis. Sure, but if they haven't posted much of substance then there won't be much to analyse. I'll add a pre emptive defence of myself: I tend to be a fairly low volume poster at the beginning, and pick up as the game continues and more information comes to light. And with the "no strategising at Night", I'm not likely to post much to the Night threads.
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Day 1
Mar 18, 2008 7:11:12 GMT -5
Post by brewha on Mar 18, 2008 7:11:12 GMT -5
Last night I only knew one person's name and role - my own. This morning, thanks to the wonders of personal messaging, I know two. Whoa! we're not supposed to be PMing strategy privately, are we? I really don't like your stance on the mass reveal. No matter what we vote, you're not going to reveal. That sounds like the stance of a Bat to me. I still think a mass reveal is the best way to get some information out there that we can work with. But, if we don't come to a concensus by the end of today, I say we drop it. I don't want to see the rest of toDay wasted talking about it. I know setting a deadline will just encourage the batfriends to stall for the day, but some people are obviously stalling already and that's something to work with.
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Day 1
Mar 18, 2008 7:23:40 GMT -5
Post by zuma on Mar 18, 2008 7:23:40 GMT -5
The only thing that leads me to want to vote yes on a mass claim is the possibility that all the scum have Batman and Company names. I think there is a good chance of it, but again that's just a guess on my part (mostly because there wasn't anything in the color, like the firefly game, that suggested it, unless I missed something).
I'll go along with it if people vote yes, but right now, on day 1, I'd only rather deal with known facts.
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Day 1
Mar 18, 2008 7:26:23 GMT -5
Post by ryjae on Mar 18, 2008 7:26:23 GMT -5
Last night I only knew one person's name and role - my own. This morning, thanks to the wonders of personal messaging, I know two. Somebody else in this game is either a wolf trying to "play" me (which I doubt is the case, since if they gave me a false "name" it might very well be revealed publicly shortly), or a wolf but with a VERY human-sounding name, or a human who thinks that I'm genuine. I'd go for #3. In which case I no longer have to assume that power names mean power roles - I now have an example of it. Wow uncomfortable with that. You going to share? Vote molefan until you let us all in on your extra knowledge.
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Day 1
Mar 18, 2008 7:26:33 GMT -5
Post by zuma on Mar 18, 2008 7:26:33 GMT -5
Whoa! we're not supposed to be PMing strategy privately, are we? I'd assumed it was part of the game... i.e. mod-approved or sent through a mod intermediary. If that is not the case molefan should PM the mods... Sounds like it would be a definite no-no if it was outside the bounds of allowed communication.
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Day 1
Mar 18, 2008 7:34:58 GMT -5
Post by ryjae on Mar 18, 2008 7:34:58 GMT -5
Whoa! we're not supposed to be PMing strategy privately, are we? I'd assumed it was part of the game... i.e. mod-approved or sent through a mod intermediary. If that is not the case molefan should PM the mods... Sounds like it would be a definite no-no if it was outside the bounds of allowed communication. Mod approved doesn't change the fact that if he cannot give us a good reason to keep it quiet he should tell us what he knows.
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Day 1
Mar 18, 2008 7:38:21 GMT -5
Post by zuma on Mar 18, 2008 7:38:21 GMT -5
What the hell? Did this board just eat my first message, or did my dumb ass hit preview and not reply? My follow-ups aren't going to make a lot of sense. Let me try again. Grrr.
This one will be brief and too the point.. I have shit on the stove.
vote No on mass name claim
Reasons: The only thing we know for sure is that Batman will have to lie. Everything is is guesses and assumptions. The danger in exposing town power roles (we don't know if the biggest batman villian names are the most powerful or not) is too much for me amid all the uncertainty.
And if Batman (and scumbuddies, if they're named after Batfriends) recieved fake role names, or if there are names in this game which are not in the Batman universe (like in Firefly), or if they take one of a million different obscure Batman villians, it could be for naught.
I'll admit I don't feel very strongly about this though...
