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Day 1
Mar 17, 2008 16:27:53 GMT -5
Post by Drain Bead on Mar 17, 2008 16:27:53 GMT -5
1. Most importantly: this plan will force Batman to lie, and to do so immediately, toDay. Every other scum can claim his or her real name safely. The Bat cannot. This, to me, seems to be the crux of your plan. My question is, how certain are you that this is the case? Do you think that our mods have not thought of this scenario, especially in light of how much it was discussed in the Firefly game? And how do you know that the rest of the scum are okay claiming their real names? You seem to have a lot of dangerous assumptions in this one little paragraph. If the main pro of your idea is something that is unproveagle, it's not a very good idea.
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Day 1
Mar 17, 2008 16:30:28 GMT -5
Post by Rysto on Mar 17, 2008 16:30:28 GMT -5
Personally, I fail to see how other scum be forced to fake up names would hurt the Town.
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Day 1
Mar 17, 2008 16:34:42 GMT -5
Post by Boozahol Squid, P.I. on Mar 17, 2008 16:34:42 GMT -5
A siren sounds. The lights go out. A heavy sack is tossed from the rafters of the asylum. The sacks opens and out rolls…A votecount! HockeyMonkey 1 (CIAS) CatInASuit 1 (NAF1138) DarkSmurf 1(Rysto*) *It’s even my fav: a Day One random vote! It does make me happy. All’s forgiven, pal. What time zone are we operating on here? Day is over "Friday at 9 p.m". Should I assume we'll go with the usual east-coast bias? We're going with the usual mod-hometown bias... Firefly operated on CST, as I recall. Roosh already mentioned this earlier, but all times will be EDT. You're steamed?
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Day 1
Mar 17, 2008 16:40:18 GMT -5
Post by Holy Moley! on Mar 17, 2008 16:40:18 GMT -5
I see no reason to assume this. You're basing this on data not in evidence. Well we don't have enough data or evidence. And I think we can assume henchman-type roles, if only because twenty-five major Batman characters seems like a pretty high number to me (admittedly I've never read the comics here, but still...) How many villains were in the films altogether, nine? And as for the scum/good guys, the only ones I can think of offhand are Batman, Robin, Alfred and Commissioner Gordon. (Alicia Silverstone was clearly an evil psychopath in "Batman and Robin", but then so was the bloke who wrote the script. And wouldn't it be great if Akiva Goldsman turned out to be one of the scum?) Seriously though, add those characters together and you've barely got past half the cast. I just think your strategy is a very risky one, and - for reasons already given - the risks probably outweigh the rewards in this case. I've played very few mafia games which included an all-powerful "doctor", and the fact that there are so many human roles in this one pretty much convinces me that this won't be another - it could literally unbalance the game to have a role that powerful in a "no vanilla" set-up. So right now my vote is still no. It wouldn't surprise me if a lot of both wolves and humans are voting no right now - the consequences of such a bold move could cause ruptions that could massively injure either side.
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Day 1
Mar 17, 2008 16:42:34 GMT -5
Post by Hal Briston on Mar 17, 2008 16:42:34 GMT -5
Personally, I fail to see how other scum be forced to fake up names would hurt the Town. Sure enough. It seems to me that if there is a chance that scum would be forced to fake a name, then it's a very good thing for the town. Any faked name stands a chance of being someone else's name, and any one-for-one trade that brings about will be worth it (if it even comes to that -- might get lucky and nail scum first).
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Day 1
Mar 17, 2008 16:48:54 GMT -5
Post by Drain Bead on Mar 17, 2008 16:48:54 GMT -5
The point isn't necessarily that scum may or may not have the agility to claim fake names. The point is how does story know that the lesser scum can claim their real names? The quote was "Every other scum can claim his or her real name safely." How, at this point in Day One, can he make that statement? It's great if they can't, gut how does story speak with such certainty on the issue?
