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Day 1
Mar 17, 2008 19:27:13 GMT -5
Post by storyteller0910 on Mar 17, 2008 19:27:13 GMT -5
But the crux of your opposition to my plan is your contention that the scum will be able to identify the Town's best power roles from their names alone. Because the scum will be lying? Town A: "I'm the Penguin." Scum A: "I'm Minor Bad Guy 1" Town B: "I'm Minor Bad Guy 2" Scum B: "I'm Minor Bad Guy 3" Which one is easiest to target for a swift death? Yes, I know if two people say they're the Penguin, that's different. That's not the point. The point in this case is that molefan appears to be assuming that the mods would have built in all sorts of failsafes for the scum - giving them false aliases, and/or giving scum Town-ish names - but no such failsafes for the Town. In your example above, I see no reason to assume that the Penguin would have more or better powers than Minor Bad Guy #2. Presumably, the same moderator approach that leads to town players with scummy names or vice versa would also lead to high-profile Town names with weak powers and vice versa.
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Day 1
Mar 17, 2008 19:32:33 GMT -5
Post by Gir! on Mar 17, 2008 19:32:33 GMT -5
You'd think so, wouldn't you...
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Day 1
Mar 17, 2008 19:40:19 GMT -5
Post by tdpatriots12 on Mar 17, 2008 19:40:19 GMT -5
In your example above, I see no reason to assume that the Penguin would have more or better powers than Minor Bad Guy #2. Presumably, the same moderator approach that leads to town players with scummy names or vice versa would also lead to high-profile Town names with weak powers and vice versa. Look at what this plan calls for 'assuming:' - Assuming names and powers are not related - Assuming there are no prepared fake roles - Assuming that the fakes, pre-existing or ad hoc, will be easy to spot - Assuming there are no "matched-character" goals (ie, River Tam I guess, I wasn't in that game) detrimental to town - Assuming that if a character is scum in canon he's scum in the game (and vice versa) - Assuming scum don't have any special powers we haven't prepared for All are of course perfectly reasonable assumptions on their own, but they're rarely brought up together in the same post. Name-claiming has a lot of problems given how little we know about some of the game mechanics. But remember, it's basically relying on the assumption that there will either be counter-claims or unconvincing lies from the scum.
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Day 1
Mar 17, 2008 19:45:46 GMT -5
Post by Greedy Smurf on Mar 17, 2008 19:45:46 GMT -5
I'm going to vote against the big reveal
While I can see the potential advantages in the plan, I believe that a full reveal will more than likely give more information to the scum than it will to us.
Boiled down, the one big thing a reveal does for the town is provide the opportunity for at least one (Bats him/herself) of the scum to be caught in a lie. With the potential for some others as well.
The big down side is that we will reveal to the scum all of our characters, and while yes, big name villains might not necessarily correlate to big power roles, it gives the scum a solid place to start picking us of.
The other thing to consider is if some townies refuse to reveal, there's not much we can do about it, but it will be a massive flag to the scum - "oh there is someone important we need to knock off."
Arguments for and against aside, we need to make a decision on it pretty damn quick, we don't want to get bogged down on this one suggestion for the entirety of Day 1, and wind up with a pile on for the vote because we ran out of time.
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Day 1
Mar 17, 2008 19:52:05 GMT -5
Post by ryjae on Mar 17, 2008 19:52:05 GMT -5
As someone who initially thought a massive role claim would be a good thing, then changing my mind. I think it will be help out the town, but I have a fear it will help the scum more.
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Day 1
Mar 17, 2008 20:00:49 GMT -5
Post by storyteller0910 on Mar 17, 2008 20:00:49 GMT -5
Look, I'm not trying to be combative here, I'm really not, but if I may, it would seem to me that the following assumptions underlie opposition to my plan:
- Assuming names and powers are related - Assuming there are prepared fake roles - Assuming that the fakes, pre-existing or ad hoc, will be difficult to spot - Assuming there are no matched-character goals beneficial to town
Of the other things you said, I'm not assuming:
- Assuming that if a character is scum in canon he's scum in the game (and vice versa)
At all. I've said that pretty explicitly.
And of course, the scum may have powers we're not prepared to deal with. The fact is, though, that we have no way of knowing whether those special powers are more or less dangerous with fully revealed names.