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Day 1
Mar 18, 2008 8:02:29 GMT -5
Post by storyteller0910 on Mar 18, 2008 8:02:29 GMT -5
My point is that IF you go with this plan to reveal everyone's names - and you have my assurance that I'm not going to cooperate with it, which I think will be 100% to the good of the humans - then there will probably be a mass effort by the wolves to kill off the biggest "names". You have still not explained why you are convinced that the mods went through all this trouble to protect what you keep calling the wolves - giving them aliases, or names that aren't suggestive of their alignment - but the mods failed to offer equal protection to the town power roles. Your entire argument hinges on the assumption that the game design carefully protected the scum by giving them names not suggestive of their abilities, but lined the pro-Town power roles up neatly in a row to be picked off according to their names. That would be terrible game design. If the six town power roles were made that obvious by a name claim, then the mods want the scum to win this game.
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Day 1
Mar 18, 2008 8:08:45 GMT -5
Post by storyteller0910 on Mar 18, 2008 8:08:45 GMT -5
As to the mass claim - I am still strongly in favor of it, for the reasons I have outlined at length.
However...
A mass claim works only if everyone does it. If players are refusing to go along with the consensus, then the only thing we can do to enforce the decision is lynch those players, which is a terrible idea (individual, pro-town players deciding that their judgment is foolproof and acting as individual agents in what is purportedly a team game is nothing new, so regarding a player who refuses to go along with this plan as likely scum for that reason alone is a bad idea).
Since we have nothing resembling consensus on this matter, and since an incomplete reveal would be utterly disastrous, I reluctantly withdraw my support for the plan.
I will now turn the floor over to those who have argued most vociferously against an aggressive approach, who surely have a better strategy in mind.
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Day 1
Mar 18, 2008 8:18:34 GMT -5
Post by zuma on Mar 18, 2008 8:18:34 GMT -5
OK... done eating, no kitchen fires. Let's talk about molefan's PM he claims he got. Let's be careful here so as to not out a potential town power role, but we need molefan's claim on record and clarified.
1. Did you recieve this directly from another player or through the game mod?
2. Did you get their role name, actual name, or both?
3. Why do you assume #3?
4. Do you believe it is safe to disclose the content of the message?
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Day 1
Mar 18, 2008 8:20:37 GMT -5
Post by Holy Moley! on Mar 18, 2008 8:20:37 GMT -5
Last night I only knew one person's name and role - my own. This morning, thanks to the wonders of personal messaging, I know two. Somebody else in this game is either a wolf trying to "play" me (which I doubt is the case, since if they gave me a false "name" it might very well be revealed publicly shortly), or a wolf but with a VERY human-sounding name, or a human who thinks that I'm genuine. I'd go for #3. In which case I no longer have to assume that power names mean power roles - I now have an example of it. Wow uncomfortable with that. You going to share? Vote molefan until you let us all in on your extra knowledge. So basically you're going to hold the thread of a vote over my head until I PUBLICLY let you - and presumably the wolves - know of a human role. That's nice and logical, but it at least gives me a starting point. To answer the question put, yes, the mods are aware that I know about this person and this role. Yes, it's legitimate, no rules have been broken. And no, I'm not giving out any more information than that for reasons which I think would be obvious to anybody here. Vote ryjae.
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Day 1
Mar 18, 2008 8:22:05 GMT -5
Post by sinjin on Mar 18, 2008 8:22:05 GMT -5
I'd assumed it was part of the game... i.e. mod-approved or sent through a mod intermediary. If that is not the case molefan should PM the mods... Sounds like it would be a definite no-no if it was outside the bounds of allowed communication. Mod approved doesn't change the fact that if he cannot give us a good reason to keep it quiet he should tell us what he knows. Are you kidding, he's probably said too much already, if he's town. (I'm going with town and scum if you all don't mind or Loonies and Batties if you prefer.) It seems to me that mole is trying to protect a town power role. ANd ryjae is trying to out that same role on Day one. vote ryjae Still thinking about the name claim idea, but leaning towards no. Be back in a bit with more thoughts on that one.
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Day 1
Mar 18, 2008 8:28:52 GMT -5
Post by storyteller0910 on Mar 18, 2008 8:28:52 GMT -5
My frustration level is too high to post intelligently right now. I feel like I'm trapped in a never-ending time-loop. More later.