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Day 1
Mar 17, 2008 16:57:22 GMT -5
Post by Hal Briston on Mar 17, 2008 16:57:22 GMT -5
The point isn't necessarily that scum may or may not have the agility to claim fake names. The point is how does story know that the lesser scum can claim their real names? The quote was "Every other scum can claim his or her real name safely." How, at this point in Day One, can he make that statement? It's great if they can't, gut how does story speak with such certainty on the issue? The one thing we know for certain is that Batman is scum. Anyone else, we have no guarantees. Robin, Commissioner Gordon, Chief O'Hara* -- any of them can state their real name and we don't know that they're scum. Batman must lie about this...we do know that he's scum. *Of course, if all three of them revealed and said they all were town, I think I might be inclined to disbelieve at least some of them...
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Day 1
Mar 17, 2008 16:58:38 GMT -5
Post by brewha on Mar 17, 2008 16:58:38 GMT -5
I'm with Story on this one. I think we should get these things out in the open. But, more importantly, we need to make a decision soon. I really don't want to discuss this until Fri and then scramble to get some votes together. So, either we do it or we don't, but I think everyone needs to make their opinion on the matter known ASAP.
VOTE Pro Name Reveal[/b]
Sorry if that's the wrong color - you get the idea.
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Day 1
Mar 17, 2008 17:01:42 GMT -5
Post by Hal Briston on Mar 17, 2008 17:01:42 GMT -5
Huh...I could've sworn I already had an "official" vote in on this. Ah well. brewha, I'm stealing your format:
VOTE Pro Name Reveal[/b]
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Hockey Monkey!
Borogrove
This is supposed to be a happy occasion. Let's not bicker over who killed who.
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Day 1
Mar 17, 2008 17:06:29 GMT -5
Post by Hockey Monkey! on Mar 17, 2008 17:06:29 GMT -5
I'm for trying something crazy. We are in an asylum afterall. I think a mass name claim could be a good thing here. I also agree that it needs to be done swiftly so we can move on to Bat hunting. Can someone come up with a random list generator from sports scores from today?
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Day 1
Mar 17, 2008 17:08:47 GMT -5
Post by tdpatriots12 on Mar 17, 2008 17:08:47 GMT -5
Sure enough. It seems to me that if there is a chance that scum would be forced to fake a name, then it's a very good thing for the town. Any faked name stands a chance of being someone else's name, and any one-for-one trade that brings about will be worth it (if it even comes to that -- might get lucky and nail scum first). I'm basically going to be restating and summarizing parts of my previous post here, but since I liked the metaphor, I'm rolling with it. storyteller's plan would identify the (at least seemingly) town roles regardless of what else happens with the scum's claims. So how does that leave the town for the rest of the game? (Here comes the promised metaphor) Playing chess with only pawns and minor pieces. I just don't think risking our 'big guns' on a risky attempt at bagging the Bat is wise. Perhaps proponents of it are overestimating our ability to identify and lynch scum based on their "names" alone. The one thing we know for certain is that Batman is scum. Anyone else, we have no guarantees. Robin, Commissioner Gordon, Chief O'Hara* -- any of them can state their real name and we don't know that they're scum. Batman must lie about this...we do know that he's scum. So you're basing your confidence in this plan on the assumption that Batman will post, " I'm Batman, please kill me." And the other scum will make something up or possibly towny, making the target obvious? If they all lie, how are we going to know which one is actually Batman? How do we even know which ones are lying, even? In the end we've given the scum an advantage in knowledge, they know who we are, but we still don't know who they are. They can start using the information as soon as the sun goes down. No, I don't like this plan. Vote against name reveal./the metaphor was a let-down //sounded much cooler in my head
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Day 1
Mar 17, 2008 17:17:44 GMT -5
Post by Boozahol Squid, P.I. on Mar 17, 2008 17:17:44 GMT -5
[/b] [/quote] Let me get my bud-nippers out and nip this in the bud. Use Blue and Bold to Vote Use Red and Bold to Unvote Use Green and Bold to ask me questions.Pick a different fucking color than these for your little damn ingame plottings.