"The assumption that there will be unconvincing lies from the scum" is the assumption underlying the entire game. If the scum are able to lie in such a way as to be unidentifiable as liars, then we will lose. The point is to force them to HAVE to lie. Make them lie as often and about as many subjects as possible, and sooner or later, an identifiable lie will hopefully emerge. Do nothing to put any pressure on them, and they can sit back and act like townies and win.
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Day 1
Mar 17, 2008 20:01:26 GMT -5
Post by Boozahol Squid, P.I. on Mar 17, 2008 20:01:26 GMT -5
Insane cackling can be heard throughout the building. Somewhere, someone is enjoying the arguments.
HockeyMonkey 1 (CIAS) CatInASuit 1 (NAF1138) DarkSmurf 1(Rysto)
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Day 1
Mar 17, 2008 20:05:05 GMT -5
Post by tdpatriots12 on Mar 17, 2008 20:05:05 GMT -5
Do nothing to put any pressure on them, and they can sit back and act like townies and win. I don't disagree. All I'm saying is we should find a way to do it that doesn't involve essentially taking our trousers down.
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Day 1
Mar 17, 2008 20:14:35 GMT -5
Post by Gir! on Mar 17, 2008 20:14:35 GMT -5
Hell, I was gonna make a list that was somewhat similar to tdpatriots's above, but what's really worrying me the most about the nameclaim idea is that, somewhere down the line, people with canon-Town (i.e. villain) names will end up getting the benefit of the doubt and people with canon-scum (i.e. Bat-people) names will end up getting harrassed, even if only subconsciously.
The idea of rolenames and powers being aligned is less bothersome because, frankly, looking at the Batman villians I can come up with (and then stopping by Wikipedia to look at their list), I really can't point to one and say "That one'll be the doctor" and so on.
So, would the pro-reveal people have anything to say to reassure me on that matter (the first one, not the second one)?
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Day 1
Mar 17, 2008 20:26:03 GMT -5
Post by Rysto on Mar 17, 2008 20:26:03 GMT -5
Hell, I was gonna make a list that was somewhat similar to tdpatriots's above, but what's really worrying me the most about the nameclaim idea is that, somewhere down the line, people with canon-Town (i.e. villain) names will end up getting the benefit of the doubt and people with canon-scum (i.e. Bat-people) names will end up getting harrassed, even if only subconsciously. This strikes me as similar to the argument I made in YSI that the dossier reveals didn't necessarily end up being pro-Town, because the Town ended up lynching more townies based on dossier analysis than scum. As I said upthread, that's bad reasoning. Giving townies more information to work with is pro-Town. If the townies misinterpret the information, that's the fault of the townies, not the information reveal. So I don't find this to be a particularly compelling argument against a reveal. The crux of the issue for me is deciding whether the pro-Town aspects of giving the townies more information outweighs the pro-Scum aspects of giving the scum more information.
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Day 1
Mar 17, 2008 20:30:07 GMT -5
Post by Santo Rugger on Mar 17, 2008 20:30:07 GMT -5
<snip>The crux of the issue for me is deciding whether the pro-Town aspects of giving the townies more information outweighs the pro-Scum aspects of giving the scum more information. Unfortunately, I don't think we can know this until after the fact.
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Day 1
Mar 17, 2008 20:33:10 GMT -5
Post by Holy Moley! on Mar 17, 2008 20:33:10 GMT -5
Here's what's interesting to me. Let's see what others think. You are quick to jump on this idea by atarus - that the mods would have made sure that Batman et al had fake claims on which to fall back. In short: you seem to believe very firmly that the mods wouldn't have allowed names alone to identify scum. OK. Fine. But the crux of your opposition to my plan is your contention that the scum will be able to identify the Town's best power roles from their names alone. So either: (1) You believe that the mods are essentially pro-scum, and set up the game so that the powerful good guys are easily identified from their names but the bad guys are not; or (2) You are using inconsistent reasoning. Since I don't believe #1 is true and I don't think you do either... well, you can probably guess where I'm going with this. There's no inconsistency. I think it's very likely that both the bad AND good guys could be easily identified as power role-players by their names. And in case of any speculation along these lines: I am neither a wolf nor a power role-player; and if a genuine wolf had the choice of taking out someone with my name or taking out, say, "The Joker", I would 100% expect them to go for The Joker. As for the "good guys" (scum - boy, this is confusing!) I've already given my opinion that at least one of them will have an investigative role. That seems to