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Day 1
Mar 18, 2008 8:37:06 GMT -5
Post by Holy Moley! on Mar 18, 2008 8:37:06 GMT -5
OK... done eating, no kitchen fires. Let's talk about molefan's PM he claims he got. Let's be careful here so as to not out a potential town power role, but we need molefan's claim on record and clarified. 1. Did you recieve this directly from another player or through the game mod? 2. Did you get their role name, actual name, or both? 3. Why do you assume #3? 4. Do you believe it is safe to disclose the content of the message? I'd rather not go into detail about this, but I can see it could land me in trouble if I don't, so here goes. I want to be VERY careful here because I don't want to jeopardize a town role, neither do I want to give the impression that I'm lying (I'm not). I received the information privately. I'm not going to say from who on the grounds that it may very give the wolves information that they can use against a power role. It doesn't violate this rule: "3. Communicate only through approved channels. That means either on an off-board site set up for you by Roosh and I, or on the appropriate Day/Night thread on this board. If you receive or send an inappropriate missive, please alert the Mods." I know the person's name. I assume #3 because in the event of a mass name-claim, a false role (not that I have any reason to believe this is, and good reason to believe that it's not) would pretty much come to light instantly. The role does involve some degree of private communication and this is authorised (and the means for it are set up) by the mods. And no, I don't believe it's safe to disclose the message contents. I don't want to give the wolves a power role. The important point is that I don't have a power role or a power "name". I know of one person who does have a power "name", and I believe a role to match. I am not going to give any more details about that person, for reasons that I've explained. What this confirms is that AT LEAST ONE PERSON WITHOUT A "POWER" ROLE HAS A GENERIC NAME. That's me. AT LEAST ONE PERSON WITH A "POWER" NAME HAS A ROLE. Link the two together and you can see why giving the wolves everyone's names would be a really, really bad idea.
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Day 1
Mar 18, 2008 8:41:36 GMT -5
Post by ryjae on Mar 18, 2008 8:41:36 GMT -5
Mod approved doesn't change the fact that if he cannot give us a good reason to keep it quiet he should tell us what he knows. Are you kidding, he's probably said too much already, if he's town. (I'm going with town and scum if you all don't mind or Loonies and Batties if you prefer.) It seems to me that mole is trying to protect a town power role. ANd ryjae is trying to out that same role on Day one. vote ryjae Still thinking about the name claim idea, but leaning towards no. Be back in a bit with more thoughts on that one. What would the purpose of this PM be? What I think he is either lying to further his own goals or someone else is leading him along. I have my doubts obviously, but why would he use a tidbit of totally useless information if not to play us? So many options. He sprinkled a crumb so now the scum know he is someone "in the know" or he is scum and laying down a plausible denial with this PM talk.
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Day 1
Mar 18, 2008 8:43:28 GMT -5
Post by ryjae on Mar 18, 2008 8:43:28 GMT -5
OK... done eating, no kitchen fires. Let's talk about molefan's PM he claims he got. Let's be careful here so as to not out a potential town power role, but we need molefan's claim on record and clarified. 1. Did you recieve this directly from another player or through the game mod? 2. Did you get their role name, actual name, or both? 3. Why do you assume #3? 4. Do you believe it is safe to disclose the content of the message? I'd rather not go into detail about this, but I can see it could land me in trouble if I don't, so here goes. I want to be VERY careful here because I don't want to jeopardize a town role, neither do I want to give the impression that I'm lying (I'm not). I received the information privately. I'm not going to say from who on the grounds that it may very give the wolves information that they can use against a power role. It doesn't violate this rule: "3. Communicate only through approved channels. That means either on an off-board site set up for you by Roosh and I, or on the appropriate Day/Night thread on this board. If you receive or send an inappropriate missive, please alert the Mods." I know the person's name. I assume #3 because in the event of a mass name-claim, a false role (not that I have any reason to believe this is, and good reason to believe that it's not) would pretty much come to light instantly. The role does involve some degree of private communication and this is authorised (and the means for it are set up) by the mods. And no, I don't believe it's safe to disclose the message contents. I don't want to give the wolves a power role. The important point is that I don't have a power role or a power "name". I know of one person who does have a power "name", and I believe a role to match. I am not going to give any more details about that person, for reasons that I've explained. What this confirms is that AT LEAST ONE PERSON WITHOUT A "POWER" ROLE HAS A GENERIC NAME. That's me. AT LEAST ONE PERSON WITH A "POWER" NAME HAS A ROLE. Link the two together and you can see why giving the wolves everyone's names would be a really, really bad idea. And there is what I was looking for, an explanation. Thanks. unvote molefan