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Day 1
Mar 17, 2008 17:22:42 GMT -5
Post by Rysto on Mar 17, 2008 17:22:42 GMT -5
There are 24 players, which means that we need 23 random numbers. There are 8 NBA games tonight, 7 tomorrow and 10 on Wednesday. We could use the combined scores from each game, and have the order set Wednesday night. Which could also use the number of points scored by individual teams, and get it done Tuesday night. I propose the latter option. I'm going to select games in the order shown on NBA.com, and always pick the away team first(I'm being as open as possible about this to ward off any concerns about any shenanigans). To select a player, we will take the number of points the team scored, divide by the number of remaining players, and add one to the remainder(we must add one because there is nobody at position 0). Here's the player list provided by Roosh: 1. HawkeyeOp 2. Koldanar 3. Hal Briston 4. Captain Klutz 5. zuma 6. Cookies 7. tdpatriots12 8. Brewha 9. Atarus 10. Drainbead 11. Kat 12. Diggitcamera 13. Storyteller 14. HockeyMonkey 15. NAF1138 16. The Dark Smurf 17. Kassia 18. Santo Rugger 19. CatinASuit 20. Rysto 21. Hoopyfrood 22. Ryjae 23. Molefan1981 24. Sinjin And here's the order we'll take the scores from: Monday, March 17Atlanta Washington Cleveland Orlando New York Knicks Indiana Charlotte Memphis Chicago New Orleans LA Clippers Minnesota Boston San Antonio Toronto Utah Tuesday, March 18Denver Detroit Miami Milwaukee New Jersey Chicago Boston Hopefully this is clear enough(I'd like to avoid another complaint to HR).
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Day 1
Mar 17, 2008 17:28:02 GMT -5
Post by Rysto on Mar 17, 2008 17:28:02 GMT -5
An example might clarify things. Suppose that Atlanta scores 91 points tonight. This is just an example. We divide 91 by 24 and get 19 as a remainder. Add one to that to get 20. I am player #20 on Roosh's list, so I would reveal first.
For the next selection, my name would be removed from the list and everybody below me would move up one position(Hoopyfrood would become #20, Ryjae would become #21, etc).
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Day 1
Mar 17, 2008 17:32:42 GMT -5
Post by Hal Briston on Mar 17, 2008 17:32:42 GMT -5
So you're basing your confidence in this plan on the assumption that Batman will post, " I'm Batman, please kill me." And the other scum will make something up or possibly towny, making the target obvious? Excepting the possibility that the Bat is the one who belongs in an asylum, no...I'm not assuming that will happen. What I'm hoping will happen is that Batman will claim "My name is [minor criminal X]". Then I'm hoping that Minor Criminal X will actually be in the game and will pipe up.
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Day 1
Mar 17, 2008 17:32:59 GMT -5
Post by Rysto on Mar 17, 2008 17:32:59 GMT -5
Oh, and finally, the fact that we're setting an order ahead of time should not be taken to mean that we're definitely doing the reveal. I don't want people to feel that I'm pushing anybody into this. My experience with YSI tells me that we should get this over and done with quickly, whether we reveal or not. I don't want this still going on near the deadline.
I vote in favour of the reveal
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Day 1
Mar 17, 2008 17:34:58 GMT -5
Post by Pollux Oil on Mar 17, 2008 17:34:58 GMT -5
I think my opinions have mostly been covered already on the mass name claim, but I'll go ahead and say my piece anyway.
Pro-mass name claim: If we do it now, Day One, the scum don't have time to coordinate and possibly plan out how to deal with their name claims. Whatever they do toDay they have to stick by. Furthermore, if we catch a name duplicate we supposedly have a scum in hand at the off-set and we'll theoretically have a successful lynch by Day Two.