me inevitable. It's probably Batman himself but could be one of the others. As for the wolves not being identifiable by their names - that's an assumption that other people have made. The only person whose identity is known for certain is Batman. On the other hand, if there are five wolves and four of the people in this game are called "Alfred", "Commissioner Gordon", "Robin" and "Batgirl", I don't think anybody would blame me for jumping to conclusions. My point is that if the "good" team are easily identified by their names, the hosts would - almost certainly IMO - have given them fake names that would allow them to retain their cover. It's happened before. I was given a fake lottery number. Kat's two scum were given fake identities. I don't see anything blatantly pro-scum in a host closing up a massive loophole like that. But all this is blowing smoke in the wind. As far as I can see, for this plan to stand any chance of working, you have to ASSUME that: 1) There's a powerful protective role in the game on the town side. (Hugely doubtful IMO. I suspect there are power roles, probably linked to character names, which is why I'm so much against giving the wolves this kind of information.) 2) There's a Vig on hand to take out Batman before the first night. Which is quite likely IMO, but still an assumption. If he has a "power" name as well as a "power" role, he's going to be a target right away. So he needs to use that power IMMEDIATELY. 3) There's a good chance of catching Batman in a lie. Before the "fake names" idea I would have (and did) say, "Ok, it's pretty likely." Now, with an obvious solution at hand, I can't see the hosts letting this one happen. So scratch that. 4) There's also a good chance of catching at least one or more other wolves. Damned if I can see how that's gonna happen unless we have the good fortune to see Robin, Alfred, Gordon and Alicia all claim at once. In short, the more I think about this, the worse it looks. The guaranteed benefits are zero. Potentially we could learn a lot, but it seems very unlikely that we will; and, crucially, I think we'd be giving up a lot of information in terms of "names". There ARE minor roles in this game with minor names. I've got one of them. I don't think that it would be unrealistic to assume that a really major "name" would be a strong candidate for a power role. If you guys do this, I am 85% convinced that you will be PLAYING INTO THE HANDS OF THE WOLVES. So I'm urging you not to do it.
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Day 1
Mar 17, 2008 20:42:35 GMT -5
Post by ryjae on Mar 17, 2008 20:42:35 GMT -5
That's why I changed my mind, it seems to be more helpful to the scum than to us. What tipped the scales was reading that link to the Batman wiki article that Hal was nice enough to post and reading through and looking at the ton of people in the batman world. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman_supporting_charactersen.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Batman_enemies I can see scum and company having an alias or just taking there chance in a forced role claim by grabbing a name off that list. Once again I don't think we should take a mass role claim off the table completely, but lets work on another angle and shelf this for a while.
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Day 1
Mar 17, 2008 21:05:17 GMT -5
Post by Hawkmod on Mar 17, 2008 21:05:17 GMT -5
I'm here, I'm here. No killing without me. So where are the heroes, so we can reveal our secret plan?
Thoughts on the main issues thus far:
I don't really like lynching lurkers for sake of them being lurkers. I don't find them more likely to be scum than nonlurkers, and I'd rather lynch scum. Plus, those aren't votes that tell us much later in the game.
I likewise do not favor a mass reveal. This a metagamey argument, but whether or we should reveal is purely a function of what our mods came up with for roles. It isn't really the "heroes" I'm concerned about here. I think if there were only two factions, I'd be okay with the reveal. I don't believe there are only two factions. Given the fact that Roosh and Dio have stated this game will be bloody and short, and the fact that we are playing villians, I think we can expect that there are some of us only looking out for themselves. I think there is likely at least 3 people who are either serial killers or vigs. Knowing names will not help us figure out who those are, but it may help the individual killers take out people who threaten them. No on mass reveal
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Day 1
Mar 17, 2008 21:12:54 GMT -5
Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Mar 17, 2008 21:12:54 GMT -5
Yes to the mass-claim. I don't have a particularly passionate argument, as I do think it is risky, but what is Mafia without the perfume of anxious, sweaty geeks? ;D
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Day 1
Mar 17, 2008 21:22:14 GMT -5
Post by Hockey Monkey! on Mar 17, 2008 21:22:14 GMT -5
I'm on the fence now on the mass reveal after reading arguments both for and against.