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Day 1
Mar 18, 2008 8:46:59 GMT -5
Post by storyteller0910 on Mar 18, 2008 8:46:59 GMT -5
What this confirms is that AT LEAST ONE PERSON WITHOUT A "POWER" ROLE HAS A GENERIC NAME. That's me. AT LEAST ONE PERSON WITH A "POWER" NAME HAS A ROLE. To channel NAF, what we know is only that: (1) At least one person has claimed to have no power role and a generic name; and (2) That person has claimed to have received a message from someone who in turn has claimed to have a very powerful role and a prominent name. My observations: 1. We have no reason to believe your claims regarding either your name or your power. You could be Batman, for all we know. 2. We have no reason to believe that you have been contacted by anyone. You could be making this up to support your own theories. 3. We have no reason to believe that whoever contacted you is who they say they are. I'd go so far as to say that the scenario I consider least likely is the one that you are proposing: that a very powerful pro-Town power role contacted you and revealed his or her name, identity, and power. Does anyone else actually believe that this happened, and that the player doing the contacting was being honest? Because if you believe that, then you believe that someone with a very powerful role willingly outed him/herself in secret to someone who might easily be scum. Leave aside the Batman trappings for a minute: in a basic game of Mafia, if you were, say, the Detective, would you ever consider role claiming to another player, chosen at random? If that other player is a Goon, you've signed your own death warrant. And you've done in such a way that the Goon in question can't be tied to it in any way. So, very simply: I believe that either you are lying about having received this PM, or that the person who sent it is lying about his or her identity.
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Day 1
Mar 18, 2008 8:47:00 GMT -5
Post by zuma on Mar 18, 2008 8:47:00 GMT -5
Alright. Thanks for clarifying that. Your initial paragraph about getting a PM seemingly came out of nowhere but did have a direct bearing on the debate at hand, and we did need to know if it was an official part of the game or not.
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Day 1
Mar 18, 2008 8:51:07 GMT -5
Post by ryjae on Mar 18, 2008 8:51:07 GMT -5
Mod approved doesn't change the fact that if he cannot give us a good reason to keep it quiet he should tell us what he knows. Are you kidding, he's probably said too much already, if he's town. (I'm going with town and scum if you all don't mind or Loonies and Batties if you prefer.) It seems to me that mole is trying to protect a town power role. ANd ryjae is trying to out that same role on Day one. vote ryjae Still thinking about the name claim idea, but leaning towards no. Be back in a bit with more thoughts on that one. If he was trying to protect a role, he should have kept his fingers from typing that tidbit. And stayed arguing his point without that extra knowledge. At least I feel I would do it like that, why cast suspicion when it could've been avoided by not saying anything?
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Day 1
Mar 18, 2008 8:54:46 GMT -5
Post by sinjin on Mar 18, 2008 8:54:46 GMT -5
Grrrr, it took me 10 minutes to post that. I hate hotel connections.
vote ryjae
On the lets reveal our names topic: I don't think the mods are stupid enough to make all the Loonie power roles the top 5 villians. However in FF most of the top good guys were town and did have major power roles. The exceptions were Kaylee (who was a bad girl, but huh, scum knew that already) and Wash who was vanilla. And some bad guys in the show were good guys in the game; Me, Dr. Mathias.
If we name claim and only a couple of top names have major power roles the Batties are still ahead. By outing the names we've narrowed their search for them. And they know which of the big names are on their side already. So maybe they hit a couple of low level powers while systematically taking out the big name players. They've still killed a Loonie.
Also there was name/role ambiguity in FFverse and looking at the Wiki I think there is also a lot of name/role ambiguity in the Batverse. Again, town will get the names but not know the alignment of the ambiguous. But the Batties will know both and can use that to their advantage as well.
Vote no name claim
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Day 1
Mar 18, 2008 9:03:53 GMT -5
Post by sinjin on Mar 18, 2008 9:03:53 GMT -5
How about scenario 3: A power role is given the opportunity by the mods to reveal himself to another random townie by pm. He sends the pm to the mods and the mods randomly pick another townie to send it to. That's what immediately popped into my brain when I saw it. I'm surprised this didn't even occur to you Story. Or he could be Batman trying to get himself killed on day one by coming up with such a goofy reason to not go along with the name reveal program.