Anti-mass name claim: By name claiming, we give the scum the names of the entire town, as well as any third party people that may or may not be waiting in the wings. Furthermore, we don't know that the Batfriends don't already have a secret alter ego to hide amongst the baddies anyway. (The mods may have supplied all the good guys with bad guy aliases, we don't know this for certain.) On the same wavelength, maybe some bad guys have teamed up with Batman anyway.
Finally, for all we know there are special powers out there that are activated if person X finds person Y. Take a look at Firefly. If we had mass name-claimed day one, sure those people looking for River Tam would have known where to look. But so would have the scummy scum, and as soon as River had poked her little head out she would have had a bullet in the brain.
Also, I'm not about metagaming and trying to outguess the mods here, but do you remember who was really pro name-claiming and how it was pro-town in Firefly? Yeah, that's right, Roosh was. Just saying.
Anyway, the point is I'm pretty sure the entire basis of the idea of a mass name claim is that there's a percentage chance we could trip up a scum or two into duplicate names. I don't think that percentage chance is worthwhile, because if we do the mass name claim and come up with bupkiss, then the scum and any possible third parties have an advantage while we're basically back at square one.
Vote against mass name claim
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Day 1
Mar 17, 2008 17:38:24 GMT -5
Post by diggitcamara on Mar 17, 2008 17:38:24 GMT -5
Oh, and finally, the fact that we're setting an order ahead of time should not be taken to mean that we're definitely doing the reveal. I don't want people to feel that I'm pushing anybody into this. My experience with YSI tells me that we should get this over and done with quickly, whether we reveal or not. I don't want this still going on near the deadline. I vote in favour of the reveal Hey! purple is taken for the nay-sayers! Pick your own d... color!
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Day 1
Mar 17, 2008 18:11:06 GMT -5
Post by Drain Bead on Mar 17, 2008 18:11:06 GMT -5
The point isn't necessarily that scum may or may not have the agility to claim fake names. The point is how does story know that the lesser scum can claim their real names? The quote was "Every other scum can claim his or her real name safely." How, at this point in Day One, can he make that statement? It's great if they can't, gut how does story speak with such certainty on the issue? The one thing we know for certain is that Batman is scum. Anyone else, we have no guarantees. Robin, Commissioner Gordon, Chief O'Hara* -- any of them can state their real name and we don't know that they're scum. Batman must lie about this...we do know that he's scum. *Of course, if all three of them revealed and said they all were town, I think I might be inclined to disbelieve at least some of them...Okay, THAT makes sense. Sometimes (especially now) I need things spelled out for me. For some reason I just assumed it was us versus the good guys. I don't know much about the verse, however, I do know that I'm a gad guy. What the hell. Vote for the Name Reveal. Might as well try shaking things up.
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Day 1
Mar 17, 2008 18:33:38 GMT -5
Post by NAF1138 on Mar 17, 2008 18:33:38 GMT -5
Honestly, if I was Batman, I would have thought up a good new name by now. Certainly by the end of the Day tomorrow.
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Santo Rugger
Mome Rath
The Obviously Innocent Townie
The Rugger formerly known as Pygmy[on:BYAHH!][of:BYAHH?]
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Day 1
Mar 17, 2008 18:37:44 GMT -5
Post by Santo Rugger on Mar 17, 2008 18:37:44 GMT -5
[oog]Score one for the good guys... err, bad guys? My buddy called me and asked me to feed his dog because he was going to stay in Abq an extra day, so he was able to bring my laptop charger for me today.[/oog]
My biggest problem with the name reveal is that I think the scum will be able to use the information more quickly than we can. However, it'll help us more in the endgame. One problem that town tends to have in these games is that they start to get bogged down if they don't catch scum right away, and their power roles start getting picked off*. Like I said earlier, it'll help us in the endgame, but I'm not sure if we'll get that far if the scum start picking off our most powerful roles right away.