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Day 1
Mar 17, 2008 22:14:58 GMT -5
Post by Høøpy Frøød on Mar 17, 2008 22:14:58 GMT -5
<snip>The crux of the issue for me is deciding whether the pro-Town aspects of giving the townies more information outweighs the pro-Scum aspects of giving the scum more information. Unfortunately, I don't think we can know this until after the fact. Sorry about not chiming in ToDay until now. I'm taking this week off from work to get some stuff done around the house in preparation for eventually trying to sell it. My parents are visiting me and we were out getting paint supplies and painting the first coat on the master bedroom. (On a side note, taking vacation time to not actually take a vacation kind of bites.) So I might not be very active this first Day, but hopefully that should change by Day 2. I'll try to at least post once per real-time day to at least chime in with my thoughts. It's true that we don't know who will benefit the most from a name reveal, but I think the risk is worth it, provided we can reasonably assume that the mods have not given backup identities to the scum and/or the mysterious gray group that may or may not exist. (By gray, I mean that while they aren't scum, they aren't necessarily pro-town. The initial color-commentary did imply there are at least three distinct factions here. We definitely have scum and non-scum, but among the townies there might be groups that have their own agendas.) I can't say whether it is a safe assumption. Some think it is, some think it isn't. Really, that's what this vote comes down to for me. I like the idea of the mass name reveal as giving the town more information, and in my opinion from what I've seen and interpreted by reading other peoples arguments in this and fluiddruid's game, the more the town knows the better, but if the scum can't get tripped up by it, all it will give us is the names of the townies and the alter-egos of the scum. Not really useful. Granted, being that this is my first mafia game, I have no personal experience on what could happen in either case. If either side can convince me which is more likely for the mods to have done (i.e. whether or not they gave backup roles) I'll vote yes or no for a name reveal on that. I don't see either side having pro- or anti-town sentiments in this debate. Anything the town does is pretty much taking a risk. The unknown factors are what determine whether the risk is good or bad. The more of those we discover, the better. Unfortunately, revealing them generally involves taking risks. But along this line, it's also why I favor lynching lurkers (unless, they can provide a good reason for why they are lurking). It's not that I necessarily have a problem with the lurking--and if you post rarely, but give a lot to think about, I don't consider you a lurker, but lurking gives nothing to the town. At least by lynching a lurker, we get a piece of info.
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Day 1
Mar 17, 2008 22:47:52 GMT -5
Post by kassia on Mar 17, 2008 22:47:52 GMT -5
Wow, didn't expect the Day to have gotten so far along already. Sorry everyone. Just a reminder to the veterans, and to let newbs know - I don't have much access to a computer during the day, so most of my reading and posting happens in the evenings. And I'm on Pacific time, so that means some of you are already in bed before I even get to see what's going on. Anyway...my thoughts...
After reading everything concerning a mass reveal, I'm sitting on the fence with HockeyMonkey. I pretty much agree with what story has had to say - his arguments seem sound to me. My one big concern with this idea is the same as what Kat said - I'm not so sure any of us, myself included, can look at everyone objectively through-out the rest of the game after a name claim. While I don't believe that the mods linked names, roles and factions in the traditional canonical sense - I don't necessarily think that I would be able to ever see The Joker, or Robin even, in any role other than that which we are so familiar with them being in.
But, really, that's no reason not to vote for this plan - we would just have to be vigilant about doing real analysis of people's posts instead of making assumptions.
That being said - the idea of a mass name claim still scares the bejeezus out of me. With so little info to go on this early in the game - scum could very well take these names and do exactly what has been suggested - start working their way down the list.
And here I am back on the fence with HM.