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Day 1
Mar 18, 2008 9:05:14 GMT -5
Post by CatInASuit on Mar 18, 2008 9:05:14 GMT -5
I'd go so far as to say that the scenario I consider least likely is the one that you are proposing: that a very powerful pro-Town power role contacted you and revealed his or her name, identity, and power. Does anyone else actually believe that this happened, and that the player doing the contacting was being honest? Considering you put together the Neuromancer role in Blade Runner, I am curious as to where you are going with this? It's possible, that's all we know. It's possible. The only thing I will add is that molefan1981 has said is that he knows the named role, who communicated with him, is a power role of some description. It may be that the only power this person has is to communicate at Day with another player. After all, that's pretty much a direct rip from your own game.
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Day 1
Mar 18, 2008 9:06:11 GMT -5
Post by Holy Moley! on Mar 18, 2008 9:06:11 GMT -5
How about scenario 3: A power role is given the opportunity by the mods to reveal himself to another random townie by pm. He sends the pm to the mods and the mods randomly pick another townie to send it to. That's what immediately popped into my brain when I saw it. I'm surprised this didn't even occur to you Story. Or he could be Batman trying to get himself killed on day one by coming up with such a goofy reason to not go along with the name reveal program. Let me reiterate this point: the role involves A PRIVATE MEANS OF COMMUNICATION SET UP BY THE MODS. Guys, I don't know how much more clear I can be about this.
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Day 1
Mar 18, 2008 9:10:21 GMT -5
Post by storyteller0910 on Mar 18, 2008 9:10:21 GMT -5
How about scenario 3: A power role is given the opportunity by the mods to reveal himself to another random townie by pm. He sends the pm to the mods and the mods randomly pick another townie to send it to. That's what immediately popped into my brain when I saw it. I'm surprised this didn't even occur to you Story. Or he could be Batman trying to get himself killed on day one by coming up with such a goofy reason to not go along with the name reveal program. Let me reiterate this point: the role involves A PRIVATE MEANS OF COMMUNICATION SET UP BY THE MODS. Guys, I don't know how much more clear I can be about this. A question occurs, which I don't think you've actually specified the answer to: I'm looking only for a yes or no answer to the following question, and urge you not to reveal any additional information: Do you know the name of the player who corresponds to the role and power in the private communique?
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Day 1
Mar 18, 2008 9:11:05 GMT -5
Post by Holy Moley! on Mar 18, 2008 9:11:05 GMT -5
I'll add to that. Ryjae's right in one respect. I shouldn't have mentioned that I knew details of one other person's name, but then I didn't anticipate this amount of scrutiny. That said, I still don't like being blackmailed by someone holding a vote over my head unless I "spill" information that could damage the human cause. So my vote stays on him.
My main point - that based on the two names / roles that I know, I believe that names can be linked to roles - has been lost in the confusion, and I'd like to reiterate that again.
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Day 1
Mar 18, 2008 9:11:50 GMT -5
Post by Holy Moley! on Mar 18, 2008 9:11:50 GMT -5
Let me reiterate this point: the role involves A PRIVATE MEANS OF COMMUNICATION SET UP BY THE MODS. Guys, I don't know how much more clear I can be about this. A question occurs, which I don't think you've actually specified the answer to: I'm looking only for a yes or no answer to the following question, and urge you not to reveal any additional information: Do you know the name of the player who corresponds to the role and power in the private communique? That one I can answer with a straight "yes".
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Day 1
Mar 18, 2008 9:12:03 GMT -5
Post by storyteller0910 on Mar 18, 2008 9:12:03 GMT -5
Considering you put together the Neuromancer role in Blade Runner, I am curious as to where you are going with this? It's possible, that's all we know. It's possible. The only thing I will add is that molefan1981 has said is that he knows the named role, who communicated with him, is a power role of some description. It may be that the only power this person has is to communicate at Day with another player. After all, that's pretty much a direct rip from your own game. My response to this depends on the answer to my just-posted question for molefan.
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Day 1
Mar 18, 2008 9:14:30 GMT -5
Post by sinjin on Mar 18, 2008 9:14:30 GMT -5
That should have been scenario 4, I have a terrible connection that's costing me 10 bucks a day, and I forgot to pack my toothbrush and underwear. So, I'm off to buy some princess panties and see the world. Be back later tonight.
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