*Written in third person because I'm referring to past, non current games.
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Gir!
FGM
EVIL Demon Goddess Mod
What? Kat is sweet and innocent!
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Day 1
Mar 17, 2008 18:56:20 GMT -5
Post by Gir! on Mar 17, 2008 18:56:20 GMT -5
I'm not sure about the name-claim idea right now. My reasons have already been mentioned by other people, but here they are from me anyway: When me and NAF ran Firefly, we switched around certain goodguy and badguy roles. We also made a point of giving the two roles that couldn't possibly be Town (the Hand of Blue guys) fake roleclaims. I very much doubt Roosh and Dio wouldn't have given at least Batman a fake roleclaim. On top of that, if scum were allowed to strategize on Night Zero, and if even one of the scum played or followed Firefly, there's no way that the issue wouldn't have come up and been addressed already.
Plus, even if the Firefly gang had nameclaimed and not based any decisions on the names, Town would've lost River the first night she poked her head out, and probably lost Simon and another major role the first night.
I think if we do mass nameclaim, we should definitely do it Day One, in case there was no Night Zero scum strategy or they somehow didn't think of it. I'll weigh in with a vote thingy after I reread the pro-claiming arguments again and figure out of they outweigh the anti-claiming.
Oh, and considering that Night lasts until Sunday no matter when Day ends, I think we should absolutely not put anyone at 50%+1 until we're within 24 hours of the deadline, to prevent the Bat-people from getting extra time.
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Day 1
Mar 17, 2008 18:57:01 GMT -5
Post by Drain Bead on Mar 17, 2008 18:57:01 GMT -5
One question. This game is a completely closed setup...were we assured that there's no recruitment in it? If there's recruitment, this mass claim isn't as useful as I'd thought. I can't rememger seeing anything about recruitment...
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Day 1
Mar 17, 2008 19:01:54 GMT -5
Post by storyteller0910 on Mar 17, 2008 19:01:54 GMT -5
The point isn't necessarily that scum may or may not have the agility to claim fake names. The point is how does story know that the lesser scum can claim their real names? The quote was "Every other scum can claim his or her real name safely." How, at this point in Day One, can he make that statement? It's great if they can't, gut how does story speak with such certainty on the issue? Of all the possible character names that might be in this game, only one - Batman - has been definitively associated with a scum role by the mods. Any other name - The Joker, Robin, Commissioner Gordon, Poison Ivy, Harley Quinn, Bane, Top Dog, The Chia Bingo Manager - is exactly as likely to be scum as Town. Thus, any of those players, if scum, can claim their true name with confidence. This seems to me to be self-evident, and it puzzles me that you're worked up about it. What's the confusion?
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Day 1
Mar 17, 2008 19:04:07 GMT -5
Post by Rysto on Mar 17, 2008 19:04:07 GMT -5
One question. This game is a completely closed setup...were we assured that there's no recruitment in it? If there's recruitment, this mass claim isn't as useful as I'd thought. I can't rememger seeing anything about recruitment... Quoth Diomedes:
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Day 1
Mar 17, 2008 19:04:55 GMT -5
Post by Holy Moley! on Mar 17, 2008 19:04:55 GMT -5
This post by atarus:
"Furthermore, we don't know that the Batfriends don't already have a secret alter ego to hide amongst the baddies anyway. (The mods may have supplied all the good guys with bad guy aliases, we don't know this for certain.)"
Now I've come up with so many reasons why this is a seriously bad idea that I really didn't expect someone to come up with something so simple and logical as that.
But there's a precedent for it. The last time I was a wolf was in "Spies 2". I was selected as wolf by random lottery at the end of the first day. Everybody knew that the number "37" was chosen by the person who'd become the wolf. I, obviously, was the person who'd chosen it. So to stop moves like this, the host gave me a false number - 7 - that nobody else had chosen. That way, if everybody shared the lottery numbers that they'd picked, I'd have an "innocent" one and nobody would be any the wiser.