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Day 1
Mar 17, 2008 23:04:23 GMT -5
Post by kassia on Mar 17, 2008 23:04:23 GMT -5
You're assuming a lot of conventional roles there, and this isn't a conventional game. Right now the only role I'm willing to assume are certain are a scum investigator and my own. What if there isn't a "doctor" type role, or if there is but it's limited to protecting one person, or the role is taken away once the doctor has successfully protected someone? If the powers are easy enough to identify, the scum can pick them off one by one. I've played in lots of games recently where there is no doctor or "protector" equivalent. If that's the case here, we could be in all kinds of trouble. "It supplies data, which is in short supply right now." This one I agree with, unfortunately I think that - Batman-naming aside - the people who will benefit most from that data will be the scum UNLESS two very specific roles are in this game. If those roles are both in play, this plan could work. One, obviously, is doctor, and, short of someone coming out and claiming to me that they're it, I'd be very very doubtful about assuming that one. (And no, I'm NOT asking anybody to do that.) The other is a vigilante-type role, ideally a "Rambo" multi-kill type one, which needs to be used QUICK. Night one if possible. Obviously on Batman (since he's the only wolf we're really likely to catch unless they're named in a very obvious way), ideally on the best other suspects that we have at that time. Now I'll say straight away that 1) I don't have either of these roles, and 2) I'm very doubtful that either exists. As I said, I haven't been in a game with a doctor for months - there seems to have been a backlash against the role. I've only ever been in one game with a "rambo" character although I've come across a few vigilantes recently. If this is to work, we need to cut down the spies ASAP after the name claim. We also need to protect our strongest. I don't see any way to guarantee that we can do that unless someone's willing to come forward and claim as doctor/rambo. And personally I wouldn't advise doing that! and later I am just having major problems with molefan right now. I completely agree with story's statement of molefan's inconsistent reasoning. But what bothers me more is his rock solid assurance that there are no huge pro-town power roles in this game. Molefan, please tell me how, exactly, you seem to know so much about the set-up of this game? You are absolutely convinced that there "are so many human roles" in this game and no doctor or vigilante roles. And yet we know for sure that this is a "no vanilla" set-up. Is it possible to have a no vanilla set-up and not have some pretty powerful roles out there? Why are you trying so hard to convince us all that there is no doctor in this game? Is there some advantage to this? Sure we have to play cautiously, as if there is not someone out there who can save us - but I don't think we should just blindly assume that this role does not exist. I'm going to vote molefan for now because this is all just not sitting right with me at the moment.
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Day 1
Mar 17, 2008 23:20:00 GMT -5
Post by Gir! on Mar 17, 2008 23:20:00 GMT -5
This strikes me as similar to the argument I made in YSI that the dossier reveals didn't necessarily end up being pro-Town, because the Town ended up lynching more townies based on dossier analysis than scum. As I said upthread, that's bad reasoning. Giving townies more information to work with is pro-Town. If the townies misinterpret the information, that's the fault of the townies, not the information reveal. So I don't find this to be a particularly compelling argument against a reveal. The crux of the issue for me is deciding whether the pro-Town aspects of giving the townies more information outweighs the pro-Scum aspects of giving the scum more information. First off, I disagree that we should ignore the human factor (obviously). Of course, it's pro-Town to have more information, but if the information isn't going to be properly used, it's pointless (not anti-Town, not pro-Scum, just pointless) to reveal it. Secondly, I had a secondly when I started writing this, but then I had to go let my roommate in because her key didn't work, and now I don't remember what it was. Sorry.
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Day 1
Mar 17, 2008 23:46:49 GMT -5
Post by Gir! on Mar 17, 2008 23:46:49 GMT -5
Or am I just paranoid because it happened in Firefly?
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Santo Rugger
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Day 1
Mar 18, 2008 0:15:13 GMT -5
Post by Santo Rugger on Mar 18, 2008 0:15:13 GMT -5
<snip> I'm going to [colorBlue]vote molefan [/color] for now because this is all just not sitting right with me at the moment. [/quote] I see where you're coming from. A part that pinged me about molefan was a post that said, paraphrased, "if you guys decide to do x", as if preemptively excluding himself from the group decision before it was even made. *Note to self: Don't celebrate St. Patty's Day twice within a 72 hour period. Ever.
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Day 1
Mar 18, 2008 0:24:27 GMT -5
Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Mar 18, 2008 0:24:27 GMT -5
I'm really trying to recalibrate my special knowlege radar, as this is supposed to be a non-vanilla game where everyone (regardless of alignment) has the potential of possessing some at one point or another.
Two votes stand out at me for the moment, Rysto's random vote and Cat's vote for Hockey because she gave me credit for something that he had said. I don't necessarily have a problem with Rysto's vote, other than the fact that it has no reasoning to mull over, but then again it is Day 1...
The only way that Hockey's statement scans comfortably is as an honest mistake. If she were trying to wrongfully attribute something to me on purpose, or somehow smear me, it would be a really dumb play to make when the game is still in diapers and so easy for everyone to spot the mistake. I know that she and I have had no off-board contact, so for the rest of you that don't know that, if I were in your shoes, I'd find it very hard to believe that we'd already have a case of mistaken cross-posting on page 2 of Day 1.
Vote Cat[/color] for voting based on (imho) nonsensical opportunism.
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Day 1
Mar 18, 2008 0:49:18 GMT -5
Post by Rysto on Mar 18, 2008 0:49:18 GMT -5
I agree that Cat's vote was pretty nonsensical, but the vote makes so little sense I have trouble taking it seriously. Let's suppose that Cat is scum. Am I really supposed to believe that he expected to be able drum up support for a bandwagon? Over HM confusing Cookies and Cat? I don't see scum sticking their neck out like that. I'm not sure that I like this vote from Cookies -- that's the kind of vote scum would make, if Cat is Town.
The other thing that jumps out at me is that Drain Bead is either scum and knows that the scum aren't villains, or she's town and was given a villain's role. If the scum start turning out to be characters like Robin and Commission Gordon I'll be taking a long look at her.
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Day 1
Mar 18, 2008 2:20:14 GMT -5
Post by ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies on Mar 18, 2008 2:20:14 GMT -5
Says the "random.org" voter...
And what if Cat isn't town?
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Day 1
Mar 18, 2008 3:02:47 GMT -5
Post by Captain Klutz on Mar 18, 2008 3:02:47 GMT -5
Wow. Lots of discussion on the mass name claim. Here are my thoughts:
It's a basic tenet of game design that names do not imply alignment (except, in this case, for Batman). So it's likely that Batman has been given a safe name to claim.
It seems that it would be difficult to assign certain abilities to specfic names: pretty well any Batman villain could be justifiably given any of the typical roles of bodyguard/vigilante/investigator. (Then again, my knowledge of the Battiverse is mainly from the 60s TV series, so this may not be entirely true). It's tempting to associate major names with major abilities, so again the designers would surely have considered this and mixed them up a bit.
It may be that specific characters are being looked for, either by town or scum, so a mass claim would certainly help with this. The question is, which side would it help more? This is unanswerable at this stage, so a mass claim is basically a gamble.
Overall, I think it's unlikely that a mass name claim will trip up Batman and the result will be that we take up a day or two without getting any closer to the scum.
Vote against a mass name claim
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Day 1
Mar 18, 2008 4:25:11 GMT -5
Post by CatInASuit on Mar 18, 2008 4:25:11 GMT -5
Says the "random.org" voter... And what if Cat isn't town? Just for note: Given that there is a Cat and a Kat both currently playing, please make the votes clear as to which is which. I'm guessing though that Cookies vote is for me
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Day 1
Mar 18, 2008 4:37:08 GMT -5
Post by CatInASuit on Mar 18, 2008 4:37:08 GMT -5
You both start with "C"! Seriously, brained that post together with Cookie's avatar...for what reason I have no idea. Actually Hockey Monkey, I had a few reasons for voting for you. 1. It keeps Dio happy. 2. It means people are not waiting around for the first vote any more. 3. I wanted to see what reaction an obviously silly vote like this would get. unvote Hockey Monkey
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Day 1
Mar 18, 2008 5:03:38 GMT -5
Post by CatInASuit on Mar 18, 2008 5:03:38 GMT -5
Name Claiming:
I don't think Pleonast's Conspiracy game is a good example, because although a mass claim would have won the game for the scum at the start, once it came down to the last few who knows who would have won.
If we had name claimed in the Firefly game, we would probably have lost it. Two expected Town names were scum power roles, there was only one scum with an obviously scum name, the two obvious scum had codenames and there was enough shades of grey to go round. And the town power roles were fairly in line with the importance of the character to the series.
In this game it could be that Catwoman prefers Batman alive rather than dead for her own sentimental reasons, or that the Joker is going to keep Batman alive as then the joke would be on the rest of the "Town".
Really, anything is possible in this game.
If they name claimed, would we ever be likely to lynch these two main protagonists?
Also, in Firefly, a couple of the major characters were vanilla as well. There are none in this game. I can't see the Joker being the weakest power role. Although it's possible, it is very unlikely.
Not to mention, if someone does have a made up name but is on the side of the town, they are going to be an immediate target. That one became apparent on Day 1 of Firefly after dotchan was lynched.