Anybody want to bet against the hosts anticipating this situation and doing exactly the same thing with player names?
And what exactly happens when players start refusing to give out their names, which is exactly what I'm considering doing right now?
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Day 1
Mar 17, 2008 19:06:15 GMT -5
Post by storyteller0910 on Mar 17, 2008 19:06:15 GMT -5
...and I should read the whole thread before responding. Sorry, drain.
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Day 1
Mar 17, 2008 19:09:31 GMT -5
Post by Holy Moley! on Mar 17, 2008 19:09:31 GMT -5
I'm not sure about the name-claim idea right now. My reasons have already been mentioned by other people, but here they are from me anyway: When me and NAF ran Firefly, we switched around certain goodguy and badguy roles. We also made a point of giving the two roles that couldn't possibly be Town (the Hand of Blue guys) fake roleclaims. I very much doubt Roosh and Dio wouldn't have given at least Batman a fake roleclaim. On top of that, if scum were allowed to strategize on Night Zero, and if even one of the scum played or followed Firefly, there's no way that the issue wouldn't have come up and been addressed already. Count me down as never even having heard of Firefly, on account of I'm new to this board. But that makes two people - me and Kat - who've come up with examples of hosts providing wolves with fake information in order to stop stuff like this from giving them away instantly. I'm going to change my opinion from the post above. I now think that the majority of wolves most likely are supporting this plan, that they already have fake names to claim provided by the hosts, and that you guys are playing right into their hands by giving out what amounts to a HUGE amount of information for no return whatsoever.
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Day 1
Mar 17, 2008 19:15:36 GMT -5
Post by storyteller0910 on Mar 17, 2008 19:15:36 GMT -5
This post by atarus: "Furthermore, we don't know that the Batfriends don't already have a secret alter ego to hide amongst the baddies anyway. (The mods may have supplied all the good guys with bad guy aliases, we don't know this for certain.)" Now I've come up with so many reasons why this is a seriously bad idea that I really didn't expect someone to come up with something so simple and logical as that. But there's a precedent for it. The last time I was a wolf was in "Spies 2". I was selected as wolf by random lottery at the end of the first day. Everybody knew that the number "37" was chosen by the person who'd become the wolf. I, obviously, was the person who'd chosen it. So to stop moves like this, the host gave me a false number - 7 - that nobody else had chosen. That way, if everybody shared the lottery numbers that they'd picked, I'd have an "innocent" one and nobody would be any the wiser. Anybody want to bet against the hosts anticipating this situation and doing exactly the same thing with player names? Here's what's interesting to me. Let's see what others think. You are quick to jump on this idea by atarus - that the mods would have made sure that Batman et al had fake claims on which to fall back. In short: you seem to believe very firmly that the mods wouldn't have allowed names alone to identify scum. OK. Fine. But the crux of your opposition to my plan is your contention that the scum will be able to identify the Town's best power roles from their names alone. So either: (1) You believe that the mods are essentially pro-scum, and set up the game so that the powerful good guys are easily identified from their names but the bad guys are not; or (2) You are using inconsistent reasoning. Since I don't believe #1 is true and I don't think you do either... well, you can probably guess where I'm going with this. Feh. Nothing. What are we going to do? We're going to bend over and take it.
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Day 1
Mar 17, 2008 19:23:04 GMT -5
Post by tdpatriots12 on Mar 17, 2008 19:23:04 GMT -5
But the crux of your opposition to my plan is your contention that the scum will be able to identify the Town's best power roles from their names alone. Because the scum will be lying? Town A: "I'm the Penguin." Scum A: "I'm Minor Bad Guy 1" Town B: "I'm Minor Bad Guy 2" Scum B: "I'm Minor Bad Guy 3" Which one is easiest to target for a swift death? Yes, I know if two people say they're the Penguin, that's different.
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