I think a name claim is going to cause more confusion for the town and give bonus info to the scum.
vote no to name reveal
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Day 1
Mar 18, 2008 5:40:20 GMT -5
Post by Holy Moley! on Mar 18, 2008 5:40:20 GMT -5
You're assuming a lot of conventional roles there, and this isn't a conventional game. Right now the only role I'm willing to assume are certain are a scum investigator and my own. What if there isn't a "doctor" type role, or if there is but it's limited to protecting one person, or the role is taken away once the doctor has successfully protected someone? If the powers are easy enough to identify, the scum can pick them off one by one. I've played in lots of games recently where there is no doctor or "protector" equivalent. If that's the case here, we could be in all kinds of trouble. "It supplies data, which is in short supply right now." This one I agree with, unfortunately I think that - Batman-naming aside - the people who will benefit most from that data will be the scum UNLESS two very specific roles are in this game. If those roles are both in play, this plan could work. One, obviously, is doctor, and, short of someone coming out and claiming to me that they're it, I'd be very very doubtful about assuming that one. (And no, I'm NOT asking anybody to do that.) The other is a vigilante-type role, ideally a "Rambo" multi-kill type one, which needs to be used QUICK. Night one if possible. Obviously on Batman (since he's the only wolf we're really likely to catch unless they're named in a very obvious way), ideally on the best other suspects that we have at that time. Now I'll say straight away that 1) I don't have either of these roles, and 2) I'm very doubtful that either exists. As I said, I haven't been in a game with a doctor for months - there seems to have been a backlash against the role. I've only ever been in one game with a "rambo" character although I've come across a few vigilantes recently. If this is to work, we need to cut down the spies ASAP after the name claim. We also need to protect our strongest. I don't see any way to guarantee that we can do that unless someone's willing to come forward and claim as doctor/rambo. And personally I wouldn't advise doing that! and later I am just having major problems with molefan right now. I completely agree with story's statement of molefan's inconsistent reasoning. But what bothers me more is his rock solid assurance that there are no huge pro-town power roles in this game. Molefan, please tell me how, exactly, you seem to know so much about the set-up of this game? You are absolutely convinced that there "are so many human roles" in this game and no doctor or vigilante roles. And yet we know for sure that this is a "no vanilla" set-up. Is it possible to have a no vanilla set-up and not have some pretty powerful roles out there? Why are you trying so hard to convince us all that there is no doctor in this game? Is there some advantage to this? Sure we have to play cautiously, as if there is not someone out there who can save us - but I don't think we should just blindly assume that this role does not exist. I'm going to vote molefan for now because this is all just not sitting right with me at the moment. Haha, expected that. To answer your question: No, I don't think it is possible to have a "no vanilla" setup without powerful roles. I don't KNOW that there isn't a doctor. Nor do I KNOW that there isn't a vig, an assassin, etc. My point is that IF you go with this plan to reveal everyone's names - and you have my assurance that I'm not going to cooperate with it, which I think will be 100% to the good of the humans - then there will probably be a mass effort by the wolves to kill off the biggest "names". Last night I only knew one person's name and role - my own. This morning, thanks to the wonders of personal messaging, I know two. Somebody else in this game is either a wolf trying to "play" me (which I doubt is the case, since if they gave me a false "name" it might very well be revealed publicly shortly), or a wolf but with a VERY human-sounding name, or a human who thinks that I'm genuine. I'd go for #3. In which case I no longer have to assume that power names mean power roles - I now have an example of it. IF WE DO THIS, WE NEED TO HAVE SOME WAY TO PROTECT THE MOST POWERFUL ROLE-PLAYERS. Without them, we might be handing the game to the wolves right away. But there's no assurances that we can do that. Yes, there could be a "doctor" type role. Or there could be a protective role that's spread over two or three people even. But let's look at how that might work. Let's say, for the sake of argument and an example, that there are two "protectors", and each of them can choose one person to protect each round. They can't choose the same person twice and the wolves don't get to know who they picked. Now let's say that there are six obvious human targets and a lot of more obscure henchmen-type roles once everyone's names have been revealed: Joker, Penguin, Catwoman, Two Face, Riddler, Freeze. So who do our poor protectors choose to protect? No matter who they choose, the wolf still has a 2/3 chance of taking out a power player. Let's say that one protector protects the Riddler, another chooses the Penguin, and the wolves take out Catwoman. The next round, one protector can't now protect the Riddler any more, the other one can't protect the Penguin, so their options are narrowed. The wolves, meanwhile, still have five possibilities to choose from, and a 3/5 chance that they'll hit someone without protection. That's just an example of how a protective role might work. My point here is that if you hand the wolves all the big-name players on a plate, it's gonna be bloody hard if not impossible to safeguard them to any degree. Right now I don't even know that there is someone with a protective role in the game (although it seems unlikely that there wouldn't be, I would also argue that something as powerful as the "doctor" is fairly unlikely too). In short, why take that risk? Why give them all of that information? It makes no sense.
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